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People say they find the old school "Grind" yet if given the option to skip it, would they take it?
MMOExposed
Member RarePosts: 7,387
Lot of people in the community say they enjoy the old school grinding that progression required in older MMOs.
But what if the same game offered options to players to choose to skip that grind?
would most of these people that enjoy the grind, use this option to skip the grind? I believe most people would.
but if that were the case, than that would mean "the grind" really wasn't enjoyable to begin with.
example:
if a MMO had 100 levels and each level took a really long time time to level, and could be set back by death Penality.
Most effective way to level is by mob grinding.
this fits old school grind model.
but add the option for players to skip all the leveling "if they choose"
how many fans of this old school mob level grinding, would use this option?
Doesn't seem fun, if willing to skip it.
playing Tetris,if I am having fun, why would I want to skip the fun? No point of that unless I wasn't having fun doing whatever that is.
but in MMO the grinding has been held up as being the greatest thing ever, but if most people would skip it at a heart beat if given the choice, that obviously its not as enjoyable as people believe.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Comments
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
i muz say i kinda like both but dont wanna see both "styles" optional in the same game.
i started playing mmorpgaming with the ftp game "rappelz" and it had max level 150 n a few ppl hit 120 after like 3 years... i still love the game but prolly cuz its my virgin.
didnt play it since 6 years or so 
on the other side guild wars n aion, or those 1-2 month for max level games n a bit of grinding, have their charm as well.
~
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
I would use the 'delete' option and not play that silly game.
They already have a option to skip the 'grind', its called railed quest hubs, go try to grind in a game, then go complete the quest hub, one is MUCH quicker.
These super railed games, seem to have the effect of 'delete' on me too, I find them boring, faster and faster, the more railed and directed, the faster it is. I lasted 1 game session in GW2, couldn't get into the classes I tried in beta some, and the one I chose at launch to try...TOR...my free month....Rift 2 months (stayed 3, but hardly touched it the 3rd, and left with 3 months paid, due to never playing a mmo for less than a year before this)....
Paying a sub and something being free will not keep me playing, if something is bland and I do not think worth me playing any more, I am done, no matter if they even paid me a sub to keep playing their game.
So if a game had a option "2" to make me uber, click 'here', it would never even get on my computer.
If I feel I'm grinding in a game, it's time to stop playing and play something else. If games present the same repetitive action and events, that end in the same manner over and over again without a need for thought, then I would happily skip that to find the fun in a game (THE END GAME) and then you can see the true colours of a game. I think diversity in a games mechanisms is more important than adding additional content to keep players interested.
Odd way to think about it.... I think the interesting and fun part is to find those more or less efficient ways doing the "grind". It requires people are forced to do the "grind". That forcing is actually fun, because it wouldn't even be game if it didn't force some sort of rules on you. People probably stop playing the game if the "grind" isn't fun to at least some extent, or at least should. Many would probably use the skipping method, but that's just because it happens to be the fastest route to the goal, but it doesn't mean they wouldn't enjoy the grind and that they won't regret skipping. It's easy to take that route, but it's rarely fulfilling. The skipping method breaks the game.
I miss DAoC
No one likes the grind, they like the effort it takes to get the reward. The same ppl who would opt out of the grind are the same people who would be bored in days complaining about lack of content never realizing it was their own fault.
When people want old school what they really want is something worth while at the end. It's the feeling of acomplishment that's missing from so many games. They add the time sink and forget to add the meaningful reward...or worse have nothing worth while at the end game.
So if a game had the option to skip all the grind I wouldn't play it. I'm not looking for free hand out and don't beleive a game would be fun if you added a " power lvl me " option.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
I really like great rewards at the end of great tasks. Tasks can be time intensive (such as a grind) or skill intensive (The release difficulty of WoW heroics during BC era).
But if you have a cash shop option to skip the grind suddenly many people will have the great reward and the task of beating it to get something is much more meaningless.
I used to be a master alchemist in Asheron's Call. It took so much time to level this non combat skill up to a good level. Yet I was sought after because I was one of the few people who could craft some of the top end items and had a good success rate on dying armor harder colors.
That grind was extremely rewarding for me. Yet, if you give people an option to avoid that grind suddenly everyone can become a master alchemist and it would be a dimished reward.
Sometimes the harshness of the task boosts what a reward is worth to you.
With the "Old School Grind" the "Old School Players" enjoyed the grind because the leveling process took so long. It took you a lot of time invested in the game to get each and every precious level and once you obtained it, you gained access to new abilities which were like little Christmas presents since they took so long to get. You had the feeling that you had plenty of time to explore and to socialize and just plain farm items for newbie characters and give them away for free just to help someone out when they first started playing the game. We took the time to take newbie players under our wings and show them where to go and what to do until they understood how to play the game.
Now... Say that the max levelel was say 20 and while this does not sound to high, in a game like "Legends of Kesmai" a level 20 character with level 20 skill was very powerful indeed. If there was a way to jump from a brand new dock baby (a new character spawned on the docks in LoK... hence the name dock baby) to a level 20 Character few people would take that route for a few reasons.
The first reason is: Why would you want to play a game where you were instantly max level and skill? There really would be nothing to do? Nothing would be a challenge. Nothing would be beyond your ability to kill. In a word it would be "boring".
The second reason is that in the "Old School Games" your level was not really tied to your skill level. You may be max level but if you had level 1 skills then you would be pretty much dead meat on when you got a tad over your head. In the "Old School Games" having more "skill ranks" was more important than actual "levels" in your class.
These days..... People want things given to them instantly. They must grind to max level the moment the servers first go on-line. They treat the game as a 24/7 job not something that was designed for enjoyment and for you to take your time on. People want other people to give them the highest level gear and a ton of gold just because they just created their first character and don't know what to do and are unwilling to even attempt to try to learn the game. These days it's the "Give Me, Give Me, Give Me, Now, Now, Now, I Want, I Want I Want" Generation.
Give me the "Old School Grind" and the "Old School Players" anytime over the alternatives we have today.
Ratero.
He's using the word grind to intentionally color the question. Then again, has he ever created a post that poses a question where it wasn't intentionally leading or based on a false premise? People here latch onto keywords so that's a consistently effective tool for creating epic threads on these boards.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Well, I'm currently playing Aion and just loaded up Lineage 2 and I prefer the "going out and hunting" type of game play.
I'll take a quest in Aion but after I finish killing 20 of something I'll just stay there and relax and hunt for a bit. I do the same thing in Tera.
Sometimes quests can be fun if there is a good story or premise but many times it's just running around disrupted with small tasks.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
If you remove the grind you are not playing an MMORPG. The grind *IS* the game. The key is giving it meaningful context which has been lacking lately. Currently grind is being interpreted as essentially an action game with attributes you change over time.
Such a small representation of what a true RPG could be. Everquest was a true RPG. You went through the (boring) grind to see new areas and get new items. What you didnt have was enough to push you to get it. You control over your character and its evolving growth. All of this is gone.
I feel it is happening because the gaming public is changing. To me they lack the patience and investment required for the older style games. Its just faster to churn out games you can max quickly to get a instant return. But then they all run into the same problem of a HUGE drop off since all the (simple) content has been consumed.
It will take an independent developer/publisher to change this because the global ones are stupid and revenue driven. Just the way things are.
While true they are entertaining and much better than the normal "this game sucks" threads that go on.
Oh hell yeah
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
"Slow leveling" it's all about shared experience.
If you are playing football in your backyard usually everyone agrees on the rules. Tackle? Flag? etc.
If you are playing a game of monopoly, there are sometimes "local variants" that people use such as all the taxes and fines going in the center and if someone lands on free parking they get the pot.
It's less fun for some people to be playing by one set of rules and other people to be playing by others.
It creates for stories of shared experience.
I would say that some people, myself incuded, like slow leveling. No one (or anyone who is healthy) wants to penalize anyone for the sake of it. They want to play with like minded people with universal rules that everyone agrees with.
That's why it's ok to have games with permadeath or full looting or games where you can get to max level in a day.
Part of playing a game and part of the fun is in the trials and tribulations and shared stories of the players. Being the only player following a set of rules such as imposing your own permadeath, isn't very fun when you are playing an online game with others who aren't part of the same rule set.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
There's a lot of truth in that.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I love the "grind isn't real, that's just your preferance" line... cause that makes total sense, if 60 out of 100 ppl say something tastes bad, it doesn't taste bad, most ppl just don't like it... 10 feet isn't high, your just short...
No, grind is real, it's a description of activity you don't enjoy doing in order to get what you want. Just because it's contextual doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it just means it's circumstancial. Circumstance and preferance are real subjects, opinions don't need to be unanimous in order for them to exist.
I think what is most prevalent about grind in RPGs, not just MMOs, is that people are willing to tolerate less than satisfying gameplay simply to participate in a fantasy, feel achievement, experience a story, or any other number of rewards in an RPG. This is far less relevant in a brief game though, as ones disatisfaction with the gameplay isn't as aggrevated when your not exposed to it as long. Likewise, many gameplay qualities which are sub par are perfectly adequate when your only daubling in it for a while.
This circumstance is extremely noticable when a game attempts to occupy you for an indefinate amount of time, since they want to retain you for so long, shortening content isn't much of a solution. Though as games move away from subscription sales, they may not be as enthusiastic about preoccupying you indefinately, players who particularly like MMOs are attached to the endlessness of entertainment in MMOs, so again, shortening them isn't the solution.
The gameplay really needs to be renewably interesting over an indefinate amount of time, some ppl imagine it can't be done, while others are perfectly satisfied with what's available, that's their preferance, and moreso, some people are also displeased with or unable to enjoy intense gameplay, or just so in an MMO (of course these aren't to spazzy or action packed, that's just a persons persective >.>), so there is a division of preferance. It's possible to make a game which caters to a broader or combine audience if developers get creative, but nothing can satisfy everyone, humans are just different and diverse.
But I retain that Grind is the worst part of MMOs, sure certain gameplay is adequate for some, and for some that is OK, but there are ways to improve gameplay even within a preferance, and creative crossover gameplay can find ways for gameplay to be fun to different preferances, even allow gameplay to work in many alternate ways for a larger audience. And knowing that many players tolerate grind for auterior reasons, it furthers the point that there are better ways to make the gameplay.
There's a sure way to know though if your grinding or not. If you removed all other auxilery motivation, would you still play it?, Would you in fact be playiing that game if a program was operating the other characters and not people? Overlooking the fact that the gameplay may be an enabler of that quality, does it alone stand evident as fun? Would you in fact be playing it if it was not an RPG, and had no character deveopement, or story, or progression? And before you say that's oversimplifying, there are plenty of games like this, Shooters, RTS, even MOBA isolate character development and progression into one brief session, the story is totally uneccessary for you to enjoy them, and the gameplay stands on it's own. I'm not saying it has to be one of these genre of gameplay, I am saying, the gameplay could be made better, and no amount of dismissal or disinterest can refute that. Even for those who are satisfied with their game, there is room to improve the game to be more satisfying for them, and or broaden to appeal to a larger audience.
Personally, I love character development, progression, and character diversity, it never had to be shortened, if it is a good character development system with enticing growth and change, it is OK for it to take months, and years to pursue. It never had to be shorter, but I do not want to tolerate some sort of excess boredom in the process either... The character development can be great, and so can the gameplay, the combat, the auxilery activities, and everything else.
Consoles installments have show a good job of incorperating former advancements in gaming into modern games, from platforming, physics, combat behavior, interactive environments, surreal cut scenes and even in gameplay visuals, Hell, anyone whose played Dissidia knows, gameplay can be so visually impressive that it rivals cut scenes and movies. MMOs need to do the same thing, they need to learn at every avenue, improve on every concept, take away from other MMOs and Console games, and most of all, seperate what is really good content, and what is simply being tolerated, and stop propogating bad mechanics and boring gameplay into new games.
How do you know grinds been solved? People can play the content between lvl 1-10 over and over... they may want to replay it and go back just because it was enjoyable, they may even want to be level capped to stay in that part of the game because their perfectly satisfied with that content, right there, at the beginning. Step up your Game.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.
In other words, it is an entirely subjective experience which varies by the player.
No golden insight awards for this one, though.