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Rooted in place

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  • SoMuchMassSoMuchMass New York, NYPosts: 548Member
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by Skeetz
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    No in an action game you can move freely and use strategies..

     Which action game? TERA, Raiderz, Dragon Nest, DCUO, Vindictus are all  action combat games that have rooted mechanics. Please don't name GW2 as that's not action combat. neither is DDO.

    Just take any real action game, MMO or not going back to the 80's. I will not start quoting games at you if you can't see what I am saying.

    You won't start "quoting games" because you have no examples.  Most action games including the god fathers of action games root you.  I will name them again:

    • Diablo, God of War, Bayonetta, Kingdoms of Amalur, Batman Arkham Asylum, Dark Soul, Devil May Cry even games like Street Fighter and Mortal Combat

    I just don't think you have played any action games.

  • Asm0deusAsm0deus BaatorPosts: 1,112Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by Skeetz
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    No in an action game you can move freely and use strategies..

     Which action game? TERA, Raiderz, Dragon Nest, DCUO, Vindictus are all  action combat games that have rooted mechanics. Please don't name GW2 as that's not action combat. neither is DDO.

    Just take any real action game, MMO or not going back to the 80's. I will not start quoting games at you if you can't see what I am saying.

    You won't start "quoting games" because you have no examples.  Most action games including the god fathers of action games root you.  I will name them again:

    • Diablo, God of War, Bayonetta, Kingdoms of Amalur, Batman Arkham Asylum, Dark Soul, Devil May Cry even games like Street Fighter and Mortal Combat

    I just don't think you have played any action games.

    I have been playing video games since atari and colecovision, these game you mention are far from the grand daddy of anything.  From your post I would deduce that I have forgotten more games than you have even played.

    Troll on though!

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  • ranncoreranncore omaha, NEPosts: 93Member
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by Skeetz
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    No in an action game you can move freely and use strategies..

     Which action game? TERA, Raiderz, Dragon Nest, DCUO, Vindictus are all  action combat games that have rooted mechanics. Please don't name GW2 as that's not action combat. neither is DDO.

    Just take any real action game, MMO or not going back to the 80's. I will not start quoting games at you if you can't see what I am saying.

    You won't start "quoting games" because you have no examples.  Most action games including the god fathers of action games root you.  I will name them again:

    • Diablo, God of War, Bayonetta, Kingdoms of Amalur, Batman Arkham Asylum, Dark Soul, Devil May Cry even games like Street Fighter and Mortal Combat

    I just don't think you have played any action games.

    I have been playing video games since atari and colecovision, these game you mention are far from the grand daddy of anything.  From your post I would deduce that I have forgotten more games than you have even played.

    Troll on though!

    On the contrary, every modern ARPG can trace it's roots back to Diablo, Bayonetta and Dark Souls are widely considered modern classics, and Street Fighter and Mortal Combat are the games where this literally all began. 

    Unless you can cite some examples of your own I'm going to say that the TL; DR here is that you have nothing to add to this conversation other than a misinformed opinion. 

  • ranncoreranncore omaha, NEPosts: 93Member
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
     

    It's how the rooting is implemented that is the problem.  It feels stuttery and jerky which is not how you want your action combat to feel.  I'm used to the system now and how to use the dodge mechanic to break animations, but it's not smooth compared to the GW2, Tera, or TL2.

    I actually think the problem stems from the Attack Qeueing system. You have by now no doubt realised that when you click the left mouse button twice, even tho it takes 1.5 seconds for your attack to finish, the next one is already lined up. This means that if you're out of stamina, there's no way to interupt whatever is lined up in the action qeue so that you can walk away. 

  • Asm0deusAsm0deus BaatorPosts: 1,112Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ranncore
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by Skeetz
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    No in an action game you can move freely and use strategies..

     Which action game? TERA, Raiderz, Dragon Nest, DCUO, Vindictus are all  action combat games that have rooted mechanics. Please don't name GW2 as that's not action combat. neither is DDO.

    Just take any real action game, MMO or not going back to the 80's. I will not start quoting games at you if you can't see what I am saying.

    You won't start "quoting games" because you have no examples.  Most action games including the god fathers of action games root you.  I will name them again:

    • Diablo, God of War, Bayonetta, Kingdoms of Amalur, Batman Arkham Asylum, Dark Soul, Devil May Cry even games like Street Fighter and Mortal Combat

    I just don't think you have played any action games.

    I have been playing video games since atari and colecovision, these game you mention are far from the grand daddy of anything.  From your post I would deduce that I have forgotten more games than you have even played.

    Troll on though!

    On the contrary, every modern ARPG can trace it's roots back to Diablo, Bayonetta and Dark Souls are widely considered modern classics, and Street Fighter and Mortal Combat are the games where this literally all began. 

    Unless you can cite some examples of your own I'm going to say that the TL; DR here is that you have nothing to add to this conversation other than a misinformed opinion. 

    Really ranncore are you telling me there were no action games before these ones lol   Street fighter came out in 87 and Mortal Kombat came out in 92 and was an arcade game.

     

    You guys have got to be kidding me, have you not ever played some of the old DOS games lol there were many many action games where you could attack while moving.

    lmao

     

    Modern classics my behind, they are only classic if your like 25 or so which in the scheme of things is still kind of young, it's like 12 year olds claiming stuff is OLD SKOOL BABY

     

    But w/e floats your boat.  Be sure I will TL; DR your next posts myself.

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  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon ParisPosts: 2,060Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Skeetz
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    No in an action game you can move freely and use strategies..

     Which action game? TERA, Raiderz, Dragon Nest, DCUO, Vindictus are all  action combat games that have rooted mechanics. Please don't name GW2 as that's not action combat. neither is DDO.

    That's the problem with GW2 fans, nothing came before GW2 LOL. The OP make a silly thread complaining about how action combat should work without realizing  that it's actually GW2 that is not normal action combat.

    Imagine the uproar if you went to there forum and moaned about the GW2 combat lol, you would be hung out to dry. 

     

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  • DeniZgDeniZg ZagrebPosts: 669Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Asm0deus

    You guys have got to be kidding me, have you not ever played some of the old DOS games lol there were many many action games where you could attack while moving.

    lmao

     

    Prince of Persia comes to my mind. It had rooted combat (you couldn't cancel your attack moves IIRC).

     

  • gillrmngillrmn ArnhemPosts: 250Member

    DOWN with the rooting.

     

    I dont care if it is realistic or not. It breaks the fluidity of the combat. It feels like turn based combat with the rooting. We were promised action combat.

     

    Bring back the non-rooted combat I played at PAX. That was massive fun before nerf bat hit the combat with realism.

  • goosiegoosie North Pole, AKPosts: 66Member
    Originally posted by Asm0deus

    Really ranncore are you telling me there were no action games before these ones lol   Street fighter came out in 87 and Mortal Kombat came out in 92 and was an arcade game.

     

    You guys have got to be kidding me, have you not ever played some of the old DOS games lol there were many many action games where you could attack while moving.

    lmao

     

    Modern classics my behind, they are only classic if your like 25 or so which in the scheme of things is still kind of young, it's like 12 year olds claiming stuff is OLD SKOOL BABY

     

    But w/e floats your boat.  Be sure I will TL; DR your next posts myself.

    PC was not the platform for innovative action games back in the day, certainly not DOS - the arcades were with companies like (in no particular order): Capcom (Final Fight, SF1), Sega (Golden Axe), Taito & Technos (Double Dragon), and Data East (Renegade) all making beat-em-ups/fighters and defining the action genre. No, they were not the first action games, but they were the ones that defined the genre into what we know as action combat today. Can you guess what the one thing they all had in common was? ROOTING. So please, enough with your hollow opinions and provide some evidence if you're going to be so belligerent about it.

    I'll add that it's okay to just not like rooted combat. Everybody's taste is different. Some people prefer to eat McDonald's rather than a meal at a decent restaurant, and that's totally their preference and nothing can change that. However, you can't try to convince the general population that your choice is the best because there's no evidence to support that and the whole industry is has been going in the complete opposite direction of what you "prefer".

  • Asm0deusAsm0deus BaatorPosts: 1,112Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by goosie
    Originally posted by Asm0deus

    Really ranncore are you telling me there were no action games before these ones lol   Street fighter came out in 87 and Mortal Kombat came out in 92 and was an arcade game.

     

    You guys have got to be kidding me, have you not ever played some of the old DOS games lol there were many many action games where you could attack while moving.

    lmao

     

    Modern classics my behind, they are only classic if your like 25 or so which in the scheme of things is still kind of young, it's like 12 year olds claiming stuff is OLD SKOOL BABY

     

    But w/e floats your boat.  Be sure I will TL; DR your next posts myself.

    PC was not the platform for innovative action games back in the day, certainly not DOS - the arcades were with companies like (in no particular order): Capcom (Final Fight, SF1), Sega (Golden Axe), Taito & Technos (Double Dragon), and Data East (Renegade) all making beat-em-ups/fighters and defining the action genre. No, they were not the first action games, but they were the ones that defined the genre into what we know as action combat today. Can you guess what the one thing they all had in common was? ROOTING. So please, enough with your hollow opinions and provide some evidence if you're going to be so belligerent about it.

    I'll add that it's okay to just not like rooted combat. Everybody's taste is different. Some people prefer to eat McDonald's rather than a meal at a decent restaurant, and that's totally their preference and nothing can change that. However, you can't try to convince the general population that your choice is the best because there's no evidence to support that and the whole industry is has been going in the complete opposite direction of what you "prefer".

    Rooting is a technique some old action games used that was shoddy, saying it defines the genre is asinine and sure as hell more of a step backwards than forwards.

     

    You guys are you taking the example of some games but ignoring the rest of them just to try and prove you a right.  You guys are taking just action "combat"  and forgeting all the rest of the "action" games.

     

    Hollow opinions my arse I mean unless you think MMOs are going in such a GREAT direction, so deep and invovled if you will, the truth is the  whole industry is making games for peeps with ADD.

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  • goosiegoosie North Pole, AKPosts: 66Member
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by goosie
    Originally posted by Asm0deus

    Really ranncore are you telling me there were no action games before these ones lol   Street fighter came out in 87 and Mortal Kombat came out in 92 and was an arcade game.

     

    You guys have got to be kidding me, have you not ever played some of the old DOS games lol there were many many action games where you could attack while moving.

    lmao

     

    Modern classics my behind, they are only classic if your like 25 or so which in the scheme of things is still kind of young, it's like 12 year olds claiming stuff is OLD SKOOL BABY

     

    But w/e floats your boat.  Be sure I will TL; DR your next posts myself.

    PC was not the platform for innovative action games back in the day, certainly not DOS - the arcades were with companies like (in no particular order): Capcom (Final Fight, SF1), Sega (Golden Axe), Taito & Technos (Double Dragon), and Data East (Renegade) all making beat-em-ups/fighters and defining the action genre. No, they were not the first action games, but they were the ones that defined the genre into what we know as action combat today. Can you guess what the one thing they all had in common was? ROOTING. So please, enough with your hollow opinions and provide some evidence if you're going to be so belligerent about it.

    I'll add that it's okay to just not like rooted combat. Everybody's taste is different. Some people prefer to eat McDonald's rather than a meal at a decent restaurant, and that's totally their preference and nothing can change that. However, you can't try to convince the general population that your choice is the best because there's no evidence to support that and the whole industry is has been going in the complete opposite direction of what you "prefer".

    Rooting is a technique some old action games used that was shoddy, saying it defines the genre is asinine and sure as hell more of a step backwards than forwards.

     

    You guys are you taking the example of some games but ignoring the rest of them just to try and prove you a right.  You guys are taking just action "combat"  and forgeting all the rest of the "action" games.

     

    Hollow opinions my arse I mean unless you think MMOs are going in such a GREAT direction, so deep and invovled if you will, the truth is the  whole industry is making games for peeps with ADD.

    L2read, I said those action games were the heyday games that defined the genre, and rooting is a common denominator in those action game.

    So why keep dodging the question? What are these "other" action games you are getting at that are sooooooo good that only you seem to recall?

    IMO you're spewing garbage, you have nothing to back up your opinion on the matter other than "I hate what you guys like, therefore I am right". 

  • fiontarfiontar Dana, MAPosts: 3,719Member

    Rooted "action" combat was really a transition step between turn based combat and fully realized action combat. Rooting doesn't "need to go" because that's the way GW2 does combat, GW2 just proved that fluid, non-rooted combat is now fully achievable and rooted combat is thus now an archaic throwback to a thankfully now dead era.

    A lot of concessions need to be made in game design due to technical and design limitations. One of the major elements marking the end of one generation of games and the beginning of the next is some significant progress towards eliminating one or more of those concessions.

    The era of rooted combat in MMOs has passed and MMO developers who don't adapt to the new reality are doing themselves, their game and their fans a huge dis-service.

    Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
    image

  • Asm0deusAsm0deus BaatorPosts: 1,112Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by fiontar

    Rooted "action" combat was really a transition step between turn based combat and fully realized action combat. Rooting doesn't "need to go" because that's the way GW2 does combat, GW2 just proved that fluid, non-rooted combat is now fully achievable and rooted combat is thus now an archaic throwback to a thankfully now dead era.

    A lot of concessions need to be made in game design due to technical and design limitations. One of the major elements marking the end of one generation of games and the beginning of the next is some significant progress towards eliminating one or more of those concessions.

    The era of rooted combat in MMOs has passed and MMO developers who don't adapt to the new reality are doing themselves, their game and their fans a huge dis-service.

    Yay someone that can use his brain and see rooting for what it was/is ! 

     

    Btw I don't play GW2 as I am not a fan of how gear works in that game but it IS a step in the right direction, a proper step forwards.

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  • SoMuchMassSoMuchMass New York, NYPosts: 548Member

    GW2 combat is NOT "action combat".  So many face palms in this thread.  People bringing up DOS games as a comparison and actually thinking GW2 is "action combat".  I cringed.  GW2 is a clunky tab/target type of game with a aimbot mechanic.  

    It is easy to make games spammy and mindless.  It is harder to make games with thought and actual action combat.  There is a reason GW2 is a virtually dead game, because it offered no depth in terms of combat or gameplay.  It was mindless.

    The future does not belong to lazy developers who take the easy way out with spammy and mindless combat.

    The problem with Neverwinter is the crappy animations.

  • SoMuchMassSoMuchMass New York, NYPosts: 548Member
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
     

    You guys have got to be kidding me, have you not ever played some of the old DOS games lol there were many many action games where you could attack while moving.

    Name one.

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    imho rooting or not doesn't really matter overall(even though I do like the run and gun style) it's all about how it feels and plays.. if animations and skill transitions feel off or clunky then it brings down combat as a whole... for me all i think is they need to clean up a couple of the animations and smooth out skill to skill transitions and people will have much less issues with the "rooted" aspects of the game

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  • MardukkMardukk Posts: 1,556Member Uncommon

    I don't care about past games.  I think rooting sucks.  It is possible to balance games without rooting ranged classes.  Most games have the mobs run a bit quicker than the player or a ranged attack. 

     

    I think TERA destroyed me for self rooting.  It had a freaking root on instant spells.  I understand rooting in channeled spells, but it is not necessary for "balance" on instant spells.  We have some pretty smart people involved in the developement of games and I'm sure they can figure out ways to balance games without jerky stop start attacks.

     

    I won't be playing ranged classes in NWN, which is fine.  Melee has rooting but it's more tolerable.

  • goosiegoosie North Pole, AKPosts: 66Member
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass

    GW2 combat is NOT "action combat".  So many face palms in this thread.  People bringing up DOS games as a comparison and actually thinking GW2 is "action combat".  I cringed.  GW2 is a clunky tab/target type of game with a aimbot mechanic.  

    It is easy to make games spammy and mindless.  It is harder to make games with thought and actual action combat.  There is a reason GW2 is a virtually dead game, because it offered no depth in terms of combat or gameplay.  It was mindless.

    The future does not belong to lazy developers who take the easy way out with spammy and mindless combat.

    The problem with Neverwinter is the crappy animations.

    +1

    Good to see there are some people that know what's up. I also don't like NW's combat, it is amateurish. But the problem does not stem from rooted animations, it's just overall lackluster in design, mechanics wise.

  • Asm0deusAsm0deus BaatorPosts: 1,112Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass

    GW2 combat is NOT "action combat".  So many face palms in this thread.  People bringing up DOS games as a comparison and actually thinking GW2 is "action combat".  I cringed.  GW2 is a clunky tab/target type of game with a aimbot mechanic.  

    It is easy to make games spammy and mindless.  It is harder to make games with thought and actual action combat.  There is a reason GW2 is a virtually dead game, because it offered no depth in terms of combat or gameplay.  It was mindless.

    The future does not belong to lazy developers who take the easy way out with spammy and mindless combat.

    The problem with Neverwinter is the crappy animations.

    Facepalms ? Your the one that brought up GW2 with the assumption I was a GW2 fanatic.  For the rest of your post it's funny because rooting IS what lazy developers do.

     

    GW2 is dead because of many many reasons and it's combat isn't the biggest reason but thats another subject altogether.

    Rooting does not equate into better or smarter, like you say the future does not belong to developers that take the lazy, easy way to do something and that is what rooting is no matter how much they con you into thinking it provides more strategy. *snicker*

     

    I will agree that better animations could make the issues with rooting much less problematic though yet this is Cryptic, do you really expect such a "lazy" developper to clean up its act?

     

    Cryptics idea of solving a problem integrating 4E into a mmo format is simple, hey it's too much work and we are not competant enough so lets just cut that all out and avoid the issues or likewise in this case hey lets just root everyone and claim it's to make strategy more important !!!!

     

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  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,066Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by evilastro
    I didn't have any issues evading mid-attack in this beta round, so I am fine with the rooting. I can see how wizards and clerics reverse strafing while casting would end up being rediculous. The main issue I had with it last beta weekend was that my rogue would get locked in an animation and then get blasted by an AE that was completely avoidable. Now that is fixed I am fine with it.

    As was stated in a Dev replu on the official forums back during BWE1, using your avoidance move is supposed to break what ever animation regardless and the teleport/dodge/sprint will automatically take precidence.  In BWE1 this was a huge issue for me on my Rogue as well.  In BWE2 it appears they did work on it as it worled a bit more fluidly but still 100% where I wanted it or where it needs to be.

     

    On another topic, why do I like rooting in this game but not in Tera?  Well its as simple as the combat animations themselves being failry quick.  For example in Tera it might take .75 to 1.5 sec or longer to get off an ability but in NWO I have yet to see an animation take longer then .5 secs to complete (barring channel spells of course).  This is where the ac tion comes in, being able to fire off 2-3 abilities in the same time frame as 1 ability in Tera is a huge deal and goes a long way to speeding up the combat and giving it the appearance of action.  Whereas Tera I felt was not action'y at all. 

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

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  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,066Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass

    GW2 combat is NOT "action combat".  So many face palms in this thread.  People bringing up DOS games as a comparison and actually thinking GW2 is "action combat".  I cringed.  GW2 is a clunky tab/target type of game with a aimbot mechanic.  

    It is easy to make games spammy and mindless.  It is harder to make games with thought and actual action combat.  There is a reason GW2 is a virtually dead game, because it offered no depth in terms of combat or gameplay.  It was mindless.

    The future does not belong to lazy developers who take the easy way out with spammy and mindless combat.

    The problem with Neverwinter is the crappy animations.

    Facepalms ? Your the one that brought up GW2 with the assumption I was a GW2 fanatic.  For the rest of your post it's funny because rooting IS what lazy developers do.

     

    GW2 is dead because of many many reasons and it's combat isn't the biggest reason but thats another subject altogether.

    Rooting does not equate into better or smarter, like you say the future does not belong to developers that take the lazy, easy way to do something and that is what rooting is no matter how much they con you into thinking it provides more strategy. *snicker*

     

    I will agree that better animations could make the issues with rooting much less problematic though yet this is Cryptic, do you really expect such a "lazy" developper to clean up its act?

     

    Cryptics idea of solving a problem integrating 4E into a mmo format is simple, hey it's too much work and we are not competant enough so lets just cut that all out and avoid the issues or likewise in this case hey lets just root everyone and claim it's to make strategy more important !!!!

     

    Sorry to burst your bubble but GW2 is by far not dead.  Far from it, and it continues to grow its playerbase every day.  Check the Forums if you don't believe me.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • JRRNeiklotJRRNeiklot Decatur, ALPosts: 108Member
    Neverwinter is D&D.  You've never been able to move and cast in D&D.
  • Dreamo84Dreamo84 Niagara Falls, NYPosts: 3,436Member Uncommon
    For melee it doesn't feel bad at all. But ya the Wizard feels off partly due to this and other things. I am normally a Clothie guy but I really fell in love with my Teifling Rogue so if I'm ok if Wizard doesn't end up working for me. I heard they are making some changes though so we will see how it goes.

    image
  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    Originally posted by goosie
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass

    GW2 combat is NOT "action combat".  So many face palms in this thread.  People bringing up DOS games as a comparison and actually thinking GW2 is "action combat".  I cringed.  GW2 is a clunky tab/target type of game with a aimbot mechanic.  

    It is easy to make games spammy and mindless.  It is harder to make games with thought and actual action combat.  There is a reason GW2 is a virtually dead game, because it offered no depth in terms of combat or gameplay.  It was mindless.

    The future does not belong to lazy developers who take the easy way out with spammy and mindless combat.

    The problem with Neverwinter is the crappy animations.

    +1

    Good to see there are some people that know what's up. I also don't like NW's combat, it is amateurish. But the problem does not stem from rooted animations, it's just overall lackluster in design, mechanics wise.

    GW2 combat is action combat. Reticle combat (you know, aiming) is a sub-genre of action combat. If anything, GW2 feels more action oriented than TERA, because the animation locks make movement useless aside from the most obvious telegraphed attacks.

    Also virtually dead? Haha nice one, try getting into WvW and let me know how long it takes you. Takes me up to 3 hours, even on weeknights. That must be because noone is playing *rolls eyes*.  

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    Originally posted by Fendel84M
    For melee it doesn't feel bad at all. But ya the Wizard feels off partly due to this and other things. I am normally a Clothie guy but I really fell in love with my Teifling Rogue so if I'm ok if Wizard doesn't end up working for me. I heard they are making some changes though so we will see how it goes.

    For me it was the other way around. I felt that it was OK for ranged, but was slightly annoying for melee.

    Personally I would prefer that At Will abilities were usable while moving, but Encounters and Dailys still root you.

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