It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Originally posted by Reskaillev Originally posted by Quizzical Originally posted by Tsumoro What I really need to understand really, to get my 'foot' out the door is if I was to make this a website based game, (you played it from an in-web browser) what kinda coding language would I need to learn, what would be required in handling resources of allowing many individuals all interacting with each other like something such as pockie ninja or neopets. I will be essentially be working from the ground up, and although, a pipe dream per se, I would consider it to be a challenging hobby which continues until I either achieve... or die. Whatever comes first haha.
Trying to make a browser-based game will make things harder on you. For security reasons, there are a number of things that a browser-based program is not allowed to do, even though an ordinary standalone program would have no problem. That's not to say that a browser-based game would be impossible; it's not, especially if you're going the 2D route. (Modern 3D graphics, on the other hand, would be completely out of the question.) But if you had the idea of making your game browser-based thinking that would be easier, then you shouldn't.
Provided that you pick a language that has the needed capabilities (e.g., trying to make an MMORPG in a language with no Internet capabilities isn't going to end well), it's less about the language you pick than what you do with it.
I would actually think that Java Applets would be perfect for this, no worry about cross platform compability and very easy to get a server up and running using java sockets.
This also keeps it limited to one language instead of the juggernaut mmos that we have now, that generally use more than one coding language to get their game running.
Interesting, would you say picking up something like 'Java for dummies' would be a good place for a beginner to start and build up a frame-work upwards?
Originally posted by Tsumoro Originally posted by Reskaillev Originally posted by Quizzical Originally posted by Tsumoro What I really need to understand really, to get my 'foot' out the door is if I was to make this a website based game, (you played it from an in-web browser) what kinda coding language would I need to learn, what would be required in handling resources of allowing many individuals all interacting with each other like something such as pockie ninja or neopets. I will be essentially be working from the ground up, and although, a pipe dream per se, I would consider it to be a challenging hobby which continues until I either achieve... or die. Whatever comes first haha.
Java is good for simple games, but not MMOs. You could try using it for the client, but the server, you might want to consider something faster like C.
Originally posted by birdycephon Originally posted by Tsumoro Originally posted by Reskaillev Originally posted by Quizzical Originally posted by Tsumoro What I really need to understand really, to get my 'foot' out the door is if I was to make this a website based game, (you played it from an in-web browser) what kinda coding language would I need to learn, what would be required in handling resources of allowing many individuals all interacting with each other like something such as pockie ninja or neopets. I will be essentially be working from the ground up, and although, a pipe dream per se, I would consider it to be a challenging hobby which continues until I either achieve... or die. Whatever comes first haha.
I think he would be better off avoiding learning multiple languages, what i would do is take a good look at books on the language your thinking of using, bar that the net is a really good resource to just get started, spend a few days trying out some simple things, a key part of development is understanding what your doing, in this portion of testbeding, if something gets too confusing, or just doesnt gel with you move on and try something else, you may find that one language suits you better than another.
Dont get hooked up on whats fastest, as your making a 2d game, many of the performance issues found with mmos you can ignore, and serverside speed will only limit the number of players you can host perserver. The only thing you need to worry about is can what your trying to do be done in your chosen API.
Browser-based doesn't just make 3D harder. It makes everything harder. If you have a standalone client, you can freely read files, write files, modify files, and take as much space as you want. You can use as much system memory as you want, up to the 2 GB cap of a 32-bit program. You can get full access to tell the video card what you want to do. All of that is far more restricted if you have a browser-based program.
One big issue is security. If you load a web page, it might run some program on the page automatically--and potentially a program that you don't want to run. So the capabilities of browser-based programs have to be crippled to prevent merely visiting a rogue web page from doing arbitrarily nasty things to your computer.
For a standalone program, on the other hand, before the program can run, the user has to intentionally download it and then run it--and realize that he's about to run an executable program. Windows will bring up a box that says, hey, you're about to run a program, and it could potentially harm your computer. Are you sure that you trust the source and want to do this? That means that you have the user's explicit permission to make your program do whatever you want, so you're given permission to do a lot more. There are some things that the OS or anti-virus software may block, but they generally aren't relevant to gaming. For example, modifying the contents of a folder created to store your game is OK, while modifying the contents of a folder that contains Windows system files likely isn't.
If you really want to make a browser-based game, it's doable, especially since you're going to make it 2D anyway. But it's harder than making exactly the same game with a standalone client.
C++ seems to be the programming language of choice for AAA games. But there are a number of languages that have all of the capabilities that you need. Java is free, and you can download Eclipse (to program in Java) for free, read here to learn the language for free:
and download JOGL to give you access to OpenGL for graphics for free here:
JOGL basically gives you the capability to make a game window and draw graphical stuff on it using OpenGL. It's not a complete game engine by any stretch.
While that's built for 3D graphics, modern video cards (loosely, anything from the last decade) are all built for 3D graphics. If you want to make 2D graphics, then doing it using it using tools that were built for 3D might well be the best way to put modern hardware to good use. You can do 2D graphics in the normal 3D pipeline by always setting the w component of gl_Position to 1, and setting the z component to whatever you want between -1 and 1, so long as the things that are supposed to appear on "top" have a smaller z component than the things that they're supposed to cover up. The x and y components are just coordinates of where things will appear on the game window.
I'm sure that there are a number of other such programming languages and tools that likewise have the capabilities that you'll need. I just don't know where they are--and some are likely to be expensive.
Are you doing it just for fun and as a hobby?
Or are you expecting to make a living out of it?
If it is the formal, then it is easy ... just dabble here and there, and try one of these software people are talking about.
Don't count on making a living though.
Originally posted by mmoski Originally posted by birdycephon Originally posted by Tsumoro Interesting, would you say picking up something like 'Java for dummies' would be a good place for a beginner to start and build up a frame-work upwards?
Java is plenty fast enough, as would a number of other programming languages. And that's even if you want to do a bunch of fancy 3D things. For a purely 2D game, it's fast enough by an enormous margin.
As for C, I've never used it, but a friend explained to me that C offers you all of the power of assembly language, together with all of the convenience of assembly language. I really doubt that that's what you want to use to make a game.
These two might be worth a look at. I used to run a game using somthing similar (which isn't around anymore) but it would be a good starting point.
First do not explain your game just yet....do explain it to close friends/relatives or family but just not public just yet.
Also as your title states "So, I want to make an MMO But have no clue how to..." indicates that you shouldn't start making one of the most complex genre in gaming.
Here are some links that might be usefull for you:
And sorry I don't want sound harsh but please if you are really serious start small, you already did a small part with RPG maker, how far did you go, did you made a complete game? Have others played it?
Atleast try to be able to make a complete game, start with singleplayer games. Atleast that is what I would suggest when reading your OP.
Originally posted by Quizzical Originally posted by mmoski Originally posted by birdycephon Originally posted by Tsumoro Interesting, would you say picking up something like 'Java for dummies' would be a good place for a beginner to start and build up a frame-work upwards?
Yeah, CC++ is the fastest, and yeah its had years of complier work, and ASM'ing some kind of functionality based on instruction sets is fast stuff, if this was just about learning a language, i would say ignore the others and learn CC++, once learnt, every nearly every other language will be easy to get into.(note i said nearly, pearl and APL still look like gibberish to me, haha).
There is no reason you can't build a 3D web based game using Flash or Shockwave.
http://www.maidmarian.com/home.html is one example of a project that was started and shipped by one person.
Best advice I can give is to start off by getting a job in the industry (QA, Production, Programmer, Marketing, Intern ... anything will work) and just learn from your co-workers. All the other things people have said about languages, math, databasses, etc are also things you will need. Also don't be afraid to ask for feedback from the people testing/playing your game.
A little real world experience working for an actual game development organization (not necessarily a MMO maker) wouldn't hurt either.
"Winning" at EVE Online since May, 2007!
In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™ "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by Sovrath Originally posted by Quizzical If you want your game to ever exist, you basically have two options: 1) Make it yourself. 2) Get rich and then hire other people to make it for you.
Coulnd't he just be the artist/writer and make it work that way?
AND get all the programmers, animators etc.
I guess that is the get rich part
FOR HONOR, FOR FREEDOM.... and for some money.
Originally posted by Yyrkoon_PoM There is no reason you can't build a 3D web based game using Flash or Shockwave. http://www.maidmarian.com/home.html is one example of a project that was started and shipped by one person. Best advice I can give is to start off by getting a job in the industry (QA, Production, Programmer, Marketing, Intern ... anything will work) and just learn from your co-workers. All the other things people have said about languages, math, databasses, etc are also things you will need. Also don't be afraid to ask for feedback from the people testing/playing your game.
While it's possible to make a 3D browser-based game, insisting on browser-based really cripples you. It means that, among other things, you'll have no access to DirectX or OpenGL, which are the main graphics APIs. You can't even get access to OpenGL ES, the gimpy subset of OpenGL that tablets and cell phones commonly used. There is WebGL, but that makes even the archaic DirectX 9.0c look positively futuristic by comparison.
Not having a good graphics API available means that you have to do a lot of GPU-friendly work on the CPU instead. That, in turn, can easily kill your performance.
Originally posted by Reskaillev Originally posted by Sovrath Originally posted by Reskaillev Get a team... You can't do this alone in any decent amount of time, you are NOT a one man army. Get some intrested ppl with skills together and start working Where to find these people? If you know this, please tell me ASAP
Though, if one has the talent, ability and time one "could" do it alone...
but this is the exception rather than the rule.
Fixed something there
Talent and ability mostly aren't the primary problem.
Actually I would say talent and ability are the problem. Unless something is seriously "seriously" wrong, we all have time. Not all of us have equal talent and ability.
Seems over-ambitious to try to call it an MMO. To simply have a card-battle-based RPG which also has lobby-based PVP would be plenty on its own to implement.
In fact, High Grounds is probably exactly what you'd want to shoot for if you want to actually produce this thing. At it's core it's basically a vaguely magic-esque card battler (except the characters are never presented as cards.) It has a very simple single playre mode to fight for new cards, they sell new card packs, and then there's PVP (I thnk). And because it doesn't go for a massive world map with exploration: it was made. To try to bite off really huge game ideas for your first game will ensure it's never made.
(My background: have worked in game industry about 13 years now.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by CyborWolfTK @OP: Learn a few programming languages. C#, C++, Java, Python, and even HTML would all be useful to you. Next, Learn to use some 3d Modeling programs. Blender is free, and is my favorite, your mileage may vary. Learn to use Imiage manipulation program. I.E. Photoshop, or my favorite(because it's free) is GIMP. Network with other people who are like yourself. Work on other people's projects, until you have a firm grasp of what is going to be required. Make your first projects VERY VERY SMALL. Add content to them, or progressivly build larger projects. At this point you won't need much advice, because your going to know the stark truth. Making a RPG, stand alone card game, side scroller, or really any kind of simple game is HARD. Making an MMO adds x50 the difficulty even for the most basic kind. SIr, I wish luck with your project. This type of undertaking consumed nearly 6 years of my life, and I eventually gave up once i understood just how massive an undertaking it is.
Actually, if you have a game vision in your head already step 1 should be picking an engine.
Step 1) Find an engine that offers the features and such that you are looking for. There are a great number of engines available at varying price points. This will dictate many things such as your art assest pipeline, the coding language knowledge you will need, etc.
Things to consider when choosing an engine
A) Price. Many engines are available for the indie developer, but not all pricing is the same. Some are completely open source, others expect a portion of your profits. Read the information available for the different engines and see which falls more in line with your budget and vision.
Your pipeline options. Many can use programs like Blender which is free, others make it more difficult to use some of the cheaper less mainstream modeling software. Some go as far as pretty much only being usable with 3DS max without an extensive amount of work.
C) What type of game it was designed to make. Some are primarily focus on FPS games, some are geared more towards Racing games. Read the documentation and check the forums for possible engines. Some are for 2D some are for 3D. Some even target specific platforms better than others. Each has its strengths and weaknesses. The more geared towards your games vision the engine is, the less headache and work will be involved.
D) Time vs. Quality. Some engines offer a great deal of potential for the quality of the finished project but are going to take a great deal more time to finish the project. Some engines are designed in a way that can speed the process up a great deal, but offer less potential quality for the finished project. Figure out how much time you're willing to invest in your project and how much potential quality you are willing to sacrifice.
E) Team or solo the whole way. Some engines have poor team support, others have excellent team support. Some will increase in price a great deal depending on team size. Determine if you plan on this being a completely solo project or do you eventually plan on bringing in others.
F) Server hosting. Some engines will offer server hosting as part of your license, others will expect you to do this on your own. Some will offer it if you pay extra. Find the option that fits your budget best and go from there.
A bit of fore thought can go a long ways to decreasing the amount of work and headaches you will encounter along the way. Picking the engine that best suites your games vision, budget, available time, etc. is the first step you should take because in the end it will pretty much determine everything else that will be needed.
Now that you have your engine all picked out, lets move on to the fun part for me. Learning!
Step 2) The engine you have chosen will have its own language with its own syntax . Learning this language will speed the creation process up a great deal. If you want to tweak the engine it is beneficial to learn the base language as well because then you can truly make it your own. But learning the base language and tinkering with the engine adds time and potential headache so be prepared.
Things to consider:
A) Complexity of the language. Some are considered easier to learn than others. Some will carry over usefulness while others like DarkBasic end with that engine.
Platform. Java is a pretty broad programing language. It can be used to make games for pretty much any platform. Other languages are more specific and can require a lot of changes to port a project over to a different platform.
Step 3) Your asset pipeline. Depending on the engine you chose your path of least resistance will vary. Some work flawlessly with something like Blender and 3D coat. Others will work better with something like 3DSMax and Zbrush. In theory you can use what ever pipeline you wish but... using one that isn't the focus when they developed the engine can put you at a great disadvantage. Some times you could end up waiting for your chosen software to add a certain importer/exporter, some times you will have to go through trial and error to get the animations or textures to import correctly. If you chose your engine well though you should be fine.
A) Price. This is a huge one here. Blender is free and 3D coat only costs around $200 for comercial use ($100 if you are using it for hobby or school) but somethile like Zbrsuh (around $700.00) and 3DSMax (around $4,000.00) can be more than most indies can afford.
Learning curve. A lot of more expensive modeling software is easier to learn while many of the cheaper/free ones have a pretty steep learning curve. Blender is free and powerful but even vets from software like 3DSMax can get hit hard by the learning curve. Though after learning it Blender can be one of the fastest modeling programs around.
C) And of course, your path of least resistance. How easy it is to use your software in conjunction with your engine. Is it worth the extra effort and time involved to use something like Blender if it saves you thousands? Is it worth the cash to lessen the headache and work involved?
I like other advise starting small and doing a single player game first. You will learn a great deal along the way. In the end though, you are going to do what you are going to do. So hopefully this helps in some way. The little mini guide I posted above can help you use a little forethought. A little forethought can shave years off of your development time as well as spare your wallet a little pain and suffering.
Originally posted by Tsumoro So, I want to make an MMO But have no clue how to...
Congratulations! I´m happy to inform you that you meet all requirements to become managing director of a AAA developer studio!
Secrets of Dragon?s Spine Trailer.. ! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwT9cFVQCMw
Best MMOs ever played: Ultima, EvE, SW Galaxies, Age of Conan, The Secret Worldhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2X_SbZCHpc&t=21s.
.The Return of ELITE !
Step 1. Don't.
Step 2. Seriously. Don't.
Step 3. Making MMO as first project is the worst aspiring developer can do.
Step 4. If You still want to make MMO. Don't.
Step 5. Learn a coding language (C, C#, C++ preferably) or at least scripting language (java, lua, Flash)
Step 6. Write down the concept of a simple, singleplayer game. Of everything. Mechanics, world, what the game is about, etc.
Step 7. Build a working proptotype of game using most basic models/sprites and see how it works.
Step 8 - 99. Iterate.
Step. 100 - Publish and/or cry.
The first language I learned was C so maybe I'm biased. It's actually easy to learn because it's a small language. It's extremely fast, has a ton of libraries for various projects and is very well documented. It may not be your thing if you wanted OOP, C is procedural which is a different way of thinking. Yes you will have to manage memory yourself which is not necessarily a bad thing. You will have to write your own data structures, there are no binary heaps or linked lists built into the language. Overall I don't think it's a bad place to start learning.
EDIT: Yeah Java did a bad rep for being slow in it's early days, which it was. But over the years performance has increased greatly. Since Oracle took over though security seems to be a big problem.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.-- Herman Melville
Originally posted by Sovrath Originally posted by Reskaillev Originally posted by Sovrath Originally posted by Reskaillev Get a team... You can't do this alone in any decent amount of time, you are NOT a one man army. Get some intrested ppl with skills together and start working Where to find these people? If you know this, please tell me ASAP
The primary problem is whichever one you don't have. There are probably (relatively few) people in the world who have the talent, ability, and time to make a game, but not the interest, and lack of interest would kill the project.
Originally posted by FromHell Originally posted by Tsumoro So, I want to make an MMO But have no clue how to...
Thank you to everyone that has commented. Far too many posts for me to multi-quote so I thought I would just reply. I have read through everyones posting, some positive and some negative but none of them bad so to speak.
Now, I suppose in reviewing what you would call the game I am trying to make 'not an MMO' in the traditional sense when compairing it to the games on the market from the aspiring unique to the tired cookie cutters.
MMO to my understanding stands for 'Massively Multiplayer Online' so in short, a game played online with a large community. Which, is something I am looking to do but admitingly not something I can achieve any time soon.
I will however take onboard, perhaps smaller projects, skilling myself up and gearing myself up for what I would consider 'End game' with regards to my vision.
I have plenty of games I would like to make, from RPG's to scrolling shooters like Metal Slug. All of them sprite work, its just something I enjoy being a lad that grew up in a world of Commodores, Nes and Master System, I just really like the creativity behind it. I have always found that some games today lack an emotional impact because they go 'too far' simply because they can have have the tech available to do so. Palom and Poroms 'stoning' in Final Fantasy always impacted me more as a gamer simply because your imagination behind that sacrifice always felt more 'real'.
I am just waffling here. So I should get more on track.
1) there appears to be a LOT of research and reading to do, which I have a leg up in and more of an understanding now thanks to your kind posts.
2) I will be making some short/long games with as many tools as I can get my hands on. revisiting RPGmaker which I understand is now on STEAM and Gamemaker. Plus looking into some of the more advanced engines, tools and coding available to me, such as C++ , Java etc.
3) Through experimenting with these I hope to form more of a portfolio and an understanding in the industry to realistically set some goals I need to achieve in order to ove further. This doesn't mean 'making' the product, but being in a position where I can see what I can do on my own, what tools I need, people I need and obviously the main one, capital.
In closing, I might post on here some things I make if people are interested. If not interested, that is fine also. I shall see how far I can take it.
Also, just to answer some questions as well that I saw....
 I am not doing this to make a 'living' I have a full-time job as well as personal and financial responsibilities and I am not silly enough to quite everything to follow a pipe dream. This is more, a vision, a hobby I will continue to invest in with the means of something being fully realised. If it does, if it doesn't isn't really the end for me, its the partaking in the journey and enjoying what I do. Some people build ships in bottles, this, for me is something I wish to pursue.
 As for not discussing these ideas, I honestly don't mind. I am not worried about someone pinching my idea and making a game. I mean if they did they would save me a lot of time haha. But I believe in transpancy but I also felt I needed to explain a bit about what I wanted to achieve or make in order to get people to understand what things I might need.
That is all I could remember top of my head. Still feel free to discuss if you like and I will comment when I can. I will also update the orig post with progress, what I am up to as well. I will perhaps make some quick sketches to show what I am looking to do more clearly as well.
Thanking you for your time.