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Could a Vanilla WoW clone out do MoP?

24

Comments

  • DeniZgDeniZg ZagrebPosts: 669Member Uncommon

    I've played WoW from vanilla to mid WotLK on PVP server and it was the best gaming time I've ever had. Tried vanilla and TBC servers recently, but couldn't get past first ciuple of levels, due to boring and slow combat.

    My 0.02$ - TBC WoW could work easily IMHO, but with some changes:

    • combat has to be faster, no more whacking on a mob for half a minute
    • PVP has to be balanced while battlegrounds and arena gear has to be normalized. E.g. you would still get better and prettier gear from PVP, but that gear would not be usable in Arena and BG, but in PVE and open world PVP.
  • delete5230delete5230 Posts: 2,958Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by expresso
    Originally posted by Antiquated
    Originally posted by Dragonantis
    Who wants an MMO that would never evolve?

    Every UO and EQ player who ever lived? Every SWG player who complained about NGE, DAoC player who complained about ToA, WoW player who complained about WOTLK...

    I could go on, the evidence just surrounds us here each and every day.

    Is this a trick question, or a quiz?

    But those people are the vocal minority who don't realy know what they're asking for, they'll hate vanillia they just dont know it yet.

    Fro example;

    I remember in vanillia WoW I would see a chest in a small enemy camp, I would do anything to get to that chest cus im my mind that could be the one chest with some ultra rare items in when in reality it had some health pots and some wool.  Not long after I cared not for the chests cus I knew what they were about.  On vanillia server I am still going to skip the chests cus I still know what they're about.   Again it's the felling not the experience people are craving, and you cannot get that feeling back without a lobotomy.

    But on the flip side, you get community back and a game that is 50% harder, many quest are requiring two or more and that's how you make friends. Remember that cave of Orcs you need to go in?...Well ask someone in that zone, don't by shy. Shy is an illusion that can be overcome. I for one and most everyone will come running if we get that local spam " please help me " players will come running.  Guess what, in most cases you now have another friend to add to your list. I know I'm experience that great feeling right now, however I can't talk about it here. Anyway many people are shy, but a Great many are not and like to play an mmo as it was intended to play.

    Now we would not be having this discussion or topic if WoW had not changed this formula and simply added content. Or at least if we had one, JUST ONE mmo that plays like an mmo.

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,943Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DeniZg

    I've played WoW from vanilla to mid WotLK on PVP server and it was the best gaming time I've ever had. Tried vanilla and TBC servers recently, but couldn't get past first ciuple of levels, due to boring and slow combat.

    My 0.02$ - TBC WoW could work easily IMHO, but with some changes:

    • combat has to be faster, no more whacking on a mob for half a minute
    • PVP has to be balanced while battlegrounds and arena gear has to be normalized. E.g. you would still get better and prettier gear from PVP, but that gear would not be usable in Arena and BG, but in PVE and open world PVP.

    i have to disagree bigtime, tbc speed is fine, killnig faster means zerging in other words, means content becomes meanlingless (il just go on ahead and 2 shot everything.  saying I want to play tbc, but oh I want it to change to play like wotlk or mop etc is daft, play those games if you want that style, if yuo want tbc style play tbc etc.  incidently on a fixed tbc server (or any other fixed themepark) it is easy to balance pvp - because there is not a new tier every 3 months, interesting eh :)

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • kitaradkitarad RomePosts: 1,744Member Uncommon
    For about a week may be but then you will have all the experience since 2004 in other games to come spoil stuff. It does not work you can never go back.

    image

  • TheHavokTheHavok San Jose, CAPosts: 2,398Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by expresso
    OP - It's not the content, systems or mechanics of Vanilla you crave its the feeling you had while playing vanillia when it was all fresh and new - you'll never get that back even with vanillia servers.

    ^This.

    Because if you played every expansion since Vanilla, you will see how things have actually improved over time.  MOP is superior to Vanilla in every category, the only exception being world pvp raids - its just that Vanilla was our first dive into WoW and its dear to everybody's heart.

    Also: A lot of MMOs offer an option to play the 'vanilla' version.  Everquest has project '99, SWG has SWGEMU, and WoW has multiple Vanilla private servers.  People don't flood to these private servers because they already ate up all the content back in 2004-2006!

  • AntiquatedAntiquated Oak Brook, MIPosts: 673Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by expresso

    But those people are the vocal minority who don't realy know what they're asking for, they'll hate vanillia they just dont know it yet.

    Fro example;

    I remember in vanillia WoW I would see a chest in a small enemy camp, I would do anything to get to that chest cus im my mind that could be the one chest with some ultra rare items in when in reality it had some health pots and some wool.  Not long after I cared not for the chests cus I knew what they were about.  On vanillia server I am still going to skip the chests cus I still know what they're about.   Again it's the felling not the experience people are craving, and you cannot get that feeling back without a lobotomy.

    Oh, I firmly believe that reactionaries should be forced to sleep in the beds they make.

    To me, the return of "Vanilla" WoW also includes a necessary return to Vanilla server crashes, Vanilla incomplete classes, Vanilla bugs, virtually useless warlocks, druids and one-spec shaman...stunlocks, broken Charge, vanishing boats, five-dismount griffon routes, etc.

    Money where your mouth is, guys. Accepting the bad as well as the good is part of this deal.

    And when it doesn't work, because that "new game feeling" came more from the people you were playing with (and genuine at-the-time novelty), instead of the gane systems?

    Maybe you'll learn the same lesson players as those "classic" servers already learned in other games.

    There is no magic bullet.

  • elockeelocke Manassas, VAPosts: 4,205Member Uncommon
    Nope.  I'm not afraid of change.  That being said, do I wish the game gave me the "feeling" that BC did?  Yes.  Will that happen?  Not sure, probably not.  I still like the game and love watching it grow and evolve but I realize that what I "felt" then is just that, a feeling.  One that comes from something being new.  What I want to see is a new world discovered through one of those portals in the BC zones that takes us to a whole new world with new enemies(third faction anyone?) and housing and a new class or 2 and so on.
    image
  • MukeMuke BredaPosts: 2,172Member Uncommon

    to me the downside was catering to every player, not the casuals but giving all mounts to everyone, no wpvp anymore because of flying mounts, meeting stones ruined the dangerous trip to enemy territory dungeons.

    It's more World of Instances now...
    + it's too many of everything now, too many battlegrounds, the game was more fun with less content, now you see empty zones because 99% is located in Little Tokyo.

    "going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  • AntiquatedAntiquated Oak Brook, MIPosts: 673Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Muke
    ...empty zones because 99% is located in Little Tokyo.

    They repeated the Dalaran mistake, again? Glad I gave it a pass.

  • WraithoneWraithone Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 3,593Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Antiquated
    Originally posted by Dragonantis
    Who wants an MMO that would never evolve?

    Every UO and EQ player who ever lived? Every SWG player who complained about NGE, DAoC player who complained about ToA, WoW player who complained about WOTLK...

    I could go on, the evidence just surrounds us here each and every day.

    Is this a trick question, or a quiz?

    Every? I played UO (it was one of my first MMO games). I also played SWG (Vir wave to dear old Smed... ^^). I have no problem with "evolution" just so long as its not Ghostcrawler running it... ^^  Some games have grown better with age.  Others, not so much.

  • LugorsLugors EarthPosts: 180Member Uncommon

    To answer the orginal question, no, it could not.

    To address the points in a large sense.  It seems there is certain nostogia for gameplay that enables ganking and griefing other players.  Vanilla WoW enabled that behavior to a certain degree, and has evolved away from it in the ensuing years.  If that type of gameplay is what you crave, then certainly WoW has gone away from it.

    In every other conceiveable manner, WoW has remained a moving target and added more "stuff," streamlined mechanics and become more accessable as a whole.  I for one would not want to return to: no mounts in the cities, completely imbalanced single server PvP battlegrounds, no dual specializations, no inventory magement of pets/mounts/keys etc.

     

  • AntiquatedAntiquated Oak Brook, MIPosts: 673Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Wraithone
      Some games have grown better with age.  Others, not so much.
     

    That would make an interesting topic, all by itself.

    List the game(s) you believe have only grown better with age.

     

    Why are you (or are you not) playing it/them right now?

  • WorfiWorfi RijekaPosts: 16Member

    Again this. 

    Do you know there are now players who wish to have Cataclysam servers?

    It's like this. When you start playing this game was new, you created social connections, things you like to do. Than expansion come and lot of players didn't like to do new leveling and new gear grind. It were now old. Doing new raids again give you nostaliga about old ones who were better for you because they were your first expirience. Now you realizing you are starting "new gear grind". And some of players who played with you quit the game.

    That are reasons why people want vanila, tbc, wotlok etc. servers. They want to create that first exerience again and can't accept it's gone, forever. Which version of "old server" they want is most often the time when they start playing the game.

    You can argue about some old featurs, but there are all still here, expanded and patched with a lot of new content. In my personal opinion game is now better than ever. The majority of problems are about server population, ratio and community on some servers.

    With questing 85-90, dailys, world bosses etc. there is a lot of iniciative for players to be in Pandarian areas so that open world PvP is viable. But lot servers are one sided or players dont want to pvp. It's for player to make or find community who he like and server he like. There are RP servers and guild who still don't use dungeon finder but prefer to create their own groups and travel to dungeon and/or use meeting stones. Or players and guilds who don't do LFR but only normal and heroic raids. Maybe now there are not players standing in front of low level dungeons but there are still players in front of new raids. 

    World is now so much larger than vanila so you can't expect to see old areas full of people but you can see that in Pandaria. It's an MMO. It's all about people with who you play. For sure there are some big class changes come from years and proffesion changes but imho on better. You can argue basically only about that.

    With all new implementet systems and options game now have more than ever options, content and things to do for all kind of players while leveling and on end game. Except maybe for those players who dont like vertical gear progession. But this game si not for them from start.

  • WraithoneWraithone Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 3,593Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Antiquated
    Originally posted by Wraithone
      Some games have grown better with age.  Others, not so much.
     

    That would make an interesting topic, all by itself.

    List the game(s) you believe have only grown better with age.

     

    Why are you (or are you not) playing it/them right now?

    Two come to mind. Asherons Call (that was my second game). It evolved into a much better game, but sadly, the graphics are WAY too dated, and I'm not interested in going back to a corpse run game at this point.  But I very much enjoyed the two years I played it.

    Anarchy Online. It pretty much had to get better, as it was almost totally unplayable the first few weeks. ^^  I'm still amazed to this day, that Funcom managed to pull out of the death dive that game was in.  But again, its very dated, and well past its use by date.

    Honorable mention goes to Horizons (now Istaria). It went from a badly designed, poorly coded game, to one that is obvious that its current Dev's and core players love.  It has one of the most indept crafting systems I've seen in many years.

    But again, its well past its use by date.  Over the last few years I've become a gaming nomad. I play what ever game looks entertaining, as long as its entertaining, and then move on to something else.

  • Clypto75Clypto75 Nevada, MOPosts: 68Member
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Wraithone
    Originally posted by Isturi

    I truly believe that if a gaming company made a blatant vanilla WoW clone or even a WoW clone with just the BC xpac in the game it would actually have more numbers then MoP.

    Why? Simple players and millions of players agree strongly that cata was prob the worst xpac many would also agree that WotLK is not much better and millions agree just let the dropping number speak for themselves that MoP is a desperate attempt to capture the vanilla feel but failing simple because of all the blotch up patches that Blizz gave WoW since BC the LFG tool LFR tool.... sigh just bout every patch from BC onward basically has damaged WoW. With this being said If a gaming company made a blatant WoW clone strictly Vanilla or with most of BC mixed in I think that they would rake in millions of players.

    Here is how it should be done:

    Have three factions of course and just call theme the red vs blue vs (insert color here) sides.

    Bring back the original 40 man raid. (I think that WS will find this feature to be very attractive with players. )

    Balance out PVP bring it back to vanilla game play were it took skill to be good at bg not just armor set buff and facerolling.

    Balance out PVE can anyone say CC anymore.

    Forget about the first two added races just keep it simple Orcs, Humans and elves taken from statement one a three way faction will be brilliant. have the elves your natural faction and let them be allowed into either side's city with no worries of getting ganked so basically a natural faction.

    World bosses will automatically flag your faction. Yes if you want that highest tier loot from a world boss then you must flagged and earn it properly.

    Continue with tier upgrades but here is the trick have a BT or a Kara raid which of course if you want to raid you must get attuned for it. Yes bring back the atonement  chain quest again. Now to keep the game interesting so once a guild beats the toughest raid in the game will to be simply change up the bosses keep the instance with the same lay out but change the bosses moves around. Or better yet let a REAL person play the boss and not let it be just a mechanical boss keep the players guessing. Then as a reward up the tier loot that way if a guild can truly beet a boss encounter this way.

    And going back to open world pvp have top tier drops for a Hala type open world pvp setting as to every member of the raiding pvp team gets gear only if they keep their faction hold on a Hala type take over for lets say if they can keep Hala in their favor for a time limit. For instance if a guild of opposite faction who wishes to take over Hala will not only have to defeat the incredibly hard guards with incredibly high health to boot make the Hala guards the hardest npc in the game to beet but they cant solo it just dropping bombs on it and expect a win but it has to be a legit 10 man or more Hala raid for the highest tier to drop. Make since?

    And yes bring back the open world raiding of xrds or south shore or whatever but just for the fun of it. Or if a successful raid on a low lvl village let that faction who did this successfully take control of that small town or place or whatever it is they decided to raid against.

    Tell me what you think of these idea's for a vanilla Clone of WoW.

    Some how, I suspect your rose colored glasses are obstructing your vision... ^^  I've been in WoW since late beta. I currently have two 90's and seven 85's.  Many of the things you consider a positive, would make me not even bother with such a game. Just two would be;  being flagged when fighting world bosses, and the open world ganking that went on in the first year to 18 months.

    Having leveled to 60 on US realm deathwing (PvP) I'm painfully familiar with what goes on with such antics.  Corpse camping, roaming gank packs and large groups camping the entry portals of the dungeons.  We used to have to bring in two or three parties worth of players, just so some of our lower levels could get into the dungeons.

    I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I see rather little in your list that would recommend such a game to me.  Given the change in demographics over the years, I suspect such a game would be a narrow niche.

    All the things I loved about the PVP servers (Kel Thuzad) in vanilla WOW, and one of the reasons why I find the game not worth playing anymore. image

    Geez, KT was so brutal. Loved it, cant seem to find anything like it. :(

  • AntiquatedAntiquated Oak Brook, MIPosts: 673Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Wraithone

    Two come to mind. Asherons Call (that was my second game). It evolved into a much better game, but sadly, the graphics are WAY too dated, and I'm not interested in going back to a corpse run game at this point.  But I very much enjoyed the two years I played it.

    Anarchy Online. It pretty much had to get better, as it was almost totally unplayable the first few weeks. ^^  I'm still amazed to this day, that Funcom managed to pull out of the death dive that game was in.  But again, its very dated, and well past its use by date.

    Honorable mention goes to Horizons (now Istaria). It went from a badly designed, poorly coded game, to one that is obvious that its current Dev's and core players love.  It has one of the most indept crafting systems I've seen in many years.

    But again, its well past its use by date.  Over the last few years I've become a gaming nomad. I play what ever game looks entertaining, as long as its entertaining, and then move on to something else.

    So, "very dated" is the verdict in all three cases, paraphased as..."not better"...right?

    "Better", to me, would tend to indicate something you're more willing to play, right now.

    If dated graphics are enough to chase you back into the market? Not enough better to overcome "been there, done that"?

  • ComafComaf Chicago, ILPosts: 1,154Member Common
    Originally posted by Dragonantis
    Who wants an MMO that would never evolve?

    What is your definition of evolving?  Evolution does not always correlate to something that is functional or "fun" to play.  The devs for WoW had an explosion on their hands that they were well aware would occur (at least in part) due to their Chinese numbers being already predicted as astronomical.

     

    Recall that China has a 24x7 days a week show dedicated (a channel rather) to the RPG WoW games.  Vivindi/Blizzard could have gotten fat just off of their overseas numbers - ala South Korea, Taiwan, and so forth.  America was just the icing on the cake.  This might explain why panda bears are now rampant in WoW (lol).

     

    Anyway - the developers admit in a recent interview posted on these forums that there were aspects of Vanilla that people enjoyed and that there is an intent to regain some of that.

     

    I used to walk into Stormwind and see a medieval fantasy city.  I go there now, and there's flying reindeer, tiny muppet pets following people in gear that comes with a half dozen strobe lights, and so forth.  It's like Disney took over the franchise - and not in a good (super heroes) sort of way.

     

    The idea of evolution in this industry to (a) increase content (b) reach more player types (c) entice former players to return and most importantly (d) to offer a fun gaming experience.

    Unfortunately, (b) has a way of conflicting with (d).

     

     

    image
  • WraithoneWraithone Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 3,593Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Antiquated
    Originally posted by Wraithone

    Two come to mind. Asherons Call (that was my second game). It evolved into a much better game, but sadly, the graphics are WAY too dated, and I'm not interested in going back to a corpse run game at this point.  But I very much enjoyed the two years I played it.

    Anarchy Online. It pretty much had to get better, as it was almost totally unplayable the first few weeks. ^^  I'm still amazed to this day, that Funcom managed to pull out of the death dive that game was in.  But again, its very dated, and well past its use by date.

    Honorable mention goes to Horizons (now Istaria). It went from a badly designed, poorly coded game, to one that is obvious that its current Dev's and core players love.  It has one of the most indept crafting systems I've seen in many years.

    But again, its well past its use by date.  Over the last few years I've become a gaming nomad. I play what ever game looks entertaining, as long as its entertaining, and then move on to something else.

    So, "very dated" is the verdict in all three cases, paraphased as..."not better"...right?

    "Better", to me, would tend to indicate something you're more willing to play, right now.

    If dated graphics are enough to chase you back into the market? Not enough better to overcome "been there, done that"?

    Dated now.  They become better games, than they started out as.  Keep in mind that "better" is very much a subjective, and covers not just the game and its perception, but also the person in question.  I've played WoW the longest of any game (I started in late beta), and end up going back to it when they have expansions and major content additions.  But once I've played what ever is new, I go play something else.

    EVE online was my second longest. I spent almost six years in the game. But I left when CCP started taking the game in a direction I didn't agree with.   My main focus these days is the combat system. Followed by graphics and lore (if any).  Everyone has a different combination of factors.

  • doodphacedoodphace Vancouver, BCPosts: 1,815Member
    Something you  guys seem to always turn a blind eye to, Endgame is what keeps players playing (pure example  the huge drop off in active GW2 players). WoW had terrible endgame at launch (compared to today). All these "WoW clones" that keep failing, fail because they lack endgame content...not because they are "themeparks"... People need a "carrot on a stick", thats the point of themepark MMOs....otherwise there is no insentive to keep playing (a la Gw2).
  • Alber_gamerAlber_gamer RomePosts: 557Member Uncommon

    Some people keep living in 2006 it seems. The game industry advances, incase you haven't noticed. People enjoy different things now than then because some themes and mechanics have been exhausted to oblivion. Vanilla WoW now would be an utter failure. It was a success in the right place, at the right time.

     

    Unless you are trying to run a veiled campaign to get people interested in Wildstar. Which again, would have worked in 2006, not 2013.

    My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.

  • BlasphimBlasphim San Diego, CAPosts: 349Member Common

    WoW was a damn freak of nature, hell it still is. Blizz could in no way duplicate the perfect storm of WoW's launch, I don't think anyone could in todays market. It was awesome. But that was 8-9 years ago. Now, today, if I bought a game that was a clone of wow, an exact carbon copy of classic at release, I would play about 2 weeks, and call it done. I couldn't handle the bugs, the crashes, the restarts, the unfinished zones that they thought nobody would get to so quick, the poor quest designs, the crappy quest rewards (Hey there hero, I know you just finished traveling back and forth between the land masses five times now, killed at least half the population of gnolls and ogres, made three deliveries from the same area to the same guy, who could have just asked you to get all three those items at once, and thwarted the plans of an entire evil dragon flight, now here's your cloth boots with agi and spirit....what's that, you're a warrior...well...sorry, I just have cloth with agi and spirit).

    Oh wait, you want TBC in there too...ahh okay, so you want to do away even more with world pvp, cause that's when they launched pole dancing (sorry arena lovers, call it like I see it). Harder quests? Not even close. I two manned just about every damn zone in the outlands, and all of its 5 man quests with my bro playing a druid healer and myself playing a prot warrior. And I say just about cause for some of it, it didn't require us to group. We had to have a GM reset a quest mob in Netherstorm, so we could do the quest (a 5 man quest mind you) and he watched us do it. Afterward he whispered us and said that was impressive and had no idea that could be completed with just 2 players.

    That's also when they introduced the daily quest grind for reps, and flying mounts. You know, two of the things that many players say helped "ruin" the game. TBC is also when they did away with the 40 man raid, which is what you say you want to bring back. Well which is it, you want the greatness of a 40 man, or the greatness of Kara, SSC, TK, Gruul, MGT, BT, SW, ZA? And does that mean you want to do away with AQ 20, ZG?

    Three factions of course, and forget the the two added races in BC? Factions in a minute, lets hit the races first, so you don't want two additional races in the game...okay, cool, I can see that. Does that mean you don't want all classes available to all as well, cause that's how they were introduced. Add to that you only want to have three races in the game period...well now you're not sounding like classic wow at all. Orcs, Humans, and Elves. Not much variety there my friend, and how are you going to balance that...all classes to all? Ok, but I fear that you're going to lose a lot of players that love to play their Tauren shammies, or Dwarf warriors. In truth, it's this part that makes me once again think you really don't want a clone of classic/TBC wow at all.

    Continue with tier progression for pve gear, but use the same raids, just with different bosses? That will get old fast, even faster than always having some sort of troll raid/dungeon in every damn expac. I'm sorry, but I don't think that will work, I know for myself it wouldn't. That idea is just flawed in my opinion.

    I don't think you really want a wow clone at all. I think you want a game with some features you think would be nice, set in some fantasy setting, or something, but whatever it is, it doesn't sound much like wow to me.

  • OberholzerOberholzer Hasbrouck Heights, NJPosts: 498Member
    I don't see a clone doing what Vanilla did, WoW caught lightning in a bottle and I don't see anything like that happening again. I'd never say never but it jut doesn't seem likely.  
  • vmopedvmoped Athens, GAPosts: 1,708Member
    Originally posted by OgreRaper
    I doubt it. Though if Blizz releases a classic server, I would resub to WoW.

    Completely agree mate.

    Cheers!

    MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S

  • KareliaKarelia HeraklionPosts: 668Member
    Originally posted by Oberholzer
    I don't see a clone doing what Vanilla did, WoW caught lightning in a bottle and I don't see anything like that happening again. I'd never say never but it jut doesn't seem likely.  

     

    agree 100%

  • kabitoshinkabitoshin Posts: 758Member Uncommon
    All the Vanilla WoW talk needs to be put to rest. I'm glad i experienced, and had the best time in a game I'll probably have. Just accept that there may never be another game to give that feeling back. If I was to go back I would not have the same friends nor guild back that made the experience that it was. I still play the game and with 1 friend I known since vanilla, we run old content and just reminisce about the good times we've had.
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