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Trouble with immersion?

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  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,829Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Elfahiar
    Originally posted by Aerowyn

    i will agree many areas in gw1 were way overcrowded with mobs..  i won't argue the porting(lore or not) does make the world "feel" a bit more confined and smaller than a game without this sort of thing. In effect its like wow when they added flying mounts which took a lot of that big world feeling away imho. But when inside the zone i can wander and wander for a VERY long time and not hit the edge of a zone in almost every map in gw2 this to me makes the zones at least feel very larg and not "boxed in" at all which wasn't my experience in games like swtor for example where many planets felt way to boxed in for my taste.

    GW1 was far from perfect, although I spent years of my life playing it and loved it, I ended up hating it after EOTN. I mean, it became so ridiculous...the worst I can remember was those busy areas filled with packs of mantids. Also 4 level 28 giants attacking your level 20 party, yeah right lol (ended up rushing some zones like a Mario Bros game) I have fond memories of GW1, but GW2 is a better "game" IMHO - I always thought the more important thing in a game is gameplay, and GW2 is not as frustrating as GW1 was. There has never been a game that frustrated me as much as GW1 did. On the opposite, I am feeling like it's a smaller world (again only a personal feeling) that's why I think both GW1 & GW2 complete each other, they both have their positives/negatives...now I wish Guild Wars 3 could take the best of two worlds lol :)

    What?

    Jotuns are pushovers.

    The thing with GW1 is that the difference between bad builds and good builds is immense, which isn't surprising with the amount of skills present.

    I mean, monks with ressurect or rebirth?

    Anyone with self heals?

    Degen builds for PvE?

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • XepherdXepherd ParisPosts: 103Member

    Originally posted by Aerowyn

    yea i reinstalled gw1 little bit before gw2 came out to try and get the halls stuff.. lasted a couple days and uninstalled:P game is just way more frustrating than fun imho.. 

    Yeah, loved GW1 but it had too many "balance" issues and gameplay was so frustrating...attacking, targeting, clicking properly etc. was a chore sometimes, GW2 is a way better "game" IMHO. But I still miss that world and atmosphere from GW1, especially adventuring with my own heroes, following me ^^

    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

    What?

    Jotuns are pushovers.

    The thing with GW1 is that the difference between bad builds and good builds is immense.

    Yes, a bit too much...I'm not an expert player, I don't think I was a bad player either but the game was unbalanced for sure.

     

     NOW BACK ON TOPIC...

    Sorry but OP what did you think of Divinity's Reach? Must be the most immersive virtual place I've ever visited...honestly DR must be the most awesome virtual city EVER created!

  • observerobserver Houston, TXPosts: 3,013Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by NL-Rikkert

    Immersion is up to the player, not the game.

     

    /thread

    It's a mutual balance of both.

    The design and tools provided by the developers, plus the user, equals quality immersion.  /thread

  • observerobserver Houston, TXPosts: 3,013Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by FromHell
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by observer
    Originally posted by FromHell

    It´s about as immersive as any Super Mario 3-D game.

    High fantasy cartoony look and different playfields to run around and kill stuff. There is nothing "realistic" about this game to get immersed in.

     

    GW2 is "cartoony"?  Seriously?  You're just hating on it because you lack any meaningful objectivity to back up your claims.

    Oh, and let's not forget your "Best MMOs played" list in your signature, and you dare to call GW2 "cartoony" and unrealistic. lol.

    Yeah, that kind of answer makes me wonder if the person even ever logged into the game.

    I don´t care if you call the style "cartoony" or not, perhaps it´s "anime", I just don´t like to have things like these in my gaming experience. Same reason I don´t play TERA. As for my signature, you see I don´t like any high fantasy T rated MMOs. It´s a matter of taste.

     

    Ah, the old "realism" argument.  Argued and debated to death for decades.  The fact that you "immerse" yourself into a video game, and then complain about "cartoony/anime" styles, is ironic in it's own right.  Those games listed in your signature are far from "reality".  Mythical creatures, space ships, aliens, ewoks, and wookies; compared to one race (asura) is your only argument?  If anything, star wars is a "space-fantasy", which is arguably rated T, for teen.

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,549Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by dynamicipftw
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by dynamicipftw
     

    Never heard of MinMaxers? There are different ways to play MMOs you know.

    people who play for an immersive experience probably aren't the same who want to hit max level as fast as possible and get the best stuff asap.. we are talking immersion.. turning off the markers helps with immersion which is why it was brought up

    Well I must be special then...

    I definitely agree here. You have all the options to make the game more to your liking, more challenging, and you don't use them. You are special.

    Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

    Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

    Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.

    ----------------

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.

  • ShrillyShrilly Citra, FLPosts: 380Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Hardanger

    I'll keep it brief.

     

    My biggest and most immediate issue that I had with GW2 on release when I tried to play it was that I felt it lacked immersion.  Strangely, despite the polish and detail, I had rarely felt so un-immersed in a game.  I think it may have had something to do with world design, character models, UI... something that I can't quite place.

    Anyways, I haven't played since launch.

     

    I'm wondering if others have had a similar experience, and can help me understand why I feel so much less connected to this game than to its prequel, for example.

    My god man i felt the same problem I can honestly say it was the lack of good dungeon play and immersion in that area to me playing dungeons more in Tera are a lot more fun to me and this is coming from a guy that played each one consecutively im spending more time having fun in tera than it seeming like work maybe its the lack of the trinity system curse we cant break free from? When i made a character in Tera and i made a baraka priest i was amazed at the healing mechanics and the gameplay i always felt gwt lacking just something i cant put my finger on and no this isnt tera fanboyism i bought gw2 and now playing tera since it went free and having a better experience

  • loulakiloulaki PatrasPosts: 918Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by loulaki

    well the only lack of immersion is on the circles of day and night, with the nights beiing too bright and the circles are difeerent from map to map ....

    I suppose you meant "cycles" ;)

    I had the problem with nights being really too bright until a moved to a 32" HDTV to play and therefore calibrated the display using proper software and a calibration DVD.

    But I agree, nights are still too bright, and there should be a separate gamma setting for nights so everybody can fine tune it as he prefers. I made that suggestion on the official forums a couple of weeks ago.

    i have my gamma set pretty low already so when night comes around it is pretty dark overall so guess that's why it's so noticable to me

     

     i have also made a petition about this feature and whole my guild and if there are more people who want the feature of night to be addressed, its better to publicy this to the developers than whining here (or in other forums about how bad the game is like the OP ) , so far the devs of Gw2 have proved they listen the community  ...

     

     my greetings

    image

  • impiroimpiro onbekendPosts: 204Member
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by dynamicipftw
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by dynamicipftw
     

    Never heard of MinMaxers? There are different ways to play MMOs you know.

    people who play for an immersive experience probably aren't the same who want to hit max level as fast as possible and get the best stuff asap.. we are talking immersion.. turning off the markers helps with immersion which is why it was brought up

    Well I must be special then...

    I definitely agree here. You have all the options to make the game more to your liking, more challenging, and you don't use them. You are special.

    This does not really fix immersion. Immersion in mmo worlds depends for a great deal on how ALL the players TOGETHER are related to the gameworld, not just individually. So when I play by my own rules, for example not using telports, it may make the individual experience more immersive. But this does not mean that I would feel more immersed in the actual game as a whole. The moment different rules of travel apply for different individuals, it actually makes the gameworld as a whole feel less real and immersive. This more immersive feel of the gameworld that is created by your solution does not apply to all the other players, making their relation to the gameworld and their perception of the gameworld completly different compared to mine.

    TLdr: You solution makes immersion a single player experience, which takes a way of the feeling of all players being part of the same world who are subject to the same rules and laws of this world. Works great for single player games, but moves away from one of the essential factors of mmorpgs.

  • tintilinictintilinic aPosts: 283Member
    Originally posted by impiro

    TLdr: You solution makes immersion a single player experience,

    TL;DR: no it doesnt, one of most ridiculous arguments ive heard so far, it challenges even this:

    Originally posted by asmkm22
    I think it hs to do with the clouds being so close to the ground. 
  • DeniZgDeniZg ZagrebPosts: 669Member Uncommon

    My 0.02$

    I think that lack of immersion has to do something with GW2 lore and races not being appealing to everyone (including me). It's a bit of a mish-mash of high fantasy and sci-fi which is not your usual D&D setting.

    Additionally, character creator is a bit too much on the good looking side, at least for Humans and Norn.

    Combat is a also a bit floaty and there's too much button mashing with no resource management (except Thief), only cooldowns.

    Leveling is too fast and with bland story coupled with the fact that you know who's the main bad guy from lvl1.

     

    Disclaimer: All of the things above are my personal opinions and do not have to reflect the actual reality.

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,549Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DeniZg

    It's a bit of a mish-mash of high fantasy and sci-fi which is not your usual D&D setting.

    You mean, just like World of Warcraft and its 10+ million players... quite a lot of people seem to enjoy "techno-medieval" environments.

    Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

    Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

    Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.

    ----------------

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.

  • DeniZgDeniZg ZagrebPosts: 669Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by DeniZg

    It's a bit of a mish-mash of high fantasy and sci-fi which is not your usual D&D setting.

    You mean, just like World of Warcraft and its 10+ million players... quite a lot of people seem to enjoy "techno-medieval" environments.

    I think that WoW is more of a fantasy/steam-punk with the exception of TBC expansion, which was more Sci-fi. Personally, I feel that TBC was the best WoW expansion, but not because of sci-fi setting, but many other things.

    Anyway, I'm not saying that fantasy/sci-fi is not attractive to a lot of people, just saying that it might be the reason for feeling lack of immersion.

  • tintilinictintilinic aPosts: 283Member
    Originally posted by DeniZg
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by DeniZg

    It's a bit of a mish-mash of high fantasy and sci-fi which is not your usual D&D setting.

    You mean, just like World of Warcraft and its 10+ million players... quite a lot of people seem to enjoy "techno-medieval" environments.

    I think that WoW is more of a fantasy/steam-punk with the exception of TBC expansion, which was more Sci-fi. Personally, I feel that TBC was the best WoW expansion, but not because of sci-fi setting, but many other things.

    Anyway, I'm not saying that fantasy/sci-fi is not attractive to a lot of people, just saying that it might be the reason for feeling lack of immersion.

    id like to see good true sci-fi MMO. Not something like fantasy themed sci-fi space opera like SWTOR though.

  • NaqajNaqaj Frankfurt am MainPosts: 1,673Member
    Originally posted by dynamicipftw

    And not to forget that in WoW (especially after cata) each zone had a unique story that drew you in, in GW2 open world exping has no story at all.

    Excuse me? The maps in GW2 are packed with story. Do you play with sound turned off? Are you literally staring at the minimap ignoring anything that goes on on the main screen? Almost every event is part of a small storyline, quite often connecting into an event chain that tells a longer story over several areas in a map. On top of that they often hook into or further progress the plot of your personal story in the respective areas.

    How on earth did you manage to miss all that?

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,549Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Naqaj
    Originally posted by dynamicipftw

    And not to forget that in WoW (especially after cata) each zone had a unique story that drew you in, in GW2 open world exping has no story at all.

    Excuse me? The maps in GW2 are packed with story. Do you play with sound turned off? Are you literally staring at the minimap ignoring anything that goes on on the main screen? Almost every event is part of a small storyline, quite often connecting into an event chain that tells a longer story over several areas in a map. On top of that they often hook into or further progress the plot of your personal story in the respective areas.

    How on earth did you manage to miss all that?

    In GW2, not only each "zone" has its story, but also each place you find within a zone has a story fitting in the bigger zone wide story.

    [mod edit]

    Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

    Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

    Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.

    ----------------

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.

  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Naqaj
    Originally posted by dynamicipftw

    And not to forget that in WoW (especially after cata) each zone had a unique story that drew you in, in GW2 open world exping has no story at all.

    Excuse me? The maps in GW2 are packed with story. Do you play with sound turned off? Are you literally staring at the minimap ignoring anything that goes on on the main screen? Almost every event is part of a small storyline, quite often connecting into an event chain that tells a longer story over several areas in a map. On top of that they often hook into or further progress the plot of your personal story in the respective areas.

    How on earth did you manage to miss all that?

    In GW2, not only each "zone" has its story, but also each place you find within a zone has a story fitting in the bigger zone wide story.

    [mod edit]

    Even the newbie zones, such as the Norn meat-smoker and the kids with the honey (minimal spoilers), have lots of localized story elements, so I'm inclined to go with the whole "never actually played" line of reasoning.

    Oderint, dum metuant.
    image

  • impiroimpiro onbekendPosts: 204Member
    Originally posted by Volkon
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Naqaj
    Originally posted by dynamicipftw

    And not to forget that in WoW (especially after cata) each zone had a unique story that drew you in, in GW2 open world exping has no story at all.

    Excuse me? The maps in GW2 are packed with story. Do you play with sound turned off? Are you literally staring at the minimap ignoring anything that goes on on the main screen? Almost every event is part of a small storyline, quite often connecting into an event chain that tells a longer story over several areas in a map. On top of that they often hook into or further progress the plot of your personal story in the respective areas.

    How on earth did you manage to miss all that?

    In GW2, not only each "zone" has its story, but also each place you find within a zone has a story fitting in the bigger zone wide story.

    [mod edit]

    Even the newbie zones, such as the Norn meat-smoker and the kids with the honey (minimal spoilers), have lots of localized story elements, so I'm inclined to go with the whole "never actually played" line of reasoning.

    I have actually played the game, lvl 42 is my max, and I think there is more to be said here.

    I think the wandering the world itself, looking for events etc feels really pointless. What is the reason my character is running around in these areas looking for events exactly? This is the feeling I had while playing. It is mostly due to the fact that all the personal story stuff is all seperate from this.

    Compared to GW1, you had awesome story missions all over the world filling you in on what was going on in the gameworld, giving context to your actions.

    Yes, the events have stories and yes zones kind of tell their own story which is cool and fun. But often i missed the more general context of what was happening in the world and how it related to my character. My character never really felt part of something bigger going on, just part of the zerg randomly being helpfull to to npcs in the gameworld. This is how ti felt to me at least, maybe it gets better at later levels?

  • MuntzMuntz Minneapolis, MNPosts: 332Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by impiro
    Originally posted by tintilinic
    Originally posted by impiro

    TLdr: You solution makes immersion a single player experience,

    TL;DR: no it doesnt, one of most ridiculous arguments ive heard so far, it challenges even this:

    Originally posted by asmkm22
    I think it hs to do with the clouds being so close to the ground. 

    Wow you surely showed me. I'm going to asume you simply do not have an actual argument to back this up.

    The moment when different rules apply to different players within the same world, it does not create an immersive experience. A big part of immersion is that everybody is part of the same online world. I really would like to see you deny this with arguments, but you probably can't.

    Suggesting you play the game differently to have an immersive experience is solving immersion of the single player experience. Hey man you do not like the fact that you can get content the easy way? Just play it in a harder way, that other players did not have to follow, making your efforts meaningless to the rest fo the playerbase and the online world. Hence single player experience enhanced, multiplayer not so much.

    If you take it to an extreme it would say that everyone must play like me or I'm not immersed. That is indeed ridiculous as MMOs can accommodate quite a variety of play styles (most of which are within the EULA). I think we all agree that we are part of an online world but that doesn't mean people can't play the game differently. Some people do in fact "play the harder way" I run dungeons with any body, some groups are slow some are fast. Some we do it the hard way and clear every mob. The accomplishment isn't meaningless because of the differences. It doesn't break immersion to do it differently. Defining your accomplishments in game based on others then I can see where you would need a very tight set of rules. 

    Hope I completely missed your point and that isn't what you mean. 

  • impiroimpiro onbekendPosts: 204Member
    Originally posted by Muntz
    Originally posted by impiro
    Originally posted by tintilinic
    Originally posted by impiro

    TLdr: You solution makes immersion a single player experience,

    TL;DR: no it doesnt, one of most ridiculous arguments ive heard so far, it challenges even this:

    Originally posted by asmkm22
    I think it hs to do with the clouds being so close to the ground. 

    Wow you surely showed me. I'm going to asume you simply do not have an actual argument to back this up.

    The moment when different rules apply to different players within the same world, it does not create an immersive experience. A big part of immersion is that everybody is part of the same online world. I really would like to see you deny this with arguments, but you probably can't.

    Suggesting you play the game differently to have an immersive experience is solving immersion of the single player experience. Hey man you do not like the fact that you can get content the easy way? Just play it in a harder way, that other players did not have to follow, making your efforts meaningless to the rest fo the playerbase and the online world. Hence single player experience enhanced, multiplayer not so much.

    If you take it to an extreme it would say that everyone must play like me or I'm not immersed. That is indeed ridiculous as MMOs can accommodate quite a variety of play styles (most of which are within the EULA). I think we all agree that we are part of an online world but that doesn't mean people can't play the game differently. Some people do in fact "play the harder way" I run dungeons with any body, some groups are slow some are fast. Some we do it the hard way and clear every mob. The accomplishment isn't meaningless because of the differences. It doesn't break immersion to do it differently. Defining your accomplishments in game based on others then I can see where you would need a very tight set of rules. 

    Hope I completely missed your point and that isn't what you mean. 

    I never said that there can not be different ways to play the game. As long as the more abstract laws of the gameworld still apply it is not a problem. Also I'm talking about 2 different faces of immersion. You can be immersed in a gameworld as an individual but nto feel connected to the gameworld from a multiplayer perspective.

    Accomplishments in game are  in fact sort of based on others if you look at it from a multiplayer perspective, else they are merely single player accomplishments. I'm not saying that multiple ways of doing things break immersion, but it does if certain ways of playing are defined by completly different rules. The moment I am changing how the game feels to me by turning some stuff off makes me more immersed in the game world, but i would feel less part of the same world as others. Because they are part of a world where different rules apply.

    And yes it does make it meaningless on a multiplayer level. I am actually talkign about the roleplaying aspect of MMORPGS. What is the value of 'awsome looking gear X' if everybody could get it very easily in the game by talkign to some npc. Even if there was a harder way to aquire 'gear x' the fact that you would do so has meaning to YOU as an individual. But relative to the other players and the gameworld it has no value if you did it the hard way. Accomplishment in an online RPG is very much based on the other player, it is what makes it an accomplishment and makes things have value in the online gameworld.

  • MuntzMuntz Minneapolis, MNPosts: 332Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by impiro
    Originally posted by Muntz
    Originally posted by impiro
    Originally posted by tintilinic
    Originally posted by impiro

    TLdr: You solution makes immersion a single player experience,

    TL;DR: no it doesnt, one of most ridiculous arguments ive heard so far, it challenges even this:

    Originally posted by asmkm22
    I think it hs to do with the clouds being so close to the ground. 

    Wow you surely showed me. I'm going to asume you simply do not have an actual argument to back this up.

    The moment when different rules apply to different players within the same world, it does not create an immersive experience. A big part of immersion is that everybody is part of the same online world. I really would like to see you deny this with arguments, but you probably can't.

    Suggesting you play the game differently to have an immersive experience is solving immersion of the single player experience. Hey man you do not like the fact that you can get content the easy way? Just play it in a harder way, that other players did not have to follow, making your efforts meaningless to the rest fo the playerbase and the online world. Hence single player experience enhanced, multiplayer not so much.

    If you take it to an extreme it would say that everyone must play like me or I'm not immersed. That is indeed ridiculous as MMOs can accommodate quite a variety of play styles (most of which are within the EULA). I think we all agree that we are part of an online world but that doesn't mean people can't play the game differently. Some people do in fact "play the harder way" I run dungeons with any body, some groups are slow some are fast. Some we do it the hard way and clear every mob. The accomplishment isn't meaningless because of the differences. It doesn't break immersion to do it differently. Defining your accomplishments in game based on others then I can see where you would need a very tight set of rules. 

    Hope I completely missed your point and that isn't what you mean. 

    I never said that there can not be different ways to play the game. As long as the more abstract laws of the gameworld still apply it is not a problem. Also I'm talking about 2 different faces of immersion. You can be immersed in a gameworld as an individual but nto feel connected to the gameworld from a multiplayer perspective.

    Accomplishments in game are  in fact sort of based on others if you look at it from a multiplayer perspective, else they are merely single player accomplishments. I'm not saying that multiple ways of doing things break immersion, but it does if certain ways of playing are defined by completly different rules. The moment I am changing how the game feels to me by turning some stuff off makes me more immersed in the game world, but i would feel less part of the same world as others. Because they are part of a world where different rules apply.

    And yes it does make it meaningless on a multiplayer level. I am actually talkign about the roleplaying aspect of MMORPGS. What is the value of 'awsome looking gear X' if everybody could get it very easily in the game by talkign to some npc. Even if there was a harder way to aquire 'gear x' the fact that you would do so has meaning to YOU as an individual. But relative to the other players and the gameworld it has no value if you did it the hard way. Accomplishment in an online RPG is very much based on the other player, it is what makes it an accomplishment and makes things have value in the online gameworld.

    It seems on the surface a little too simple like there is just an individual and the entire player base to consider. For example, if you have an roll playing community within the MMO then an accomplishment can have meaning to that community even if there are ways of doing things outside of it. I think this is really the only way roll playing communities can exist because the style of play certainly doesn't appeal to everyone. As another example, within a guild there can be meaning to an accomplishment that extends beyond the individual but doesn't have to apply to the entire player base of the MMO. 

    For a dungeon run when I'm in a group that has struggled through it, typically, I find the people I was with gained more meaning out of it then an "expert" group that went through it like butter. That is not an individual accomplishment. I guess what I'm saying is if you want to turn off options and play a certain way I'm sure there are others of like mind. If you can find them and get a guild of those players (or any kind of community) you can gain meaning for what you are doing. Yes, you are deriving meaning from others, point taken, but it's doesn't have to be in context of the entire player base.  Back to my dungeon experience:  5 people can derived meaning from the game from their experience without requireing eveyone to play by the same rules.  

  • impiroimpiro onbekendPosts: 204Member
    Originally posted by Muntz
    Originally posted by impiro
    Originally posted by Muntz
    Originally posted by impiro
    Originally posted by tintilinic
    Originally posted by impiro

    TLdr: You solution makes immersion a single player experience,

    TL;DR: no it doesnt, one of most ridiculous arguments ive heard so far, it challenges even this:

    Originally posted by asmkm22
    I think it hs to do with the clouds being so close to the ground. 

    Wow you surely showed me. I'm going to asume you simply do not have an actual argument to back this up.

    The moment when different rules apply to different players within the same world, it does not create an immersive experience. A big part of immersion is that everybody is part of the same online world. I really would like to see you deny this with arguments, but you probably can't.

    Suggesting you play the game differently to have an immersive experience is solving immersion of the single player experience. Hey man you do not like the fact that you can get content the easy way? Just play it in a harder way, that other players did not have to follow, making your efforts meaningless to the rest fo the playerbase and the online world. Hence single player experience enhanced, multiplayer not so much.

    If you take it to an extreme it would say that everyone must play like me or I'm not immersed. That is indeed ridiculous as MMOs can accommodate quite a variety of play styles (most of which are within the EULA). I think we all agree that we are part of an online world but that doesn't mean people can't play the game differently. Some people do in fact "play the harder way" I run dungeons with any body, some groups are slow some are fast. Some we do it the hard way and clear every mob. The accomplishment isn't meaningless because of the differences. It doesn't break immersion to do it differently. Defining your accomplishments in game based on others then I can see where you would need a very tight set of rules. 

    Hope I completely missed your point and that isn't what you mean. 

    I never said that there can not be different ways to play the game. As long as the more abstract laws of the gameworld still apply it is not a problem. Also I'm talking about 2 different faces of immersion. You can be immersed in a gameworld as an individual but nto feel connected to the gameworld from a multiplayer perspective.

    Accomplishments in game are  in fact sort of based on others if you look at it from a multiplayer perspective, else they are merely single player accomplishments. I'm not saying that multiple ways of doing things break immersion, but it does if certain ways of playing are defined by completly different rules. The moment I am changing how the game feels to me by turning some stuff off makes me more immersed in the game world, but i would feel less part of the same world as others. Because they are part of a world where different rules apply.

    And yes it does make it meaningless on a multiplayer level. I am actually talkign about the roleplaying aspect of MMORPGS. What is the value of 'awsome looking gear X' if everybody could get it very easily in the game by talkign to some npc. Even if there was a harder way to aquire 'gear x' the fact that you would do so has meaning to YOU as an individual. But relative to the other players and the gameworld it has no value if you did it the hard way. Accomplishment in an online RPG is very much based on the other player, it is what makes it an accomplishment and makes things have value in the online gameworld.

    It seems on the surface a little too simple like there is just an individual and the entire player base to consider. For example, if you have an roll playing community within the MMO then an accomplishment can have meaning to that community even if there are ways of doing things outside of it. I think this is really the only way roll playing communities can exist because the style of play certainly doesn't appeal to everyone. As another example, within a guild there can be meaning to an accomplishment that extends beyond the individual but doesn't have to apply to the entire player base of the MMO. 

    For a dungeon run when I'm in a group that has struggled through it, typically, I find the people I was with gained more meaning out of it then an "expert" group that went through it like butter. That is not an individual accomplishment. I guess what I'm saying is if you want to turn off options and play a certain way I'm sure there are others of like mind. If you can find them and get a guild of those players (or any kind of community) you can gain meaning for what you are doing. Yes, you are deriving meaning from others, point taken, but it's doesn't have to be in context of the entire player base.  Back to my dungeon experience:  5 people can derived meaning from the game from their experience without requireing eveyone to play by the same rules.  

    This is very much true. Smaller communities with the same mindset would indeed solve the problem to great extent. Actually WoW sort of did this by having realms with different rulesets. in fact, if WoW wouldn't have pvp-realms with openworld pvp rulesets I think i would have probably disliked WoW even more.

    Basically alot of issues that i have with current gen games are eventually the result of the fact  that they are more and more targeted towards the broadest audience they possibly can, thereby making the game bland and generic for a lot of people who want something more.  My niche is simply being ignored completely by the bigger companies and rightly so taking into account their objectives.

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by impiro

    I never said that there can not be different ways to play the game. As long as the more abstract laws of the gameworld still apply it is not a problem. Also I'm talking about 2 different faces of immersion. You can be immersed in a gameworld as an individual but nto feel connected to the gameworld from a multiplayer perspective.

    Accomplishments in game are  in fact sort of based on others if you look at it from a multiplayer perspective, else they are merely single player accomplishments. I'm not saying that multiple ways of doing things break immersion, but it does if certain ways of playing are defined by completly different rules. The moment I am changing how the game feels to me by turning some stuff off makes me more immersed in the game world, but i would feel less part of the same world as others. Because they are part of a world where different rules apply.

    And yes it does make it meaningless on a multiplayer level. I am actually talkign about the roleplaying aspect of MMORPGS. What is the value of 'awsome looking gear X' if everybody could get it very easily in the game by talkign to some npc. Even if there was a harder way to aquire 'gear x' the fact that you would do so has meaning to YOU as an individual. But relative to the other players and the gameworld it has no value if you did it the hard way. Accomplishment in an online RPG is very much based on the other player, it is what makes it an accomplishment and makes things have value in the online gameworld.

    I think you're over-simplifying things by taking a stance of 'everyone or nothing' when it comes to immersion. If you were talking about achievements being toggleable, then I could somewhat see your point (even though I don't think it's that big of a deal), but when it comes to other things, consider this:

    We, as human beings, experience the world differently every day. How you experience things is different from how I experience things, is different from how kids experience things, etc. etc. Furthermore everyone is constantly filtering their own experiences to their own personal tastes. This is not much different than how game options work. In fact, our culture is based off this. This is where all good art and entertainment comes from. Different experiences shared.

    You talk about gear being meaningless if it's so easy to get. That's it's meaningful to 'YOU' as the individual. However, there is also a community aspect to gear aesthetics, one I have seen numerous times (to this day) in GW2. I still get tells from people asking 'wow, that's a cool look you have, what are you mixing to get that type of look?' or 'wow what color dye is that' etc. etc. In addition, with the zones now flooded with people doing world bosses, I don't think I've noticed anyone that looks the same amongst that crowd, everyone looks fairly unique, which is pretty impressive to say the least.

    However, I think the mistake here is confusing accomplishment with immersion. They aren't really related, unless that's what it takes for 'YOU' (the individual) to feel immersed. The problem w/ GW2 is it doesn't force immersion on people, it leaves it up to the players. The tools are there, the world makes sense, but it doesn't grab you by the balls and force you to pay attention.

  • impiroimpiro onbekendPosts: 204Member
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by impiro

     

    I think you're over-simplifying things by taking a stance of 'everyone or nothing' when it comes to immersion. If you were talking about achievements being toggleable, then I could somewhat see your point (even though I don't think it's that big of a deal), but when it comes to other things, consider this:

    We, as human beings, experience the world differently every day. How you experience things is different from how I experience things, is different from how kids experience things, etc. etc. Furthermore everyone is constantly filtering their own experiences to their own personal tastes. This is not much different than how game options work. In fact, our culture is based off this. This is where all good art and entertainment comes from. Different experiences shared.

    You talk about gear being meaningless if it's so easy to get. That's it's meaningful to 'YOU' as the individual. However, there is also a community aspect to gear aesthetics, one I have seen numerous times (to this day) in GW2. I still get tells from people asking 'wow, that's a cool look you have, what are you mixing to get that type of look?' or 'wow what color dye is that' etc. etc. In addition, with the zones now flooded with people doing world bosses, I don't think I've noticed anyone that looks the same amongst that crowd, everyone looks fairly unique, which is pretty impressive to say the least.

    However, I think the mistake here is confusing accomplishment with immersion. They aren't really related, unless that's what it takes for 'YOU' (the individual) to feel immersed. The problem w/ GW2 is it doesn't force immersion on people, it leaves it up to the players. The tools are there, the world makes sense, but it doesn't grab you by the balls and force you to pay attention.

    Well I'm actually mainly focussed on the idea that playing the game differently is a real solution to immersion problems.  Much of your comment suggests that you interperted my post as an actual view on GW2's mechanics, such as gear etc. This is not really the case though, it was merely an example to get a point accros, unrelated to how things are in GW2. Same thing goes for the accomplishment part, I do not try to relate accomplishment to immersion, i'm trying to show how the perception of accomplishment changes.

    Your last conclusion is exactly which I try to deny actually :p. I can play the game without using teleports, but I also know that the other players, or rather characters, are making use of them. By not using the teleports i create a rule that may increase my immersion viewed as an individual experience. But at the same time I created a world for myself that is not the same as that of the other players, thus I do not feel immersed in the same world. Other characters are an important part of the world, but when they essentially have a different world they are part of, or rather I am in a different world it breaks the experience for me.

    This is ofcourse not to say that this goes for everyone. I'm talking about people who feel a lack of immersion in the game because of certain mechanics that the game features. You can't just solve this by playing the game differently by your own rules. This what I tried to accomplish with the distinction between singleplayer immersion and multiplayer immersion. Both are experienced on an individual level and are very subjective. To me it seems that when I have to create a different ruleset for me to immerse myself into the game, then I am moving away from the multiplayer aspect of the world as other players are actually not part of the same world. I kind of have created a singleplayer world for myself, but I am not so much part anymore of the multiplayer world in this respect.

    Basically some people do feel immersed in GW2 and some people don't. I'm not sayign those who are, are in the wrong. I am saying that playing the game differently might create a whole new immersion problem. For me it would, this is also why I do not play anymore. It makes me dissapointed, because there is are a ton of things that GW2 has going for it.

     

  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Virginia, VAPosts: 2,131Member
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by dynamicipftw
     

    Never heard of MinMaxers? There are different ways to play MMOs you know.

    people who play for an immersive experience probably aren't the same who want to hit max level as fast as possible and get the best stuff asap.. we are talking immersion.. turning off the markers helps with immersion which is why it was brought up

    There is difference between "playing for" and "wanting". 

  • IPolygonIPolygon ViennaPosts: 707Member Uncommon
    From all the MMOs I've played (WoW, Warhammer, Age of Conan) GW2 got the highest grade of immersion. WoW couldn't grab me at all because everything felt so barren, Warhammer was great for the first couple of maps, Age of Conan was awesome until you left Tortage.
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