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People say they find the old school "Grind" yet if given the option to skip it, would they take it?

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  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,636Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Antiquated
    Originally posted by BahamutKaiser

    No, grind is real, it's a description of activity you don't enjoy doing in order to get what you want. Just because it's contextual doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it just means it's circumstancial. Circumstance and preferance are real subjects, opinions don't need to be unanimous in order for them to exist.

    In other words, it is an entirely subjective experience which varies by the player.

    No golden insight awards for this one, though.

    image

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,684Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Normandy7
    The old school grind was the best because for me it is all about the journey an not the destination. 

    Barring the fact that a "skip levels" button is always a terrible idea in a MMORPG, how are modern MMORPGs not about journey?

    I log on and do things that are fun.  Grouping, daily quests, raids.  It's all journey until the very end, and virtually nobody's reaching the end.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • aleosaleos na, INPosts: 1,863Member Uncommon
  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by Antiquated
    Originally posted by BahamutKaiser

    No, grind is real, it's a description of activity you don't enjoy doing in order to get what you want. Just because it's contextual doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it just means it's circumstancial. Circumstance and preferance are real subjects, opinions don't need to be unanimous in order for them to exist.

    In other words, it is an entirely subjective experience which varies by the player.

    No golden insight awards for this one, though.

    Proving the point you're trying to disprove in your first line isn't a very good way to argue something is it  :)

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,290Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by Antiquated
    Originally posted by BahamutKaiser

    No, grind is real, it's a description of activity you don't enjoy doing in order to get what you want. Just because it's contextual doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it just means it's circumstancial. Circumstance and preferance are real subjects, opinions don't need to be unanimous in order for them to exist.

    In other words, it is an entirely subjective experience which varies by the player.

    No golden insight awards for this one, though.

    Proving the point you're trying to disprove in your first line isn't a very good way to argue something is it  :)

    Well that begs a new question doesn't.  Since a preference, opinoin... is only in our heads, if something exists only in our heads, does it actually exist.

    IMO no it doesn't.  Grind is entirely perception.  Change your view and the grind changes, therefore it never really existed in the first place.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,451Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
     

    Well that begs a new question doesn't.  Since a preference, opinoin... is only in our heads, if something exists only in our heads, does it actually exist.

    IMO no it doesn't.  Grind is entirely perception.  Change your view and the grind changes, therefore it never really existed in the first place.

    lol, now you sound like my brother and I when I was 14 ; )

    I agreee with this post whole heartily.

    What does one do in an elder scrolls game if one is not crafting? You probalby are exploring and killing mobs. And yet I rarely see anyone saying elder scrolls games are big grindfests.

  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,731Member Uncommon
    I guess it depends on how you view the game...I didnt see playing in EQ as grinding...I saw it as adventuring and gaining levels was just a part of that...I liked going to new places and going to new camps to find bosses.....I was probably one of the few that didn't sprint to end game and max my AAs....The games that I have played where you leveled quickly and hit end game quickly I didn't last long at all.....
  • AlberelAlberel LondonPosts: 1,121Member
    Originally posted by Normandy7
    The old school grind was the best because for me it is all about the journey an not the destination. 

    This. The old school grind wasn't really a grind because you were not racing to get to the end. The grind mentality comes from impatience to get to the end which was never the point back then.

    If MMOs were more social this could probably be revived, but as long as they remain about getting 1 shiny every x minutes people will inevitably get bored of the game eventually and call it grind.

  • AntiquatedAntiquated Oak Brook, MIPosts: 667Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    What does one do in an elder scrolls game if one is not crafting? You probalby are exploring and killing mobs. And yet I rarely see anyone saying elder scrolls games are big grindfests.

    Yup, if you like doing it, it is not "grind". Self-evident.

    Tie me down and make me craft things? Could I just burn out my eyes with hot pokers instead? Lick razor blades?

     

    Takes all kinds. And the ones you don't think should be playing your games? Always are.

  • AkulasAkulas GoldcoastPosts: 1,615Member Uncommon
    Naah part of playing the game and camping bosses and just chatting

    This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  • Ramonski7Ramonski7 Aurora, ILPosts: 2,656Member Uncommon

    I'm just waiting for the day devs add a stress bar to a game. Like Shadow Heart's malice meter. Too many power levelers, content locust and first maxed players out there. Spend too much time focus on questing and fighting and your stress bar fills. Fill it up completely and suddenly you feel like it's taking longer and longer to level. And that's because, under the hood,  the game is taking in account how quickly you are leveling and adjusting the numerical value of experience needed to gain the next level in accordance. Basically moving the goal post. The system is not limting how much you play, but adjusting itself to compensate for your l33t skillz by adding challenge where a player, such as yourself,  has chosen to seek it.

     

    And how do you lower that stress bar? Why by doing things these types of players normally skip over in their quest to max fast. Namely, go fishing, go exploring, sit in a npc bar and socialize, start crafting, hell even grouping with a lowbie and helping him finish a few quest can lower that stress meter. I mean who has the time to build a strong community if a majority of players are focused exclusively on maxing. Maxing I might add, in order to denounce how shallow and unchallenging the game was.

     

    It's all about trying to re-teach the players to slow down and enjoy the journey, not the race. I'll be honest, I hated the grind. For me it was always a barrier between my friends and I that I just didn't have the time nor the will to overcome (try closing a 10+ level difference in DAoC when you're johnny come late). So I simply brushed it off as something the devs cooked up because that's the best they could think of to keep us playing. But that doesn't mean I didn't appreciate what it accomplished. And that's why I'll be the first to admit that the grind served a dual purpose. That second purpose may not have been intentional (or as obvious to me then as it is now) but it help build a tighter community among it's players. That's because it was so damn boring with all that pullin, killin and sittin around to recover! And we had a lot more time to build bonds because of it.

    image
    "Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  • VhalnVhaln Chicago, ILPosts: 3,159Member
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    People say they hate grind, but when it is removed people whine about not having "enough to do."

    because what they really mean, is that they hate games where there isn't much to do, except grind.

    When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.

  • OrtwigOrtwig Cambridge, MAPosts: 1,159Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vhaln
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    People say they hate grind, but when it is removed people whine about not having "enough to do."

    because what they really mean, is that they hate games where there isn't much to do, except grind.

    Actually what it really means is that some people like grind, but won't admit it.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,290Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by Vhaln
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    People say they hate grind, but when it is removed people whine about not having "enough to do."

    because what they really mean, is that they hate games where there isn't much to do, except grind.

    Actually what it really means is that some people like grind, but won't admit it.

    Well if they like the activity, they it is no longer monotonous or unpleasant right?  Therefore it's not a grind anymore.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • OrtwigOrtwig Cambridge, MAPosts: 1,159Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by Vhaln
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    People say they hate grind, but when it is removed people whine about not having "enough to do."

    because what they really mean, is that they hate games where there isn't much to do, except grind.

    Actually what it really means is that some people like grind, but won't admit it.

    Well if they like the activity, they it is no longer monotonous or unpleasant right?  Therefore it's not a grind anymore.

    To some, doing something montonous or repititous is not unpleasant.  

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,636Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by Vhaln
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    People say they hate grind, but when it is removed people whine about not having "enough to do."

    because what they really mean, is that they hate games where there isn't much to do, except grind.

    Actually what it really means is that some people like grind, but won't admit it.

    Well if they like the activity, they it is no longer monotonous or unpleasant right?  Therefore it's not a grind anymore.

    To some, doing something montonous or repititous is not unpleasant.  

    Thus, the 'not a grind' statement.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • GregorMcgregorGregorMcgregor FalkirkPosts: 222Member Uncommon

    Not so sure I would love the old grind as much, after all we've been somewhat spoiled, but I do miss the feeling.

    Getting to 50 in DaoC was like winning the lottery, I feel it made leveling in Rift, SWTOR and GW2 feel very fast, and empty. Like I'd been handed something for free. :)

    Would I skip it? Maybe, I'd try it & if it was hellish, then I'd skip it. Always need to try a piece 1st. ;)

    No trials. No tricks. No traps. No EU-RP server. NO THANKS!

    image

    ...10% Benevolence, 90% Arrogance in my case!
  • KaosProphetKaosProphet Edmonton, ABPosts: 379Member
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    Lot of people in the community say they enjoy the old school grinding that progression required in older MMOs.

    I say the 'grind' was never a good thing.  I doubt most people (masochists aside) liked it for itself; I believe they liked the side effects of it, or perhaps the schadenfreude of watching others suffer through it. 

    Even me, to some extent.  I hate the grind, and couldn't care less about 'progression' itself.  But I did like the throttling effect that the grind (or other 'tedium' features, like slow-travel) imposes on the speed of content consumption, and would be willing to put up with some grind to maintain that.  

  • KaosProphetKaosProphet Edmonton, ABPosts: 379Member
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by Vhaln
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    People say they hate grind, but when it is removed people whine about not having "enough to do."

    because what they really mean, is that they hate games where there isn't much to do, except grind.

    Actually what it really means is that some people like grind, but won't admit it.

    Well if they like the activity, they it is no longer monotonous or unpleasant right?  Therefore it's not a grind anymore.

    To some, doing something montonous or repititous is not unpleasant.  

    To some, being beaten senseless with a steel rod is a turn on.  And while I am in full support of risk-aware consensual kink, I'm not about to go proselytizing it's virtues to the skeptical.

    (Although in fairness, I must admit that I have and likely will do so regarding other analogs...)

  • GhavriggGhavrigg Halifax, NSPosts: 771Member Uncommon
    A game without some sort of grind would get old and boring incredibly quick. With nothing to work towards, there's nothing to look forward to, thus no reason to continue playing.
  • OrtwigOrtwig Cambridge, MAPosts: 1,159Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by KaosProphet
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by Vhaln
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    People say they hate grind, but when it is removed people whine about not having "enough to do."

    because what they really mean, is that they hate games where there isn't much to do, except grind.

    Actually what it really means is that some people like grind, but won't admit it.

    Well if they like the activity, they it is no longer monotonous or unpleasant right?  Therefore it's not a grind anymore.

    To some, doing something montonous or repititous is not unpleasant.  

    To some, being beaten senseless with a steel rod is a turn on.  And while I am in full support of risk-aware consensual kink, I'm not about to go proselytizing it's virtues to the skeptical.

    (Although in fairness, I must admit that I have and likely will do so regarding other analogs...)

    Unfortunately, there are more people who like being beaten with steel rods (and won't admit it) than you think.   I'm not one of them, just sayin...

  • OrtwigOrtwig Cambridge, MAPosts: 1,159Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ghavrigg
    A game without some sort of grind would get old and boring incredibly quick. With nothing to work towards, there's nothing to look forward to, thus no reason to continue playing.

    ^ See what I mean?  ;)

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,469Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by Vhaln
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    People say they hate grind, but when it is removed people whine about not having "enough to do."

    because what they really mean, is that they hate games where there isn't much to do, except grind.

    Actually what it really means is that some people like grind, but won't admit it.

    Well if they like the activity, they it is no longer monotonous or unpleasant right?  Therefore it's not a grind anymore.

     Grind = time.  Everything in a game is a grind.  It makes it simple to think about and won't get stuck in life worrying about the "correct" definition of grind.

  • GhavriggGhavrigg Halifax, NSPosts: 771Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by Ghavrigg
    A game without some sort of grind would get old and boring incredibly quick. With nothing to work towards, there's nothing to look forward to, thus no reason to continue playing.

    ^ See what I mean?  ;)

    I do! As long as there are options as to how you grind, I don't mind the grind. it's necessary.

  • KaosProphetKaosProphet Edmonton, ABPosts: 379Member
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by KaosProphet
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by Vhaln
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    People say they hate grind, but when it is removed people whine about not having "enough to do."

    because what they really mean, is that they hate games where there isn't much to do, except grind.

    Actually what it really means is that some people like grind, but won't admit it.

    Well if they like the activity, they it is no longer monotonous or unpleasant right?  Therefore it's not a grind anymore.

    To some, doing something montonous or repititous is not unpleasant.  

    To some, being beaten senseless with a steel rod is a turn on.  And while I am in full support of risk-aware consensual kink, I'm not about to go proselytizing it's virtues to the skeptical.

    (Although in fairness, I must admit that I have and likely will do so regarding other analogs...)

    Unfortunately, there are more people who like being beaten with steel rods (and won't admit it) than you think.   I'm not one of them, just sayin...

    That's not what's unfortunate.

    What's unfortunate is when they ask for you to be beaten with a steel rod, and suggest that you're lying when you say you don't like it.

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