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Mac Gamers

Set_in_InkSet_in_Ink Member Posts: 48
in Camelot Unchained

This thread is mainly to gauge early interest in a Mac client for CU.  Is there enough support from Mac users to justify CES spending the time, money, and effort into creating a Mac version of this game?

 

 

'I think that there are certain crimes which the law cannot touch, and which therefore, to some extent, justify private revenge.' -Sherlock Holmes

Comments

  • drakon3drakon3 Member Posts: 114

    Nope.  It is not worth the time and resources for CSE.  If MAC held even 25%-30% of the desktop OS market a case could be made.  According to wikipedia MAC currently holds about 7% share of the market. 

  • Plastic-MetalPlastic-Metal Member Posts: 405

    Great idea.

    I have both a windows based computer and a macbook pro, which is also capable of bootcamping into windows mode.  It would be awesome to expose additional customers to Camelot Unchained, but unfortunately, it would probably be better if they focused on just a windows client and mac as a stretch goal.  I'm not sure the statistics, but I do know mac users versus windows users is extremely low (somewhere between 5-10% compared to window based users) in almost all games.

    Is it too late to add a poll?

    My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

    image

  • Set_in_InkSet_in_Ink Member Posts: 48
    Originally posted by Plastic-Metal

    Great idea.

    I have both a windows based computer and a macbook pro, which is also capable of bootcamping into windows mode.  It would be awesome to expose additional customers to Camelot Unchained, but unfortunately, it would probably be better if they focused on just a windows client and mac as a stretch goal.  I'm not sure the statistics, but I do know mac users versus windows users is extremely low (somewhere between 5-10% compared to window based users) in almost all games.

    Is it too late to add a poll?

    I had considered adding a poll originally, but decided against doing so.  After reading your post asking for one, I have edited the post to include one that I hope contains no bias.

    'I think that there are certain crimes which the law cannot touch, and which therefore, to some extent, justify private revenge.' -Sherlock Holmes

  • drakon3drakon3 Member Posts: 114

    There is no bias in the poll itself, however the bias comes from the fact that I would imagine MAC gamers would be more likely to click on this thread.

     

    However, lets throw some numbers out there.  I'm going to round numbers a bit for easy math.  Lets assume WoW has 10m subs at $15 a month.  Let's also assume that it has 7% MAC gamers.  I personally feel the perctange of MAC gamers is a lot lower than the 7% general market share they have as MAC has never been targeted directly at gamers.

     

    10,000,000 subs x .07 (7%) = 700,000 MAC subs

    700,000 MAC subs x $15 a month = $10,500,000 a month for Blizzard from MAC gamers

     

    CU with its substantially lower subs target and its assumed lower price point means a LOT less money from MAC gamers.

  • RaunuRaunu Member UncommonPosts: 480
    Originally posted by drakon3

    There is no bias in the poll itself, however the bias comes from the fact that I would imagine MAC gamers would be more likely to click on this thread.

     

    However, lets throw some numbers out there.  I'm going to round numbers a bit for easy math.  Lets assume WoW has 10m subs at $15 a month.  Let's also assume that it has 7% MAC gamers.  I personally feel the perctange of MAC gamers is a lot lower than the 7% general market share they have as MAC has never been targeted directly at gamers.

     

    10,000,000 subs x .07 (7%) = 700,000 MAC subs

    700,000 MAC subs x $15 a month = $10,500,000 a month for Blizzard from MAC gamers

     

    CU with its substantially lower subs target and its assumed lower price point means a LOT less money from MAC gamers.

    Yeah, I'm sure that 7% MAC user number for WoW is quite high due to the reason you stated above. MACs are not really advertised to gamers. Most people understand that if they want to play computer games, they need a windows machine.

    - - "What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?" - -

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,351
    A lot depends on what they're using to make the game.  If they're coding it in C# and using DirectX 11, then don't plan on it ever being available for anything but Windows, as trying to port that would be painful.  If they're coding it in C and using OpenGL 3.2 and not using any Microsoft-created or otherwise Windows-specific tools for anything, it would be stupid not to make a Mac version.
  • drakon3drakon3 Member Posts: 114

    It's not just the coding that costs money.  You need QA and support staff as well.

     

    30,000 CU subs x .07 (7%) = 2,100 MAC subs (probably a lot lower in reality)

    2,100 MAC subs x $15 a month (BEST case scenario) = $31,500 a month

     

    That does not leave much room after you factor in overhead like admin and support staff, server and misc IT costs, marketing etc.

  • tleartlear Member Posts: 142
    Thing with Macs is that QA is trivial compared to Win systems. Would it be worth it? who knows, but I would love to be able to play on the next Mac I will buy in the next year or so. I use it for work so I can dump quite a bit of cash on it without regrets
  • naezgulnaezgul Member Posts: 374
    I play daoc on Mac with windows bootcamp works fine
  • drakon3drakon3 Member Posts: 114
    Originally posted by naezgul
    I play daoc on Mac with windows bootcamp works fine

    I don't think you understand what we're talking about.  Playing in bootcamp/parallels/fusion is still playing in Windows, using the Windows client.  No extra development required.  The topic is about creating a native MAC OS client, which most agree is a waste of resources for a dev team this small.

  • naezgulnaezgul Member Posts: 374
    Originally posted by drakon3
    Originally posted by naezgul
    I play daoc on Mac with windows bootcamp works fine

    I don't think you understand what we're talking about.  Playing in bootcamp/parallels/fusion is still playing in Windows, using the Windows client.  No extra development required.  The topic is about creating a native MAC OS client, which most agree is a waste of resources for a dev team this small.

    I'm supporting that idea.......Mac users can play with their machines

  • KarraptathidKarraptathid Member Posts: 78
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    A lot depends on what they're using to make the game.  If they're coding it in C# and using DirectX 11, then don't plan on it ever being available for anything but Windows, as trying to port that would be painful.  If they're coding it in C and using OpenGL 3.2 and not using any Microsoft-created or otherwise Windows-specific tools for anything, it would be stupid not to make a Mac version.

     

    If CSE is going to use Gamebryo (MJ's DAoC and WAR both used it) 4.0, that supports OpenGL. I would love to see them using OpenGL as it opens the door to multiple OSs clients, not just OS-X/iOS.  Limited CU client (nonRVR) on a tablet or smartphone would be pretty cool to have on the go.  

    Midranki - To us, Thidranki Faste is not just some center keep, it's our field Guild Hall.
    Camelot Unchained's Kickstarter - Warrior Forever

  • KarraptathidKarraptathid Member Posts: 78
    Originally posted by tlear
    Thing with Macs is that QA is trivial compared to Win systems. Would it be worth it? who knows, but I would love to be able to play on the next Mac I will buy in the next year or so. I use it for work so I can dump quite a bit of cash on it without regrets

     

    Depends on where Apple is going to with hardware.  If it's really looking to shift more to their multicore A-15 designed arch for all but high end Macs, might be a very intelligent move to support OpenGL vs DirectX.  It's one thing to go with the flow being a tiny fish in the vast x86/DX ocean, it's another to be a medium to large fish in a pool of tens of millions potential customers who don't have much to chose from as far as modern MMORPGs.  Then there is the Linux/Android markets to consider, if not just for limited client support.

    Midranki - To us, Thidranki Faste is not just some center keep, it's our field Guild Hall.
    Camelot Unchained's Kickstarter - Warrior Forever

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,351
    Originally posted by Karraptathid
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    A lot depends on what they're using to make the game.  If they're coding it in C# and using DirectX 11, then don't plan on it ever being available for anything but Windows, as trying to port that would be painful.  If they're coding it in C and using OpenGL 3.2 and not using any Microsoft-created or otherwise Windows-specific tools for anything, it would be stupid not to make a Mac version.

     

    If CSE is going to use Gamebryo (MJ's DAoC and WAR both used it) 4.0, that supports OpenGL. I would love to see them using OpenGL as it opens the door to multiple OSs clients, not just OS-X/iOS.  Limited CU client (nonRVR) on a tablet or smartphone would be pretty cool to have on the go.  

    At the moment, OpenGL really only means Windows, Mac OS X, or Linux.  iOS in particular does not support OpenGL.  Or rather, it's not an operating system thing, but there aren't any iOS devices with a graphics chip that supports OpenGL.  The same is true of Android, Windows RT, BlackBerry OS, Symbian, and basically any other mobile-oriented OS you can think of.

    Now, there is also OpenGL ES, and OpenGL ES 2.0 is the best that iOS currently supports.  But that launched way back in 2007 and was rather gimpy even in its day.  That's not a serious option unless either you're intentionally going to do primitive graphics (e.g., if all that you know how to do is 2D) or you're making a game that largely targets a mobile audience rather than desktops or laptops.

    You can get some Android devices that target OpenGL ES 3.0, which is, well, less bad.  But it's still way behind even DirectX 10 or OpenGL 3.2, let alone the modern DirectX 11 and OpenGL 4.3.

    There's also a huge difference between "this game engine lets you use OpenGL if you really insist on it" and "you're actually going to use OpenGL".

    And then there's the issue that Mac OS X only supports older versions of OpenGL, and not more modern ones.  If you make a game in OpenGL 4.3 (the latest version) and want to port it to Mac OS X, you'll have to make an OpenGL 3.2 version, since that's the latest that Mac can handle.  Would Mac gamers really be that thrilled to have a dedicated Mac version that completely disables a ton of graphical options?  And would they really be so understanding that the problem is that Apple won't write modern graphical drivers and there's nothing you can do about it?

  • KarraptathidKarraptathid Member Posts: 78
    Originally posted by Quizzical
     
    At the moment, OpenGL really only means Windows, Mac OS X, or Linux.  iOS in particular does not support OpenGL.  Or rather, it's not an operating system thing, but there aren't any iOS devices with a graphics chip that supports OpenGL.  The same is true of Android, Windows RT, BlackBerry OS, Symbian, and basically any other mobile-oriented OS you can think of.

    Now, there is also OpenGL ES, and OpenGL ES 2.0 is the best that iOS currently supports.  But that launched way back in 2007 and was rather gimpy even in its day.  That's not a serious option unless either you're intentionally going to do primitive graphics (e.g., if all that you know how to do is 2D) or you're making a game that largely targets a mobile audience rather than desktops or laptops.

    You can get some Android devices that target OpenGL ES 3.0, which is, well, less bad.  But it's still way behind even DirectX 10 or OpenGL 3.2, let alone the modern DirectX 11 and OpenGL 4.3.

    There's also a huge difference between "this game engine lets you use OpenGL if you really insist on it" and "you're actually going to use OpenGL".

    And then there's the issue that Mac OS X only supports older versions of OpenGL, and not more modern ones.  If you make a game in OpenGL 4.3 (the latest version) and want to port it to Mac OS X, you'll have to make an OpenGL 3.2 version, since that's the latest that Mac can handle.  Would Mac gamers really be that thrilled to have a dedicated Mac version that completely disables a ton of graphical options?  And would they really be so understanding that the problem is that Apple won't write modern graphical drivers and there's nothing you can do about it?

    And I just looked,  PowerVR SGX554MP4 only supports up to OpenGL 3.  Considering Apple's tens of bilions of dollars in the bank, it's a pretty sad outlook for gaming on Apple hardware.

    Midranki - To us, Thidranki Faste is not just some center keep, it's our field Guild Hall.
    Camelot Unchained's Kickstarter - Warrior Forever

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,351
    Originally posted by Karraptathid
    Originally posted by Quizzical
     
    At the moment, OpenGL really only means Windows, Mac OS X, or Linux.  iOS in particular does not support OpenGL.  Or rather, it's not an operating system thing, but there aren't any iOS devices with a graphics chip that supports OpenGL.  The same is true of Android, Windows RT, BlackBerry OS, Symbian, and basically any other mobile-oriented OS you can think of.

    Now, there is also OpenGL ES, and OpenGL ES 2.0 is the best that iOS currently supports.  But that launched way back in 2007 and was rather gimpy even in its day.  That's not a serious option unless either you're intentionally going to do primitive graphics (e.g., if all that you know how to do is 2D) or you're making a game that largely targets a mobile audience rather than desktops or laptops.

    You can get some Android devices that target OpenGL ES 3.0, which is, well, less bad.  But it's still way behind even DirectX 10 or OpenGL 3.2, let alone the modern DirectX 11 and OpenGL 4.3.

    There's also a huge difference between "this game engine lets you use OpenGL if you really insist on it" and "you're actually going to use OpenGL".

    And then there's the issue that Mac OS X only supports older versions of OpenGL, and not more modern ones.  If you make a game in OpenGL 4.3 (the latest version) and want to port it to Mac OS X, you'll have to make an OpenGL 3.2 version, since that's the latest that Mac can handle.  Would Mac gamers really be that thrilled to have a dedicated Mac version that completely disables a ton of graphical options?  And would they really be so understanding that the problem is that Apple won't write modern graphical drivers and there's nothing you can do about it?

    And I just looked,  PowerVR SGX554MP4 only supports up to OpenGL 3.  Considering Apple's tens of bilions of dollars in the bank, it's a pretty sad outlook for gaming on Apple hardware.

    Actually, according to Imagination, it doesn't even support that much.

    http://www.imgtec.com/corporate/newsdetail.asp?NewsID=601

    Imagination, which makes the graphics chip, says it only supports OpenGL 2.1.  That can't even keep up with DirectX 9.0c.

    But I don't really blame Apple for that.  They basically had to choose from among the graphics chips available, and if they had gone with ARM Mali, Qualcomm Adreno, or Nvidia GeForce ULV (which is based on the GeForce 6000 or 7000 architecture, not the modern desktop GeForce architectures) graphics instead, that really wouldn't be any better.

    Even with the new generation of mobile graphics, ARM, Qualcomm, and Nvidia are still only supporting some really ancient stuff.  Imagination and AMD offer support for modern graphics APIs, but the former wasn't ready in time for the launch of the latest iPads, while the latter would have meant an x86 CPU--which is a no go for iOS.

    What I do blame Apple for is the dismal state of Mac OS X API support.  Last I checked (which wasn't very long ago), Mac OS X only supported up to OpenGL 3.2.  This time, however, the problem wasn't the hardware available to Apple, or even the hardware they chose to use.  If you take exactly the same graphics hardware for any Mac since not long after the switch to x86 and run Windows on it, it supports at least OpenGL 3.3.  In many cases, it even supports the latest and greatest OpenGL 4.3.  And it's not just a Windows thing, either; run Linux on the same hardware and you often get OpenGL 4.3.

    But Apple writes their own video drivers for Mac OS X and isn't willing to support anything newer than OpenGL 3.2, no matter what hardware they use.  I'm guessing that Apple is trying to keep things unified so that older Macs still support "everything", even if only by crippling what the newer ones can do.  

  • skyexileskyexile Member CommonPosts: 692

    Originally posted by OG_Zorvan
    "Mac Gamers"I still think that's an oxymoron, like "Military Intelligence".

    Was coming into the tread to post the same thing.

    SKYeXile
    TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
    Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.

  • meadmoonmeadmoon Member UncommonPosts: 1,344
    Originally posted by OG_Zorvan

    "Mac Gamers"

    I still think that's an oxymoron, like "Military Intelligence".

     

    I know, right?

    I would also add "Windows power user" and "Microsoft security".

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