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Originally posted by Alberel Originally posted by Corehaven I've never understood the argument that it ruins a community. In fact it seems like incredibly backward logic to me. If anything I'd assume anything that makes it easier to unite with other players would actually bring the community together. Not apart. It's like arguing that a GPS makes it harder to reach your destination. Sometimes I just don't understand where people are coming from. A lot of the time actually. The obviously intelligent folks that make concrete, well thought out points? I think I get them most of the time even if I don't always agree with them. Then there are the other folks.
You're making an incorrect assumption that simply being in a group is a community building exercise. In actuality it is communication between players in said group that builds relationships and ultimately a community. You cannot form a relationship with someone without communication of some kind.
With regards to the GPS you have it wrong; it's like arguing that using a GPS all the time makes you less capable of navigating without one, which is true of any tool or device humans come to rely on.
Players come to rely upon the automated LFG tools and no longer bother to communicate any more. It completely replaces the part where players used to talk to each other to find other people for their group. It may make it easier to play together with other people but that alone does not make a community. You need that forced communication to break the ice and get players talking in order for them to find friendships, without it they'll just follow in silence.
I know a lot of people like to rebutt that argument by saying 'you can still be social'. Yes I can but I alone cannot build a community, you need everyone socialising to do that and most people are too busy chasing their carrots to bother unless forced.
I talked crap in /group chat back in Vanilla/TBC when there was no LFG. Then I talked crap in /group chat after there was the LFG. It's true that LFG might discourage people to speak in the chat but from my experience every time I've tried to strike up a conversation in a group people would usually reply I have added a lot of people as friends from LFG parties. So it's quite possible to talk to other people when you're using the tool. No one is stopping you (but yourself?). I think the problem was not with the LFG tool. I think the problem was with the difficulty of the instances. In Vanilla (looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong instances) and in TBC heroics (ultra difficult compared to now) the difference was that a dungeon could take you hours to finish. So people will of course talk and especially so when they wipe. I think that LFG is perfectly fine. I don't miss spamming LFG in the chat. I think if instances took way long than 20 min, e.g. 1-2 hours and people wiped, they would talk.
To sum up, LFG = great, have instances which are longer and more difficult AND make it so people don't want to leave a group once they've joined. 15-30 min penalty is a joke. Go for 6 hours
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Originally posted by Corehaven I've never understood the argument that it ruins a community. In fact it seems like incredibly backward logic to me. If anything I'd assume anything that makes it easier to unite with other players would actually bring the community together. Not apart. It's like arguing that a GPS makes it harder to reach your destination. Sometimes I just don't understand where people are coming from. A lot of the time actually. The obviously intelligent folks that make concrete, well thought out points? I think I get them most of the time even if I don't always agree with them. Then there are the other folks.
You bring up a good point in orange, a GPS may make reaching the destination easier however it also has a trade off. Is an edventure/trip realy thay exciting when u know exactly how to get there and told exactly what to do every step of the way??? I find using a GPS makes a trip much less memorable than not having the direction and going into the unknown even though u may get lost once or twice and may be a little slower to get there but is that realy a bad thing??? You never forget that one time you get lost trying to get somewhere.
GPS simply give u 1 direction u can go while not using one can leave you on an adventure that you may not forget, sure it may be a little slower but its definetly the one i prefer to take. (GPS is a good way to describe questing in games after WoW aswell, All those quests i did in WoW i havant remember a single one but i can remember that one epic adventure i took trying to get from Qeynos to Freeport in Everquest may of took longer but was definetly worth it)
From my WoW experience, there's two kind of LFG: one that groups you with people from YOUR SERVER, and the other that doesn't.
When you're randomly grouped within your server (like WoW during WotLK) the system actually work because you meet people that you see again and again, even outside the dungeon. I made lots of friends this way! It's also a nice way to recrute people for your guild. It works because if someone is a douche, it will be known on the whole realm and he will be ignored fast.
Of course the problem is with the second kind of LFG. When you're grouped with people you will *never* see again.
It's like arguing that a GPS makes it harder to reach your destination.
GPS makes it easier. Know what people did before GPS? They got out of their car and aksed people directions, they socialised, I have shown many foreigners directions, I communicated and actually one of my friends is someone who I helped with dirctions.
In Everquest the world was huge and you often needed directions, often times I walked along with people for over 20 minutes just to show them some place. Hell, in Everquest half the challenge was making it alive to the group.
Nowadays people sit in some LFG queue like a stupid robot on a production chain, waiting for their number, to get transported into some dungeon and to complete their stupid dungeon and get out without saying a word. I would rather work on an actual production chain than be one of those WoW zombies.
I suggest a diffrent LFG system.
This one sucks it indeed destroys what little community forming there is. I don't even say a word inside a dungeon anymore. That is also because dungeons anrt random. Your doing the exact same thing evry time and i only can get pissed off at the many retards doing less DPS then me the Tank.
So i suggest 2 things. open world dungeons with lots and patrols and traps. youl have to be on your toes in there or you will wipe your group by overpulling things.
And for the LFG system. Instead of this push a button and join a random player thing. they should just simply make a list. U want to do a dungeon? then u just simply put yourself on that list wich tells other player your name class spec and lvl. People can pick u up from there. u don't have to wait for hours because people youl be picked out from that list. and if you are a retard the community wil punish you by not giving you invites because hey they can see your name.
Everything known to man ruins "Community". That's the best thing about conceptuals, ceaseless slippery slopes.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by Loke666 It is cross server dungeons that destroy the community. No regular dungeon finders just add more chat in the main town and that doesnt really affect the server community, but when you play with other players from the same server you get to know people and at least I tends to do other stuff with people I like.
It's both, cross server is just way worse. Vindictus has a dungeon finder that doesn't work cross-server and no one, I mean no one says anything to other people. You can play in that game with 5 other people for 30 minutes without a single person having said anything. You can say hi and not a single person will say hi to you back, no one says a single word.
You don't need to talk to other people if grouping is trivial, you don't need to engage with other people, you're now a factory worker with premade chores, you click the LFG button, you get automatically ported into some dungeon with strangers, you finsish the dungeon while keeping your mouth shut because who cares about making friends, you finsih your job and you're done. The only thing that matters in those games like WoW and Vindictus is your stats, no one gives a damn who you are, you're just another number on the automated LFG factory worker list.
In new MMO I am lucky to even talk to another person, hell I am lucky if someone even says hi to another person instead of rushing by them because time counts, gotta get those uber leet stats and that gearscore so everyone can see how uber I am, since friends don't exist in those games, you're just a means to an end. In EQ half the time was spent talking to other people, socialising, in new MMO you need to practically beg to get a stranger to even say hi.
Originally posted by HeroEvermore No one ruins the community but themselves. If you are adaptable in real life you can as well be in a game to accomodate your needs wether it be raiding or leveling or trading, etc. A person can make his community be good or bad. The choice is yours. I can mute almost every idiot in every game ever made. Most of the poeple who complain about community are actually the ones feeding into the problem. Case Closed. Carmen Sandiego solved the mystery.
LFG is just a tool. You don't have to use it if you don't want to.
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No one ruins the community but themselves Case Closed.
No one ruins the community but themselves
That's a terrible cop-out and you know it, or you never experienced what old MMO were like.
I tried Guild Wars after playing Everquest and the difference was night and day.
I could walk up to a person in pre-luclin Everquest and before I could reach my keys I would have a person throwing buffs on me and saying hi.
In Guild wars it felt like I was thrown into a world where people lost their ability to communicate, no one said anything. I couldn't believe it and thought it was some fluke. But I saw this pattern in more MMO, I saw it in WoW, I saw it in Vindictus, I saw it in FFXIV, I saw it everywhere.
The exception to this rule was Vanguard, people didn't communicate nearly as much as in EQ, but they communicate much more than in games like guild wars.
Communication stands and falls from game design.
Here is an example of Everquest. People sitting next to each other, talking to each other, trading things, making groups.
Does this happen in new MMO? No Sir, it does not. In new MMO you join the factory chain called the LFD dungeon seeker and complete your meaningless dungeon, and you keep using that tool because it's far easier to just be a little robot than to actually make friends, because if you had any friends you wouldn't join the LFD. Socialising be damned.
Originally posted by CalmOceans No one ruins the community but themselves Case Closed.
Does this happen in new MMO? No Sir, it does not.
Well, that's all up to to the people, Some people like spending hours in game just chatting. some pople just want to play the game.
Also, a lot of people are using Skype, Teamspeak or Mumble to communicate, which is far better then typing, especially in the middle of a fight.
Originally posted by Emrendil Originally posted by CalmOceans No one ruins the community but themselves Case Closed.
It's not up to the people, people haven't suddenly changed so dramatically in 10 years time that we went from everyone socialising to everyone being reclusive zombies.
It's the game design. If you don't give people the right incentive, right tools and right environment to socialise you will have no socialising.
Also, a lot of people are using Skype, Teamspeak or Mumble to communicate, which is by far better then typing, especially in the middle of a fight.
i cannot use teamspeak or mumble with random people. I'd actualy would have to communicate with them to give them or get their details wich doesn't happen because we diddn't even say hi remember?
Originally posted by CalmOceans Originally posted by evilastro But the looking for group aspect itself is not social.
Let's compare the system EQ used versus the automated LFG systems they use now.
Engaging with another player for the first time, asking that player if they would like to group, discussing what their goals are, helping them get to your camp, running with them to the camp, helping them get rezzed, engaging with other groups to check for a good spot, learning about each other. Becoming friends.
Automated LF-dungeon bla bla bla, directly zone into the zone, zerg everything for 20 minutes, never say a word and not even saying bye.
I know one of them created a community, and it sure as hell is not the automated LFG garbage they keep releasing.
Uh my GUILD created a community in EQ. Spamming LFG most certainly did not. I could not recall a single one of the LFG spammers, my guild mates on the other hand I remember quite vividly, and still chat to them to this day.
Spamming LFG is not social, its annoying. Making friends WHILE you group is social. Adding them to a friends list and grouping with them later is social. Sitting around yelling LFG! LFG! LFG! Is not social. WoW was not anti-social because of the LFG tool. There was already very little reason to chat to people you didn't know because the encounters were so easy. Challenge is what brings people together in MMOs.
You arent roleplaying in a tavern saying 'Oh hello good Sir, would you like to partake in a grand adventure with me? There will be glorious treasure and experiences to last a lifetime!'. Thats not how it works.
Your choices are:
1) Put up with annoying LFG spam which ruins global, zone or area conversations for other players.
2) An automated LFG system which can already filter players based on appropriate class / level / gear to save time and annoyance.
Nothing in the second option stops you from making friends, or creating groups entirely from your friend list / guild if you know that will be a smoother and more enjoyable experience. The first option ruins the social aspect of the game by turning it into a LFG spamfest.
Originally posted by Emrendil It's not that people has changed. There are more kinds of people out there, Some people prefer this, some people prefer that.
So what changed, the people haven't changed and you don't say it's the game's fault so what is it?
I think there's no doubt that current MMO communities compare poorly to the older ones but it's not all down to LFG tools. WoW had that problem way before the LFG tool came out, but I'd also say the WoW community got worse after the dungeon finder released.
The problem isn't LFG tools as such, it's when they work across servers. This creates a situation where you know you'll never see anyone again, so what's the point in talking? Why not ninja that loot? Why not be an ass-hat? All because the group members are from different servers.
But it's more than just that. Solo to level cap = bad for community. Don't need others to progress, they're just competition for mobs.
Faster HP/Mana recovery times, no breaks between pulls where you used to chat for a few minutes to pass the time.
Really what we've seen happen is that as MMO's have become more user friendly, more mainstream, more accessible, and yes EASIER to play, the communities of these modern MMO's have deteriorated.
Have LFG systems helped this along? When they cross servers/realms then yes I think they have. But I can't say they ruined things all on their own.
Originally posted by evilastro Originally posted by CalmOceans Originally posted by evilastro But the looking for group aspect itself is not social.
I never even mentioned LFG spam in my post, why are you bringing this up?
You know most people didn't make groups in EQ by spamming LFG right? Almost all groups were made by direct communication, either by /say or /tell or friend invites.
Originally posted by CalmOceans Originally posted by Emrendil It's not that people has changed. There are more kinds of people out there, Some people prefer this, some people prefer that.
It's the games fault. Easy content = no reason to socialise. People band together for challenges. When something isnt challenging, who cares if you don't have a solid group of players to back you up?
There was very little reason for me to make friends in WoW, because the content was so easy that I could take just about anyone in and still finish it. In Everquest and EQ2 I had to be selective about who I took with me into a dungeon, otherwise the result was a long and painful experience.
Maybe you are from the older generation of players. Younger generation never played those first MMORPG's. They are starting with games like Rift, Tera or Guild Wars 2.
yeah it has nothing at all to do with that 100000x more people are playing these types of games now
EQ would be the same shit if the same people played it back then. Has nothing to do with the game
Originally posted by CalmOceans I never even mentioned LFG spam in my post, why are you bringing this up? You know most people didn't make groups in EQ by spamming LFG right? Almost all groups were made by direct communication, either by /say or /tell or friend invites.
"Engaging with another player for the first time, asking that player if they would like to group, discussing what their goals are, helping them get to your camp, running with them to the camp, helping them get rezzed, engaging with other groups to check for a good spot, learning about each other. Becoming friends."
Which is not the reality. Spamming LFG does not result in any of that. Spamming in LFG gets you into a group, which is the same thing that the automated systems do. Having good challenging content is what leads to the other things, because there is a reason to make friends and work as a team.
Uh back when it launched you had to be near someone to invite, so you would see LFG spam in say outside dungeons or in towns. Thats before they added the LFG tool (which was a fantastic addition and the first step to a dungeon finder).
Also you would get heaps of annoying tells from players asking to group. Not asking how my day or starting some witty banter, just asking for a group. So very social and rewarding!
What is so importend about community? I am not saying it's not, because it is. The two longest games I played have been games I was part of an awesome community. WAR and Face of Mankind and I founded a guild in WAR with some friend I met in Face of Mankind. Only game I actually ever leved a character to max-level (twice even) was WAR and I think it might have been because of the community I was in.
However does LFG system ruin the community. I don't know really. I think it give access to player who are not that sociable. I am one of those. It's not that I mind talking to people it's just that I am not much of a small talker. So what you then talk about when in a raid? Beside mentioning you never did the raid. I find talking strategy is not needed, because often there is already a standard route/strat people use and everyone always seems to know about them or something.
I guess the benifit of not having a LFG would be that you are forced to talk to people. However even without that system people just joined groups they saw talking in chat and then just joined them without speaking much.
My conclusion would be that the community is not being ruined. It simply is easier accessable by less social people (as in people who communicate less) and that only adds to the community. The same people might still be in that game as when the game did not had the system. So you could still form a good community. Those less social do not have to be bad people or players. Might be if you invite them into you guild when you see them perform good in a raid they open up and end up being nice people and good player.
What would ruin a community is when people believe that certain type of people ruin a community and when they stop building a community. That is what I am seeing a lot of people assuming that a LFG system ruins a community and suddenly makes everyone unsocial. They then decide there is no point of talking in a game because no-one will ever say anything back.