True that not everyone plays for community. But there is something special about meeting up with a few familiar faces and working together to beat something. It reminds me to the adventures my DnD play group had.
You don't need a MMO for that. I have done that in D3, and many other non-MMO games. That is what friend list is for.
LFD is a tradeoff. As long as you agree that it ruins game communities then thats fine. I am not aregueing that LFD is not better for people in extremely limited time scales to play the game or who do not care about other people in the game. LFD is great for those people.
LFD ruins chatting .. sure. No arguing here.
But for me, its not an MMORPG at that point. I could play a Single Player instanced based game like borderlands and get the same byte sized game experience as many MMO players will get in that same play session. The difference between then generes should be the community (read: the massive part of MMO). But currently it is not and is trending downwards.
You mean online games? If i want to group, i can't play a SP game.
But you are right about Borderlands .. it is pretty much the same as many MMOs without the world. I prefer it more than most MMOs (depending on the setting, and my mood, of course).
And that is part of the point. I get that you like your game type. But please respect that I like my game type. I am finding it harder and harder to find games of my type and easier and easier to find games that fit your type. MMOs becoming more like borderlands is part of that trend.
LFD is just helping MMOs become more like the instanced multiplayer games of yore.
Also community is more than chatting. It is a reason to know people, a reason to care about who they are. A reason to seek out and find specific people to help get a deed done.
Do I care about the names of the opponents the matchmaker put me against? Do I care about my teamates in a LFD run? Exactly
True that not everyone plays for community. But there is something special about meeting up with a few familiar faces and working together to beat something. It reminds me to the adventures my DnD play group had.
Instead in LFG games I feel like a number. I feel like a corporate worker in his cubicle. Easily replaced and easily assigned into convient teams.
And while you may like your cubicle experience, I love my teamwork adventures. Unfortuneately one playstyle directly conflicts with the functions of the other.
This ^
While there is something to be said for effficiency, it's not the basis of community. Communities are made from familiar people banding together to achieve mutual goals. You lose this, when you remove the benefit of meeting other people, and replace it w/ a DMV ticket system.
I get why people like LFG systems, it definitely makes grouping easier; but I also think these same people have no right to complain that their games feel like lobby games, because that's exactly what a LFG tool does to a game.
Maybe there needs to be a new approach to grouping in these types of games, but with the current system in place, I feel like it very much lacks a sense of community.
And that is part of the point. I get that you like your game type. But please respect that I like my game type. I am finding it harder and harder to find games of my type and easier and easier to find games that fit your type. MMOs becoming more like borderlands is part of that trend.
Your preference is as valid as mine. There is no good, nor bad preference. However, there is market trends, which tends to cater to the more popular preference .. for money of course.
LFD is just helping MMOs become more like the instanced multiplayer games of yore.
Yes. That is the point.
Also community is more than chatting. It is a reason to know people, a reason to care about who they are. A reason to seek out and find specific people to help get a deed done.
You don't need a game to do that. LFD has nothing to do with knowing and caring abotu people. I make friends with people in D3, and it is not even a MMO. A friend list is probably as good a feature for a community than forcing people to chat.
Do I care about the names of the opponents the matchmaker put me against? Do I care about my teamates in a LFD run? Exactly
Maybe there needs to be a new approach to grouping in these types of games, but with the current system in place, I feel like it very much lacks a sense of community.
There is one. Look up Destiny. They are going to match random people into instances seamlessly. Even less work than LFD, and less immersion breaking than LFD.
And that is part of the point. I get that you like your game type. But please respect that I like my game type. I am finding it harder and harder to find games of my type and easier and easier to find games that fit your type. MMOs becoming more like borderlands is part of that trend.
Your preference is as valid as mine. There is no good, nor bad preference. However, there is market trends, which tends to cater to the more popular preference .. for money of course.
LFD is just helping MMOs become more like the instanced multiplayer games of yore.
Yes. That is the point.
Also community is more than chatting. It is a reason to know people, a reason to care about who they are. A reason to seek out and find specific people to help get a deed done.
You don't need a game to do that. LFD has nothing to do with knowing and caring abotu people. I make friends with people in D3, and it is not even a MMO. A friend list is probably as good a feature for a community than forcing people to chat.
Do I care about the names of the opponents the matchmaker put me against? Do I care about my teamates in a LFD run? Exactly
Not most of the time.
If the point is to make MMOs like the instanced multiplayer games then we really do not need another genre to call it. MMORPGs exist in name only really. At least thats true for most of the newer ones.
I am not disagreeing it is more popular. It is just not the persistant world of MMORPGs in the past. I wish an entire genre would not follow the market trend so closely and we had both styles of games to appease both of us.
If the point is to make MMOs like the instanced multiplayer games then we really do not need another genre to call it. MMORPGs exist in name only really. At least thats true for most of the newer ones.
That is fine with me. I don't really care about what you call them. MMORPGs or Lobby Games .. are all games to me anyway.
I am not disagreeing it is more popular. It is just not the persistant world of MMORPGs in the past. I wish an entire genre would not follow the market trend so closely and we had both styles of games to appease both of us.
No it is not. Things change. New ideas got implemented.
And what are you talking about? There are games in both style. You don't expect all styles to be equally popular, do you?
While there is something to be said for effficiency, it's not the basis of community. Communities are made from familiar people banding together to achieve mutual goals. You lose this, when you remove the benefit of meeting other people, and replace it w/ a DMV ticket system.
I get why people like LFG systems, it definitely makes grouping easier; but I also think these same people have no right to complain that their games feel like lobby games, because that's exactly what a LFG tool does to a game.
Maybe there needs to be a new approach to grouping in these types of games, but with the current system in place, I feel like it very much lacks a sense of community.
Good points.
I think one more thing of note with LFG function is that in most type of games (especially fantasy games) to me it destroys a sense of immersion as well - because it destroys the lore element of the game.
I mean, what D&D tabletop games that you have has a look for group function? What kind of technology that can exist in a fantasy/swords and sorcery settings that might allow for people to see other people who wants to do something anywhere at anytime?
In sci-fi settings LFG might make sense. However in fantasy settings, I can't see it makes any sense at all; And the effect of destroying the lore element and a sense of immersion in a game is people will start to treat the MMO like a series of mini-games, instead of a persistent world where things happen and you do them.
to me LFG ruins nothing but give a handy tool for modern game. I mean if you have a good community you may not even use it, but it very handy if you need party and don't have time to wait for guild set up or so.
I think game w/o LFG is simply time waste, specially for sub one.
I also think community is not made by obligation of doing such and such run with only such and such group, but must have more deep meaning.
I found very shame for GW2 not to have this tool and forced players to make special web site for LFG. I'm sure it make community even worse than using appropriate tool + any 3rd web can't be 100% save to me.
try before buy, even if it's a game to avoid bad surprises. Worst surprises for me: Aion, GW2
Players create the social aspects in a game, the game can only provide ways for players to interact with each other. Players can kill, create, ignore, abuse or even remove social interaction depending on their levels of activity.
I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift. I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough. I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.
I mean, what D&D tabletop games that you have has a look for group function? What kind of technology that can exist in a fantasy/swords and sorcery settings that might allow for people to see other people who wants to do something anywhere at anytime?
The telephone. Don't you call your friends up before going over their house to play D&D? Or email?
If you get a group by telephone or email, i don't see why not have an in-game interface. It is not like anyone not knowing you are playing a game.
Originally posted by daltanious Question should be "Do you love LFG-ing for 10 hours to be able to play 1 hour?". No, I do not. So I'm pro LFG system all way up and down.
I won't even waste 30 min to LFG .. that is not fun entertainment, and no place in my game.
Does it in and of itself, no. Is it a mechanic that reinforces playstyles that do, yes. As soon as a game company takes away having to know and play well with others in order to progress you weaken and eventually destroy the bonds that form a decent community. Raids and instances were not originally designed to be pugged. There is a reason why the military uses similar game like mechanics in order to build team skills.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
Originally posted by jimdandy26 Does it in and of itself, no. Is it a mechanic that reinforces playstyles that do, yes. As soon as a game company takes away having to know and play well with others in order to progress you weaken and eventually destroy the bonds that form a decent community. Raids and instances were not originally designed to be pugged. There is a reason why the military uses similar game like mechanics in order to build team skills.
Because team skill is actuall important in combat, unlike entertainment product, which the goal is to have fun.
The goal is to have fun, 99.99% of people play games to have fun so that's kind of a redundant aspect. Actually having fun every moment you are playing said game isn't going to happen. In a competative environment like PvP winning is more fun than losing. In PvE taking the boss down the first time is more fun than wiping 10 times beforehand.
This idea of playing games to have fun is not really worth mentioning when you think about it. Again, it's redundant.
Originally posted by daltanious Question should be "Do you love LFG-ing for 10 hours to be able to play 1 hour?". No, I do not. So I'm pro LFG system all way up and down.
Why should games be changed if a few individuals have bad communication skill. If you're LFG for 10 hours the issue is your inability to communicate and socialise.
Those MMO just aren't for you if you are one of those people who are LFG for more than 10 minutes, you need to learn how to communicate or play single player games or pick MMO like WoW where they do the grouping for you.
I am horrible at those fighter games in arcades, but I don't ask them to change the whole game around my shortcomings. I accept it and when I keep losing I just play another game because I realise the games aren't meant for me.
MMO should not be a charity where every single human being is welcomed with open arms, they should have standards too, if you're bad at communication, either adapt by watching how other people make groups and learn to socialise, or avoid those MMO where there is forced grouping without an LFG system, they just aren't for you.
Originally posted by daltanious Question should be "Do you love LFG-ing for 10 hours to be able to play 1 hour?". No, I do not. So I'm pro LFG system all way up and down.
Given how dull and mechanical that 1 hour often is, I probably enjoyed the LFGing more anyway.
Or rather, I would have if it weren't spent interacting with the same people who'd rather be running that dull and mechanical hour. Particularly the ones who view the dullness itself as a necessary 'content-gating' mechanism. But this goes back to "LFG system isn't the problem."
In reality, I'd rather spend 10 hours trying to get 1 good hour than 5 minutes trying to get 10 series of dull hours going.
Originally posted by Aelious The goal is to have fun, 99.99% of people play games to have fun so that's kind of a redundant aspect. Actually having fun every moment you are playing said game isn't going to happen. In a competative environment like PvP winning is more fun than losing. In PvE taking the boss down the first time is more fun than wiping 10 times beforehand.
This idea of playing games to have fun is not really worth mentioning when you think about it. Again, it's redundant.
But certainly you can reduce the non-fun time as much as possible .. which is a good design goal.
In this case, many view LFG as non-fun, hence LFD.
Why should games be changed if a few individuals have bad communication skill. If you're LFG for 10 hours the issue is your inability to communicate and socialise.
And why shouldn't game be changed if many individuals don't want to communicate?
Originally posted by daltanious Question should be "Do you love LFG-ing for 10 hours to be able to play 1 hour?". No, I do not. So I'm pro LFG system all way up and down.
Given how dull and mechanical that 1 hour often is, I probably enjoyed the LFGing more anyway.
Or rather, I would have if it weren't spent interacting with the same people who'd rather be running that dull and mechanical hour. Particularly the ones who view the dullness itself as a necessary 'content-gating' mechanism. But this goes back to "LFG system isn't the problem."
In reality, I'd rather spend 10 hours trying to get 1 good hour than 5 minutes trying to get 10 series of dull hours going.
If you think running dungeons is dull, you should not play those MMOs with dungeons. If you enjoy LFG more .. go to a chatroom.
For people who think running dungeon is fun, LFD is a good feature.
Originally posted by jimdandy26 Does it in and of itself, no. Is it a mechanic that reinforces playstyles that do, yes. As soon as a game company takes away having to know and play well with others in order to progress you weaken and eventually destroy the bonds that form a decent community. Raids and instances were not originally designed to be pugged. There is a reason why the military uses similar game like mechanics in order to build team skills.
Because team skill is actuall important in combat, unlike entertainment product, which the goal is to have fun.
Careful now. Its much harder to define "fun". Especially when you are breaking down what people find fun and the reasons they find it fun. A large part of what has made WoW a success for example is not that it is fun, its that its a skinner box. Similar to many ways in how Zynga has designed most of its titles. I personally do not play mmo's to pug constantly. Even considering how much easier the content itself must be made in order to accomodate the lack of ties and teamwork, I would rather play with people I know, or atleast have a realistic chance to get to know, thanks to having similar interests. While I do not say that my way is the best way, or that even all games should adopt that playstyle, its pretty undeniable that making actions have some sort of consequences, to have relationships have meaning, does nothing but improve community interaction.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
Originally posted by jimdandy26 Does it in and of itself, no. Is it a mechanic that reinforces playstyles that do, yes. As soon as a game company takes away having to know and play well with others in order to progress you weaken and eventually destroy the bonds that form a decent community. Raids and instances were not originally designed to be pugged. There is a reason why the military uses similar game like mechanics in order to build team skills.
Because team skill is actuall important in combat, unlike entertainment product, which the goal is to have fun.
Careful now. Its much harder to define "fun". Especially when you are breaking down what people find fun and the reasons they find it fun. A large part of what has made WoW a success for example is not that it is fun, its that its a skinner box. Similar to many ways in how Zynga has designed most of its titles. I personally do not play mmo's to pug constantly. Even considering how much easier the content itself must be made in order to accomodate the lack of ties and teamwork, I would rather play with people I know, or atleast have a realistic chance to get to know, thanks to having similar interests. While I do not say that my way is the best way, or that even all games should adopt that playstyle, its pretty undeniable that making actions have some sort of consequences, to have relationships have meaning, does nothing but improve community interaction.
Why do you think skinner box is not fun? Fun is pleasure derived from activities you choose to do. Don't tell me reward response in skinner box don't provide some pleasure.
Originally posted by jimdandy26 Does it in and of itself, no. Is it a mechanic that reinforces playstyles that do, yes. As soon as a game company takes away having to know and play well with others in order to progress you weaken and eventually destroy the bonds that form a decent community. Raids and instances were not originally designed to be pugged. There is a reason why the military uses similar game like mechanics in order to build team skills.
Because team skill is actuall important in combat, unlike entertainment product, which the goal is to have fun.
Careful now. Its much harder to define "fun". Especially when you are breaking down what people find fun and the reasons they find it fun. A large part of what has made WoW a success for example is not that it is fun, its that its a skinner box. Similar to many ways in how Zynga has designed most of its titles. I personally do not play mmo's to pug constantly. Even considering how much easier the content itself must be made in order to accomodate the lack of ties and teamwork, I would rather play with people I know, or atleast have a realistic chance to get to know, thanks to having similar interests. While I do not say that my way is the best way, or that even all games should adopt that playstyle, its pretty undeniable that making actions have some sort of consequences, to have relationships have meaning, does nothing but improve community interaction.
Why do you think skinner box is not fun? Fun is pleasure derived from activities you choose to do. Don't tell me reward response in skinner box don't provide some pleasure.
It isn't. That generally why its called a trap. It becomes a programmed response. Its a large part of the reason why there are so many claims to being "addicted" to WoW and its like.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
I knew LFG tool would suck bad, when it was first announced in WoW, and I stopped playing that game due to it and still think the same way. Especially cross-server LFG tool. It's just not made for some gamers. Some seem to like it, and that's fine, but there needs to be games without it, becaue finding, forming a group and taking it to the dungeon and finishing it is one of the fun social challenges in MMORPG's, and for me it was the absolute best thing (about WoW). Some peeps don't want be active, especially socially, when gaming and just want the content to be fed at even pace without struggles and I understand that completely, but it doesn't work for everybody. So I'm not surprised at the current 50/50 state of the vote.
Comments
You don't need a MMO for that. I have done that in D3, and many other non-MMO games. That is what friend list is for.
And that is part of the point. I get that you like your game type. But please respect that I like my game type. I am finding it harder and harder to find games of my type and easier and easier to find games that fit your type. MMOs becoming more like borderlands is part of that trend.
LFD is just helping MMOs become more like the instanced multiplayer games of yore.
Also community is more than chatting. It is a reason to know people, a reason to care about who they are. A reason to seek out and find specific people to help get a deed done.
Do I care about the names of the opponents the matchmaker put me against? Do I care about my teamates in a LFD run? Exactly
This ^
While there is something to be said for effficiency, it's not the basis of community. Communities are made from familiar people banding together to achieve mutual goals. You lose this, when you remove the benefit of meeting other people, and replace it w/ a DMV ticket system.
I get why people like LFG systems, it definitely makes grouping easier; but I also think these same people have no right to complain that their games feel like lobby games, because that's exactly what a LFG tool does to a game.
Maybe there needs to be a new approach to grouping in these types of games, but with the current system in place, I feel like it very much lacks a sense of community.
There is one. Look up Destiny. They are going to match random people into instances seamlessly. Even less work than LFD, and less immersion breaking than LFD.
If the point is to make MMOs like the instanced multiplayer games then we really do not need another genre to call it. MMORPGs exist in name only really. At least thats true for most of the newer ones.
I am not disagreeing it is more popular. It is just not the persistant world of MMORPGs in the past. I wish an entire genre would not follow the market trend so closely and we had both styles of games to appease both of us.
Good points.
I think one more thing of note with LFG function is that in most type of games (especially fantasy games) to me it destroys a sense of immersion as well - because it destroys the lore element of the game.
I mean, what D&D tabletop games that you have has a look for group function? What kind of technology that can exist in a fantasy/swords and sorcery settings that might allow for people to see other people who wants to do something anywhere at anytime?
In sci-fi settings LFG might make sense. However in fantasy settings, I can't see it makes any sense at all; And the effect of destroying the lore element and a sense of immersion in a game is people will start to treat the MMO like a series of mini-games, instead of a persistent world where things happen and you do them.
to me LFG ruins nothing but give a handy tool for modern game.
I mean if you have a good community you may not even use it, but it very handy if you need party and don't have time to wait for guild set up or so.
I think game w/o LFG is simply time waste, specially for sub one.
I also think community is not made by obligation of doing such and such run with only such and such group, but must have more deep meaning.
I found very shame for GW2 not to have this tool and forced players to make special web site for LFG. I'm sure it make community even worse than using appropriate tool + any 3rd web can't be 100% save to me.
try before buy, even if it's a game to avoid bad surprises.
Worst surprises for me: Aion, GW2
I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift.
I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough.
I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.
The telephone. Don't you call your friends up before going over their house to play D&D? Or email?
If you get a group by telephone or email, i don't see why not have an in-game interface. It is not like anyone not knowing you are playing a game.
I won't even waste 30 min to LFG .. that is not fun entertainment, and no place in my game.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
Because team skill is actuall important in combat, unlike entertainment product, which the goal is to have fun.
This idea of playing games to have fun is not really worth mentioning when you think about it. Again, it's redundant.
Why should games be changed if a few individuals have bad communication skill. If you're LFG for 10 hours the issue is your inability to communicate and socialise.
Those MMO just aren't for you if you are one of those people who are LFG for more than 10 minutes, you need to learn how to communicate or play single player games or pick MMO like WoW where they do the grouping for you.
I am horrible at those fighter games in arcades, but I don't ask them to change the whole game around my shortcomings. I accept it and when I keep losing I just play another game because I realise the games aren't meant for me.
MMO should not be a charity where every single human being is welcomed with open arms, they should have standards too, if you're bad at communication, either adapt by watching how other people make groups and learn to socialise, or avoid those MMO where there is forced grouping without an LFG system, they just aren't for you.
Given how dull and mechanical that 1 hour often is, I probably enjoyed the LFGing more anyway.
Or rather, I would have if it weren't spent interacting with the same people who'd rather be running that dull and mechanical hour. Particularly the ones who view the dullness itself as a necessary 'content-gating' mechanism. But this goes back to "LFG system isn't the problem."
In reality, I'd rather spend 10 hours trying to get 1 good hour than 5 minutes trying to get 10 series of dull hours going.
But certainly you can reduce the non-fun time as much as possible .. which is a good design goal.
In this case, many view LFG as non-fun, hence LFD.
And why shouldn't game be changed if many individuals don't want to communicate?
If you think running dungeons is dull, you should not play those MMOs with dungeons. If you enjoy LFG more .. go to a chatroom.
For people who think running dungeon is fun, LFD is a good feature.
Careful now. Its much harder to define "fun". Especially when you are breaking down what people find fun and the reasons they find it fun. A large part of what has made WoW a success for example is not that it is fun, its that its a skinner box. Similar to many ways in how Zynga has designed most of its titles. I personally do not play mmo's to pug constantly. Even considering how much easier the content itself must be made in order to accomodate the lack of ties and teamwork, I would rather play with people I know, or atleast have a realistic chance to get to know, thanks to having similar interests. While I do not say that my way is the best way, or that even all games should adopt that playstyle, its pretty undeniable that making actions have some sort of consequences, to have relationships have meaning, does nothing but improve community interaction.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
Why do you think skinner box is not fun? Fun is pleasure derived from activities you choose to do. Don't tell me reward response in skinner box don't provide some pleasure.
It isn't. That generally why its called a trap. It becomes a programmed response. Its a large part of the reason why there are so many claims to being "addicted" to WoW and its like.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.