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Rooted in place

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  • Asm0deusAsm0deus BaatorPosts: 1,116Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass

    GW2 combat is NOT "action combat".  So many face palms in this thread.  People bringing up DOS games as a comparison and actually thinking GW2 is "action combat".  I cringed.  GW2 is a clunky tab/target type of game with a aimbot mechanic.  

    It is easy to make games spammy and mindless.  It is harder to make games with thought and actual action combat.  There is a reason GW2 is a virtually dead game, because it offered no depth in terms of combat or gameplay.  It was mindless.

    The future does not belong to lazy developers who take the easy way out with spammy and mindless combat.

    The problem with Neverwinter is the crappy animations.

    Facepalms ? Your the one that brought up GW2 with the assumption I was a GW2 fanatic.  For the rest of your post it's funny because rooting IS what lazy developers do.

     

    GW2 is dead because of many many reasons and it's combat isn't the biggest reason but thats another subject altogether.

    Rooting does not equate into better or smarter, like you say the future does not belong to developers that take the lazy, easy way to do something and that is what rooting is no matter how much they con you into thinking it provides more strategy. *snicker*

     

    I will agree that better animations could make the issues with rooting much less problematic though yet this is Cryptic, do you really expect such a "lazy" developper to clean up its act?

     

    Cryptics idea of solving a problem integrating 4E into a mmo format is simple, hey it's too much work and we are not competant enough so lets just cut that all out and avoid the issues or likewise in this case hey lets just root everyone and claim it's to make strategy more important !!!!

     

    Sorry to burst your bubble but GW2 is by far not dead.  Far from it, and it continues to grow its playerbase every day.  Check the Forums if you don't believe me.

    GW2 being dead wasn't really my words and I  didn't want to argue a point about a game I don't play and I didn't want to bother to go see if he was correct even though last I read about the game it was doing fine even if there was some brouhaha about the new endgane dungeons. 

    It's good to know he's full of balony on this point too though.

    The only persons bubble you are popping is SoMuchMass.

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  • gillrmngillrmn ArnhemPosts: 250Member

    This is action combat game.

     

    This was always advertized as action combat game.

     

    Rooting dirupts fluidity of action combatness - I do not consider te game action combat with rooting. Many other players also do not consider that game is action combat with rooting - as it has been implemented now. It feels like a turn-based game, I usually get a feeling of Final Fantasy game while playing it.

     

    hence devs should either remove rooting or use a wish spell to make a first of the kind game which does not look turn-based while rooting is implemented.

  • fs23otmfs23otm Winter Haven, FLPosts: 293Member Uncommon

    Rooting is a very good thing in NW.

    It make the combat have some power to it. Tera combat is horrible when it comes to running and fighting... all the attacks feel look weak and horrible. NW attacks feel strong and potent. 

    You just need to learn when to dodge and when not to, and remember that dodge breaks you out of all combat animations.

  • goosiegoosie North Pole, AKPosts: 66Member

    So many baddies and rabid GW2 fanboys citing misinformed opinions on Tera that didn't make it past level 10 to realize that there's progression in attack speed. You know, something you have to work towards, a key concept that is lost in this instant gratification generation. Rooting is fundamental to risk vs reward. Those people that say rooting is fine on melee but feels akward on range? Those are the tards that  want to continue the bad trend from traditional MMOs where you have linear warriors quadratic wizardsI mean if there's is any kind of compromise, it would be that melee gets to move around freely whereas ranged must be rooted. It just proves how stupid some people can be when they have no clue what they're talking about.

    You can feel or prefer what you want, it doesn't make it right. Nobody here that is against rooted combat has given ANY critical evidence that non-rooted combat is more balanced (just blanket statements referring to GW2, which is not really action combat and also has A TON of rooted skills), whereas people that are for rooted combat have cited many different games, explaining the fundamental mechanic that is prevalent among action combat games. But yeah, keep up with the "I have an opinion, therefore I am right" mentality, that's the MMORPG forum way. 

  • gr0und3dgr0und3d Why, CAPosts: 113Member
    Watch the MMORPG interview just before beta weekend 2.  They ask about rooting for the CW and the response was that the CWs at-will's had no roots to begin with.  BUT GUESS WHAT!!!  It turned into a kite fest that was UNFUN!  So they changed it....  Rooting balances pvp.  Risk vs reward combat.  Real choices to be made.  Real character progression.  You don't like the delay, then customize which skills/items you use.  Higher levels tend to speed up combat anyways, make it past lvl 10 for once.
  • Asm0deusAsm0deus BaatorPosts: 1,116Member Uncommon

    The only critical evidence givin here is that, "it has been done like this in older games so that how it should be" even though not all older games did it that way.

    "But yeah, keep up with the "I have an opinion, therefore I am right" mentality, that's the MMORPG forum way."   You would know seeing as this is what you are doing just as much as anyone else in these forums.

     

    What it comes down to is preference and the fact that devs use this cheap mechanic to "balance" things to make things easier on themsleves.

     

     

     

     

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  • goosiegoosie North Pole, AKPosts: 66Member
    Originally posted by Asm0deus

    The only critical evidence givin here is that, "it has been done like this in older games so that how it should be" even though not all older games did it that way.

    I've explained mechanically how it ties in with the concept of risk vs reward, the real physics of combat in generating kinetic energy for melee, refuted all the ignorant comments about Tera combat (yet they keep popping up because reading comprehension is hard), and showed evidence that rooted combat has been part of the industry's action combat genre's bread and butter mechanic since the heydays.

    In spite of that, you have nothing to show in defense other than "it's my preference".

    So name those awesome action combat games from the DOS era, otherwise as far as I'm concerned, you have nothing to back up your (misinformed) opinion and just feel like dragging the argument on because you want to get the last word in with cheap jabs.

  • Monstre0auSMonstre0auS SydneyPosts: 46Member
    Originally posted by goosie
    Originally posted by Asm0deus

    The only critical evidence givin here is that, "it has been done like this in older games so that how it should be" even though not all older games did it that way.

    I've explained mechanically how it ties in with the concept of risk vs reward, the real physics of combat in generating kinetic energy for melee, refuted all the ignorant comments about Tera combat (yet they keep popping up because reading comprehension is hard), and showed evidence that rooted combat has been part of the industry's action combat genre's bread and butter mechanic since the heydays.

    In spite of that, you have nothing to show in defense other than "it's my preference".

    So name those awesome action combat games from the DOS era, otherwise as far as I'm concerned, you have nothing to back up your (misinformed) opinion and just feel like dragging the argument on because you want to get the last word in with cheap jabs.

    RED: Goosie, I'm gon' take a cheap jab -- You've echoed everything I've said in this thread since almost it's induction, so here goes; 'Oh, your action combat is based on an archaic rooted mechanic, and I suppose your computer is powered by coal and steam?'

    I'm in staunch opposition to people spreading misinformation, but I also believe that dissemination of this misinformation by people who are jilted or biased is no more a crime then the lack of will or desire to read the entire argument by the lazy. Let the Asm0deus's of the world continue to believe in their approach to gaming solipsism. You are welcome in my imaginary tavern for a well deserved beer.

  • phobossionphobossion PraguePosts: 56Member Uncommon
    I personally like the DDO system - you can move doing practically anything, but if you do so, you have an increased miss chance (quite a lot actually). This way you can do some tactical decisions...
  • RednecksithRednecksith Madison heights, MIPosts: 1,238Member

    Spam Lance of Faith = Neverwinter cleric gameplay.

    Then 'dodge' away on a nice little burst of light when needed.

    [mod edit]

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,058Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by gillrmn

    This is action combat game.

     

    This was always advertized as action combat game.

     

    Rooting dirupts fluidity of action combatness - I do not consider te game action combat with rooting. Many other players also do not consider that game is action combat with rooting - as it has been implemented now. It feels like a turn-based game, I usually get a feeling of Final Fantasy game while playing it.

     

    hence devs should either remove rooting or use a wish spell to make a first of the kind game which does not look turn-based while rooting is implemented.

    You do this and the entire concept falls apart IMO.  Then the game becomes more of a kiting game and in turn ranged will be the most powerful classes.

     

    I am perfectly fine with the way it is implemented now, it is stil lvery action orientated but now your skills play a bigger role, your defensive countermove plays a bigger move.  Spacing and postioning plays a bigger role.  Do away with that and you have a GW2 style combat system which is arguably worse.  Besides I feel that with the aniamtions being as quick as they are now, it isn't a huge deal.  An ability that takes 1 sec or 1.5 sec to complete like in Tera is more problematic but when every non channel ability has an activation time at around .25 -.5 sec then it becomes manageable and more fluid.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

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  • tintilinictintilinic aPosts: 283Member
    Originally posted by fiontar

    Rooted "action" combat was really a transition step between turn based combat and fully realized action combat. Rooting doesn't "need to go" because that's the way GW2 does combat, GW2 just proved that fluid, non-rooted combat is now fully achievable and rooted combat is thus now an archaic throwback to a thankfully now dead era.

    A lot of concessions need to be made in game design due to technical and design limitations. One of the major elements marking the end of one generation of games and the beginning of the next is some significant progress towards eliminating one or more of those concessions.

    The era of rooted combat in MMOs has passed and MMO developers who don't adapt to the new reality are doing themselves, their game and their fans a huge dis-service.

    /signed

    People need to read this again it seems. Especially since NWO wasnt supposed to have rooting in the first place. Balancing act...yeah right...more like "out of budget need to launch" act :)

  • JyiigaJyiiga Seneca, SCPosts: 1,041Member Uncommon
    This is one of those pointless arguments. Both types of gameplay have there place. Each has its pros and cons and every single game is different in some way.  I enjoyed GW2 while I played it. I also enjoyed many hours of the beta 2 for Neverwinter. 
  • gillrmngillrmn ArnhemPosts: 250Member
    Originally posted by Jyiiga
    This is one of those pointless arguments. Both types of gameplay have there place. Each has its pros and cons and every single game is different in some way.  I enjoyed GW2 while I played it. I also enjoyed many hours of the beta 2 for Neverwinter. 

    The argument is not if rooted or non-rooted is good or bad. It is that we were promised action combat game. However currently the game does not feel action-combaty.

    The terms like action-combat etc are always relative to the time-frame a game is released. Right now, games which feel like action combaty are much actiony than NW.

    Removal of rooting is one of the ways to make game more action oriented. Currently when they root, the game feels more like a turn based gamed covering its turns with rooting - which is not the case with Neverwinter as technically in this game mobile combat is possible.

    That is the origin of removal of rooting. If developers can find a way to make the combat action oriented without removing rooting, the demand will die out. However, right now it seems the only viable option.

  • JyiigaJyiiga Seneca, SCPosts: 1,041Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by gillrmn
    Originally posted by Jyiiga
    This is one of those pointless arguments. Both types of gameplay have there place. Each has its pros and cons and every single game is different in some way.  I enjoyed GW2 while I played it. I also enjoyed many hours of the beta 2 for Neverwinter. 

    The argument is not if rooted or non-rooted is good or bad. It is that we were promised action combat game. However currently the game does not feel action-combaty.

    The terms like action-combat etc are always relative to the time-frame a game is released. Right now, games which feel like action combaty are much actiony than NW.

    Removal of rooting is one of the ways to make game more action oriented. Currently when they root, the game feels more like a turn based gamed covering its turns with rooting - which is not the case with Neverwinter as technically in this game mobile combat is possible.

    That is the origin of removal of rooting. If developers can find a way to make the combat action oriented without removing rooting, the demand will die out. However, right now it seems the only viable option.

    The problem is you try to shovel off your "opinion" as fact. The term "action combat" is extremely broad and has no set definition. What you require for a game to be labeled as "action combat" may not be the same for the next person. 

    Maybe you need to go play like half an hour of NWN or NWN2 to refresh yourself on what those games felt like. Where you had to pause combat every 8 seconds to keep from dying horribly.  Was this a bad thing, no it was just different.

    Is Neverwinter more action oriented than NWN or NWN2 yes. is it less action oriented than GW2? Yes, if all you require for a game to not be labeled action oriented is being able to move and shoot/swing at the same time. 

  • gillrmngillrmn ArnhemPosts: 250Member
    Originally posted by Jyiiga
    ...

    The terms like action-combat etc are always relative to the time-frame a game is released. Right now, games which feel like action combaty are much actiony than NW....

    The problem is you try to shovel off your "opinion" as fact. The term "action combat" is extremely broad and has no set definition. What you require for a game to be labeled as "action combat" may not be the same for the next person. 

    Maybe you need to go play like half an hour of NWN or NWN2 to refresh yourself on what those games felt like. Where you had to pause combat every 8 seconds to keep from dying horribly.  Was this a bad thing, no it was just different.

    Is Neverwinter more action oriented than NWN or NWN2 yes. is it less action oriented than GW2? Yes, if all you require for a game to not be labeled action oriented is being able to move and shoot/swing at the same time. 

    As I said above, tion-combat term is relative to the time-frame a game is released, especially as it is claimed as AAA game. This is the next genration to old games. There was a time when the RTS system in FF was considered action combat. You can't make a claim like that anymore as world has moved on.

    I am not touting it as fact, but it is obvious I am not alone in my opinion as it is shared by many other players who played the game.

  • JyiigaJyiiga Seneca, SCPosts: 1,041Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by gillrmn
    Originally posted by Jyiiga
    ...

    The terms like action-combat etc are always relative to the time-frame a game is released. Right now, games which feel like action combaty are much actiony than NW....

    The problem is you try to shovel off your "opinion" as fact. The term "action combat" is extremely broad and has no set definition. What you require for a game to be labeled as "action combat" may not be the same for the next person. 

    Maybe you need to go play like half an hour of NWN or NWN2 to refresh yourself on what those games felt like. Where you had to pause combat every 8 seconds to keep from dying horribly.  Was this a bad thing, no it was just different.

    Is Neverwinter more action oriented than NWN or NWN2 yes. is it less action oriented than GW2? Yes, if all you require for a game to not be labeled action oriented is being able to move and shoot/swing at the same time. 

    As I said above, tion-combat term is relative to the time-frame a game is released, especially as it is claimed as AAA game. This is the next genration to old games. There was a time when the RTS system in FF was considered action combat. You can't make a claim like that anymore as world has moved on.

    There you go again... "The world has moved on" Really.. So you are the end all authority on such things.?

    I am not touting it as fact, but it is obvious I am not alone in my opinion as it is shared by many other players who played the game.

    No you are not alone and you are no more right or wrong than anyone else. It is just your opinion. 

    Me for example.. This dragon fight looks plenty actiony and fun to me.

    Watch live video from casimyroverride on www.twitch.tv

     

    -------------------- EDIT

     

    This is one of those titles where everyone can play it and make up their own mind. I think that is the most important take away. Avoid the pre-orders and play the damned thing for free. It isn't some huge MMO that you have to lay down a stack of bills on. 

     

  • tagtarsistagtarsis Lee''s Summit, MOPosts: 35Member

    I have read most of this thread and I have to say I appriciate both sides of this point.

     

    I do agree however that I do like the way the combat has gone in NWO. I think I like it better then my 8 months playing GW2. I can say even in GW2 great sword warriors had to deal with rooting on one of our skills and being rooted in a game where everyone else is not is a bit frustrating, however if most everyone is rooted I have less of a concern about this.

     

    My second thought is this: Action combat in GW2 was fun in some ways and a lot of movement but I would not call that action, what I called it was floaty...Nothing ever reacted to any attack unless it was a CC attack and most bosses were highly resistant to CC. All I was causing was the #'s above the mobs head and that was it. There was no connection to the mob, he didnt move he didnt act hurt, he was staic and just doing his thing. I didnt feel that way in NWO I had fun killing stuff because it looked fun to watch. Mobs would react to my attacks and even if they were attacking me also they would still move a bit from a heavy hit.

     

    IMO this is a case of opinion. I for one prefer the way NWO has made the combat, and it will do a good thing adding back in the Trinity of MMO's I am ready to have a game where you have to work with our team rather then independent of them. Every man for himself was ok for a bit but now our tanks will take damage because they are tanks, and our healers will have to work to heal them.

     

    Again I appriciate both sides of this argument but I find myself falling on the side where I like the rooted combat.


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  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member

    ill give a little example here.. two games somewhat similar overall look.. one uses mostly full rooting for ranged classes(Tera) one does not(Blade & Soul) to me B&S combat just looks overall much more fluid than the move stop move stop gameplay of games that root like this..  but again for me rooting is much less noticable if they have smoother transitions between skills like batman arkham asylum

    Tera

    Blade & Soul

     oops messed up one link.. fixed now

     

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • Alber_gamerAlber_gamer RomePosts: 557Member Uncommon

    I like the rooting in place, and I hope it stays, because it's true Action Combat.

     

    People who don't like it can go play casually GW2 spamming the same 2 skills from level 1 to 60. They really won't be missed here. I see no argument to be had in this instance. Don't like the rooting - don't play NWO. It is clear that the rooting is a design choice and a balancing factor, as it did not originally exist and was put in place later during the game's development. By now it's pretty clear that it's just 2 people either trolling or just clueless.

     

    Action combat games have always had rooting as balancing mechanic, from 1985 Ghosts'n'Goblins to 2013 Devil May Cry, going all the way through the most successfull Action games of history, and amongst them is the king of ARPG, Diablo. I said it before, I say it again - whenever I want to play a crappy easymode buttonmasher game, I'll buy a console. Leave my PC action games as they are. I applaud NWO for staying true to the genre.

    My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Aerowyn

    ill give a little example here.. two games somewhat similar overall look.. one uses mostly full rooting for ranged classes(Tera) one does not(Blade & Soul) to me B&S combat just looks overall much more fluid than the move stop move stop gameplay of games that root like this..  but again for me rooting is much less noticable if they have smoother transitions between skills like batman arkham asylum

    Tera

    Blade & Soul

     oops messed up one link.. fixed now

     

    adding in another link to compare a action game that does rooting as well but has a smoother transition between skills imho so it makes the gameplay feel a good bit smoother

    Vindictus

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • Alber_gamerAlber_gamer RomePosts: 557Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    adding in another link to compare a action game that does rooting as well but has a smoother transition between skills imho so it makes the gameplay feel a good bit smoother

    Vindictus

     

    Not sure if you are aware that's exactly how it works in NWO. In fact, you can queue your Dodge ability right after a skill to get out of the way before what the casting animation displays. Believe me, I played a Devoted Cleric to 29 and if I haven't read wrong, you've played a Trickster Rogue, which actually has no rooting to speak of.

    My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Alber_gamer
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    adding in another link to compare a action game that does rooting as well but has a smoother transition between skills imho so it makes the gameplay feel a good bit smoother

    Vindictus

     

    Not sure if you are aware that's exactly how it works in NWO. In fact, you can queue your Dodge ability right after a skill to get out of the way before what the casting animation displays. Believe me, I played a Devoted Cleric to 29 and if I haven't read wrong, you've played a Trickster Rogue, which actually has no rooting to speak of.

    melee uses animation locks which are fine I don't mind them much as they are fast in this game and they transition fairly well.. yes i'm fully aware this is exactly how it works in NWO.. think you are missing the whole point.. rooting is not really the issue at all(for me).. NWO has the same stop cast stop cast feeling as Tera where the animations from cast --> moving --> casting again doesn't flow as well as it should which causes a "jerky" not fluid gameplay..  watch vindictus how the transition goes between the 3 then watch a control wizard or the Tera video. It's not the rooting it's how it's presented that is the problem for me

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • Alber_gamerAlber_gamer RomePosts: 557Member Uncommon

    I'm sure some smoothing of the animations will take place, this was the first Beta without it and they're getting a ton of feedback. What I don't want to see is the rooting removed completely, because I like how it makes you think and decide when you can afford to cast one of your spells, or you should play more defensive.

     

    Without any kind of rooting, the game's combat mechanics would be just dead and come down to endless backpedaling while shooting at the stuff that follows you. And that would not be an Action Combat game, it would be a pointless crap game.

    My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.

  • tagtarsistagtarsis Lee''s Summit, MOPosts: 35Member
    Originally posted by Alber_gamer

    I'm sure some smoothing of the animations will take place, this was the first Beta without it and they're getting a ton of feedback. What I don't want to see is the rooting removed completely, because I like how it makes you think and decide when you can afford to cast one of your spells, or you should play more defensive.

     

    Without any kind of rooting, the game's combat mechanics would be just dead and come down to endless backpedaling while shooting at the stuff that follows you. And that would not be an Action Combat game, it would be a pointless crap game.

    Great Points!


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