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Ways we can improve the state of MMO's

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  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,314Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by Antiquated

    Yup. Assuming the up-front investment wasn't too large, a game can run on 150k subs for an eternity.

    CoX was still profitable when they pulled the plug.

    Not according to NCSoft ;)

    Profitable is somehwat subjective when it comes to some of these mmo companies. Remember earth and beyond ? That game had a pretty solid player base but EA was looking for an EQ and when it didn't turn into it over night they pulled it. Why spend money on a game that isn't making us millions each month ?

    I'm sure CoX finnaly fell for the same reason.

     That is the question much as I did like CoH off and on.  I do believe it was profitable, but perhaps not profitable enough.

    If I was in charge of a business and I had one game that was doing allright, making a profit, but I thought I could make more by putting those resources somehwere else... I would be tempted to do just that.

     

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

     That is the question much as I did like CoH off and on.  I do believe it was profitable, but perhaps not profitable enough.

    If I was in charge of a business and I had one game that was doing allright, making a profit, but I thought I could make more by putting those resources somehwere else... I would be tempted to do just that.

     

    I probably would as well but...CoX could have gone on for years with no real content updates and just a basic crew of ppl looking after it. Shutting it down just made them a lot of very loyal fans into life time enemies. It's one thing to focus your efforts but this was just a bad busniess call imo.

  • xKopogeroxxKopogerox ShebattPosts: 68Member
    Originally posted by aesperus

    The answer is simple:

    1) STOP assuming you know what's best for all games. Spoiler: you don't. No one does.

    And how do you know that no one does? Stop lying yourself. If your unable doesn't mean it's impossible.

    2) SUPPORT good ideas / good games. If a dev does something you like, go out of your way to make sure they know it. Far too many people in this community sit silently content when they like something. Very few people actually voice out and comment on things that are good.

    That's why if you read my 1st post you'll see I've bought games like DCUO Online, StarCraft II etc, despite not being what I want, but I learned the hard way that companies will gladly pump apples than apple pies if the apple sells as good for the half effort and time invested at delivering it.

    3) If you think you know how to make a better game, then start making your own games. Don't start w/ an MMO, start small. It's very doable, and it will give you an entirely new perspective on the reality behind making games, so you can start having real opinions on them that are actually useful.

    Great and complex MMO's require more than 1 man, but with current state of games since my schedule is less busy I do have the time to commit and start a project. Good thing I can still entertain myself with other activities to actually commit such time on building AAA MMO.

    Sadly, less than half the people on the sight will do even 1 of the above 3 things. Let alone all 3. It's much easier to play armchair designer and assume you have all the answers.

    I don't assume, I know and thanks to my knowledge I do far better decisions with my $ than I used to when I was 6-8 years old. PM me later in 2013 if you want advice which MMO is worth buying out of the dozens that will come out, I'll gladly help you out, thx.

     

    Starcraft oldschool aka wise/04. SWG/UO aka Wise HeRo, Light Jedi Knight pre-cu (Bria)

  • xKopogeroxxKopogerox ShebattPosts: 68Member
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

     That is the question much as I did like CoH off and on.  I do believe it was profitable, but perhaps not profitable enough.

    If I was in charge of a business and I had one game that was doing allright, making a profit, but I thought I could make more by putting those resources somehwere else... I would be tempted to do just that.

     

    I probably would as well but...CoX could have gone on for years with no real content updates and just a basic crew of ppl looking after it. Shutting it down just made them a lot of very loyal fans into life time enemies. It's one thing to focus your efforts but this was just a bad busniess call imo.

    Good thing I never played COH or COX. This is why experience pays off at the end.

    Starcraft oldschool aka wise/04. SWG/UO aka Wise HeRo, Light Jedi Knight pre-cu (Bria)

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,314Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by xKopogerox
    Originally posted by aesperus

    The answer is simple:

    1) STOP assuming you know what's best for all games. Spoiler: you don't. No one does.

    And how do you know that no one does? Stop lying yourself. If your unable doesn't mean it's impossible.

    2) SUPPORT good ideas / good games. If a dev does something you like, go out of your way to make sure they know it. Far too many people in this community sit silently content when they like something. Very few people actually voice out and comment on things that are good.

    That's why if you read my 1st post you'll see I've bought games like DCUO Online, StarCraft II etc, despite not being what I want, but I learned the hard way that companies will gladly pump apples than apple pies if the apple sells as good for the half effort and time invested at delivering it.

    3) If you think you know how to make a better game, then start making your own games. Don't start w/ an MMO, start small. It's very doable, and it will give you an entirely new perspective on the reality behind making games, so you can start having real opinions on them that are actually useful.

    Great and complex MMO's require more than 1 man, but with current state of games since my schedule is less busy I do have the time to commit and start a project. Good thing I can still entertain myself with other activities to actually commit such time on building AAA MMO.

    Sadly, less than half the people on the sight will do even 1 of the above 3 things. Let alone all 3. It's much easier to play armchair designer and assume you have all the answers.

    I don't assume, I know and thanks to my knowledge I do far better decisions with my $ than I used to when I was 6-8 years old. PM me later in 2013 if you want advice which MMO is worth buying out of the dozens that will come out, I'll gladly help you out, thx.

     

     1.  Yes it's impossible.  It would mean you would need to know all about all games, all about all the customers, all about the different ways to reach that customer and then be able to predict the future to plan for any events that are beyond you and your customers control.  So yes it's impossible.

    2.  His point was support games you think you may like.  Many people like those games.

    3.  Good for you.

    4.  Interesting.  Everyone feels they know and are doing what they should be. 

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,314Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by xKopogerox
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

     That is the question much as I did like CoH off and on.  I do believe it was profitable, but perhaps not profitable enough.

    If I was in charge of a business and I had one game that was doing allright, making a profit, but I thought I could make more by putting those resources somehwere else... I would be tempted to do just that.

     

    I probably would as well but...CoX could have gone on for years with no real content updates and just a basic crew of ppl looking after it. Shutting it down just made them a lot of very loyal fans into life time enemies. It's one thing to focus your efforts but this was just a bad busniess call imo.

    Good thing I never played COH or COX. This is why experience pays off at the end.

     Why is that a good thing?  I had a lot of fun with CoH for several years.  I don't begrudge my time there. 

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by xKopogerox
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

     That is the question much as I did like CoH off and on.  I do believe it was profitable, but perhaps not profitable enough.

    If I was in charge of a business and I had one game that was doing allright, making a profit, but I thought I could make more by putting those resources somehwere else... I would be tempted to do just that.

     

    I probably would as well but...CoX could have gone on for years with no real content updates and just a basic crew of ppl looking after it. Shutting it down just made them a lot of very loyal fans into life time enemies. It's one thing to focus your efforts but this was just a bad busniess call imo.

    Good thing I never played COH or COX. This is why experience pays off at the end.

    you're not buying fine art to hang on your wall to enjoy for decades to come. You're buying fun at the moment and maybe some good memories. I had both in CoX it was well worth the money.

    The only experience you gain from not trying something is a lack of it.

  • xKopogeroxxKopogerox ShebattPosts: 68Member
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by xKopogerox
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

     That is the question much as I did like CoH off and on.  I do believe it was profitable, but perhaps not profitable enough.

    If I was in charge of a business and I had one game that was doing allright, making a profit, but I thought I could make more by putting those resources somehwere else... I would be tempted to do just that.

     

    I probably would as well but...CoX could have gone on for years with no real content updates and just a basic crew of ppl looking after it. Shutting it down just made them a lot of very loyal fans into life time enemies. It's one thing to focus your efforts but this was just a bad busniess call imo.

    Good thing I never played COH or COX. This is why experience pays off at the end.

    you're not buying fine art to hang on your wall to enjoy for decades to come. You're buying fun at the moment and maybe some good memories. I had both in CoX it was well worth the money.

    The only experience you gain from not trying something is a lack of it.

    Unless I was playing something else at the time, which is still around if I ever decide to get back. MMORPG's are about character progression for a purpose, but players like you who see them as a place to enjoy the themepark ride and move on to the next is what makes the companies most happy.

    Starcraft oldschool aka wise/04. SWG/UO aka Wise HeRo, Light Jedi Knight pre-cu (Bria)

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,314Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by xKopogerox
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by xKopogerox
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

     That is the question much as I did like CoH off and on.  I do believe it was profitable, but perhaps not profitable enough.

    If I was in charge of a business and I had one game that was doing allright, making a profit, but I thought I could make more by putting those resources somehwere else... I would be tempted to do just that.

     

    I probably would as well but...CoX could have gone on for years with no real content updates and just a basic crew of ppl looking after it. Shutting it down just made them a lot of very loyal fans into life time enemies. It's one thing to focus your efforts but this was just a bad busniess call imo.

    Good thing I never played COH or COX. This is why experience pays off at the end.

    you're not buying fine art to hang on your wall to enjoy for decades to come. You're buying fun at the moment and maybe some good memories. I had both in CoX it was well worth the money.

    The only experience you gain from not trying something is a lack of it.

    Unless I was playing something else at the time, which is still around if I ever decide to get back. MMORPG's are about character progression for a purpose, but players like you who see them as a place to enjoy the themepark ride and move on to the next is what makes the companies most happy.

    And there was character progression, and we played for years, and we were happy.  Sheesh. 

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by xKopogerox

    Unless I was playing something else at the time, which is still around if I ever decide to get back. MMORPG's are about character progression for a purpose, but players like you who see them as a place to enjoy the themepark ride and move on to the next is what makes the companies most happy.

    games are about fun. Your failures in life are what lead you to beleive they involve anything else.

  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member
    Originally posted by xKopogerox
    Originally posted by laokoko

    The answer is simple.  You can't improve the state of MMO.

    Only way you can improve MMO is by having a lot of money to make your own company, or become a large share holder that you can impact the game industry.

    The truth is if you are not willing to risk a few million of your own money, why should any game studio listen to you?

    and the truth judging by looking at the mmorpg industry... many of the so called failed games are actually making lots of money.  Ironically.  Maybe that's why there are so many failed game on the market.

    They don't have to listen, but since their primary goal is taking my $ and making a MMO with bright future ahead I would not just listened to hardcore experienced gamers as I on forums like these, but I would've spam them with pm's and lucrative offers to help build a MMO with a working formula(something that's very rare to see over the last decade).

    So that brings another good way how we can improve the state of MMO's. Companies need to read and monitor MMO forums as these and contact players who they believe are "gods of gaming". I would gladly help a company interested enough to deliver a successful product since I'm game free thx to current state of MMO's. I have far more free time on my hands.

    By the way care to enlighten the community with these so called "failed games" that are making lots of money? I dare you to list 3 that's been around for a while that actually grew significantly, rather than diminished since initial launch.

     

    Actually I think I over said when I say they are making lots of money.  What I really should say they are making prety good money.

    I was actually listening to one of the game developing trying to get funding for an upcoming game and when people questioned him for making failed game, (and believe me everyone on mmorpg call it a fail game) he said that game was making money and is still making money till this day.  I don't want to get into detail what game is it because the guy is trying to get funding.

    And you said before NCsoft should just make 1 game.  When all their games are making lot of money.  First of all they already are spending lot of money or resource in all their game.  And they are actually making really good money.  And I hope you understand "gambling" all your money in 1 game is very risky.

    The actually reality and problem I see is company are spending way too much money developing 1 game when they should spend less money and develop multiple games.  You know all the crappy asian f2p company is doing very well.  Of course that might have something to do with the large asian market but it is something companys should consider.  I mean camelot unchain is trying to develop a game with very little starting budget.  Maybe SWTOR and TESO is the one doing it wrong.

    And no, company's goal isn't tryign to make money from "you".  Just because you hate a game or like a game don't meant a dent when no one else agrees with you.  And maybe you are just too picky that the mmorpg company should ignore you like you said yourself. Maybe they should try to max their profit and just try to ignore all the people like you.

  • AdamTMAdamTM Frankfurt Am MainPosts: 1,376Member

    How To Unfuck MMOs

    A guide by AdamTM

     

    Step 1: Stop making MMOs

    Step 2: Make games

    Step 3: Congratulations, you have unfucked MMOs.

    image
  • KaosProphetKaosProphet Edmonton, ABPosts: 379Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    A game that diminishes after launch, does not mean that 6 months down the road the game is not making money.

    I think, at this point in time, just about any game with reasonable market awareness is going to diminish after launch.

     

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,314Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by KaosProphet
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    A game that diminishes after launch, does not mean that 6 months down the road the game is not making money.

    I think, at this point in time, just about any game with reasonable market awareness is going to diminish after launch.

     

    Interestingly enough thats pretty much the way it goes with many/most hyped products or services; The new movie, new restaurant, new book... Tons of sales at release, then slows to a more realistic level - they just don't have subscriptions, but definate similarities. 

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by xKopogerox
     

    Unless I was playing something else at the time, which is still around if I ever decide to get back. MMORPG's are about character progression for a purpose, but players like you who see them as a place to enjoy the themepark ride and move on to the next is what makes the companies most happy.

    Looks like this is exactly how the market should work. He makes the companies most happy. The companies produce what he likes. What is the problem here?

  • neosapienceneosapience Reno, NVPosts: 164Member

    Game developers want to make money. You don't make money by catering to a minority. Personally, I find most MMOs to be very easy and ultimately boring. PvP is the only thing that interests me anymore and most MMOs have horrible PvP. Maybe 100 years from now, after I'm long dead, will someone make an MMO that I'd find enjoyable.

     

     

  • ReklawReklaw Am.Posts: 6,474Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by xKopogerox
    Originally posted by laokoko

    The answer is simple.  You can't improve the state of MMO.

    Only way you can improve MMO is by having a lot of money to make your own company, or become a large share holder that you can impact the game industry.

    The truth is if you are not willing to risk a few million of your own money, why should any game studio listen to you?

    and the truth judging by looking at the mmorpg industry... many of the so called failed games are actually making lots of money.  Ironically.  Maybe that's why there are so many failed game on the market.

    They don't have to listen, but since their primary goal is taking my $ and making a MMO with bright future ahead I would not just listened to hardcore experienced gamers as I on forums like these, but I would've spam them with pm's and lucrative offers to help build a MMO with a working formula(something that's very rare to see over the last decade).

    So that brings another good way how we can improve the state of MMO's. Companies need to read and monitor MMO forums as these and contact players who they believe are "gods of gaming". I would gladly help a company interested enough to deliver a successful product since I'm game free thx to current state of MMO's. I have far more free time on my hands.

    By the way care to enlighten the community with these so called "failed games" that are making lots of money? I dare you to list 3 that's been around for a while that actually grew significantly, rather than diminished since initial launch.

     

    Almost had me there......image

  • KaosProphetKaosProphet Edmonton, ABPosts: 379Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by KaosProphet
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    A game that diminishes after launch, does not mean that 6 months down the road the game is not making money.

    I think, at this point in time, just about any game with reasonable market awareness is going to diminish after launch.

     

    Interestingly enough thats pretty much the way it goes with many/most hyped products or services; The new movie, new restaurant, new book... Tons of sales at release, then slows to a more realistic level - they just don't have subscriptions, but definate similarities. 

    Pretty much.

    I wonder, though, if the MMO publishers have realized this is how it is.  I mean, they're not stupid and this is pretty obvious, but it *seems* like every one of them is ready to cut loose and run from the game (or panic and flip payment models) when it happens.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by KaosProphet
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by KaosProphet
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    A game that diminishes after launch, does not mean that 6 months down the road the game is not making money.

    I think, at this point in time, just about any game with reasonable market awareness is going to diminish after launch.

     

    Interestingly enough thats pretty much the way it goes with many/most hyped products or services; The new movie, new restaurant, new book... Tons of sales at release, then slows to a more realistic level - they just don't have subscriptions, but definate similarities. 

    Pretty much.

    I wonder, though, if the MMO publishers have realized this is how it is.  I mean, they're not stupid and this is pretty obvious, but it *seems* like every one of them is ready to cut loose and run from the game (or panic and flip payment models) when it happens.

     

    They already did, and factor shorter life-cycle into their plans. By now, you think devs convert to F2P on the fly? They probably have contingent plans to do so way before the game is released.

    In fact, this is called price discrimination in econ. Just like books have hard cover and soft cover. Get the higher price from the early adopter first, then lower the price to get the rest of the market. It is not a new idea.

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,272Member Uncommon
    stop hyping games we haven't played. Stop pre-ordering after we get hype.
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