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Originally posted by Sovrath Originally posted by Nanfoodle Originally posted by Sovrath Originally posted by Nanfoodle Originally posted by Sovrath Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Again they dont get the scope of what they are asking for. Quest, VO story and maybe even dungeons are designed for that faction. Make the game generic and everyone can go everywhere and you need to make a new game.
EDIT: Even the OP has stopped posting in this thread. My guess he sees the scope of what he is asking for adn seen the folly.
Ok, but again, this isn't hard to solve. Not saying they should do it one way or another (though I'm a fan of a whole unfettered world) but just add a line for every npc that "There's a war on, we dont' speak to your kind".
end of problem. It's contrived but it does solve the quest part while leaving the world part open.
as far as the last part, I think that's reading into it too much. Maybe he's just sick of the discussion. Doesn't mean he sees any "folly".
Ok, so you get to wonder around a factions map and cant quest, what are you there for? Attack lowbes and look around? Forget about the immersion breaking you are doing. Having a Darkelf show up as I am killing darkelve NPCs that are attacking my village in a quest. You there to watch and dance with the guy? Or to kill him? One break immersion the other makes it so people who are TES pure PvE fans dont get their play space. See the problem with your idea?
This isn't rocket science. If I offered you 1 million dollars to think of "the next step" I'm fairly confident you could do it on your own.
Additionally I did say it was contrived so you are going to have to acknowledge that.
edit: to add, in my mind, any character being in enemy territory would have to be attackable. At least as far as true immersion. Otherwise, it just becomes an "it is what it is and that goes back to my contrived remark".
So we have the flag system, a broken system that any pure PvEer will tell you they hate. So many ways to force someone to flag when all they want to do is quest and hug rabbits. They have a right to play their way to. Faction lock gives them thats.
ok, first of all you are going to have to take a step back.
1, yes, that is a pvp solution, and never did I say it wasn't. as far as tricking one to flag, that's an easy fix. You either set yourself up for pvp or not pvp. This has been done in other games which leads me to what I've already said...
2, ... that the solution was (and I will make this large) contrived. If I have to make that larger I will.
It's as contrived as you taking a quest in an mmo and over the course of the quest line you become the world's savior. Of course, you are standing around with all of the other "individual saviors". Does that mean the world has thousands of saviors? Not really, it's a "contrivance" that you step out of the "massive world" and your own individual experience only pertains to you. Is this good or bad? I won't say, I'll leave that up to the player to decide if they like it or not.
Since one can't eat their cake and still have it, any changes to the game will have a give and take. That is one give and take.
Additionaly, and I can't say for certain as I was never a big player, what do they do in WoW on PvE servers? If they allow players from the oppositve faction to come to your land (and I think they do but someone will have to correct if that's not the case) then clearly it's been done though agian, it's a "contrivance" and doesn't make sense in the larger world but makes sense in one's own personal experience. It just adds more "theme park" to the theme park.
Am I saying this is optimal? No. But I am addressing your contention that it can't be done when clearly it can.
Not saying cant, Im saying shouldnt. For all the reasons I have posted above and on the past 20 pages. Few like you keep pushing to change the core drive of this game. If they picked a different model I would be saying the same thing. MMOs are magic and people have been messing with what works for the past 6-8 years and only 1 MMO has done so and made it really well, EVE. Its not worth the risk. If you going to do DAoC RvR then follow what made that work. If you going to do SWG sandbox them make sure you do the core game the same. Add all the modern twists like VO story but dont take away the core game that made it win. If you do, you risk breaking it and in my 15 years of MMOing that happens most times.
=-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle They have a right to play their way to. Faction lock gives them that.
Don't I too?
Because the faction lock system prevents me from playing my way. Easy thing to understand right? Well apparently the deisgners still haven't had that Eureka moment yet!
You see why their design is Soooooo bad?
Change it or not, their limiting design is the cause of any argument or disagreement, not peoples desire to play differnetly to others.
FFS do you think it is a shocking revelation to any game designer/developer to understand people play games differently. You either provide options for people or you accept it will be a niche game. These guys have beein doing this for long enough to realise that there isn't a 1 design fits all so you better allow flexibility in your design.
Matt Frior may have been in the industry for years but his lack of ANY kind of market awareness and design understanding tells me he is probbably a good talker but a shite designer.
Originally posted by Maelwydd Originally posted by Nanfoodle They have a right to play their way to. Faction lock gives them that.
Your taking one line of what I said out of context. Good luck with that.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
It's a good point and I can't completelydisagree with you on that premise but the "shock" to some Elder Scrolls players is "why was this ever a driving force in an Elder Scrolls game?"
Also, "realm pride" only works for those who are invested in the pvp portion of the game. I don't really think the pve people give a damn about realm pride. I think they are more interested in an Elder scrolsl experience. And there are ways to open up the world and give them that. Not optimum (at this stage of the game) to be sure but it's not going to affect something that pve players don't care about.
will it affect the pvp players? Well, if they are going to be spending enough time in the pvp area they might not care. and if the mega server technology really will separate players then it definitely won't be an issue.
I'll tell you, I'm both for pve and pvp and my sense of "realm pride" doesn't hinge on whether I see the enemy in my land but hinges on whether we take the seat of the empire.
edit: look obviously it's not going to be done (unless I can convice them at pax which I'm sure I won't be able to) but that's what forums are for, for the discussion of game ideas.
Originally posted by Sovrath Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Nice talking to someone who isnt dismisive and rude =-) I can see that and would be nice to give everyone everything they wanted but you know the saying. You cant. This is more a get what ya need, not want as a PvE want to go everywhere player. Back in the DAoC days people who fit in the shoes your are talking about had chars on every faction and there was even guilds that that was their focus. PvE and playing all 3 factions. My guess the same will happen here. The mega server will help filter players like that together. If I made the ESO I have to say, I would have made more race options, maybe 6 races a faction. Seems by what the ESO devs have said, there will be lots of PvE, instanved and open world dungeons. Full team dungeons and 2 man dungeons. Is it enough? I dont know.
EDIT: Maybe later patches and updates will have some races join the other factions like SWToR did.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle If I made the ESO I have to say, I would have made more race options, maybe 6 races a faction.
Wait, what? Are you saying that you would add races to TES?
Originally posted by sapphen Originally posted by Nanfoodle If I made the ESO I have to say, I would have made more race options, maybe 6 races a faction.
Still faction lock, but there is no reason why you cant have say some Highelves that joined another faction. Much like a Drizzt thing and also maybe dig up a few more races from lore and add them as well. Say for 6-8 options a faction. But it should be added into the story as to why, not just a FFA all races on all factions. Still need to keep the story and faction pride going.
My whole take on this is this....Idf each individual faction territory is massive with plenty to do in it and explore as they werre in say DAoC then I don't care about nto being able to enter other faction territories.
However if the territories are small and constrictive with a lack of content then yes i have problem with them splitting up the world.
Originally posted by Drakynn My whole take on this is this....Idf each individual faction territory is massive with plenty to do in it and explore as they werre in say DAoC then I don't care about nto being able to enter other faction territories. However if the territories are small and constrictive with a lack of content then yes i have problem with them splitting up the world.
Me too! I want the explorer in me having so much to look at I dont know where to start.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Nice talking to someone who is dismisive and rude =-)
well look everyone has an opinion and I don't necessarily see anyone as being predominantly right or wrong.
Your point of these games being "magic" (meaning all the right elements need to be working together in an optimal way) can't be ignored,.
Having said that, what works/doesn't work for one person is not the same for another. It's my old "what do you see?" question...
You say ... and yet I am on the oppositve side and I see... and so we argue about it for hours as each of us are insistent that what we see is the truth.
And yeah, it's true that if they opened up the game, even in the way I said, it wouldn't affect my "realm pride" (which I still think is a silly thing in an Elder Scrolls game) but I can easily see that it's an important thing to others.
In any case, I get to try the game at PAX so maybe I'll be so bowled over as to completely think that it doesn't matter. Or, I'll think it's a steaming pile. Taking into account that it is supposed to be their best foot forward.
Originally posted by Sovrath Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Sorry there is a typo, I should have said... Nice talking to someone who isnt dismisive and rude =-) Hence the smiles lol. I am typing replies between talking to my customers and sometimes dont proof read. So sorry.
no worries I actually read it as you intended.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle Originally posted by sapphen Originally posted by Nanfoodle If I made the ESO I have to say, I would have made more race options, maybe 6 races a faction.
I dunno about digging up other playable races (although there are some cool ones) but the other idea isn't bad. I do think if they allowed each race two factions to choose from, it would be an improvement from what they currently have.
If I see a mountain that I can't acully get to, off in the distance somewhere, then i'm not going to be playing.
Nothing is off limits in Wow, and that's what i'm loking for in my next mmo. It's just as important as gameplay for me; 50/50.
I can get over instancing into areas if I have total freedom once i'm there.
Concentrate on enjoying yourself, and not on why I shouldn't enjoy myself.
Originally posted by floreairfoot If I see a mountain that I can't acully get to, off in the distance somewhere, then i'm not going to be playing. Nothing is off limits in Wow, and that's what i'm loking for in my next mmo. It's just as important as gameplay for me; 50/50. I can get over instancing into areas if I have total freedom once i'm there.
Even WoW had (I would say has but I have not played for a couple years now) invisible walls. Saying that is actually pretty unfair. Especially when you look at just how much you have given up in many other departments for that "freedom".
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
Every MMO has invisable walls, even WoW lol. Its how many invisable walls that break exploring. For all we know each of the 3 faction maps could be seamless and the size could be an explorers dream. DAoC 3 faction locking map had a huge world for each faction and many open world dungeons.
Its a little soon to say I wont play, fail!
Originally posted by mgilbrtsn much too late. They aren't going to make any fundamental changes this late in the game.
Thank god too!
MMO history - EVE GW2 SWTOR RIFT WAR COH/V EQ2 WOW DAOCTuktz - http://www.heretic.shivtr.com/
Originally posted by Tuktz Originally posted by mgilbrtsn much too late. They aren't going to make any fundamental changes this late in the game.
You make me smile, I hope we end up on the same server. Ooo wait I think we will =-) lol If we end up in the same faction we should go kill stuff sometime!
Originally posted by Nanfoodle Originally posted by Tuktz Originally posted by mgilbrtsn much too late. They aren't going to make any fundamental changes this late in the game.
Don't shatter THAT illusion Sovrath - Nanfoodles entire premise relies on his unsupported assumption that everything faction -related is deeply coded and simple but effective fixes to allow for exploration are IMPOSSIBLE!
IMPOSSIBLE I SAY!
Nothing blinkers someone's ability to see the obvious advantages of change than a strong interest in the status quo...
Nothing supports a baseless position better than redefining the opposing position to suit an otherwise unjustifiable counter-argument.
However... it may just be that Nanfoodle doesn't get it - in which case my above comments are not applicable in this case.
WARNING - PURE THEORY INCOMING!
With the time they have had and the resources they have used, and the fact they have apparently admitted they didn't have time to put all the features they wanted to in the game...
... how likely is it that approximately HALF of their PvE content is MORE THAN TWICE the size of any number of pre-exisiting MMOs whose content didn't last 3 months...
Logic would suggest 100% of the PvE content would have had lets say, ooh, what.... TWICE the chance to satisfy those looking for 'enough' content with one character?
Or is there something fundamentally wrong with my logic here...?
Originally posted by Caliburn101 Originally posted by Sovrath Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Im all for change if its for the better but I also get afteer 15 years of MMOing what players can ask for and get the devs ears. If you dont get that making all of ESO into one big PvE area anyone can go anywhere in, would bring them back to alph testing, I dont know what to tell you. The writers were handed an area and told, here is a map for this faction. Write a story about your soul being stolen and the drive of the game is 3 factions at war. Story with VO and quests will be all about that. Thats before you get to the game itself. Now you have to write new quests, sent actors back to the studios to record new VO. The alpha testing the new content to make sure its ready for beta testing lol.
Make sugestions that can make it into the game. If you dont get that lol Well there is no hope in you seeing the point. Unless you are here just to bash the game? Are you a fan of ESO? If you are and really trying to make it a better game. Try making suggestions that wont scrap millions of bucks in money and 6 years of dev time. Together we could come up with some great ideas to make sure PvE fans are happer.
I don't want the enemy realms in my PVE.
If we could attack eachother, it would ruin the PVE experience for people that just want to PVE and not get griefed. And don't give me that flagging argument. Really ruins the immersion to have to worry about some arbitrary "flag" as to whether someones attackable or not. Besides, regardless of flags, I don't want to be level 10 questing, and a level 50 enemy is there killing my junk. Theres a lot of ways to grief besides killing me. Plus I wouldn't dare attack him and flag myself. Suicide.
If we couldn't attack eachother, again it would be really lame. You'd be seeing all these enemy faction people running around that you couldn't attack.
So, no. Keep them out of my realm's pve area.
Game after game have proven that when you're dealing with a LARGE population of players (not a small RVR niche like with CU), people want that choice as to whether to engage in PVP or not. I think having separately designated areas is a great way to handle that. I always thought the "PVP flagging" method was rediculous.
Besides, it will foster realm pride to PVE with my fellow realm mates, and then make the other realms REALLY feel like strange enemies when I see them in RVR. They're from "some other lands".
Besides, I bet Tamriel IS seamless, it's just that the enemy faction has a huge mordor type wall blocking enemy factions from entering their lands. They have guards to keep you out, and kill you on sight! LOL
It will really encourage that cross faction competition.