How to fix the Holy Trinity or at least make it work for all.

azzamasin · March 2013

While I have no allusions as to how I would replace the Holy Trinity when it comes to MMO's I do have a a very simple yet elegant fix to make it work better for all involved.

Not counting the issues with a trinity based system the main problem I have is the complete and total lack of necessary roles required to make a group work. i.e. Heals/Tank/DPS. I think its safe to assume the majority of players want to play the DPS role and since this leaves a vacuum for the heals and tank roles we are often left with DPS'ers having to wait an inordinate amount of time to get groups or to actually wanted in groups. This is evident in almost every MMO that offers a Dungeon Finder or LFG system. The tanks and heals are always wanted and get relatively quick queues while the DPS spend vast amounts of time idle and waiting to play. This is my main issue with the Trinity since I have never nor will I ever play anything other then a DPS and trying to force gamers to dp something they don't like is a surefire way to lower your population.

heres a tip for MMO developers: Who's bright idea was it to have 5 party systems? If you want to fix the trinity while keeping it in place, you MUST raise the group size. My ideal size is 9 but anything higher then 6 mnay work but you need some good metrics to see. If you open up the group size to say between 7-9 while keeping the 1 tank, 1 healer approach you open up 3-4 more slots to fill with the vastly inflated amounts of DPS'ers. Keep the encounters tuned to only needing 1 tank and 1 healer and opening up more DPS slots and at least in theory the players shouls see more rounded queue times.

There you go, fixed!

Tyvolus4 · March 2013

Stop trying to fix what isn't broke !!

Lovely_Laly · March 2013

well, I saw different system with GW1 (we got no real tanks and healers were NPC (hero) most of the time. Plus many people picked monk as 2nd profession so could offheal self and others.
I think it was good idea as healing is boring as role for most of us + when something fail most of the time people blame healer.

at Forsaken World you have no need for real tanks again (you have protector class but they are not request for most of parties), and game has 2 healers system with 6 ppl group: main healer and support.

at Runes of Magic with dual prof system many got healer 2nd skills and could help others.

I don't think we really need tank, which can, IMO, be replaced by 2 heavy metal DPS, warrior and such class.

As for healer I would rather prefer to get healer NPC and dual skill system or just offheal skills, than try to find a good healer.

azzamasin · March 2013

Originally posted by Tyvolus4
Stop trying to fix what isn't broke !!

Only a tank, healer or someone with dedicated friends/guildmates would say such a thing. But I got news for you bub, not everyone plays those 2 roles and not everyone is as lucky to have dedicated friends or guildies to join you in groups at the drop of a hat. It might shock you but alot people's only choice in the matter is to PUG and as such playing a DPS in that scenario flat out sucks. So stop trying to keep a broken system broken.

azzamasin · March 2013

Originally posted by Lovely_Laly
well, I saw different system with GW1 (we got no real tanks and healers were NPC (hero) most of the time. Plus many people picked monk as 2nd profession so could offheal self and others.
I think it was good idea as healing is boring as role for most of us + when something fail most of the time people blame healer.

at Forsaken World you have no need for real tanks again (you have protector class but they are not request for most of parties), and game has 2 healers system with 6 ppl group: main healer and support.

at Runes of Magic with dual prof system many got healer 2nd skills and could help others.

I don't think we really need tank, which can, IMO, be replaced by 2 heavy metal DPS, warrior and such class.

As for healer I would rather prefer to get healer NPC and dual skill system or just offheal skills, than try to find a good healer.

Then that isn't a true trinity system as its the same thing GW2 does. I don't mind it but it would appear alot of people do not like the fact there is no dedicated roles.

KaosProphet · March 2013

Originally posted by azzamasin
While I have no allusions as to how I would replace the Holy Trinity when it comes to MMO's I do have a a very simple yet elegant fix to make it work better for all involved.

Not counting the issues with a trinity based system the main problem I have is the complete and total lack of necessary roles required to make a group work. i.e. Heals/Tank/DPS. I think its safe to assume the majority of players want to play the DPS role and since this leaves a vacuum for the heals and tank roles we are often left with DPS'ers having to wait an inordinate amount of time to get groups or to actually wanted in groups. This is evident in almost every MMO that offers a Dungeon Finder or LFG system. The tanks and heals are always wanted and get relatively quick queues while the DPS spend vast amounts of time idle and waiting to play. This is my main issue with the Trinity since I have never nor will I ever play anything other then a DPS and trying to force gamers to dp something they don't like is a surefire way to lower your population.

heres a tip for MMO developers: Who's bright idea was it to have 5 party systems? If you want to fix the trinity while keeping it in place, you MUST raise the group size. My ideal size is 9 but anything higher then 6 mnay work but you need some good metrics to see. If you open up the group size to say between 7-9 while keeping the 1 tank, 1 healer approach you open up 3-4 more slots to fill with the vastly inflated amounts of DPS'ers. Keep the encounters tuned to only needing 1 tank and 1 healer and opening up more DPS slots and at least in theory the players shouls see more rounded queue times.

There you go, fixed!

"Your car is fixed."

"Great, no more oil leaks."

"Oh, we didn't touch the oil, we just inflated the tires. YW."

Lovely_Laly · March 2013

I mean why not give up this system once for all and find something else to replace 3 roles?

H0urg1ass · March 2013

I've said this before and I'll say it again. There's nothing wrong with the trinity system. There doesn't need to be this massive revolution in gameplay that some people think there does.

What there needs to be is more options. There need to be some games that are trinity based and some that aren't. The problem isn't the trinity, cause when it works, it works very well. What there needs to be are some options for people who don't gravitate towards that playstyle.

My opinion is that since we've based most of the trinity games off of the D&D system of doing things, we need to use the same method for games that aren't trinity; namely looking at other pen and paper systems that have worked without a trinity system for years.

GURPS for example is one of the best pen and paper, skill based instead of trinity based, systems that is out there. Game developers don't need to reinvent the wheel, they just need to go back to the roots of RPG's and find other systems that also work, that aren't based off of D&D.

MMOExposed · March 2013

http://www.mmorpgguys.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5160056#5160056

ThomasN7 · March 2013

Originally posted by Tyvolus4
Stop trying to fix what isn't broke !!

Totally agree. It is far from broken. Working as intended!

NaMeNaMe · March 2013

It's not broken.

/end thread

Kinchyle · March 2013

Originally posted by NaMeNaMe
It's not broken.

/end thread

Not only is it not broken...it's not needed. To me, it's the training wheel on the MMO bicycle. Let us give you a cookie cutter set of classes so you don't have to think of how to make your chacter worth anything.

Quizzical · March 2013

Originally posted by azzamasin
heres a tip for MMO developers: Who's bright idea was it to have 5 party systems? If you want to fix the trinity while keeping it in place, you MUST raise the group size. My ideal size is 9 but anything higher then 6 mnay work but you need some good metrics to see. If you open up the group size to say between 7-9 while keeping the 1 tank, 1 healer approach you open up 3-4 more slots to fill with the vastly inflated amounts of DPS'ers. Keep the encounters tuned to only needing 1 tank and 1 healer and opening up more DPS slots and at least in theory the players shouls see more rounded queue times.

What makes you think that a group of nine wouldn't expect two tanks and two healers? Doubling a group's heailng capability in exchange for losing only 10% or so of its damage would usually make a group much stronger.

azzamasin · March 2013

Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by azzamasin
heres a tip for MMO developers: Who's bright idea was it to have 5 party systems? If you want to fix the trinity while keeping it in place, you MUST raise the group size. My ideal size is 9 but anything higher then 6 mnay work but you need some good metrics to see. If you open up the group size to say between 7-9 while keeping the 1 tank, 1 healer approach you open up 3-4 more slots to fill with the vastly inflated amounts of DPS'ers. Keep the encounters tuned to only needing 1 tank and 1 healer and opening up more DPS slots and at least in theory the players shouls see more rounded queue times.

What makes you think that a group of nine wouldn't expect two tanks and two healers? Doubling a group's heailng capability in exchange for losing only 10% or so of its damage would usually make a group much stronger.

Easy as adding a trigger to the LFG structure.

Whats not to stop a game like WoW from having 2 tanks and 2 heals and 1 dps for each dungeon run? Becasue its not needed and it hurts the group compostion and the LFG queue doesnt palce 2 tanks or 2 heals in the same 5 man group. Come on dont be so oblivious. Code it and they will come.

azzamasin · March 2013

Originally posted by MMOExposed
http://www.mmorpgguys.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5160056#5160056

Agreed MMOexposed, and I normally don't agree with anything you ever post lol.

The main reason why people hate the trinity is because there is a shortage of necessary roles to be fullfilled, up the group count and fill those roles with more popular roles and voila all players are happier.

azzamasin · March 2013

Originally posted by Lovely_Laly
I mean why not give up this system once for all and find something else to replace 3 roles?

I've pondered for years on how best to do this but I can't come up with a plausible alternative so I dare you to try and don't say GW2 because even though Ilove the game, the grouping leaves much to be desired. Not adding a LFG tool was a huge msitake on Anet's part and it is the sole reason why I quit TSW and will msot likely quit GW2 once Neverwinter releases.

Aren_D · March 2013

As people already said trinity is not broken. Problem is dungeons / raids systems. All dungeon/raid content should scale to amount of people in the party/raid participating. So say 3-8 people grouped considered a party and 11-40+ raid. This way you don't have to worry about grouping if you say have 6 close friends you play with or small guild of 12-18 people. At same time large guilds less depended on raw numbers in raids, creates more flexibility and more raid composition options.

drebian · March 2013

My suggestion is to offer more diverse classes.

Meaning, stop having classes that are solely tank/dps/heals. A few games have tried this (Vanguard Saga of Heroes is the first to come to mind). To list off a few of their hybrid classes:

Dread Knight (Tank/DPS)

Paladin (Tank/Off-heals)

Shaman (Heals/DPS)

Monk (DPS/Off-tank)

Disciple (DPS/Off-heals/Off-tank)

I think that they had the right idea, but implemented it poorly (not even going to discuss the horrid launch)...

With hybrid classes (not GW2 style) it would allow those people to play multiple roles as they felt like. While I personally like tanking in a lot of MMO's, I occasionally get fed up with it and just want to dps, which most MMO's don't support...

Just a thought. Feel free to rip it to shreds like this community does with every idea...

KaosProphet · March 2013

Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by Lovely_Laly
I mean why not give up this system once for all and find something else to replace 3 roles?

I've pondered for years on how best to do this but I can't come up with a plausible alternative so I dare you to try and don't say GW2 because even though Ilove the game, the grouping leaves much to be desired. Not adding a LFG tool was a huge msitake on Anet's part and it is the sole reason why I quit TSW and will msot likely quit GW2 once Neverwinter releases.

I know you just said "don't say GW2," but I do honestly think it just needs a bit of refinement; a little tweaking to make synergies and coordinations more worthwhile. Still, I'll set it aside for now anyway. Won't mention UO either, as it's the classic "tankmage does everything" scenario.

If you go out of fantasy settings, there's also Eve. I mean yeah, you can *technically* cram some concept of a trinity into it if you try hard enough, but it's both an obvious cram-job and it's not exactly the "holy trinity." If the idea could be adapted into a fantasy setting, I'd be all over it.

TSW, I haven't tried yet so no comment.

Quizzical · March 2013

Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by azzamasin
heres a tip for MMO developers: Who's bright idea was it to have 5 party systems? If you want to fix the trinity while keeping it in place, you MUST raise the group size. My ideal size is 9 but anything higher then 6 mnay work but you need some good metrics to see. If you open up the group size to say between 7-9 while keeping the 1 tank, 1 healer approach you open up 3-4 more slots to fill with the vastly inflated amounts of DPS'ers. Keep the encounters tuned to only needing 1 tank and 1 healer and opening up more DPS slots and at least in theory the players shouls see more rounded queue times.

What makes you think that a group of nine wouldn't expect two tanks and two healers? Doubling a group's heailng capability in exchange for losing only 10% or so of its damage would usually make a group much stronger.

Easy as adding a trigger to the LFG structure.

Whats not to stop a game like WoW from having 2 tanks and 2 heals and 1 dps for each dungeon run? Becasue its not needed and it hurts the group compostion and the LFG queue doesnt palce 2 tanks or 2 heals in the same 5 man group. Come on dont be so oblivious. Code it and they will come.

In other words, by making it so that the automated matchmaking system will never create useful groups? That would just mean that no one uses the automated matchmaking system--like how it was in WoW when the automated groups released.

How do you code a game to make it so that 7 damage dealers and 1 healer is just as good as 6 damage dealers and 2 healers? It may be possible, but you'd have to move far away from standard conventions. Making all healers in a group share the same mana pool rather than each having their own might do it, but that's rather artificial.

tupodawg999 · March 2013

"I think its safe to assume the majority of players want to play the DPS role and since this leaves a vacuum for the heals and tank roles we are often left with DPS'ers having to wait an inordinate amount of time to get groups or to actually wanted in groups. This is evident in almost every MMO that offers a Dungeon Finder or LFG system. The tanks and heals are always wanted and get relatively quick queues while the DPS spend vast amounts of time idle and waiting to play."

In games which are are mostly solo levelling then classes which suck at solo levelling are going to be unpopular and so if those classes are needed in the group part of the game then there will be /LFG problems.

Increasing the group size while still only requiring 1 tank and 1 healer would be a simple solution in theory if you could tweak the content difficulty easily also. Otherwise in a mostly soloing game you simply need to make the group-necessary classes more fun to solo.

Axehilt · March 2013

Yeah bumping up the group size (with an assumed 1 tank + 1 healer) is certainly one way to make queues a bit more rapid across the board.

Could probably even dynamically increase/lower group size based on role rarity, actually, so queue times are always optimized. The dynamic group size would, of course, be kept in check by dynamic dungeon difficulty, just like City of Heroes (CoX sometimes feels like it has 80% of the great ideas the genre has come up with.)

BahamutKaiser · March 2013

I already solved this subject in the adjacent thread so I'm just going to quote it here. Basically the problem with the Holy Trinity and the lack of value for the variety of DPS classes players perfer is that there is even a seperation between damage oriented classes and necessary or useful defensive classes. By simply making every class functional in both capacities, yet in a different way as to remain unique, it ensures that you can make a party with any combination of classes, and inclusion of any variety helps ensure cooperative effectiveness.

The rest I'll just quote.

Originally posted by BahamutKaiser
I see a lot of mention of guild wars 2, but in all honesty, guild wars the original departed from the trinity, and showcased several types of damage mitigation for every class in the game. Their one big shortcoming was loading the majority of the team support on the healing class, even the alternate healing class was insufficient. But it certainly alleviated the use of taunt mechanics.

That's pretty much the solution in a nut shell, every class needs an effective offensive and defensive role, they do not need to be the same, they do not need to be dependant on teamwork either. Cooperation naturally increases effectiveness, even if no single or small group of mitigation techniques are essential. AoE damage can punish zerging so foes can not abuse numbers, traps can impede engagement against soft targets, healing can help recover damage taken, heavy attackers can lead the charge with defense effective enough to survive innitiation, certain classes can reduce and block damage to allies. And than there are still character manipulation techniques like taunting and fear which shouldn't come from the heavy armor.

The real problem is that taunting is given to the most optimum defensive unit so it can easily be abused, when common sense implies that it would be a magical effect just like fear. Even if a mage had to cast it on an allied defensive unit to effectively control aggression, it would more effectively divide essential roles in combat. Furthermore, restoration and damage reduction buffs are often heaped on to one class, the healer, when you can clearly and easily divide techniques which, reduce, intercept, and share damage, to another role to further divide the alternate supportive measures.

And now that I've done all but nearly spell out exactly how to rearrange role contributions to make all class types interchangeably supportive for group play while still retaining unique behaviors. I'll end with this one last big issue on the subject. Players who have been immersed in the MMO genre thus far are far more accepting and conditioned to the trinity due to exposure. They have been ok with it and come to appreciate the beneficial aspects generated with it. What they fail to realize is that the same or better grouping and cooperative gameplay can be done otherwise. Either because their already content, or because a broader more advanced form of cooperative gameplay isn't immediately appealing to them they just assume it is better. And they have a large sum of other satisfied or accepting participants to collaborate their approval.

That does not mean it is a better system, that is a community which has collected all those who were willing to accept and embrace that gameplay over several years. There has always been, and plenty be it, a population which does not like that gameplay, and wants something else, and its not remote, or small, they just arnt participating in the existing MMO space because games in the past have not been marketing to their interest.

Reliance on the "Aggression Control" based Tank lacks effective application to PvP combat, greatly limits tactical variety and diverse reaction in combat, dumbs down PvE content, and has become dated in the experience of even its most stalwart followers. It's time for MMOs to decisively evolve into a more diverse and interactive combat. Even in a slow, PvE application, diverse support options and freedom offer far more gameplay depth and intrigue. I sincerely hope the development community figures this out and broadens the horizon of MMO gaming before another generation of games is forfeit to the annals of repetitiveness.

Edit: this is the best I can do with my phone and this websites crazy interface...

Edit2: finally revised this at home.

Alders · March 2013

Bumping the group size is a great starter. I thought one of the most mind numbingly stupid things any company ever did was what TOR did with making the group size 4. Let's limit 2 dps per tank/healer! It's as if they had no idea how important player interaction is.

One of my favorite things to do was in FFXI, where a group of mages could go out and do content by time nuking/sleeping mobs. This required no tank and was amazing fun.

The problem always goes back to melee dps characters which require a tank or they can't do anything efficiently. Perhaps we need to look at more options for melee dps.

Kaleston · March 2013

Originally posted by azzamasin
heres a tip for MMO developers: Who's bright idea was it to have 5 party systems? If you want to fix the trinity while keeping it in place, you MUST raise the group size. My ideal size is 9 but anything higher then 6 mnay work but you need some good metrics to see. If you open up the group size to say between 7-9 while keeping the 1 tank, 1 healer approach you open up 3-4 more slots to fill with the vastly inflated amounts of DPS'ers. Keep the encounters tuned to only needing 1 tank and 1 healer and opening up more DPS slots and at least in theory the players shouls see more rounded queue times.

Problem is, with just one tank and just one healer, you are VERY limited in what your boss can do. If you also throw in bunch of DPS, you are even more limited. You can't do much AoE, because healer won't be able to heal dpsers. You can't put out big adds, because you've got no offtanks. And if your dps can offtank, your healer won't be able to keep up.

Maybe there would be a solution where your tank is soaking up damage, but this damage is fairly low, so healer can attend to the rest of group. Then again, what is that tank for there? Just throw in a bit more sturdy dpser... You could also create content, where you have to actively prevent yourself to be damaged and if you fail, your group fails. But this would be even more "It's your fault healer!" groups.

What's much worse problem though is a balance. Let's say you make ecnounter for 8 dps + tank + healer. If players screw you over and go in tank + 2 healers + 7 dpsers composition, they can totally trivialize your content.

BahamutKaiser · March 2013

Originally posted by Alders
Bumping the group size is a great starter. I thought one of the most mind numbingly stupid things any company ever did was what TOR did with making the group size 4. Let's limit 2 dps per tank/healer! It's as if they had no idea how important player interaction is.

One of my favorite things to do was in FFXI, where a group of mages could go out and do content by time nuking/sleeping mobs. This required no tank and was amazing fun.

The problem always goes back to melee dps characters which require a tank or they can't do anything efficiently. Perhaps we need to look at more options for melee dps.

Honestly I feel melee DPS has often been horribly designed in that they are assumed to have poor defense just because their doing heavy damage. You needn't look any further than good MOBA games to see how proper character design includes fair damage on the tank and defensive roles, while melee DPS usually has some sort of survival or manipulation advantage in order to contribute in comparison to ranged DPS which can get away with focusing obliterating damage and attempt to crush their foe before they are even approached.

Tank and Melee DPS should have always shared the same role. They tried to hard to over specialize the roles, when cooperation would have be sufficient even with far less specific roles.

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How to fix the Holy Trinity or at least make it work for all.

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