It's quite simple... pre-LFG, there was a community... post-LFG there wasn't a community. Players got used to the idea of not having to interact with anyone... hence the reference to solo-MMORPGS... where the MMO part is essentially made up of nameless individuals who could just as easily be pre-programmed bots.
The problem here is that you are confusing community with groups. Groups are the assemblage of strangers for the sole purpose of completing a task. You don't know these people, you don't care to know these people, and wouldn't care if you ever met them on the street in real life. They are merely a means to an end. Not a community. Just bodies.
thats true if they are from different servers
less true if everyone is from the same server
some of my best times in Everquest was grouping with strangers while doing dungeons
LOL, it's not about seeking long term friendships in a game. If you just want to pay attention you a small group that's fine. I don't interact with everyone I see either but I expect people not to tuck in thier humanity when they log in. It's nice to be around pleasant people no matter where you are at the time.
It also depends in the game you play. Games where you rely more on others or where the population is small will typically have better communities. Too bad there aren't any I'm interested I right now. I may return to Vanguard though and that would be one reason why.
Lets say I have a smart phone and can search up buisnesses to go to in the area. I now will have no need to ask someone where the best place to go is. I simply look it up. Convient yes, but now I will meet one less person that I would of interacted with because of it.
LFD is a huge convience tool. But it means less socializing because of it. When I play Tera/WoW/GW2 I really do not have the same level of random social contacts as I had in games like EQ and AC.
I blame a lot of this on game design. Game lets you solo to max level but puts incentives on group play. This is why games like Rift where people would run up a to a rift to help you close it and leave without saying a word. Content was not difficult and there was not really any need to communicate.
Many people forget that the whole reason they instituted this feature was because it was too difficult to find groups to run content, expecially lower level and previous patch content. People weren't running all that was available, and thus were getting bored and thus quitting.
How good of a social atmosphere does a game have with no players?
And the biggest joke is that many people who dislike this feature are the ones who had a small group of players they ran with and never cared about picking up a pug or helping a random.
No, it doesn't what ruins community is the game itself, games like wow, rift, etc are all just far to soloable for 90% of the game. Personally I blame soloability for bad communities in mmorpgs myself. Look at FF11, while its community is not stellar, its alot better than say the wow or most other recently released mmo communites.. Why? for 1: You only need 1 char, so stuff you do in game matters, get a bad rep? people won't help or party with you, and soloing in ff11 while doable is extremly slow. 2: It forces grouping, since most players have to group up to get stuff done they form bonds with other players easier, and relize there is a person behind the char and not just some random jack-ass.
Personally I don't consider most mmo's after wow to actually be mmorpgs, most are just a single player game with glorified chat systems, mmo's back in the day also used to be about hanging with friends and that and enjoying the journey, not rushing to max level as fast as possible. Most of the people who will disaggre with this point are people from the wowtard generation, which is pretty much anyone who got into mmo's after wow's release, since most mmo's after wow are pretty much copies with new skin.
I like lfg systems in these single player mostly mmo's, It allows me to quickly form a team to do something, and the randomness is what I personally enjoy, ya never know what kinds of people/players your going to get.
Worse thing the wowtard generation has done was lower the base skill of players of these games to the point that if the game is a little diffcult they quit or cry because they suck and cant advance. I haven't really played any mmo's for the last 6 months or more, simply because they all just feel like I am playing the exact same game in a diffrent skin over it, its just not fun.
Tera tried to be a bit diffrent but they messed up, once the combat newness wears off you relize the game is just bascally wow in a new skin. This is actually the reason why so many recent mmo's have crashed and burned within 6 months. Players are finally getting sick of the done to death wow formula and are showing it.
About wow;s sub numbers, I don't believe they even have 25% of the numbers they list, i think they are just listing total accts that are active.. Active as in aren't banned, not nesscarally subbed..
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Lets say I have a smart phone and can search up buisnesses to go to in the area. I now will have no need to ask someone where the best place to go is. I simply look it up. Convient yes, but now I will meet one less person that I would of interacted with because of it.
LFD is a huge convience tool. But it means less socializing because of it. When I play Tera/WoW/GW2 I really do not have the same level of random social contacts as I had in games like EQ and AC.
Is that a bad thing? It depends on preferences. Not everyone want to maximize the number of people they meet.
In fact, i am not for meeting random people when i just want a good japanese restaurant.
Many people forget that the whole reason they instituted this feature was because it was too difficult to find groups to run content, expecially lower level and previous patch content. People weren't running all that was available, and thus were getting bored and thus quitting.
How good of a social atmosphere does a game have with no players?
And the biggest joke is that many people who dislike this feature are the ones who had a small group of players they ran with and never cared about picking up a pug or helping a random.
I will always argue the dungeon experience is not the same when you make an organized group and when a dungeon finder puts together something for you.
Just look at the difficulty nerfs in raid finder for WoW.
Also I pugged priest and rogue alts during the BC era(just before LFD was concieved of and implemented) all the time and I ran unpopular dungeons (like ZF and such) many times. Some of the people I met doing this were talkative and we would end up duo questing through a zone for a while and some ended up applying to my main's raid guild much later. I met lots of people on our server that I would not have otherwise.
I do however agree that my story is absolutely not the same for the average soloer. For them LFD is a huge tool, can't dispute that. What I can say though is that I will NEVER have the same experience I had again in games with a LFD tool. And that saddens me.
Lets say I have a smart phone and can search up buisnesses to go to in the area. I now will have no need to ask someone where the best place to go is. I simply look it up. Convient yes, but now I will meet one less person that I would of interacted with because of it.
LFD is a huge convience tool. But it means less socializing because of it. When I play Tera/WoW/GW2 I really do not have the same level of random social contacts as I had in games like EQ and AC.
Is that a bad thing? It depends on preferences. Not everyone want to maximize the number of people they meet.
In fact, i am not for meeting random people when i just want a good japanese restaurant.
Its not a bad thing for the soloer. Its a huge downside for me. Because for me, that gas station guy I need to ask for directions will be less socialable because of his enviroment. I will meet less people because others are willing to meet up automatically. For me, I cannot stand LFD systems.
I completely understand why people (even the majority of people) like them though. Also note, LFG systems do not ruin the comunnity for the average player (the soloer) either. They just ruin it for people like me.
I do however agree that my story is absolutely not the same for the average soloer. For them LFD is a huge tool, can't dispute that. What I can say though is that I will NEVER have the same experience I had again in games with a LFD tool. And that saddens me.
It is a matter of perspective.
But you are right, it is a different experience. LFD is a much better gaming experience. For me, and probably for the many who like to use the tool.
Why are you sad when others are happy with a new feature?
But the looking for group aspect itself is not social.
wut?
Let's compare the system EQ used versus the automated LFG systems they use now.
EQ:
Engaging with another player for the first time, asking that player if they would like to group, discussing what their goals are, helping them get to your camp, running with them to the camp, helping them get rezzed, engaging with other groups to check for a good spot, learning about each other. Becoming friends.
VERSUS
Current MMO:
Automated LF-dungeon bla bla bla, directly zone into the zone, zerg everything for 20 minutes, never say a word and not even saying bye.
I know one of them created a community, and it sure as hell is not the automated LFG garbage they keep releasing.
I do however agree that my story is absolutely not the same for the average soloer. For them LFD is a huge tool, can't dispute that. What I can say though is that I will NEVER have the same experience I had again in games with a LFD tool. And that saddens me.
It is a matter of perspective.
But you are right, it is a different experience. LFD is a much better gaming experience. For me, and probably for the many who like to use the tool.
Why are you sad when others are happy with a new feature?
Because I used to be able to meet new people who were also encouraged by the design of the game to meet new people. There was an incentive to pool knowledge and skill from others to increase your output to be able to better endure the enviroment.
LFD is incredibly convient. But I meet much less people while running around. The groups I do find are much less socialable and games are becoming less and less about meeting people inside the game. In fact the trend is to have a multi gaming guild and hop from game to game nowdays rather than form up from roots from within the game.
LFD simply helps destroy the random bits of socialization you could otherwise achieve. The people you meet in LFD runs are not curious in your strategy. They are not curious about playing with you again.
The difficulty of making a group in old school RPGS....lets take FF11 as an example.... made them that much more important. You had an additional reason to care about your group because it took so long to get one. You are zekeofev, the leader of that awesome leveling party I was in with a day or 2 ago and I want to play with you again.
Instead oh hey your the tank. Tank for me. No one cares about your name, only that simple LFD run. No one will remember your name. Nor will they care.
Looking for dingeon tool (and soloability) have basically destroyed MMORPGs for me.
I probably cannot convice you, nariusseldon, that LFDs should be removed. For some playstyles, they are incredibly awesome giving access to content in a much easier way, content that a player might not otherwise play through. But also realize that I feel more like a number then a respected member of an MMORPG community because of the same tools.
LFG systems absolutely do ruin MMORPGs and the fact that it's even considered debatable is odd to me. The sad reality is that in order to get players to actually talk to each other you have to create an environment where being by yourself is not only not undesirable but not managable. The standard LFG tool really needs a different name, because it's not really a "group" so much as putting other people in a zone with you. It's been my experience in WoW, SWTOR, and to a lesser extent RIFT that people in these groups remain completely silent unless someone screws something up. Then you either get a stream of insults followed by them quitting party or everyone just quitting the party because a wipe is hurting their XP/minute.
MMOs are no longer about setting goals for yourself and achieving them. They are no different, in my opinion, from old console games where you advance to a certain stage, beat final boss, and you're done. The difference with MMOs is you need an internet connection and the additional step of jumping into a LFG tool before starting said "stage".
I avoided EVE as long as I could because I wanted an actual avatar, but I am so glad I finally decided to try it. It is what an MMO is supposed to be - you write your own story and what you do every day is based on what you and your friends want to do. Themeparks could have this to a lesser extent too with the simple removal of the LFG tool, though the reality is that any game that now releases without one is considered "behind the times".
It's really interesting to me actually how MMOs were once on the cutting edge of gaming (the whole concept was pretty insane at the time they started up) and these days they just haven't progressed almost at all. Decade old games like EVE and the now (mostly) dead SWG are still some of the most impressive in terms of scope and concept.
And I really think the LFG tool did a lot to bring this about (though it's clearly not the only culprit).
Please visit my youtube channel for some H1Z1/DayZ casual roleplay videos!
One thing to mention is that the majority of MMO gamers today never experienced an "oldschool" game and the community it needed to have in order for anyone to progress. From this mindset LFG and automated dungeon finders are an incredible addition because the community comparison simply isn't there.
I think it's a good option to have. Over time, people will form communities on their own servers and that will be the preferred player pool to pick from. But when your friends aren't online and you want to get something accomplished, what's so wrong with grouping up with a bunch of random people? Sure, there might be some drama over loot and stuff, but that's sort of the nature of the beast when you don't have pre-defined rules in place like you'd normally have with a group you do things with consistently.
Originally posted by nbtscan I think it's a good option to have. Over time, people will form communities on their own servers and that will be the preferred player pool to pick from. But when your friends aren't online and you want to get something accomplished, what's so wrong with grouping up with a bunch of random people? Sure, there might be some drama over loot and stuff, but that's sort of the nature of the beast when you don't have pre-defined rules in place like you'd normally have with a group you do things with consistently.
No one is argueing that LFD tools are not convienent. They are extremely convenient.
But they absolutely hurt with community. There are many people who have no need to participate in any kind of community because an LFD functions as their main/only community source. Why would any of them have need to pick from a player pool? Exactly, an LFD tool actively detracts from that community formation. The community of a game with LFD will always be less then it could of been without it.
LFD is incredibly convient. But I meet much less people while running around. The groups I do find are much less socialable and games are becoming less and less about meeting people inside the game. In fact the trend is to have a multi gaming guild and hop from game to game nowdays rather than form up from roots from within the game.
So again, just a matter of perspetive.
"less about meeting people inside the game" is a bad thing for you .. but not for me and others who like the convenient. First, i am not sure i want to meet more people inside the game. secondly, there are tons of social features taht allow one to meet people OUTSIDE of a single game.
Meeting people inside a game is not important to me at all.
But they absolutely hurt with community. There are many people who have no need to participate in any kind of community because an LFD functions as their main/only community source. Why would any of them have need to pick from a player pool? Exactly, an LFD tool actively detracts from that community formation. The community of a game with LFD will always be less then it could of been without it.
What is this mysterious "participate in community"? It is nothing but chat. Back in EQ days ... it is nothing but chat. I chatted because there was nothing better to do.
I can do without this kind of "participation".
Sure, it hurts the community, but not everyone plays game for "community".
I have played with many people all of them have different points of view on the Automated LFG tools. I find that most players that want to play an MMO solo, or an MMO like a Lobby game as well as people who never played an MMO without an Automated LFG tool love it. They cannot play or imagine playing without it. As for players like myself who have played MMOs going back to UO, The Realms Online, SWG, FFXI, EQ1 and DAOC have a real problem with the Automated LFG tools because we learned if we didn’t socialize we ended up in a very lonely world. If I didn’t make friends back in UO there were many times I would have lost all my gear and the gold on my body. However I had a group of friends that I could call on to help me. I helped them out as well, when they wanted to go take on Balrons I joined in. We grouped up without any LFG tools. We were also the type of players that flourished in WoW pre Automated X server LFD tool. We were capable of getting groups together for UBRS 15 man runs, 10 man Strat runs. The people that always seem to have an issue where the solo MMO players, or Lobby game players why because they wouldn’t make an effort to talk to the people who were looking to throw together groups.
Now I will say this, Yes as the instances required less and less time as well as more people who don’t play MMOs for the social environment came into the MMO market the cry for an Automated LFG tool grew. Why? Because the Market was starting to flood with new MMOs and MMO companies were trying everything they could do to get more players playing their MMO. So hence came more single player people who are not going to take well to putting the effort into find a group, so to keep these customers MMO companies came up with the LFG tools that allowed grouping without ever doing what is needed to forum or join a group. MMO companies now no longer care about their MMOs community they only care about their bottom line, Are they making the most money possible.
As much as we want to debate over if the Automated LFG/LFD tool has hurt the MMO community, it is pointless because it does not matter which side of the fence we are on. Developer’s knowledge the fact that YES the Automated LFG tool has hurt the community. However with the current MMO market it does not matter because MMO companies are going to do what it takes to keep their MMO making money, this means having an Automated LFG tool.
What we should do is ask this questions about how do we work to get back some semblance of old style MMO communities because we will have an automated LFG Tool anyway. If someone was willing to strike up this conversation I am sure more positive will come of it and we would likely see people willing to implement these ideas in their mmos.
Game communities were ruined long before the advent of LFG. People playing these days are, for the majority, not like the people that used to play MMO's. People aren't as social or as patient as they used to be. They just wanna kick back, solo as much as possible, then get in and out of the group stuff as fast as possible with the most reward.
Since the majority of people are like this, it only makes sense for the LFG tool to be available. Queue up, rock the instance, leave.
I don't think it really has any major effect on community, except for there being less spamming for LFG in chats now. Some still do it, but not many.
But they absolutely hurt with community. There are many people who have no need to participate in any kind of community because an LFD functions as their main/only community source. Why would any of them have need to pick from a player pool? Exactly, an LFD tool actively detracts from that community formation. The community of a game with LFD will always be less then it could of been without it.
What is this mysterious "participate in community"? It is nothing but chat. Back in EQ days ... it is nothing but chat. I chatted because there was nothing better to do.
I can do without this kind of "participation".
Sure, it hurts the community, but not everyone plays game for "community".
That is because Evryone started with WoW, and all the developers are blinded by the numbers they have puled in. They want to same thus they make the same. but they all fail hard.
You cannot say that the masses like WoW over old school EQ they have never been to old school EQ. The masses might actually like it . Stop spouting baseless nonsense.
You like your bite-size gaming, I like my community and if i look around this board alot of other like it with me.
LFD is incredibly convient. But I meet much less people while running around. The groups I do find are much less socialable and games are becoming less and less about meeting people inside the game. In fact the trend is to have a multi gaming guild and hop from game to game nowdays rather than form up from roots from within the game.
So again, just a matter of perspetive.
"less about meeting people inside the game" is a bad thing for you .. but not for me and others who like the convenient. First, i am not sure i want to meet more people inside the game. secondly, there are tons of social features taht allow one to meet people OUTSIDE of a single game.
Meeting people inside a game is not important to me at all.
LFD is a tradeoff. As long as you agree that it ruins game communities then thats fine. I am not aregueing that LFD is not better for people in extremely limited time scales to play the game or who do not care about other people in the game. LFD is great for those people.
But for me, its not an MMORPG at that point. I could play a Single Player instanced based game like borderlands and get the same byte sized game experience as many MMO players will get in that same play session. The difference between then generes should be the community (read: the massive part of MMO). But currently it is not and is trending downwards.
So its not really a matter of perspective that LFGs help ruin in game communities. You agree with me on that point. They DO help ruin in game communities, you just don't care about in game communities.
But they absolutely hurt with community. There are many people who have no need to participate in any kind of community because an LFD functions as their main/only community source. Why would any of them have need to pick from a player pool? Exactly, an LFD tool actively detracts from that community formation. The community of a game with LFD will always be less then it could of been without it.
What is this mysterious "participate in community"? It is nothing but chat. Back in EQ days ... it is nothing but chat. I chatted because there was nothing better to do.
I can do without this kind of "participation".
Sure, it hurts the community, but not everyone plays game for "community".
True that not everyone plays for community. But there is something special about meeting up with a few familiar faces and working together to beat something. It reminds me to the adventures my DnD play group had.
Instead in LFG games I feel like a number. I feel like a corporate worker in his cubicle. Easily replaced and easily assigned into convient teams.
And while you may like your cubicle experience, I love my teamwork adventures. Unfortuneately one playstyle directly conflicts with the functions of the other.
LFD is a tradeoff. As long as you agree that it ruins game communities then thats fine. I am not aregueing that LFD is not better for people in extremely limited time scales to play the game or who do not care about other people in the game. LFD is great for those people.
LFD ruins chatting .. sure. No arguing here.
But for me, its not an MMORPG at that point. I could play a Single Player instanced based game like borderlands and get the same byte sized game experience as many MMO players will get in that same play session. The difference between then generes should be the community (read: the massive part of MMO). But currently it is not and is trending downwards.
You mean online games? If i want to group, i can't play a SP game.
But you are right about Borderlands .. it is pretty much the same as many MMOs without the world. I prefer it more than most MMOs (depending on the setting, and my mood, of course).
Comments
thats true if they are from different servers
less true if everyone is from the same server
some of my best times in Everquest was grouping with strangers while doing dungeons
- and making new friends aka the pickup group
EQ2 fan sites
It also depends in the game you play. Games where you rely more on others or where the population is small will typically have better communities. Too bad there aren't any I'm interested I right now. I may return to Vanguard though and that would be one reason why.
LFD certainly does ruin socializing.
Lets say I have a smart phone and can search up buisnesses to go to in the area. I now will have no need to ask someone where the best place to go is. I simply look it up. Convient yes, but now I will meet one less person that I would of interacted with because of it.
LFD is a huge convience tool. But it means less socializing because of it. When I play Tera/WoW/GW2 I really do not have the same level of random social contacts as I had in games like EQ and AC.
I blame a lot of this on game design. Game lets you solo to max level but puts incentives on group play. This is why games like Rift where people would run up a to a rift to help you close it and leave without saying a word. Content was not difficult and there was not really any need to communicate.
I miss old school games styles so much.
Many people forget that the whole reason they instituted this feature was because it was too difficult to find groups to run content, expecially lower level and previous patch content. People weren't running all that was available, and thus were getting bored and thus quitting.
How good of a social atmosphere does a game have with no players?
And the biggest joke is that many people who dislike this feature are the ones who had a small group of players they ran with and never cared about picking up a pug or helping a random.
No, it doesn't what ruins community is the game itself, games like wow, rift, etc are all just far to soloable for 90% of the game. Personally I blame soloability for bad communities in mmorpgs myself. Look at FF11, while its community is not stellar, its alot better than say the wow or most other recently released mmo communites.. Why? for 1: You only need 1 char, so stuff you do in game matters, get a bad rep? people won't help or party with you, and soloing in ff11 while doable is extremly slow. 2: It forces grouping, since most players have to group up to get stuff done they form bonds with other players easier, and relize there is a person behind the char and not just some random jack-ass.
Personally I don't consider most mmo's after wow to actually be mmorpgs, most are just a single player game with glorified chat systems, mmo's back in the day also used to be about hanging with friends and that and enjoying the journey, not rushing to max level as fast as possible. Most of the people who will disaggre with this point are people from the wowtard generation, which is pretty much anyone who got into mmo's after wow's release, since most mmo's after wow are pretty much copies with new skin.
I like lfg systems in these single player mostly mmo's, It allows me to quickly form a team to do something, and the randomness is what I personally enjoy, ya never know what kinds of people/players your going to get.
Worse thing the wowtard generation has done was lower the base skill of players of these games to the point that if the game is a little diffcult they quit or cry because they suck and cant advance. I haven't really played any mmo's for the last 6 months or more, simply because they all just feel like I am playing the exact same game in a diffrent skin over it, its just not fun.
Tera tried to be a bit diffrent but they messed up, once the combat newness wears off you relize the game is just bascally wow in a new skin. This is actually the reason why so many recent mmo's have crashed and burned within 6 months. Players are finally getting sick of the done to death wow formula and are showing it.
About wow;s sub numbers, I don't believe they even have 25% of the numbers they list, i think they are just listing total accts that are active.. Active as in aren't banned, not nesscarally subbed..
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!
Is that a bad thing? It depends on preferences. Not everyone want to maximize the number of people they meet.
In fact, i am not for meeting random people when i just want a good japanese restaurant.
I will always argue the dungeon experience is not the same when you make an organized group and when a dungeon finder puts together something for you.
Just look at the difficulty nerfs in raid finder for WoW.
Also I pugged priest and rogue alts during the BC era(just before LFD was concieved of and implemented) all the time and I ran unpopular dungeons (like ZF and such) many times. Some of the people I met doing this were talkative and we would end up duo questing through a zone for a while and some ended up applying to my main's raid guild much later. I met lots of people on our server that I would not have otherwise.
I do however agree that my story is absolutely not the same for the average soloer. For them LFD is a huge tool, can't dispute that. What I can say though is that I will NEVER have the same experience I had again in games with a LFD tool. And that saddens me.
Its not a bad thing for the soloer. Its a huge downside for me. Because for me, that gas station guy I need to ask for directions will be less socialable because of his enviroment. I will meet less people because others are willing to meet up automatically. For me, I cannot stand LFD systems.
I completely understand why people (even the majority of people) like them though. Also note, LFG systems do not ruin the comunnity for the average player (the soloer) either. They just ruin it for people like me.
It is a matter of perspective.
But you are right, it is a different experience. LFD is a much better gaming experience. For me, and probably for the many who like to use the tool.
Why are you sad when others are happy with a new feature?
Yes, EXACTLY.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Because I used to be able to meet new people who were also encouraged by the design of the game to meet new people. There was an incentive to pool knowledge and skill from others to increase your output to be able to better endure the enviroment.
LFD is incredibly convient. But I meet much less people while running around. The groups I do find are much less socialable and games are becoming less and less about meeting people inside the game. In fact the trend is to have a multi gaming guild and hop from game to game nowdays rather than form up from roots from within the game.
LFD simply helps destroy the random bits of socialization you could otherwise achieve. The people you meet in LFD runs are not curious in your strategy. They are not curious about playing with you again.
The difficulty of making a group in old school RPGS....lets take FF11 as an example.... made them that much more important. You had an additional reason to care about your group because it took so long to get one. You are zekeofev, the leader of that awesome leveling party I was in with a day or 2 ago and I want to play with you again.
Instead oh hey your the tank. Tank for me. No one cares about your name, only that simple LFD run. No one will remember your name. Nor will they care.
Looking for dingeon tool (and soloability) have basically destroyed MMORPGs for me.
I probably cannot convice you, nariusseldon, that LFDs should be removed. For some playstyles, they are incredibly awesome giving access to content in a much easier way, content that a player might not otherwise play through. But also realize that I feel more like a number then a respected member of an MMORPG community because of the same tools.
nice post by CalmOceans -- good description of the EQ lfg experience
EQ2 fan sites
LFG systems absolutely do ruin MMORPGs and the fact that it's even considered debatable is odd to me. The sad reality is that in order to get players to actually talk to each other you have to create an environment where being by yourself is not only not undesirable but not managable. The standard LFG tool really needs a different name, because it's not really a "group" so much as putting other people in a zone with you. It's been my experience in WoW, SWTOR, and to a lesser extent RIFT that people in these groups remain completely silent unless someone screws something up. Then you either get a stream of insults followed by them quitting party or everyone just quitting the party because a wipe is hurting their XP/minute.
MMOs are no longer about setting goals for yourself and achieving them. They are no different, in my opinion, from old console games where you advance to a certain stage, beat final boss, and you're done. The difference with MMOs is you need an internet connection and the additional step of jumping into a LFG tool before starting said "stage".
I avoided EVE as long as I could because I wanted an actual avatar, but I am so glad I finally decided to try it. It is what an MMO is supposed to be - you write your own story and what you do every day is based on what you and your friends want to do. Themeparks could have this to a lesser extent too with the simple removal of the LFG tool, though the reality is that any game that now releases without one is considered "behind the times".
It's really interesting to me actually how MMOs were once on the cutting edge of gaming (the whole concept was pretty insane at the time they started up) and these days they just haven't progressed almost at all. Decade old games like EVE and the now (mostly) dead SWG are still some of the most impressive in terms of scope and concept.
And I really think the LFG tool did a lot to bring this about (though it's clearly not the only culprit).
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No one is argueing that LFD tools are not convienent. They are extremely convenient.
But they absolutely hurt with community. There are many people who have no need to participate in any kind of community because an LFD functions as their main/only community source. Why would any of them have need to pick from a player pool? Exactly, an LFD tool actively detracts from that community formation. The community of a game with LFD will always be less then it could of been without it.
So again, just a matter of perspetive.
"less about meeting people inside the game" is a bad thing for you .. but not for me and others who like the convenient. First, i am not sure i want to meet more people inside the game. secondly, there are tons of social features taht allow one to meet people OUTSIDE of a single game.
Meeting people inside a game is not important to me at all.
What is this mysterious "participate in community"? It is nothing but chat. Back in EQ days ... it is nothing but chat. I chatted because there was nothing better to do.
I can do without this kind of "participation".
Sure, it hurts the community, but not everyone plays game for "community".
I have played with many people all of them have different points of view on the Automated LFG tools. I find that most players that want to play an MMO solo, or an MMO like a Lobby game as well as people who never played an MMO without an Automated LFG tool love it. They cannot play or imagine playing without it. As for players like myself who have played MMOs going back to UO, The Realms Online, SWG, FFXI, EQ1 and DAOC have a real problem with the Automated LFG tools because we learned if we didn’t socialize we ended up in a very lonely world. If I didn’t make friends back in UO there were many times I would have lost all my gear and the gold on my body. However I had a group of friends that I could call on to help me. I helped them out as well, when they wanted to go take on Balrons I joined in. We grouped up without any LFG tools. We were also the type of players that flourished in WoW pre Automated X server LFD tool. We were capable of getting groups together for UBRS 15 man runs, 10 man Strat runs. The people that always seem to have an issue where the solo MMO players, or Lobby game players why because they wouldn’t make an effort to talk to the people who were looking to throw together groups.
Now I will say this, Yes as the instances required less and less time as well as more people who don’t play MMOs for the social environment came into the MMO market the cry for an Automated LFG tool grew. Why? Because the Market was starting to flood with new MMOs and MMO companies were trying everything they could do to get more players playing their MMO. So hence came more single player people who are not going to take well to putting the effort into find a group, so to keep these customers MMO companies came up with the LFG tools that allowed grouping without ever doing what is needed to forum or join a group. MMO companies now no longer care about their MMOs community they only care about their bottom line, Are they making the most money possible.
As much as we want to debate over if the Automated LFG/LFD tool has hurt the MMO community, it is pointless because it does not matter which side of the fence we are on. Developer’s knowledge the fact that YES the Automated LFG tool has hurt the community. However with the current MMO market it does not matter because MMO companies are going to do what it takes to keep their MMO making money, this means having an Automated LFG tool.
What we should do is ask this questions about how do we work to get back some semblance of old style MMO communities because we will have an automated LFG Tool anyway. If someone was willing to strike up this conversation I am sure more positive will come of it and we would likely see people willing to implement these ideas in their mmos.
Game communities were ruined long before the advent of LFG. People playing these days are, for the majority, not like the people that used to play MMO's. People aren't as social or as patient as they used to be. They just wanna kick back, solo as much as possible, then get in and out of the group stuff as fast as possible with the most reward.
Since the majority of people are like this, it only makes sense for the LFG tool to be available. Queue up, rock the instance, leave.
I don't think it really has any major effect on community, except for there being less spamming for LFG in chats now. Some still do it, but not many.
That is because Evryone started with WoW, and all the developers are blinded by the numbers they have puled in. They want to same thus they make the same. but they all fail hard.
You cannot say that the masses like WoW over old school EQ they have never been to old school EQ. The masses might actually like it . Stop spouting baseless nonsense.
You like your bite-size gaming, I like my community and if i look around this board alot of other like it with me.
LFD is a tradeoff. As long as you agree that it ruins game communities then thats fine. I am not aregueing that LFD is not better for people in extremely limited time scales to play the game or who do not care about other people in the game. LFD is great for those people.
But for me, its not an MMORPG at that point. I could play a Single Player instanced based game like borderlands and get the same byte sized game experience as many MMO players will get in that same play session. The difference between then generes should be the community (read: the massive part of MMO). But currently it is not and is trending downwards.
So its not really a matter of perspective that LFGs help ruin in game communities. You agree with me on that point. They DO help ruin in game communities, you just don't care about in game communities.
True that not everyone plays for community. But there is something special about meeting up with a few familiar faces and working together to beat something. It reminds me to the adventures my DnD play group had.
Instead in LFG games I feel like a number. I feel like a corporate worker in his cubicle. Easily replaced and easily assigned into convient teams.
And while you may like your cubicle experience, I love my teamwork adventures. Unfortuneately one playstyle directly conflicts with the functions of the other.