Im asking why i initially got turned off by GW2 pvp? And fact is that MMO's that turn people of from the start will struggle tenfold to get them back.
I tried doing alot of BG runs, but it was mostly DPS out of whack and every time i got a good 1 vs 1 going i got added on, or my team mates added my opponent. It was just to small BG's to do anything creative.
WvWvW was just pointless. It was running around zerging keeps back and forth with no feeling of accomplishment at all. Not Realm, guild or personal accomplishment. The keep you defended would fall as soon as the bigger enemy zerg appeard on the horizon.
Sure you can say im here to bash GW2 as that other guy bashed DAoC because i dont know what im talking about.As he didnt know what he was talking about. But ill tell you that ive played all games that had some sort of FFA pvp and most other mmo's that has som other sorts of PvP. But im not playing this one. So why is that?
Is it possible that you....just dont like the game.
And its fine saying "I dont like it" but when you expand it to "every PvPer" it kinda sounds a bit egoistic.
And when bigger force arrives in most cases keep falls. Its how its supposed to be. In fact it would be ultra boring if you could bunker yourself in the keep with few people and still win (which happens, just to remind you, if attacking force is true random zerg).
As anything else in GW2 its designed to be dynamic and fast paced and its great, crapload people enjoy it and theres still crapload guilds/players from DAOC/WAR etc. playing it.
You dont enjoy it, dont play it, plain and simple, but its just you and only you and you dont speak for anyone else.
[mod edit]
Its a fact that most pvp guild i know of dont play GW2. I know a couple large pvp guilds that do play GW2, but they have taken this path in earlier games as well. (playing pvp in themepark games)
And yes i dont like the game, for alot of reason as well. I looked forward to it as most people did, but i was hugly dissapointed.
When it comes to WvWvW keep fighting its all out of whack, if you cant see this then i really cant help you. Some of you people just arent beeing objective about this game. And thats really your problem, luckily.
Yes im sure alot of former people from DAoC and War play WvWvW, but its mosly because the community is starved more than GW2 delivering.
I personally dont play anything right now. Exept single player games. Mostly because im at a total loss at what to play to have fun pvp. I may start up Darkfall when it goes live, but beta isnt fun because of constant server wipes. And that in itself speaks volumes about GW2 pvp. When i would rather do nothing than invest time in it.
Originally posted by Fuggly I played it for a week then I could not stand it anymore. I gave my account to my 9 year old son and he is quite happily having a good ol time. Not a complete loss, just way too easy and not very engaging for me as an adult. Probably around the lv of my boy since he is having such a good time, so I cant really knock it since it is holding someones attention at least
You just described all MMOs. You finally figured it out. Gratz
Dungeons being pathetically hard ? You are kidding right here right? There is no hard dungeon here, maybe for bad pugs or players who had wrong build and full berserker gear but for normal friend group/guild group or even avarage random group there is no hard dungeon.
I dont know what you guys are used to but there are a lot more harder mmorpgs harder and have a lot higher learning curve than easy GW2 and yet you complain gw2 is hard. Will kids over the next 10 years complain that creating an account is too hard for them, please nerf it !!!
just lols
What is just lols i this part:
"there are a lot more harder mmorpgs harder and have a lot higher learning curve"
riiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Do tell of those "hard" MMOs. need a bit of laugh.
There is only one ive played (and ive pretty much played em all), wel llearning curve at least.
Posts like these are a trap just like how you asked for example of 'open world MMO like GW2' and when i gave you one you got all upset. I know giving you any examples won't do any good but as far as learning cuve goes maybe you should try games like EVE, Ryzom, TSW, FFXI etc.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.' -Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid." -Luke McKinney
Posts like these are a trap just like how you asked for example of 'open world MMO like GW2' and when i gave you one you got all upset. I know giving you any examples won't do any good but as far as learning cuve goes maybe you should try games like EVE, Ryzom, TSW, FFXI etc.
No, i didnt asked for "open world MMO". That was your strawman. I guess you finally figured out you were wrong lol. You can apologize for spamming that thread and getting all upset once you figured out you were wrong.
I guess you missed the part "i pretty much played them all".
Nah don't generalize all mmos are like that because even the crappy wizardry online which is what I'm currently playing has a more fun replay value than this if you like specializing your characters for different roles despite it's obvious flaws and glitches.
Originally posted by bloodaxes Nah don't generalize all mmos are like that because even the crappy wizardry online which is what I'm currently playing has a more fun replay value than this if you like specializing your characters for different roles despite it's obvious flaws and glitches.
Of course.
And GW2 is great for people that dont want simplistic approach of specializing and being stuck in only 1 role or simplistic combat with set in stone roles.
To each their own, some prefer more complexity in their games though.
Posts like these are a trap just like how you asked for example of 'open world MMO like GW2' and when i gave you one you got all upset. I know giving you any examples won't do any good but as far as learning cuve goes maybe you should try games like EVE, Ryzom, TSW, FFXI etc.
No, i didnt asked for "open world MMO". That was your strawman. I guess you finally figured out you were wrong lol. You can apologize for spamming that thread.
I guess you missed the part "i pretty much played them all".
I wasn't wrong in anything because Vanguard is a very open ended MMO. I gave you an example, you didn't like it and i decided to bow out of the argument because i know you are kind of poster who somehow is more focused on winning the internet than to bother about actual discussion. I mean you just joined thise wesbite and whatever posts you have are mostly personal attacks. This is the reason why i try to avoid getting in discussion with people like you.
And yes i know you said you played most of them and honestly i am not even surprised by your repsonse..but i thought i will give it a shot anyways. If you say GW2 has more steep learning curve than EVE than who am i to argue?
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.' -Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid." -Luke McKinney
I wasn't wrong in anything because Vanguard is a very open ended MMO. I gave you an example, you didn't like it and i decided to bow out of the argument because i know you are kind of poster who somehow is more focused on winning the internet than to bother about actual discussion. I mean you just joined thise wesbite and whatever posts you have are mostly personal attacks. This is the reason why i try to avoid getting in discussion with people like you.
And yes i know you said you played most of them and honestly i am not even surprised by your repsonse..but i thought i will give it a shot anyways. If you say GW2 has more steep learning curve than EVE than who am i to argue?
Wow, youre still at it. Let it go man. You were wrong, your post history shows that you want to arue just to argue without any facts.
I mentione one, didnt I? Oh, yah, its "just" a bit of oversight on your part i imagine lol (looks at above statemet)
I wasn't wrong in anything because Vanguard is a very open ended MMO. I gave you an example, you didn't like it and i decided to bow out of the argument because i know you are kind of poster who somehow is more focused on winning the internet than to bother about actual discussion. I mean you just joined thise wesbite and whatever posts you have are mostly personal attacks. This is the reason why i try to avoid getting in discussion with people like you.
And yes i know you said you played most of them and honestly i am not even surprised by your repsonse..but i thought i will give it a shot anyways. If you say GW2 has more steep learning curve than EVE than who am i to argue?
Wow, youre still at it. Let it go man. You were wrong, your post history shows that you want to arue just to argue without any facts.
I mentione one, didnt I? Oh, yah, its "just" a bit of oversight on your part i imagine lol (looks at above statemet)
Umm i let it go that is why i decided to stop arguing with you on that topic. If i was not the 'let go type' i would have easily argued with you for another 10 pages. By the way only because you keep saying 'you were wrong' doesn't mean it is true. As far as facts are concerned you somehow confuse your personal opinions with facts. Because i have yet to see any 'facts from your side'.
You asked for examples of MMOS with higher learning curve and i gave you few. I wonder why you even keep asking these questions if you don't want an answer.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.' -Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid." -Luke McKinney
I wasn't wrong in anything because Vanguard is a very open ended MMO. I gave you an example, you didn't like it and i decided to bow out of the argument because i know you are kind of poster who somehow is more focused on winning the internet than to bother about actual discussion. I mean you just joined thise wesbite and whatever posts you have are mostly personal attacks. This is the reason why i try to avoid getting in discussion with people like you.
And yes i know you said you played most of them and honestly i am not even surprised by your repsonse..but i thought i will give it a shot anyways. If you say GW2 has more steep learning curve than EVE than who am i to argue?
Wow, youre still at it. Let it go man. You were wrong, your post history shows that you want to arue just to argue without any facts.
I mentione one, didnt I? Oh, yah, its "just" a bit of oversight on your part i imagine lol (looks at above statemet)
Umm i let it go that is why i decided to stop arguing with you on that topic. If i was not the 'let go type' i would have easily argued with you for another 10 pages. By the way only because you keep saying 'you were wrong' doesn't mean it is true. As far as facts are concerned you somehow confuse your personal opinions with facts. Because i have yet to see any 'facts from your side'.
You asked for examples of MMOS with higher learning curve and i gave you few. I wonder why you even keep asking these questions if you don't want an answer.
I agree, its wise to let go when you figure out you are wrong, Kudos to that.
You gave 1 (valid) example and i said i played one. We are in agreement there. i dont see any problems there, you again argue just for sake of arguing?
Originally posted by Doogiehowser You asked for examples of MMOS with higher learning curve and i gave you few. I wonder why you even keep asking these questions if you don't want an answer.
Just because you say so doesn't make it true either. Just because you have difficulties learning a specific game doesn't make the game harder for everyone. I have yet to find a MMORPG with a really difficult learning curve, and I played all the mainstream ones and most smaller ones since Ultima Online (not counting muds before, only graphical MMORPGs).
But then I never was the kind of player who confuses "a lot of tedious micromanagement" with "difficulty". "Difficulty" for me means "you better pay attention to what happens on the screen if you don't want to die". GW2 achieves that just fine, actually better than all the trinity based WoW clones with threat based tanking.
EvE indeed has a steep learning curve but it plays different than GW2 and learning comes mostly before combat.
And on the other matter learning that you need 4/5/6/7/x other players with specific classes (that are clearly defined) just to be able to do anything is not really that steep
But in general, yah, MMOs arent really thing that require lots of learning, especially "old scool" MMOs didnt rely on that but "difficulty" came solely form "it takes ages to do anything". But it was pretty challenge free it just took enormous amount of grind. In most cases for me it was most challenging to stay awake while doing it
Originally posted by Doogiehowser You asked for examples of MMOS with higher learning curve and i gave you few. I wonder why you even keep asking these questions if you don't want an answer.
Just because you say so doesn't make it true either. Just because you have difficulties learning a specific game doesn't make the game harder for everyone. I have yet to find a MMORPG with a really difficult learning curve, and I played all the mainstream ones and most smaller ones since Ultima Online (not counting muds before, only graphical MMORPGs).
But then I never was the kind of player who confuses "a lot of tedious micromanagement" with "difficulty". "Difficulty" for me means "you better pay attention to what happens on the screen if you don't want to die". GW2 achieves that just fine, actually better than all the trinity based WoW clones with threat based tanking.
EvE indeed has a steep learning curve but it plays different than GW2 and learning comes most before hand combat.
And on the other matter learning that you need 4/5/6/7/x other players with specific classes (that are clearly defined) just to be able to do anything is not really that steep
Yeah, I'd give you EvE as being harder than average to learn, but there's also a lot of tedium involved, and to me, tedium doesn't equal difficulty.
Tedium is subjective
Its just a matter of lerning curve here. MMOs are notorious for not really having one, with few exeptions like EvE and GW2.
Hell even now people have trouble with daily dodger lol, not to mention "combo field killer" which they had to remove from daily rotation he he
Chess is actually good comparison for gw2. ..easy to pick up and play.. Hard to master... And a good player will tear you apart in both games...on the surface chess feels very simplistic as well
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
What I don't understand is how we went from all "End game" enemies having 4-8 abilities to explorable enemies only having 1-3 abilities, and the 1-3 abilities that they do have hardly even matter, only in numbers will you ever find trash mobs remotely threatening.
Only recently have we been gifted with enemies with skills that at least made me say "Hmph, that was mildly interesting." In comparison the first time I got hit with Panic, I shut everything down, and screwed my entire team, leaving us asking what the #%#@ just happened.
I'm gonna compare GW2 to DAoC which is my favorite MMO:
Exping: I was never challenged from level 1 to 80. It didn't matter what quests I did, which skills I used and in what order, who my teammates were etc. The exp was about the same whether I tried or not.
Compare that to DAoC: a great group could exp 3x - 4x times faster than an average group and about 10x faster than a soloer. Skill/planning/knowledge of the world and spawn camps/group composition mattered A LOT. Someone who doesn't play well very soon will get shunned by the players around his level and has to solo(VERY slow and painful leveling) and wait for the next generation to find groups again (if he improved).
WvW: Again I felt my individual effort or skill didn't matter at all because the fights are mostly zerg vs zerg, the CC is very low duration and affects only 1 guy, the classes are all very similar etc. Also even if I played well I didn't get rewarded for it since kills don't matter, only keeps. There is no personal progression (and the one they will add sounds kind of bad), there is no organized outdoor group vs group, the skill cap is way too low (it is way too easy to play optimal or close to optimal), killing other players doesn't matter, no killspam in chat, no enemy names, each side has the same races and classes etc.
In contrast to DAoC where 1 player COULD make the difference in both outdoor 8v8 and zerg vs zerg / relic raids etc. A great AoE mezz (which lasted 1+ min in DAoC) could shut down a whole group or a whole zerg, a stun at the right moment on a key enemy player, a change of assist target, a well timed insta groupheal or intercept or guard change etc.The skill cap was so high it was impossible to play anywhere close to optimal. Skilled players became famous in their own and enemy realms etc.
Outdoor bosses seemed not scale well at all with a high number of players (way too easy).
I won't talk about dungeons and sPvP since I don't like them in any other game.
i won't argue older MMOs did offer a greater challenge overall.. i remember the EQ days and AC and all that.. but in this generation of MMOs I do find GW2 a bit more of a challenge overall than most current MMOs and in certain aspects as challenging as some of the harder aspects of the older MMOs.
And which aspects are they ? nothing in GW2 is as challenging as Ryzom, EvE, EQ or DAOC. As for current MMO's, nope GW2 is as easy as it get's.
I also am not sure how long it's been since you played WvW but it is hardly just zerg vs zerg.. especially in the higher tier servers.. You have tons of small groups breaking off and lots of commanders sending people all over to defend this or take over that.. now of course you need zergs to take over large keeps and castles which is no difffern't than what you needed in daoc in that respect. There is lots of organized guild vs guild going on in my server now as well as numerous guilds band together in forces all the time.. honestly most complaints I see from WvW on this aspect of it are from people who probably played at launch when no one knew what the hell was going on and just followed the zerg..
Now I will admit WvW does need several more forms of "progression" to keep people around longer and hopefully this months patch is the first step in the right direction
Also on scaling, events scale to a point.. Once it reaches a point of saturation it doesn't scale any higher which makes many events way to easy with a zerg of people but again this was during launch time to a couple months in, the zergs have spread and thinned out so it's not much of an issue anymore aside from the dragons
also if you want to see some good skilled WvW small scale fights search "shatter cat" in youtube and watch his videos. Great fights and all small scale fights in WvW
Oh, and yes i have two level 80 charactrers in GW2 and have done just about everything in the game up to Xmas 2012. Most of my time spent in WvWvW which i do consider to be nothing more than a pointless zerg.
Now of course this is just my opinion and i'm sure you don't agree, that's why i'm interested in hearing on why you don't agree.
Oh and this isn't a baiting post, i'm interested in what features in GW2 are more challenging that older mmo's and current mmo's.
Hopefully a mod won't edit my post as it's a fair question to your opinion on GW2.
Oh, and yes i have two level 80 charactrers in GW2 and have done just about everything in the game up to Xmas 2012. Most of my time spent in WvWvW which i do consider to be nothing more than a pointless zerg.
Now of course this is just my opinion and i'm sure you don't agree, that's why i'm interested in hearing on why you don't agree.
Oh and this isn't a baiting thread, i'm interested in what features in GW2 are more challenging that older mmo's and current mmo's.
Hopefully a mod won't edit my post as it's a fair question to your opinion on GW2.
it's all perspective say i jumped in DAOC and never did anything but the bigger battles.. all it looks like is a mash of spell effects and zergs of people https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiIymOQKuI0 now I will admit daoc had the incentives for RvR pegged down better but at launch it did not have much either and grew into that over time. you have plenty of ways to break from the zerg and be usefull to your server and help them win in this game.. obviously it needs to be a bit more involved in the "incentives" for many and they are working on that. I remember playing EvE years ago had no clue what I was doing but joined up with my friends federation, did a large scale battle with them just really sticking with my buddy who had been playing the game for years.. all it looked like was a light show of effects going on didn't feel like any rhyme or reason for anything just a mindless zergfest.. was it? no clue because I had no idea what was going on. You could easily in any game with large scale combat jump into the zerg and just spam buttons but to assume that's all there is to it is ridiculous.
It has been covered in this thread numerous times but overall I do not find gw2 a hard game.. but it does imho have a harder learning curve to understanding combat well than many other MMOs.. this has to do with several things such as the lack of holy trinity and the need to be constantly moving in battle and not just sit and trade blows. O the flip side you could easily hit 80 and not really have a firm grasp on combat at all.. say you just followed groups around or always played with skilled people you could use thme and never really need to learn anything. Look at the dungeons and other harder encounters like the cathedrals in Orr. Good groups can run through these(usually) with no issue. But people without a firm grasp on the combat mechanics and traits and combo fields and how to properly swap between the differn't roles get destroyed in dungeons and these bigger events. You see the complaints on the official forums and here all the time dungeons are way ot hard even in this thread someone said that.. then you can see groups on youtube blowing through every explorable no issue. If combat was faceroll easy and had no strategy at all how could this be possible at all?
This is a game where combat seems very easy and simplistic on the surface but in my experience is not at all once you get into it more.. sure many dissagree but I notice in games that stray from the familiar people bash and call crap or mindless because they don't wan't to take the time to learn something new.
One of the challenges I found in this game compared to others is the tells and red rings weren't as easily avoided on a majority of enemies as most other games.. in numerous games I havep layed in the past it was very easy to get out the way of an attack or know exactly where not to stand when fighting a certain encounter.. in gw2 the extra unpredicitability adds to the difficulty in my opinion and i can honestly say I have died more times questing in GW2 than most other MMOs of thep ast 10 years or so..
In my experience in gw2 there is plenty of challenges to be tackled and teamwork is rewarded(rewards are very subjective as what I feel is rewarding may not be what you feel is) obviously everyones mileage may vary in that is my experience with the game and why I enjoy it as much as I do.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Originally posted by bloodaxes Nah don't generalize all mmos are like that because even the crappy wizardry online which is what I'm currently playing has a more fun replay value than this if you like specializing your characters for different roles despite it's obvious flaws and glitches.
Of course.
And GW2 is great for people that dont want simplistic approach of specializing and being stuck in only 1 role or simplistic combat with set in stone roles.
To each their own, some prefer more complexity in their games though.
The fact is it's simple.
There's no choice of skills in weapons only in traits which some are pretty good not to have equipped so lessens even more choice.
In wizardry you can class change and inherit some skills from said class even passives, when you level up you get random stat ups not fixed and magic and healing require different stats just like thieves require more dex than strength for their skill damage.
It's more min maxing than straight forward but I like it more than the simplistic version of gw2 because I really hate how they made the skills options from weapons to fill exactly all the hotkey bar.
just becuase some events require a lot of people does not make the game hard.
who said the game was hard?
you implied it. with your thread title.
Its true, the words "everything is a cakewalk" is an implication that "the game is hard". Truly. It could not possibly mean that "not everything is easy".
...The thread title is "Everything is a cakewalk? please show me". The first sentence is a question, and that paired with the statement "please show me" implies that the game is not a cakewalk. Most people will translate that as saying the game is hard.
Derp...
As you SAY...the QUESTION is "EVERYTHING is a cakewalk?" So how can the implication with "please show me" then be EVERYTHING is hard and NOT SOME THINGS are hard? Hurka freaking durr.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Originally posted by bloodaxes Nah don't generalize all mmos are like that because even the crappy wizardry online which is what I'm currently playing has a more fun replay value than this if you like specializing your characters for different roles despite it's obvious flaws and glitches.
Of course.
And GW2 is great for people that dont want simplistic approach of specializing and being stuck in only 1 role or simplistic combat with set in stone roles.
To each their own, some prefer more complexity in their games though.
The fact is it's simple.
There's no choice of skills in weapons only in traits which some are pretty good not to have equipped so lessens even more choice.
In wizardry you can class change and inherit some skills from said class even passives, when you level up you get random stat ups not fixed and magic and healing require different stats just like thieves require more dex than strength for their skill damage.
It's more min maxing than straight forward but I like it more than the simplistic version of gw2 because I really hate how they made the skills options from weapons to fill exactly all the hotkey bar.
just shows gw2 takes the minimalist route with skills(even though overall you have a damn big pool of total skills considering you have no fireball 1, 2 ,3 ,4 ,5 like many other games)... but when does # of overall skills = how difficult and complex a game is?.. it may be too restricted and limited in the amount of skills for osme people but you still have tons of options in how you play most classes.. each class has numerous builds and ways to play the class depending on weapons/traits/sigils/runes/equipment loadout.. i've gone through this many times but at 80 i can play my mesmer pretty much however I want.. i can go high burst, i can go condition, i can go full survivability, i could go mantra healing build, i can do stealth focues, melee focused, all ranged. I have numerous ways to use my clones in a variety of situations depending what weapons I have equiped and what my loadout is. Just because I'm limited in skills doesn not overly limit me to the amount of ways I can play the class. I found especially once you hit 60+ every class has a lot of differn't playstyles depending how you want to play the class
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Originally posted by bloodaxes Nah don't generalize all mmos are like that because even the crappy wizardry online which is what I'm currently playing has a more fun replay value than this if you like specializing your characters for different roles despite it's obvious flaws and glitches.
Of course.
And GW2 is great for people that dont want simplistic approach of specializing and being stuck in only 1 role or simplistic combat with set in stone roles.
To each their own, some prefer more complexity in their games though.
The fact is it's simple.
There's no choice of skills in weapons only in traits which some are pretty good not to have equipped so lessens even more choice.
In wizardry you can class change and inherit some skills from said class even passives, when you level up you get random stat ups not fixed and magic and healing require different stats just like thieves require more dex than strength for their skill damage.
It's more min maxing than straight forward but I like it more than the simplistic version of gw2 because I really hate how they made the skills options from weapons to fill exactly all the hotkey bar.
Your fact is simply not a fact.
There is NO class limited to "a" weapon and thus NOT limited to skills. In fact, if you look at the actual NUMBER of total skills to choose from, it surpases most games released in the last 6 years.
My hunter has 4 weapons with 5 different skill sets, these sets are VASTLY different and for DIFFERENT ROLES. My Longbow skills are a perfect ranged DPS for multi mobs with its Barrage, a small CC and a high DPS attack. Short bow provides better CC with crippling shot and cuncussion. 2hd offers decent DPS and slight off tank ability with counterattack and hilt bash for stun. Spear is a better off tank choice with dart to vuln and bleed them and counterstrike for knockback and Man O War to root.
Then there are the 3 skill weapons of Sword Axe and Dagger with 3 off-hand 2 skill items. All of these provide yet more VERY DIFFERENT options. Hell, sword with warhorn offers a great DPS + group buff option that vastly helps the group.
Either way, thats 39 different SKILLS to choose from, not including traits...you throw in Healing Spring and you can provide your group with EVERY aspect...DPS, off tank, CC, heals.
As for your ending comments...are you saying games like WoW didnt make you get different armor sets for different builds?!? Cause you did...it would be crazy if GW2 allowed you to swap out roles without also needing the different gear to do it effectively.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Originally posted by bloodaxes Nah don't generalize all mmos are like that because even the crappy wizardry online which is what I'm currently playing has a more fun replay value than this if you like specializing your characters for different roles despite it's obvious flaws and glitches.
Of course.
And GW2 is great for people that dont want simplistic approach of specializing and being stuck in only 1 role or simplistic combat with set in stone roles.
To each their own, some prefer more complexity in their games though.
The fact is it's simple.
There's no choice of skills in weapons only in traits which some are pretty good not to have equipped so lessens even more choice.
In wizardry you can class change and inherit some skills from said class even passives, when you level up you get random stat ups not fixed and magic and healing require different stats just like thieves require more dex than strength for their skill damage.
It's more min maxing than straight forward but I like it more than the simplistic version of gw2 because I really hate how they made the skills options from weapons to fill exactly all the hotkey bar.
So in wizardry you have to reroll so many times until RNG gives you best stats. Grrrrrrreat system lol. I wouldnt play something like that if you paid me.
And GW2 is far far away from simplistic. It goes so far that you can make a build dependant on certain type of food/vendor items if you want to. Theres so many things to choose from that its great (its soemewhat reduced in sPvP because of balance)
Aerowyn listed all the things that impact your build and you have to take all that in consideration when building to the point of individual gear piece since you have complete freedom. Theres no BiS piece of gear (it makes me laugh every time someon mentiones "BiS" in GW2)
Oh, and every stat impacts something different in GW2 so i dont see how its even relevant.
just finished up fractals 15.. was actually a lot of fun.. considering before this I had only done 1-5 but guildy needed help.. It was pretty frustrating at times you need to be quick to get the 3 wisps back before the time runs out.. luckily if you have a mesmer you can portal the center where the trees close off to get everyone through. Think the hardest part was the damn harpys on the jumping platforms we had 2 mesmers and a guardian all doing are reflections spaced apart but still to many of them and we kept getting knocked off but slowly picked them off and made our way up.
The golem boss was pretty fun having the two consoles you need ot charge up on either side adding a nice mechanic to the fight.. overall i'd say in a PUG it would of been a very frustrating and hard dungeon but with my guildys it was a bit challenging but a lot of fun.. really enjoying the fractals more than I thought I would
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
You can do this and throw it at ANY MMO ON THE MARKET in taking on group content without a group. The thing is, a lot of those games (GW2 can be included) it might NOT be possible due to the way the mechanics work in which soloing you have no tools at your disposal to allow you to do so.
Difficulty (to me) is taking content that is designed for a certain number of players and doing it with that number and having a challenge with it... a FAIR challenge mind you.
A good example in which a game does this is Tera Online. BAM are made to be for multiple people, yet the way the game has designed it, skill can play an actual factor in this. You would need to know to time your attacks and act in just the right way and with virtually any class in game you can do it (with some variences in how efficiently of course). You can't consider restrictive or bad design choices the game has in place as a 'challenge'. Just cause I can play Super Mario Bros on my NES with a power glove and its a lot more challenging doesn't mean its a fair challenge, specially when I can use a controller and its a lot better.
Its just silly to try and throw stuff by design was made for so many people and claim doing for less then it was designed for as a sign of difficulty. If so you can practically say NO GAME is a cakewalk if your playing as it wasn't intended it was to be played in terms of numbers of people doing it.
You can do this and throw it at ANY MMO ON THE MARKET in taking on group content without a group. The thing is, a lot of those games (GW2 can be included) it might NOT be possible due to the way the mechanics work in which soloing you have no tools at your disposal to allow you to do so.
Difficulty (to me) is taking content that is designed for a certain number of players and doing it with that number and having a challenge with it... a FAIR challenge mind you.
A good example in which a game does this is Tera Online. BAM are made to be for multiple people, yet the way the game has designed it, skill can play an actual factor in this. You would need to know to time your attacks and act in just the right way and with virtually any class in game you can do it (with some variences in how efficiently of course). You can't consider restrictive or bad design choices the game has in place as a 'challenge'. Just cause I can play Super Mario Bros on my NES with a power glove and its a lot more challenging doesn't mean its a fair challenge, specially when I can use a controller and its a lot better.
Its just silly to try and throw stuff by design was made for so many people and claim doing for less then it was designed for as a sign of difficulty. If so you can practically say NO GAME is a cakewalk if your playing as it wasn't intended it was to be played in terms of numbers of people doing it.
think you are missing the point.. only reason I said in the OP for someone to show me a video of them soloing a catherdral event is because I have seen numerous post say anything in this game is so easy you could auto attack your way through anything.. it was more of a rhetorical request. Doing the cathedral events with the intended amount of players 10-15 is actually still a good challenge for most groups. Think one of the main things in this game not many(who played only near launch) have actually done much of the content with the "intended" number of people. At launch you could hardly find a event anywhere without an extreme over saturation of people. In turn everything was dead easy as the events don't scale infinitely. Now again i'm not trying to claim this game is hard it's not a non stop frustratingly hard experience like dark souls is(to me at least) but there is plenty of challenging content when done with the "intended" amount of people when compared to the other MMOs of the past several years. I will also admit a lot has to do with learning to adapt to a non-trinity based game. Much like the trinity games though once you know the dungeon/content inside and out it becomes a breeze but this goes for any MMO i have played
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Comments
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Its a fact that most pvp guild i know of dont play GW2. I know a couple large pvp guilds that do play GW2, but they have taken this path in earlier games as well. (playing pvp in themepark games)
And yes i dont like the game, for alot of reason as well. I looked forward to it as most people did, but i was hugly dissapointed.
When it comes to WvWvW keep fighting its all out of whack, if you cant see this then i really cant help you. Some of you people just arent beeing objective about this game. And thats really your problem, luckily.
Yes im sure alot of former people from DAoC and War play WvWvW, but its mosly because the community is starved more than GW2 delivering.
I personally dont play anything right now. Exept single player games. Mostly because im at a total loss at what to play to have fun pvp. I may start up Darkfall when it goes live, but beta isnt fun because of constant server wipes. And that in itself speaks volumes about GW2 pvp. When i would rather do nothing than invest time in it.
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You just described all MMOs. You finally figured it out. Gratz
Posts like these are a trap just like how you asked for example of 'open world MMO like GW2' and when i gave you one you got all upset. I know giving you any examples won't do any good but as far as learning cuve goes maybe you should try games like EVE, Ryzom, TSW, FFXI etc.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney
No, i didnt asked for "open world MMO". That was your strawman. I guess you finally figured out you were wrong lol. You can apologize for spamming that thread and getting all upset once you figured out you were wrong.
I guess you missed the part "i pretty much played them all".
Of course.
And GW2 is great for people that dont want simplistic approach of specializing and being stuck in only 1 role or simplistic combat with set in stone roles.
To each their own, some prefer more complexity in their games though.
I wasn't wrong in anything because Vanguard is a very open ended MMO. I gave you an example, you didn't like it and i decided to bow out of the argument because i know you are kind of poster who somehow is more focused on winning the internet than to bother about actual discussion. I mean you just joined thise wesbite and whatever posts you have are mostly personal attacks. This is the reason why i try to avoid getting in discussion with people like you.
And yes i know you said you played most of them and honestly i am not even surprised by your repsonse..but i thought i will give it a shot anyways. If you say GW2 has more steep learning curve than EVE than who am i to argue?
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney
Wow, youre still at it. Let it go man. You were wrong, your post history shows that you want to arue just to argue without any facts.
I mentione one, didnt I? Oh, yah, its "just" a bit of oversight on your part i imagine lol (looks at above statemet)
Umm i let it go that is why i decided to stop arguing with you on that topic. If i was not the 'let go type' i would have easily argued with you for another 10 pages. By the way only because you keep saying 'you were wrong' doesn't mean it is true. As far as facts are concerned you somehow confuse your personal opinions with facts. Because i have yet to see any 'facts from your side'.
You asked for examples of MMOS with higher learning curve and i gave you few. I wonder why you even keep asking these questions if you don't want an answer.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney
I agree, its wise to let go when you figure out you are wrong, Kudos to that.
You gave 1 (valid) example and i said i played one. We are in agreement there. i dont see any problems there, you again argue just for sake of arguing?
EvE indeed has a steep learning curve but it plays different than GW2 and learning comes mostly before combat.
And on the other matter learning that you need 4/5/6/7/x other players with specific classes (that are clearly defined) just to be able to do anything is not really that steep
But in general, yah, MMOs arent really thing that require lots of learning, especially "old scool" MMOs didnt rely on that but "difficulty" came solely form "it takes ages to do anything". But it was pretty challenge free it just took enormous amount of grind. In most cases for me it was most challenging to stay awake while doing it
Tedium is subjective
Its just a matter of lerning curve here. MMOs are notorious for not really having one, with few exeptions like EvE and GW2.
Hell even now people have trouble with daily dodger lol, not to mention "combo field killer" which they had to remove from daily rotation he he
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
What I don't understand is how we went from all "End game" enemies having 4-8 abilities to explorable enemies only having 1-3 abilities, and the 1-3 abilities that they do have hardly even matter, only in numbers will you ever find trash mobs remotely threatening.
Only recently have we been gifted with enemies with skills that at least made me say "Hmph, that was mildly interesting." In comparison the first time I got hit with Panic, I shut everything down, and screwed my entire team, leaving us asking what the #%#@ just happened.
Oh, and yes i have two level 80 charactrers in GW2 and have done just about everything in the game up to Xmas 2012. Most of my time spent in WvWvW which i do consider to be nothing more than a pointless zerg.
Now of course this is just my opinion and i'm sure you don't agree, that's why i'm interested in hearing on why you don't agree.
Oh and this isn't a baiting post, i'm interested in what features in GW2 are more challenging that older mmo's and current mmo's.
Hopefully a mod won't edit my post as it's a fair question to your opinion on GW2.
it's all perspective say i jumped in DAOC and never did anything but the bigger battles.. all it looks like is a mash of spell effects and zergs of people https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiIymOQKuI0 now I will admit daoc had the incentives for RvR pegged down better but at launch it did not have much either and grew into that over time. you have plenty of ways to break from the zerg and be usefull to your server and help them win in this game.. obviously it needs to be a bit more involved in the "incentives" for many and they are working on that. I remember playing EvE years ago had no clue what I was doing but joined up with my friends federation, did a large scale battle with them just really sticking with my buddy who had been playing the game for years.. all it looked like was a light show of effects going on didn't feel like any rhyme or reason for anything just a mindless zergfest.. was it? no clue because I had no idea what was going on. You could easily in any game with large scale combat jump into the zerg and just spam buttons but to assume that's all there is to it is ridiculous.
It has been covered in this thread numerous times but overall I do not find gw2 a hard game.. but it does imho have a harder learning curve to understanding combat well than many other MMOs.. this has to do with several things such as the lack of holy trinity and the need to be constantly moving in battle and not just sit and trade blows. O the flip side you could easily hit 80 and not really have a firm grasp on combat at all.. say you just followed groups around or always played with skilled people you could use thme and never really need to learn anything. Look at the dungeons and other harder encounters like the cathedrals in Orr. Good groups can run through these(usually) with no issue. But people without a firm grasp on the combat mechanics and traits and combo fields and how to properly swap between the differn't roles get destroyed in dungeons and these bigger events. You see the complaints on the official forums and here all the time dungeons are way ot hard even in this thread someone said that.. then you can see groups on youtube blowing through every explorable no issue. If combat was faceroll easy and had no strategy at all how could this be possible at all?
This is a game where combat seems very easy and simplistic on the surface but in my experience is not at all once you get into it more.. sure many dissagree but I notice in games that stray from the familiar people bash and call crap or mindless because they don't wan't to take the time to learn something new.
One of the challenges I found in this game compared to others is the tells and red rings weren't as easily avoided on a majority of enemies as most other games.. in numerous games I havep layed in the past it was very easy to get out the way of an attack or know exactly where not to stand when fighting a certain encounter.. in gw2 the extra unpredicitability adds to the difficulty in my opinion and i can honestly say I have died more times questing in GW2 than most other MMOs of thep ast 10 years or so..
In my experience in gw2 there is plenty of challenges to be tackled and teamwork is rewarded(rewards are very subjective as what I feel is rewarding may not be what you feel is) obviously everyones mileage may vary in that is my experience with the game and why I enjoy it as much as I do.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
The fact is it's simple.
There's no choice of skills in weapons only in traits which some are pretty good not to have equipped so lessens even more choice.
In wizardry you can class change and inherit some skills from said class even passives, when you level up you get random stat ups not fixed and magic and healing require different stats just like thieves require more dex than strength for their skill damage.
It's more min maxing than straight forward but I like it more than the simplistic version of gw2 because I really hate how they made the skills options from weapons to fill exactly all the hotkey bar.
Derp...
As you SAY...the QUESTION is "EVERYTHING is a cakewalk?" So how can the implication with "please show me" then be EVERYTHING is hard and NOT SOME THINGS are hard? Hurka freaking durr.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
just shows gw2 takes the minimalist route with skills(even though overall you have a damn big pool of total skills considering you have no fireball 1, 2 ,3 ,4 ,5 like many other games)... but when does # of overall skills = how difficult and complex a game is?.. it may be too restricted and limited in the amount of skills for osme people but you still have tons of options in how you play most classes.. each class has numerous builds and ways to play the class depending on weapons/traits/sigils/runes/equipment loadout.. i've gone through this many times but at 80 i can play my mesmer pretty much however I want.. i can go high burst, i can go condition, i can go full survivability, i could go mantra healing build, i can do stealth focues, melee focused, all ranged. I have numerous ways to use my clones in a variety of situations depending what weapons I have equiped and what my loadout is. Just because I'm limited in skills doesn not overly limit me to the amount of ways I can play the class. I found especially once you hit 60+ every class has a lot of differn't playstyles depending how you want to play the class
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Your fact is simply not a fact.
There is NO class limited to "a" weapon and thus NOT limited to skills. In fact, if you look at the actual NUMBER of total skills to choose from, it surpases most games released in the last 6 years.
My hunter has 4 weapons with 5 different skill sets, these sets are VASTLY different and for DIFFERENT ROLES. My Longbow skills are a perfect ranged DPS for multi mobs with its Barrage, a small CC and a high DPS attack. Short bow provides better CC with crippling shot and cuncussion. 2hd offers decent DPS and slight off tank ability with counterattack and hilt bash for stun. Spear is a better off tank choice with dart to vuln and bleed them and counterstrike for knockback and Man O War to root.
Then there are the 3 skill weapons of Sword Axe and Dagger with 3 off-hand 2 skill items. All of these provide yet more VERY DIFFERENT options. Hell, sword with warhorn offers a great DPS + group buff option that vastly helps the group.
Either way, thats 39 different SKILLS to choose from, not including traits...you throw in Healing Spring and you can provide your group with EVERY aspect...DPS, off tank, CC, heals.
As for your ending comments...are you saying games like WoW didnt make you get different armor sets for different builds?!? Cause you did...it would be crazy if GW2 allowed you to swap out roles without also needing the different gear to do it effectively.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
So in wizardry you have to reroll so many times until RNG gives you best stats. Grrrrrrreat system lol. I wouldnt play something like that if you paid me.
And GW2 is far far away from simplistic. It goes so far that you can make a build dependant on certain type of food/vendor items if you want to. Theres so many things to choose from that its great (its soemewhat reduced in sPvP because of balance)
Aerowyn listed all the things that impact your build and you have to take all that in consideration when building to the point of individual gear piece since you have complete freedom. Theres no BiS piece of gear (it makes me laugh every time someon mentiones "BiS" in GW2)
Oh, and every stat impacts something different in GW2 so i dont see how its even relevant.
[mod edit]
When someone says GW2 is empty, I log in and take a screenshot of dozens of people.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
just finished up fractals 15.. was actually a lot of fun.. considering before this I had only done 1-5 but guildy needed help.. It was pretty frustrating at times you need to be quick to get the 3 wisps back before the time runs out.. luckily if you have a mesmer you can portal the center where the trees close off to get everyone through. Think the hardest part was the damn harpys on the jumping platforms we had 2 mesmers and a guardian all doing are reflections spaced apart but still to many of them and we kept getting knocked off but slowly picked them off and made our way up.
The golem boss was pretty fun having the two consoles you need ot charge up on either side adding a nice mechanic to the fight.. overall i'd say in a PUG it would of been a very frustrating and hard dungeon but with my guildys it was a bit challenging but a lot of fun.. really enjoying the fractals more than I thought I would
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
You can do this and throw it at ANY MMO ON THE MARKET in taking on group content without a group. The thing is, a lot of those games (GW2 can be included) it might NOT be possible due to the way the mechanics work in which soloing you have no tools at your disposal to allow you to do so.
Difficulty (to me) is taking content that is designed for a certain number of players and doing it with that number and having a challenge with it... a FAIR challenge mind you.
A good example in which a game does this is Tera Online. BAM are made to be for multiple people, yet the way the game has designed it, skill can play an actual factor in this. You would need to know to time your attacks and act in just the right way and with virtually any class in game you can do it (with some variences in how efficiently of course). You can't consider restrictive or bad design choices the game has in place as a 'challenge'. Just cause I can play Super Mario Bros on my NES with a power glove and its a lot more challenging doesn't mean its a fair challenge, specially when I can use a controller and its a lot better.
Its just silly to try and throw stuff by design was made for so many people and claim doing for less then it was designed for as a sign of difficulty. If so you can practically say NO GAME is a cakewalk if your playing as it wasn't intended it was to be played in terms of numbers of people doing it.
think you are missing the point.. only reason I said in the OP for someone to show me a video of them soloing a catherdral event is because I have seen numerous post say anything in this game is so easy you could auto attack your way through anything.. it was more of a rhetorical request. Doing the cathedral events with the intended amount of players 10-15 is actually still a good challenge for most groups. Think one of the main things in this game not many(who played only near launch) have actually done much of the content with the "intended" number of people. At launch you could hardly find a event anywhere without an extreme over saturation of people. In turn everything was dead easy as the events don't scale infinitely. Now again i'm not trying to claim this game is hard it's not a non stop frustratingly hard experience like dark souls is(to me at least) but there is plenty of challenging content when done with the "intended" amount of people when compared to the other MMOs of the past several years. I will also admit a lot has to do with learning to adapt to a non-trinity based game. Much like the trinity games though once you know the dungeon/content inside and out it becomes a breeze but this goes for any MMO i have played
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg