Dedicated Buffing Classes

KazoWAR · March 2013

What are your thoughts on dedicated buffing classes. Do you like the idea of a few classes/specs having all the buffs, or do you like the idea of all classes having 1 buff to contribute to the group? If you like dedicated buffing classes what are your thoughts on buff bots? Would you hope that CSE would implement some kinda of anti-buffbot mechanic?

[Deleted User] · March 2013

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Speely · March 2013

I think the DAoC model was good in regard to the spread if buffs between multiple classes. The mechanics were wonky and allowed for buffbots, which sucked.

However, I like the idea of support classes having the best buffs and hybrids having situationally-useful buffs.

In the sense of defining realm strengths, I think that defining where the buffs are coming from is important. The distribution of buffability (yeah I made up a word) could help to define the flavor of a realm and dictate, in even a small fashion, how a realm set up it's offenses and defenses.

So in short, I think that buffs should have primary and secondary sources (or even tertiary) that are available based upon the "flavor" of the realm the buffer is from.

sweetdigs · March 2013

I'm fine with several classes having a variety of buffs. Don't think you want to encourage buffbots, but I guess it's good from a fiscal perspective because more people are incentivized to multi-account.

I'll probably multi anyway so I can have dedicated crafters and PVP'ers. Assuming, of course, that there's no rule against it (and i doubt there will be). I run 3 accounts in Eve right now, so I'm used to it.

Trav24 · March 2013

On Final Fantasy 11 the bard was a great buff class but also have to be very active to be a decent bard. So im all for buff classes as long as it's done right

Speely · March 2013

Buffbots are easily solved by proximity-based buffs.

morfidon · March 2013

Buffs could work like on classic server for example Lamorak.

meddyck · March 2013

I'm not a fan of stat buffs. If the game is balanced around everybody having +155 strength from buffs, then just give everybody +155 strength and dispense with the whole need to buff at all. Having played countless hours on clerics, druids, and healers in DAOC, there wasn't anything fun or interesting about buffing, rebuffing, or even shearing.

I don't even need to mention how bad it is when buffing classes can be used as bots.

If the main healing class has buffs, then everybody is going to expect healers to spec for buffs and heals and will scorn you if you spec for damage or CC or even for the best healing at the expense of buffing.

For all these reasons, the only kind of buffs I'd like to see in CU are stuff like DAOC's healer's celerity: short duration group buffs where the player has to pick the right time to use them rather than them always being on. And if you have spells like that, don't put them on the main healers.

OgreRaper · March 2013

I think a buffing class would be cool...

IF it's designed to be a very active class. Meaning you can't just buff people then go AFK.

Odaman · March 2013

I'd rather see a heavy debuffer than a buffer. At least when it comes to generic stat buffs.

Stiler · March 2013

I loath buff classes, especially if the buffs are so high that they are seen as a requirment to do any kind of pvp. This leads to "buffbots " and things, where people have two accounts iwth one for buffing and nothing more.

Tumblebutz · March 2013

Buffs:

-must have a range on them. If you leave the range, you drop the buff.

-must be given by a group member. If you leave the group, you drop the buff.

-must not provide an insurmountable advantage for those who have them versus those who don't.

-must not be available via any other means like pots or charges.

BowbowDAoC · March 2013

Buffs are awesome in PvE games, but i dont really see the point of having buffs in a RvR only mmo, it would bring up to the same stats, just higher.

Except maybe like celerity and endurance, and maybe HPwise.

(and for endurance and celerity, give either both possible, or none, otherwise is favorising either melee classes or caster classes).

Edit : on top of that, it would make things easier to make sure each classes are balanced (they re not looking for perfect balance, but still, having everyone with "pure stats" would make this even easier )

Kaneth · March 2013

I would much rather have a modified version of buffs, rather than the DAoC approach. The biggest issue with buffs, is that they become a requirement if they are too good. I much prefer shorter duration buffs that need to be activated with some intelligence in mind to be effective.

Bard song twisting in DAoC would be a fairly ok example with what I am talking about. A skilled Bard was able to song twist the speed buff and endurance buff so that we were able to sprint for some distance before losing all of our stamina. This was great for evading enemies, or running down slower moving groups.

GW2's boon system is another good example too. Knowing your combo fields in GW2 and when to use them can make or break a fight. Lining up burst damage, or even lining up a string of boons to survive.

As far as buffbots go. They ruin pvp balance if the buffs are required to compete. DAoC had this issue when I played.

Plastic-Metal · March 2013

I am completely indifferent when it comes to a buffing class. If they become "required" to be competitive, I'll simply buy another account for myself and use it for my pick up/guild group.

They were completely unfair to those that didn't have it in DAoC, though.

Kryptonite_Hilo · March 2013

I love buffs and buffbots. I never had one, but I never understood why people were against them. Never saw buffs as a problem unless you were trying to be a solo/stealther and you got mad because the other guy had a bot. That's too bad. If you were grouped then you better have a class that could buff and heal because you knew damn well the other group would have it. No different than the solo peeps that were mad. You either had it or you didn't the same as you either had a quality template or you didn't. I was a stealther without a buffbot. I died a lot... so I made a visible class and grouped and thrived.

Suck it up. Buffs contribute hugely to a game. If you want everyone on the same playing field without working for it then homogenize everything.

Stiler · March 2013

Originally posted by Kryptonite_Hilo
I love buffs and buffbots. I never had one, but I never understood why people were against them. Never saw buffs as a problem unless you were trying to be a solo/stealther and you got mad because the other guy had a bot. That's too bad. If you were grouped then you better have a class that could buff and heal because you knew damn well the other group would have it. No different than the solo peeps that were mad. You either had it or you didn't the same as you either had a quality template or you didn't. I was a stealther without a buffbot. I died a lot... so I made a visible class and grouped and thrived.

Suck it up. Buffs contribute hugely to a game. If you want everyone on the same playing field without working for it then homogenize everything.

You can't understand why people hated REQUIRNG a "buff" in a game to simply be viable to fight vs other people who most likely had the buff?

Tehy add nothing to the game but TIME WASTERS, having to find someone to buff you so you can go out and fight on a more even ground vs other people who have said buff.

Then, the entire point of buffs is defeated, because EVERYONE has thema nd thus it cancels each other out many times, so the entire concept of it is lost.

Buffs shouldn't be a crutch, they shouldn't be something that makes players a lot better/op, and they shouldn't be something people want to "bot" with.

Tumblebutz · March 2013

Originally posted by Plastic-Metal
I am completely indifferent when it comes to a buffing class. If they become "required" to be competitive, I'll simply buy another account for myself and use it for my pick up/guild group.

They were completely unfair to those that didn't have it in DAoC, though.

If the buff system even creates an OPTION to do this, then the system is broken... horribly broken. Having the need for a separate account just for buffs is fucking asinine and will break the game.

For those who don't see a problem with buff-bots, let me briefly explain: it is a unanimously unfair advantage to those players with two computers, the funds for two accounts and/or a connection which will support running two accounts simultaneously. In short, it provides an advantage obtained OUTSIDE the realm of play. In a PvP game, this is an absolute deal-breaker. Think "pay-to-win."

This is the single part of the game design which will prevent me from playing or funding KS.

I sincerely doubt MJ would endorse a system that supports buff-botting. Perhaps MJ will comment on this...

EDIT: spelling

MarkJacobs · March 2013

Originally posted by Tumblebutz
Originally posted by Plastic-Metal
I am completely indifferent when it comes to a buffing class. If they become "required" to be competitive, I'll simply buy another account for myself and use it for my pick up/guild group.

They were completely unfair to those that didn't have it in DAoC, though.

If the buff system even creates an OPTION to do this, then the system is broken... horribly broken. Having the need for a separate account just for buffs is fucking asinine and will break the game.

For those who don't see a problem with buff-bots, let me briefly explain: it is a unanimously unfair advantage to those players with two computers, the funds for two accounts and/or a connection which will support running two accounts simultaneously. In short, it provides an advantage obtained OUTSIDE the realm of play. In a PvP game, this is an absolute deal-breaker. Think "pay-to-win."

This is the single part of the game design which will prevent me from playing or funding KS.

I sincerely doubt MJ would endorse a system that supports buff-botting. Perhaps MJ will comment on this...

EDIT: spelling

Doing battle with a bit of a headache right now (working on this eyechart of Digitial Reward Tiers from home doesn't help) but my thoughts here are:

1) We will be actively looking to discourage buff-botting through the game's design. Now, there is no way to prevent someone from having two accounts on a credit card without screwing over families, friends, guilds, etc. but we're going into this saying that our buff/heal system will not favor "buffbot parking" inside a structure, outside of combat range, etc.

2) In CU, I want pure healers to play an important role in the game. Back at Mythic I had numerous discussions about the role of healers in future games and while I think self-heals are great for quick PvE-based games, in a game like CU, we want to encourage healers to play that role.

3) In terms of other support classes, nothing has been decided yet other than I do want to see at least one other support class in the game at launch. I also personally favor a debuff based class rather than a buff based class at launch due to the concern about always having to get buffed up before engaging in battle. Plus, a debuff based class requires active participation in RvR battles (and skill if the system is designed properly) whereas a buff based class *can* sit in one safe/safer area and just keep buffing people. Also, I want to cut down the number of buffs that are in this game, especially at launch. I do like movement speed buffs though. Again, nothing has been decided yet regarding this part of the discussion.

meddyck · March 2013

Originally posted by MarkJacobs

1) We will be actively looking to discourage buff-botting through the game's design. Now, there is no way to prevent someone from having two accounts on a credit card without screwing over families, friends, guilds, etc. but we're going into this saying that our buff/heal system will not favor "buffbot parking" inside a structure, outside of combat range, etc.

2) In CU, I want pure healers to play an important role in the game. Back at Mythic I had numerous discussions about the role of healers in future games and while I think self-heals are great for quick PvE-based games, in a game like CU, we want to encourage healers to play that role.

3) In terms of other support classes, nothing has been decided yet other than I do want to see at least one other support class in the game at launch. I also personally favor a debuff based class rather than a buff based class at launch due to the concern about always having to get buffed up before engaging in battle. Plus, a debuff based class requires active participation in RvR battles (and skill if the system is designed properly) whereas a buff based class *can* sit in one safe/safer area and just keep buffing people. Also, I want to cut down the number of buffs that are in this game, especially at launch. I do like movement speed buffs though. Again, nothing has been decided yet regarding this part of the discussion.

Part #19123940123 in "I love what Mark is planning for CU"!

Plastic-Metal · March 2013

Originally posted by MarkJacobs

Doing battle with a bit of a headache right now (working on this eyechart of Digitial Reward Tiers from home doesn't help) but my thoughts here are:

1) We will be actively looking to discourage buff-botting through the game's design. Now, there is no way to prevent someone from having two accounts on a credit card without screwing over families, friends, guilds, etc. but we're going into this saying that our buff/heal system will not favor "buffbot parking" inside a structure, outside of combat range, etc.

2) In CU, I want pure healers to play an important role in the game. Back at Mythic I had numerous discussions about the role of healers in future games and while I think self-heals are great for quick PvE-based games, in a game like CU, we want to encourage healers to play that role.

3) In terms of other support classes, nothing has been decided yet other than I do want to see at least one other support class in the game at launch. I also personally favor a debuff based class rather than a buff based class at launch due to the concern about always having to get buffed up before engaging in battle. Plus, a debuff based class requires active participation in RvR battles (and skill if the system is designed properly) whereas a buff based class *can* sit in one safe/safer area and just keep buffing people. Also, I want to cut down the number of buffs that are in this game, especially at launch. I do like movement speed buffs though. Again, nothing has been decided yet regarding this part of the discussion.

Great response, Mark. I appreciate it. I remember in the days of DAoC I never purchased a second account in order to be "competitive" with other players that did it; in fact, I usually just stopped RvR'ing when I encountered it frequently. Later in the game's life cycle it was far more common and alchemy potions and eventually champion levels allowed to bridge the gap between buffed and bot buffed. Now that I have additional disposable income, I sadly, wasn't going to allow my gaming experience be totally destroyed if buff botting were allowed within the game; I sadly, would join the craze just to have fun.

I love the "discourage buff-botting" approach while designing the game's mechanics. That statement alone goes a very, very long way for veteran DAoCers and new players alike. Yet another reason I'm absolutely hyped and thrilled that you're giving MMO's another go.. you and CSE can dooooo it! *in the waterboy voice*

Speely · March 2013

Thanks Mark! We appreciate you being as forthcoming as you can. I have a feeling this is going to be one hell of a community

BowbowDAoC · March 2013

Originally posted by BowbowDAoC

Buffs are awesome in PvE games, but i dont really see the point of having buffs in a RvR only mmo, it would bring up to the same stats, just higher.

Except maybe like celerity and endurance, and maybe HPwise.

(and for endurance and celerity, give either both possible, or none, otherwise is favorising either melee classes or caster classes).

Edit : on top of that, it would make things easier to make sure each classes are balanced (they re not looking for perfect balance, but still, having everyone with "pure stats" would make this even easier )

Originally posted by MarkJacobs

Originally posted by Tumblebutz
Originally posted by Plastic-Metal
I am completely indifferent when it comes to a buffing class. If they become "required" to be competitive, I'll simply buy another account for myself and use it for my pick up/guild group.

They were completely unfair to those that didn't have it in DAoC, though.

If the buff system even creates an OPTION to do this, then the system is broken... horribly broken. Having the need for a separate account just for buffs is fucking asinine and will break the game.

For those who don't see a problem with buff-bots, let me briefly explain: it is a unanimously unfair advantage to those players with two computers, the funds for two accounts and/or a connection which will support running two accounts simultaneously. In short, it provides an advantage obtained OUTSIDE the realm of play. In a PvP game, this is an absolute deal-breaker. Think "pay-to-win."

This is the single part of the game design which will prevent me from playing or funding KS.

I sincerely doubt MJ would endorse a system that supports buff-botting. Perhaps MJ will comment on this...

EDIT: spelling

Doing battle with a bit of a headache right now (working on this eyechart of Digitial Reward Tiers from home doesn't help) but my thoughts here are:

1) We will be actively looking to discourage buff-botting through the game's design. Now, there is no way to prevent someone from having two accounts on a credit card without screwing over families, friends, guilds, etc. but we're going into this saying that our buff/heal system will not favor "buffbot parking" inside a structure, outside of combat range, etc.

2) In CU, I want pure healers to play an important role in the game. Back at Mythic I had numerous discussions about the role of healers in future games and while I think self-heals are great for quick PvE-based games, in a game like CU, we want to encourage healers to play that role.

3) In terms of other support classes, nothing has been decided yet other than I do want to see at least one other support class in the game at launch. I also personally favor a debuff based class rather than a buff based class at launch due to the concern about always having to get buffed up before engaging in battle. Plus, a debuff based class requires active participation in RvR battles (and skill if the system is designed properly) whereas a buff based class *can* sit in one safe/safer area and just keep buffing people. Also, I want to cut down the number of buffs that are in this game, especially at launch. I do like movement speed buffs though. Again, nothing has been decided yet regarding this part of the discussion.

I had forgotten all about speed buffs... Must be because i was solo scouting our frontiers all the time lol.

so my opinion would be to keep celerity and end regen (both or none), Speed buffs and maybe HPwise buff.

having a bunch of buffs/debuffs is imo sort of useless, lets keep pure stats + eventual bonuses from crafted items. I wont mind at all if there is buffs tho, but they'd bring more headaches for developers than anything else, since it'll be RvR only.

Odaman · March 2013

Originally posted by MarkJacobs

I also personally favor a debuff based class rather than a buff based class at launch due to the concern about always having to get buffed up before engaging in battle. Plus, a debuff based class requires active participation in RvR battles (and skill if the system is designed properly) whereas a buff based class *can* sit in one safe/safer area and just keep buffing people.

This is reassuring and I completely agree. I think one of the nicer things about daoc were the debuffs particularly dehaste mixed with pbt. My only issue was that the debuffs in that game were spread throughout the casters and were never really centralized to one character to focus on. The closest thing to a real debuffer was resistance debuff casters and the buff classes with shears.

Kyleran · March 2013

Originally posted by Tumblebutz
Originally posted by Plastic-Metal
I am completely indifferent when it comes to a buffing class. If they become "required" to be competitive, I'll simply buy another account for myself and use it for my pick up/guild group.

They were completely unfair to those that didn't have it in DAoC, though.

If the buff system even creates an OPTION to do this, then the system is broken... horribly broken. Having the need for a separate account just for buffs is fucking asinine and will break the game.

For those who don't see a problem with buff-bots, let me briefly explain: it is a unanimously unfair advantage to those players with two computers, the funds for two accounts and/or a connection which will support running two accounts simultaneously. In short, it provides an advantage obtained OUTSIDE the realm of play. In a PvP game, this is an absolute deal-breaker. Think "pay-to-win."

This is the single part of the game design which will prevent me from playing or funding KS.

I sincerely doubt MJ would endorse a system that supports buff-botting. Perhaps MJ will comment on this...

EDIT: spelling

One short question. Do buff bots give the other player any advantage that you can't easily get yourself by working with another player to obtain? (including one who has a buff bot?)

The answer is no of course, therefore doesn't meet the pay to win definintion in any way.

Edit: On topic, yes, I would like to see Buff/Debuff classes like the Midgard Shaman, they were excellent to play and provided great hybrid utility. Big issue with the Albion side is they decided to give buffs to Clerics who were also the primary healers and that caused a lot of issues because you had to choose healing in most cases, hence a real rise in buff bots on the Alb side at least.

On Mordred we didn't have nearly the buff botting issue because there were no safe keeps where you could park a bot, and as others have said, limiting the range of the buff (and perhaps the number) more than keeps buf botting in control.

MarkJacobs · March 2013

Originally posted by Odaman
Originally posted by MarkJacobs

I also personally favor a debuff based class rather than a buff based class at launch due to the concern about always having to get buffed up before engaging in battle. Plus, a debuff based class requires active participation in RvR battles (and skill if the system is designed properly) whereas a buff based class *can* sit in one safe/safer area and just keep buffing people.

This is reassuring and I completely agree. I think one of the nicer things about daoc were the debuffs particularly dehaste mixed with pbt. My only issue was that the debuffs in that game were spread throughout the casters and were never really centralized to one character to focus on. The closest thing to a real debuffer was resistance debuff casters and the buff classes with shears.

My *current* thinking is that the 4th class will be a bard-type class that will have a wide range of buffs/debuffs (not heals). I'm really interested in seeing where we can go with a bard that is purely focused on sound-based effects (especially when it comes to group dynamics) that are more than typical bard class RPG tropes.

This is really open to debate though as it is truly just my initial thoughts on the subject.

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Dedicated Buffing Classes

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