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Dedicated Buffing Classes

13

Comments

  • BowbowDAoCBowbowDAoC Granby, QCPosts: 470Member

    I do agree that 5 classes would be a bit too few, and for different reasons :

    - too few classes would be a bit less appealing to some people.  Since CU can bring awesome new stuff for a MMO, i think it has to offer headstart a good variety of classes.

    - having only 5 classes, to me (i'll try to explain my thoughts on it the best i can), would make those 5 classes a bit too specialised to allow further classes to easily appear afterwards, unless there is so many skills available in each of those 5 classes that one cannot get 40 % of them, then it would allow each player that plays a specific class the possibility to be very different from one another.

    - regarding 2nd reason,  i think there is room headstart for a wide variety of skills or spells that could not be given within 5 classes only, without making some classes having a too much wide variety of skills/spells.

    Of course i might be totally wrong, since i'm suggesting this based on my actual knowledge of what the game will be so far, plus based on what i experienced so far in other mmos.

     

    I think 6 or 7 classes at launch would be better for those reasons.

    Tank

    healer

    dps

    scout / stealther

    mage

    bard / mins / skald

    1 original class

    image

    Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
    Thurka on WAR

    image

  • KappenWizKappenWiz Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 162Member

    I wonder if it would be possible to have buffs and other abilities improve or evolve based on stats/conditions/etc.

     

    They'd always work at some basic level, but the player who uses them more or more timely would get smaller added benefits  and maybe new and different effects from them. If a mage has an ability that summons elementals for 30 seconds, you'd get a different, random elemental depending on a bunch of factors like:

     

    • How high his magic attunement is - that would make him an overall better summoner.
    • Where they are in the world - in a forest, one of several different woodland elementals would be summoned with a whole host of different abilities. Is he in his homeland? Perhaps that would work in his favor and summon a creature that comes with a buff to group morale.
    • How successfully he's used the ability up to now - Only used the ability once ever? Maybe a failure at summoning altogether, maybe get a deranged creature that attacks his own group or runs off in fear.
    • What structures are built nearby - Has someone built a mage tower? Or is there a cemetary in proximity? Maybe someone disturbed a mine and angered some deep-dwelling spirits.
    All kinds of things you could do. But draw from a large stable of creatures for randomness.  And maybe even have each creature of the same type draw it's abilities randomly from a table. So, one ice elemental mage NPC would be a nuker, while another ice elemental mage NPC would be a dotter, debuffer, or pet summoner.
     
    Now this would just be one ability or buff, not how the entire class would work. And the more a character played, used the ability, and had decent stats, the more reliable the summoned creature would be, but still always have some percentage of random turnout. The odds on the "rolls" would be better for the accomplished player, but never 100%.
     
    It would be fun to apply this idea to different degrees across all kinds of abilities, including buffs that sometimes grant one effect, sometimes another.
     
     
  • zekuelzekuel portage, INPosts: 38Member
    I think 5 classes is nice. I would actually like to see less classes and more class development to make those classes different. Anyways I thought a crusader type class would be cool. like a palidin but more tank based. I thought having passive aoe auras around the class along with basic chants you cand twist like in daoc. damage/heal/absorbtion. that would be the base of the class but then you would spec into multiple weapons sheilds and make them a true tank. I also thought the cleric class should have auras for buffs and maybe some abilities to up the auras aoe and buff power for short durations instead of just having buffs and concentrtion or aoe buffs. You can make the class more active and bring them in line with a secondary tank type class with hammers and smite. Most of all with healing it should be based upon it being reactive meaning your going to be slower reacting off of what the other classes HP is. It would be nice to see spell start delays and ending delays. A spell that takes 1 sec would have .5 sec start delay(cast) .5 sec end spell delay. abviously your first reaction cast would cast in .5 sec but with the end delay and the start delay of next cast it would still take 1 sec. For longer duration spells or chain style spells and combat styles you could level up abilities to have shorter end delays. another though would be to only have interupt on the start delay. I also like the idea of a ruin preist having ruins auras(necklace) soceted ruins to weapons you can interchange or have higher end weapons with 2-3 ruin slots where you could almost twist your ruins (doesn't have to be limited to buffs though you could have healing and damage ruins too and more than 1 of the same type to stack for higher end buffing, healing, and damage/ also they don't have to be group based the coul be solo based ruins too.)
  • Niix_OzekNiix_Ozek Calgary, ABPosts: 397Member

    Rock Paper Scissors type system you need more classes - imo. Each class needs the defined roles and in a RVR game like this there will be a bunch of roles needed.

    I think they will end up around 6-8 classes likely.

    Musts will be :

    Healer

    Melee dps

    Caster dps

    Caster 2ndary support

    Speed class - granted could mix this through other classes

    Tank ? if they don't just link it with melee dps class.

    hybrid

     

    I will always lean towards more classes the better, even daoc had 3 hib casters that were different in minor ways but all had similar DD type spells, its sometimes not hard to add an extra class.

    I will hope for 8, and have group sizes set to 8.

    Ozek - DAOC
    Niix - Other games that sucked

  • MarkJacobsMarkJacobs CEO City State Entertainment Fairfax, VAPosts: 468Member Uncommon

    Folks,

        Time for a quick post and then back to work on the tiers (I think I went a little overboard with them, currently 17 digital pledge tiers).

    As to not having as many classes as expected, please keep a few  things in mind:

    1) I'm trying my best not to repeat certain mistakes of the past. It would be easy for me to go "OMG, of course we are going to have XXX class or more classes than Dark Age did!!!!' to generate interest and possibly additional support for the game. However, since my approach with CU is rather more guarded, I'd rather say that there will be fewer at launch and then overachieve rather than the opposite.

    2) I know that we will definitely have four classes and that we will have enough variety in how they are built so that they won't be boring. While I expect that we'll be able to have more, the key for CU's success is a small but highly engaged playerbase. If putting in additional classes that weren't fully baked at launch could hurt that playerbase and distract the team as we iterate on the game, then I'll avoid adding additional classes till they are ready to go.

    3) Even if I thought that stealthers were going to be in the game and be the 5th class, I have stated that we really have some interesting thoughts on the subject and that I can't commit either way until our backers have the chance to weigh in. As always, I remain of two minds regarding stealthers and if they go into CU, it has to be done carefully. 

    Mark

    Mark Jacobs
    CEO, City State Entertainment

  • meddyckmeddyck Athens, GAPosts: 1,140Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MarkJacobs

    3) Even if I thought that stealthers were going to be in the game and be the 5th class, I have stated that we really have some interesting thoughts on the subject and that I can't commit either way until our backers have the chance to weigh in. As always, I remain of two minds regarding stealthers and if they go into CU, it has to be done carefully.

    There's no necessity that an archer is a stealther. More than a few games including WAR and GW 2 have made them visible toons.

    Camelot Unchained Backer
    DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  • MarkJacobsMarkJacobs CEO City State Entertainment Fairfax, VAPosts: 468Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by meddyck
    Originally posted by MarkJacobs

    3) Even if I thought that stealthers were going to be in the game and be the 5th class, I have stated that we really have some interesting thoughts on the subject and that I can't commit either way until our backers have the chance to weigh in. As always, I remain of two minds regarding stealthers and if they go into CU, it has to be done carefully.

    There's no necessity that an archer is a stealther. More than a few games including WAR and GW 2 have made them visible toons.

    I couldn't agree more but it's a bit of the "chicken or the egg" thing. I don't want to commit on archers, assassins, stealth, etc. until  we really have a chance to talk it through. I will say I have no plans to implement a system where someone can push a button, go invisible, attack (short range, long range, etc.), push the same button and go invisible again, rinse, wash and repeat. But there's a rather wide gulf between that and no stealth at all. For what it's worth, I've played a lot of long-range damage dealers over the years and I do enjoy the dynamic but I don't want them to be JAFA. :)

    Mark Jacobs
    CEO, City State Entertainment

  • BowbowDAoCBowbowDAoC Granby, QCPosts: 470Member

    Originally posted by BowbowDAoC

    I do agree that 5 classes would be a bit too few, and for different reasons :

    - too few classes would be a bit less appealing to some people.  Since CU can bring awesome new stuff for a MMO, i think it has to offer headstart a good variety of classes.

    - having only 5 classes, to me (i'll try to explain my thoughts on it the best i can), would make those 5 classes a bit too specialised to allow further classes to easily appear afterwards, unless there is so many skills available in each of those 5 classes that one cannot get 40 % of them, then it would allow each player that plays a specific class the possibility to be very different from one another.

    - regarding 2nd reason,  i think there is room headstart for a wide variety of skills or spells that could not be given within 5 classes only, without making some classes having a too much wide variety of skills/spells.

    Of course i might be totally wrong, since i'm suggesting this based on my actual knowledge of what the game will be so far, plus based on what i experienced so far in other mmos.

     

    I think 6 or 7 classes at launch would be better for those reasons.

    Tank

    healer

    dps

    scout / stealther

    mage

    bard / mins / skald

    1 original class

    Originally posted by MarkJacobs

    Folks,

        Time for a quick post and then back to work on the tiers (I think I went a little overboard with them, currently 17 digital pledge tiers).

    As to not having as many classes as expected, please keep a few  things in mind:

    2) I know that we will definitely have four classes and that we will have enough variety in how they are built so that they won't be boring. While I expect that we'll be able to have more, the key for CU's success is a small but highly engaged playerbase. If putting in additional classes that weren't fully baked at launch could hurt that playerbase and distract the team as we iterate on the game.

    Mark

    *snip*

    ok sound good then :) thats the part i was a bit afraid, that there would be only a few "templates" for each class, and evereyone would end up playing exactly the same.

    Less classes is cool as long as there is more options in each one :)

    image

    Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
    Thurka on WAR

    image

  • Niix_OzekNiix_Ozek Calgary, ABPosts: 397Member

    4 classes with 2-3 completely different type of spec lines basically makes 8-12 classes so that could work. Thing with daoc is it had 10 classes but most caster / melee spec lines were just different weapon type or diff damage type of spell so you needed a different class for a different utility ( ie pbaoe instead of DD type )

    Healer, Melee, Caster, Hybrid support/speed

    I would love to see more, especially stealther type that can go bow or melee... so much more immersive having stealthers climb walls and spy in keeps / control the walls - imo.

     

    Ozek - DAOC
    Niix - Other games that sucked

  • TumblebutzTumblebutz Henderson, NVPosts: 322Member
    Originally posted by MarkJacobs
    Originally posted by meddyck
    Originally posted by MarkJacobs

    3) Even if I thought that stealthers were going to be in the game and be the 5th class, I have stated that we really have some interesting thoughts on the subject and that I can't commit either way until our backers have the chance to weigh in. As always, I remain of two minds regarding stealthers and if they go into CU, it has to be done carefully.

    There's no necessity that an archer is a stealther. More than a few games including WAR and GW 2 have made them visible toons.

    I couldn't agree more but it's a bit of the "chicken or the egg" thing. I don't want to commit on archers, assassins, stealth, etc. until  we really have a chance to talk it through. I will say I have no plans to implement a system where someone can push a button, go invisible, attack (short range, long range, etc.), push the same button and go invisible again, rinse, wash and repeat. But there's a rather wide gulf between that and no stealth at all. For what it's worth, I've played a lot of long-range damage dealers over the years and I do enjoy the dynamic but I don't want them to be JAFA. :)

    Keep on keepin' on, Mark.  Your game plan sounds great.  This may be the new template for game development!

     

    *"JAFA?  Just Another F*cking Archer(?)*

    Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

    RED IS DEAD!

  • zekuelzekuel portage, INPosts: 38Member
    Another thought for buff classes is to have buffs affect groups 100% and other allies only 50%. Also keep buffs on the low end of the stats and let multiple buffs stack. This way having one buff class in group does not over power you but if you have a full group of buff classes in one group you would be super strong but also would lack the utility of the other classes making buffs a nice boost but not a nessecity. Also if you have multiple buff classes you would want them to have other utilities to help out your group. This could help with roll restrictions other players might put on you and your class.
  • HairyzacHairyzac Atlanta, GAPosts: 57Member

    I'm really hoping to see a support class with some quality CC in his bag.  Back when I first began playing WoW (please no flames it was fun back then honest!), I played a level 60 mage.  My favorite thing about that class was the awesome CC/utility that it had.  You could control an entire group of people trying to ride by on their mounts in Warsong Gulch.  Freeze them all, then dismounting them one by one with Polymorph.  Then when they all finally realize they have to fight you, freeze, slow, blink, and you're gone.  I really would like to see a class like this in CU.  Certainly it doesn't have to do crazy burst like the original WoW mage as CU will revolve around a system of roles and not homogenize everything.

    I just love harassing groups of people with CC.  It is one of my favorite things to do in any game.

  • zekuelzekuel portage, INPosts: 38Member
    Bring back the importance of rezzing. New games with warfronts/battleground have lost the importance of turning the tide of battle and rezzing your groupmates. It's all just release and run back now. I do like the downed system in GW2 but I don't like the kill after and no chance to rez. I would like to see no rez sickness and maybe a min 15-30 second timer before you can release. Give someone a chance to get you up. I have only had epic battles in Daoc because of the importance of rezzing. Also I love me some bridge camping. Make some good bridges by keeps.
  • Niix_OzekNiix_Ozek Calgary, ABPosts: 397Member
    Originally posted by zekuel
    Bring back the importance of rezzing. New games with warfronts/battleground have lost the importance of turning the tide of battle and rezzing your groupmates. It's all just release and run back now. I do like the downed system in GW2 but I don't like the kill after and no chance to rez. I would like to see no rez sickness and maybe a min 15-30 second timer before you can release. Give someone a chance to get you up. I have only had epic battles in Daoc because of the importance of rezzing. Also I love me some bridge camping. Make some good bridges by keeps.

    He has already stated this. Hopefully there are really long timeouts before forced rez too. When I died far away from my rez point in daoc used to be interesting watching the battle go down and possibly getting a rez.

    Please no AoE rez ( from egg of youth ) :(

    Ozek - DAOC
    Niix - Other games that sucked

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,066Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by KazoWAR
    What are your thoughts on dedicated buffing classes. Do you like the idea of a few classes/specs having all the buffs, or do you like the idea of all classes having 1 buff to contribute to the group? If you like dedicated buffing classes what are your thoughts on buff bots? Would you hope that CSE would implement some kinda of anti-buffbot mechanic?

    let he jsut say F** NO!

     

    Buff Bots were the bane of that game and would of eventually caused me to quit if not for the debacle that was Trials of Atlantis.  Anygame that features dedicated and limited buffbots is a game doomed to failure.  If you want buffing, then you do a Asheron's Call where the buffer is not limited to how many buffs he can have up.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • Krille82Krille82 SundsvallPosts: 5Member
    A way around the BB aspect could be to make all buffs have a duration of maybe 10 - 20 secs, that way the Buffer would need to be active, maybe even give him some interrupts/debuffs.
  • kaltahnkaltahn Virginia Beach, VAPosts: 31Member
    Originally posted by Krille82
    A way around the BB aspect could be to make all buffs have a duration of maybe 10 - 20 secs, that way the Buffer would need to be active, maybe even give him some interrupts/debuffs.

    This.  I'd much rather see buffs be extremely powerful, yet very short duration with a moderate cooldown (relative to the rate of combat).  I wouldn't like to see buffs that last an hour or are on a "concentration" basis - I want buffs that cause my opponent to say "Oh CRAP" when they go off, but with the knowledge that once those buffs expire, they'll be ready to counter attack (if they survive).  To this effect, I'm also kinda against "bard"-type buffing, too - sure, if you weaved it perfectly you could manage some amazing things, but that pretty much also made the role indespensible AND if you weren't absolutely perfect at that role, you were likely blamed for failure and then summarily dismissed from the group.

    A 'dedicated' buff class, in my oppinion, would be medium-to-low on the DPS scale with moderate to high-end survivability, who shines primarily when grouped with the other extreme archetypes (boosts a tank's DPS and boosts a glass cannon's survivability) on a burst-y basis.

  • WolvanWolvan New Lenox, ILPosts: 49Member
    Originally posted by MarkJacobs
    Originally posted by meddyck
    Originally posted by MarkJacobs

    3) Even if I thought that stealthers were going to be in the game and be the 5th class, I have stated that we really have some interesting thoughts on the subject and that I can't commit either way until our backers have the chance to weigh in. As always, I remain of two minds regarding stealthers and if they go into CU, it has to be done carefully.

    There's no necessity that an archer is a stealther. More than a few games including WAR and GW 2 have made them visible toons.

    I couldn't agree more but it's a bit of the "chicken or the egg" thing. I don't want to commit on archers, assassins, stealth, etc. until  we really have a chance to talk it through. I will say I have no plans to implement a system where someone can push a button, go invisible, attack (short range, long range, etc.), push the same button and go invisible again, rinse, wash and repeat. But there's a rather wide gulf between that and no stealth at all. For what it's worth, I've played a lot of long-range damage dealers over the years and I do enjoy the dynamic but I don't want them to be JAFA. :)

    Mark,

     

    Yes, your love of stealthers (especially shadowblades) was well known in DAOC.  *sarcasm!*

     

    As somebody who has played stealther's and non-stealthers, some possible modifications that could help appease people is giving stealth a cast time.  I don't remember actually having seen that mentioned before. 

    Think about it...if stealth had a 3-5 second cast time, can't be moving while casting etc.  You wouldn't be able to use it as an escape method unless you really did escape.  You would really have to break LOS or be far enough away to avoid interrupts.   Heck, you could even put a small cast timer for going from stealth back to visible, say 1 second (vice being able to attack from stealth).   Make it an ability used for scouting and gathering information, but not for dropping huge attacks on people.  Or...have it that people in stealth can ONLY attack other people in stealth.  To attack people out of stealth, they have to drop out of stealth first.  (sorta works into the stealth world phase on top of the regular world).

     

    To summerize (sorry, some of the stuff came as I typed)

    1: Cast time on stealth.  Cast time on exiting stealth? (shorter)

    2: In stealth, you can only attack other people in stealth (do they both stay in stealth or both come out...come out I think)

    3: To attack somebody not in stealth, you need to NOT be in stealth.

     

    This allows the use of stealthed scouts AND encourages the use of "defensive" stealthers to clear enemy scouts.  Stealthers would go out early to make sure the area has been sanitized of enemy scouts.  It also allows you to basically give any class type to be your stealther.  You could even give the class with stealth some stealth abilties...sabatoge, traps etc.  Would make an army be sure to deploy its own stealthers to counter these abilities. 

    image

  • BordogBordog Pullman, WAPosts: 34Member

    First, as for the topic of buffs and buff-bots, I would rather not have them and follow a system of active debuffing.

    Second, all of this classes talk and comments from Mark are awesome. The one thing that I am concerned about (that I experienced in DAOC) is viability of a spec. For instance, I played a Wizard in DAOC. For the most part a fire wizard was preferred and sometimes an ice wizard. Rarely was earth ever used and when I tried to use it it just wasn't as effective as the other specs. 

    Playing a minstrel was also frustrating. I loved the speed buff, as I'm sure most everyone did, but it was a bitch to level one of those guys up. Maybe I didn't understand the class mechanics or it just isn't a class you could solo very well with. 

    I like the idea of having 4-5 classes that are well balanced  and can spec differently. But I want each of those specs to actually be viable for playing.

     

    Edit: typo

    image

  • naezgulnaezgul Homer Glen, ILPosts: 374Member

    I'm worried with that few classes they will hybridize them too much.

    the array of "specialized" classes made the game great. 

    Class needs to fill a small niche 

  • SensaiSensai Princeton, WVPosts: 88Member

    Mark,

     

    I think you are spot on with this approach.  However, I do believe it is imperative that a speed class is present at launch.  I know you touched on speed buffs a few posts back, but the existence of group speed buffs is one of the most fundamental reasons that DAoC worked.  Speed (along with healing of course) is what brought people together in RvR.  It forced you to stay with your group.  While that may seem draconian, such forced constructs are necessary to create the group dyanmic that I believe is desired for CU.  Even for those of us who loved DAoC and pine for a return, many of us are going to need some help getting back in the mindset of working as a group and a realm.  As much as I hate to admit it, I know I have been corrupted by other games.  Even going back to WAR, while the holy trinity was in place and realm pride was present, for the most part, the cohesiveness and combat movements were lacking from what we had in DAoC.  While there are admitedly downsides to speed buffs (people failing off, groups moving on different speeds, etc.), I believe that the pressence of speed buffs is imperative to creating fluid combat and providing the ability to respond quickly to defend critical structures and throughpoints. 

    image

  • grimjakkgrimjakk Tumwater, WAPosts: 192Member
    Originally posted by naezgul

    I'm worried with that few classes they will hybridize them too much.

    the array of "specialized" classes made the game great. 

    Class needs to fill a small niche 

     

    I think that that's the reality of the development situation tho'.  I'd rather see it launch with 4 or 5 somewhat generic, but freely 'spec-able' classes per realm, than wait an extra year for them to design and implement the rogue's gallery of 'special mechanic' classes that they have in DAOC.

    What are we gonna get?  Tank, melee DPS, ranged DPS, Heal, Buff/Debuff?

     

    As long as the classes we do get are unique to each realm... that's kinda important.

    I could see some hybridization working out pretty well, if it came with the weapon specialization system.  Say you want a sneaky, poison using, ranged DPS... have your rogue (meleeDPS) start using primarily bows from now on.  Or come from the other direction with a tank... and end up with something akin to a Midgard Hunter.

     

     

  • naezgulnaezgul Homer Glen, ILPosts: 374Member
    Originally posted by grimjakk
    Originally posted by naezgul

    I'm worried with that few classes they will hybridize them too much.

    the array of "specialized" classes made the game great. 

    Class needs to fill a small niche 

     

    I think that that's the reality of the development situation tho'.  I'd rather see it launch with 4 or 5 somewhat generic, but freely 'spec-able' classes per realm, than wait an extra year for them to design and implement the rogue's gallery of 'special mechanic' classes that they have in DAOC.

    What are we gonna get?  Tank, melee DPS, ranged DPS, Heal, Buff/Debuff?

     

    As long as the classes we do get are unique to each realm... that's kinda important.

    I could see some hybridization working out pretty well, if it came with the weapon specialization system.  Say you want a sneaky, poison using, ranged DPS... have your rogue (meleeDPS) start using primarily bows from now on.  Or come from the other direction with a tank... and end up with something akin to a Midgard Hunter.

     

     

    Not a fan of system like this......too much like GW2 .....which ssucks aye kick starter will give them enough starting cash to Hire more dev's and put out more toons at start

  • giftkastaregiftkastare LouisianaPosts: 6Member Uncommon

    daoc was my favorite mmo so I have many opinions similar to many other fans but to just throw my own two cents in, these are my thoughts on how buffs should work in a game without a dedicated buffing class. There is still an obvious need to affect stats and abilities of another class. I go into this assuming that bard style class will make it into the game and therefore will be the most centered around being a buffer/debuffer.

     

    pure healer based buffs-

    the direct heals would provide a buff to the characters in relation to how much they were healed for therefore leveling with the quality of heals. These buffs would last 30-45 seconds. group heals provide group wide buffs. Heal over time heals can have a similar effect of removing debuffs from allies.

     

    bard based buffs-

    twist 2-3 lines while still somewhat viable to melee. lines along the ideas of end regen, mana regen, hp regen, speed buff, attack speed buff.

    bard based debuffs would be centered on the bard (pbaoe) debuffs speed,attack speed, regens.

     

    main tanks debuffs-

    main tanks will have positionals to debuff. debuffs include heal %(bleed), debuff movement speed(leg gash), attack speed(arm slice), etc.

     

    perhaps even throwing in MT's having lockdowns like stifles and stuns?

  • VargurVargur OsloPosts: 143Member
    I prefer chants to buffs to be honest, and preferably a design where twisting is not possible (people will buy the tools to make macros that twist for you, and that should not be a part of game design). I liked the skald/paladin/warden-type chants to the shamans', and I believe it would make balancing easier. A system where different classes have different chants could make for more diverse group set ups.
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