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Mark Jacobs and Company - Please do not REQUIRE monthly fees to play.

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Comments

  • TumblebutzTumblebutz Henderson, NVPosts: 322Member
    MJ, please ignore these posts and procede with your project.  The 99% who support your vision understand why you want a subscription based system.

    Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

    RED IS DEAD!

  • VirgoThreeVirgoThree Tarzana, CAPosts: 1,220Member

    Someone may have mentioned this already, but I'm thinking B2P or F2P for a niche product would be a sure fire way to go to an early grave. Both of those models require a continuous stream of fresh blood to make them sustainable. In order to do that you must cater your game to the mass market.

    Now from everything I've read they are trying to target a very particular niche. So those options should be off the table. P2P for a very loyal and devoted fan base would provide them with the sustainable revenue they need to support the game. If they fail to retain their niche fan base, then that is another problem and well we know how that goes for MMOs.

  • BowbowDAoCBowbowDAoC Granby, QCPosts: 470Member
    Originally posted by VirgoThree

    Someone may have mentioned this already, but I'm thinking B2P or F2P for a niche product would be a sure fire way to go to an early grave. Both of those models require a continuous stream of fresh blood to make them sustainable. In order to do that you must cater your game to the mass market.

    Now from everything I've read they are trying to target a very particular niche. So those options should be off the table. P2P for a very loyal and devoted fan base would provide them with the sustainable revenue they need to support the game. If they fail to retain their niche fan base, then that is another problem and well we know how that goes for MMOs.

    yup, and i think 98 % of people who spoke on this thread knows it, but sometimes its just fun to blast at something that was said that the same 98% totally disagree on :D

    image

    Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
    Thurka on WAR

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  • redcappredcapp brook, NYPosts: 722Member
    No.  Cash shops are crap. 
  • StilerStiler Athens, TNPosts: 599Member

    There seems to be so many misconceptions here.

     

    a Lot of old school mmo people see "F2p" or GW2's style buy once model  and think it means PAy to win, when it doesn't have to, they also think making it free to play means it will attract less mature people, and there's just NO BASIS for that whatsoever.

     

    I have met a TON of immature people throughout mmo's, from sub-based games, WoW especially, , etc. I have also met many mature people in free to play games, like League of Legends, Guild wars 2, etc. Having a SUB will have ZERO BEARING on the "mautrity" level of the players.

    There's a reaso that almost any big AAA mmo is going F2p these days. F2p games attract a larger userbase, it allows people to play the game without committing much to it like traditional mmo's, and it keeps a healthy userbase, even if some people aren't paying for the in-game costmetic items/server changes, etc.

    Having a sub model, though it worked in the past, turns away many new/potential customers thees days. When the average joe, who isn't a Die hard DAOC fan that played back in the day, he will look at it, compare it to other mmo's (which are mostly going f2p) and decide to buy it or not.

    WoW will probably be the last "big" sub based mmo, and even they hav ea free to play to lv 20 model.

  • shadeviceshadevice memphis, TNPosts: 68Member
    Troll thread wrapped in bacon and pie...well played.
  • TuktzTuktz Atlanta, GAPosts: 299Member

    Cracks me up when people think sub model is dying, cause it just ain't true.

     

    sure b2p and f2p is newer to mmos than sub, but that doesn't mean it's better.

     

    i was so used to subs for five years that I decide to try b2p and f2p for a few years, and went back to sub because I didn't like the direction cash shops etc.... We're going.

     

    if anything I think as more people are trying them, they're realizing why they like subs more in the first place lol

     

    i think they have their place in games where you need tons of players who don't have to know each other like in ps2' but not where strategy is super important like daoc and cu

    image
    MMO history - EVE GW2 SWTOR RIFT WAR COH/V EQ2 WOW DAOC
    Tuktz - http://www.heretic.shivtr.com/

  • DestaiDestai Detroit, MIPosts: 574Member
    Originally posted by Niix_Ozek

    He has already stated it will be subscription and doesn't care if he offends a few people.

    stop posting these ugh

    It doesn't matter if it offends people, it matters if it's financially viable. Let's take a look at how many successful games still use that business model.

  • Punk999Punk999 Baytown, TXPosts: 875Member Uncommon
    I am honestly surprised this game will have sub when the man behind it has such a bad rep now, tho a good one at first. Oh well i dont care either way pay or free whatever better just be good.

    "Negaholics are people who become addicted to negativity and self-doubt, they find fault in most things and never seem to be satisfied."
    ^MMORPG.com

  • sweetdigssweetdigs Washington, DCPosts: 196Member
    Originally posted by Stiler

    There seems to be so many misconceptions here.

     

    a Lot of old school mmo people see "F2p" or GW2's style buy once model  and think it means PAy to win, when it doesn't have to, they also think making it free to play means it will attract less mature people, and there's just NO BASIS for that whatsoever.

     

    I have met a TON of immature people throughout mmo's, from sub-based games, WoW especially, , etc. I have also met many mature people in free to play games, like League of Legends, Guild wars 2, etc. Having a SUB will have ZERO BEARING on the "mautrity" level of the players.

    There's a reaso that almost any big AAA mmo is going F2p these days. F2p games attract a larger userbase, it allows people to play the game without committing much to it like traditional mmo's, and it keeps a healthy userbase, even if some people aren't paying for the in-game costmetic items/server changes, etc.

    Having a sub model, though it worked in the past, turns away many new/potential customers thees days. When the average joe, who isn't a Die hard DAOC fan that played back in the day, he will look at it, compare it to other mmo's (which are mostly going f2p) and decide to buy it or not.

    WoW will probably be the last "big" sub based mmo, and even they hav ea free to play to lv 20 model.

    There are no misconceptions.  The OP was terrible from the start and it hasn't gotten better through age.

  • sweetdigssweetdigs Washington, DCPosts: 196Member
    Originally posted by Destai
    Originally posted by Niix_Ozek

    He has already stated it will be subscription and doesn't care if he offends a few people.

    stop posting these ugh

    It doesn't matter if it offends people, it matters if it's financially viable. Let's take a look at how many successful games still use that business model.

    How many "successful" MMOs do NOT use the subscription model?

    I don't consider the games that were subscription and turned to F2P as being successful.  It's not like SWTOR or EQ2's subscriptions or profitability got any better when they went F2P.  They were already in the tank.

  • TasarakTasarak redmond, WAPosts: 43Member Uncommon

    What matters most is the game is polished & Mark Jacobs sticks to his original vision/foundational principles.   As a veteran gamer, we can afford the monthly subscribtion no problem, which is the target audience.  While I can appreciate your pov,  this is clearly not the game to implement your suggestions, as they are counter-productive to the overall design plan.  There are literally 100's of the type of game you can choose from, this will not be one of them.

     

     

  • SoMuchMassSoMuchMass New York, NYPosts: 548Member

    B2P and F2P won't work with niche games because most players won't pay for anything.  By most I mean 95% of the players.  If a game has tons of players the model can work because even the 5% is a lot.  

    Regardless I have always been a fan of P2P.  I know CU will have it, I hope TESO has it.

  • StilerStiler Athens, TNPosts: 599Member
    Originally posted by Tuktz

    Cracks me up when people think sub model is dying, cause it just ain't true.

     

    sure b2p and f2p is newer to mmos than sub, but that doesn't mean it's better.

     

    i was so used to subs for five years that I decide to try b2p and f2p for a few years, and went back to sub because I didn't like the direction cash shops etc.... We're going.

     

    if anything I think as more people are trying them, they're realizing why they like subs more in the first place lol

     

    i think they have their place in games where you need tons of players who don't have to know each other like in ps2' but not where strategy is super important like daoc and cu

     

    F2p has been huge in the eastern market for a while, and it's really picked up steam in the Western market.

    You say the Sub system isn't dying? Then can you explain why almost any big mmo released in the past few years has moved toward that model, and why many newer ones are going that route?

    SW:TOR

    Aion

    Lotro

    Tera

    Age of Conan

    The Secret World

    EQ2

    Rift

    etc.

     

    SOE itself is moving many of their games to f2p as a comapny, the upcoming dragon mmo from SOE is f2p,  the next Everquest game is likely going the free to play route,  Neverwinter Nights is free to play, and many more.

    From a buisiness standpoint f2p is where the market is shifting. The old monthly based sub system was fine back in ithose days, but the market is saturated with mmo's (mostly wow style clones, which are getting old imo) but the f2p model has it's advantages, and microtransaction can work without being "pay to win" and more focused on cosmetic items, server changes, name changes, fluff titles and other unique things that don't impact gameplay at all.

     

     

  • Plastic-MetalPlastic-Metal Highland Heights, KYPosts: 405Member
    Originally posted by Stiler

     

    F2p has been huge in the eastern market for a while, and it's really picked up steam in the Western market.

    You say the Sub system isn't dying? Then can you explain why almost any big mmo released in the past few years has moved toward that model, and why many newer ones are going that route?

    SW:TOR

    Aion

    Lotro

    Tera

    Age of Conan

    The Secret World

    EQ2

    Rift

    etc.

     

    SOE itself is moving many of their games to f2p as a comapny, the upcoming dragon mmo from SOE is f2p,  the next Everquest game is likely going the free to play route,  Neverwinter Nights is free to play, and many more.

    From a buisiness standpoint f2p is where the market is shifting. The old monthly based sub system was fine back in ithose days, but the market is saturated with mmo's (mostly wow style clones, which are getting old imo) but the f2p model has it's advantages, and microtransaction can work without being "pay to win" and more focused on cosmetic items, server changes, name changes, fluff titles and other unique things that don't impact gameplay at all.

     

     

     

    The business is trying to shift to f2p because of customer requests (or rather, demand).  Do you think World of Warcraft will ever go full f2p?  Absolutely not.  Why?  Because they would go from 100% of its player base paying 14.99$ a month to a potential 5-20% only making micro purchases for fluff.  Do you understand how much of a reduction in revenue this would be for them?

    It's very common for one player to make a multitude of purchases a month that would go beyond the normal 14.99$ price that would indeed "cover" the cost for other players; however, what if it doesn't happen? The company relies on constant revenue flow, otherwise you run into cash flow issues.

    If the population of your game consistently declines over time, you can save the game by integrating into a f2p model.  If the company has had success with a f2p model and cash shop, then they sometimes continue in that direction. 

    Is it wrong? No.  It's the same as a business that has sporadic revenue income and offers an incredible sale on a product.  Will it increase business?  Absolutely.  But does it mean that the store down the road that has consistent revenue income will eventually go out of business?  No; each business is different and will do decisions based on the needs of the company and customers.

    I sincerely hope CU does not go f2p.  I'm not sure why this thread is still going since Mark has already said, on record, multiple times that there will not be a cash shop to support f2p, but potentially tiered subscription levels.

    My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

    image

  • MidHealerMidHealer StuttgartPosts: 15Member
    Originally posted by Slampig
    Originally posted by sweetdigs

    DISAGREE!!

    Make it a monthly subscription.  No cash house.  No pay to win.  No pay to level past level 20. 

    Just a flat monthly subscription so everybody is on equal footing.

     


    image

     

    Same here, sub-model only, no exceptions.

     

    If you do not want to pay monthly for this game then, well, ... don't.

    If you do not have $10-$15 od disposable income per month, then you have other, much more pressing real-life problems. By all means, please take care of those problems first, and do not worry about payment models of a MMO game.

     

    Birger, Galahad, Healer
    Midgard forever

  • StilerStiler Athens, TNPosts: 599Member
    Originally posted by Plastic-Metal
    Originally posted by Stiler

     

    F2p has been huge in the eastern market for a while, and it's really picked up steam in the Western market.

    You say the Sub system isn't dying? Then can you explain why almost any big mmo released in the past few years has moved toward that model, and why many newer ones are going that route?

    SW:TOR

    Aion

    Lotro

    Tera

    Age of Conan

    The Secret World

    EQ2

    Rift

    etc.

     

    SOE itself is moving many of their games to f2p as a comapny, the upcoming dragon mmo from SOE is f2p,  the next Everquest game is likely going the free to play route,  Neverwinter Nights is free to play, and many more.

    From a buisiness standpoint f2p is where the market is shifting. The old monthly based sub system was fine back in ithose days, but the market is saturated with mmo's (mostly wow style clones, which are getting old imo) but the f2p model has it's advantages, and microtransaction can work without being "pay to win" and more focused on cosmetic items, server changes, name changes, fluff titles and other unique things that don't impact gameplay at all.

     

     

     

    The business is trying to shift to f2p because of customer requests (or rather, demand).  Do you think World of Warcraft will ever go full f2p?  Absolutely not.  Why?  Because they would go from 100% of its player base paying 14.99$ a month to a potential 5-20% only making micro purchases for fluff.  Do you understand how much of a reduction in revenue this would be for them?

    It's very common for one player to make a multitude of purchases a month that would go beyond the normal 14.99$ price that would indeed "cover" the cost for other players; however, what if it doesn't happen? The company relies on constant revenue flow, otherwise you run into cash flow issues.

    If the population of your game consistently declines over time, you can save the game by integrating into a f2p model.  If the company has had success with a f2p model and cash shop, then they sometimes continue in that direction. 

    Is it wrong? No.  It's the same as a business that has sporadic revenue income and offers an incredible sale on a product.  Will it increase business?  Absolutely.  But does it mean that the store down the road that has consistent revenue income will eventually go out of business?  No; each business is different and will do decisions based on the needs of the company and customers.

    I sincerely hope CU does not go f2p.  I'm not sure why this thread is still going since Mark has already said, on record, multiple times that there will not be a cash shop to support f2p, but potentially tiered subscription levels.

    WoW is F2p to level 20 if you weren't aware, then requires you to purchase it/sub.

    Also you can bet your britches if WoW's sub number drops over the years to lower and lower, they will shift toward a more f2p model then that.

    WoW is also the "exception" in the mmo market, NOT the normal or average mmo, by far. So many companies have went under trying to chase it's success.

    I know CU will be tiered sub, and how he wants a sub model and doesn't mind a lower niche market, but from a business stand point with all the other mmo's ont he market, having a subscription is one of the negatives that people will attribute to the game vs Guidl wars 2, or other newer f2p games, and that can affect sales and things for the game.

    Personally for me, when it comes to a PVP/RVR game, having a big playerbase is one of the most important things, if there's hardly anyone to fight it loses it's fun/luster. f2p games can help this a lot, as Planetside 2 shows, there was an interview a while back where one of the devs talked about how many people don't "pay" anything, but they add to the game for the people that do and vice versa, as without the huge number of free non-paying players it wouldn't be as fun/interesting for those that do pay money here and there.

  • Plastic-MetalPlastic-Metal Highland Heights, KYPosts: 405Member
    Originally posted by Stiler

     

    WoW is F2p to level 20 if you weren't aware, then requires you to purchase it/sub.

    Also you can bet your britches if WoW's sub number drops over the years to lower and lower, they will shift toward a more f2p model then that.

    WoW is also the "exception" in the mmo market, NOT the normal or average mmo, by far. So many companies have went under trying to chase it's success.

    I know CU will be tiered sub, and how he wants a sub model and doesn't mind a lower niche market, but from a business stand point with all the other mmo's ont he market, having a subscription is one of the negatives that people will attribute to the game vs Guidl wars 2, or other newer f2p games, and that can affect sales and things for the game.

    Personally for me, when it comes to a PVP/RVR game, having a big playerbase is one of the most important things, if there's hardly anyone to fight it loses it's fun/luster. f2p games can help this a lot, as Planetside 2 shows, there was an interview a while back where one of the devs talked about how many people don't "pay" anything, but they add to the game for the people that do and vice versa, as without the huge number of free non-paying players it wouldn't be as fun/interesting for those that do pay money here and there.

     

    That's true.  I mentioned earlier in this thread that  I wouldn't mind a f2p model as long as those players had limited access to content within the game.  Good post.

    My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

    image

  • CaldrinCaldrin CwmbranPosts: 4,533Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sketchit

    Mark Jacobs and City State Entertainment:

    Please rethink the archaic idea of requiring people to pay a monthly fee to log on and play the game.

    *snip*

    PLEASE DO NOT LISTEN TO THIS.

     

     

  • Marcus-Marcus- Posts: 970Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Stiler
     

    WoW is F2p to level 20 if you weren't aware, then requires you to purchase it/sub.

    Also you can bet your britches if WoW's sub number drops over the years to lower and lower, they will shift toward a more f2p model then that.

    WoW is also the "exception" in the mmo market, NOT the normal or average mmo, by far. So many companies have went under trying to chase it's success.

    I know CU will be tiered sub, and how he wants a sub model and doesn't mind a lower niche market, but from a business stand point with all the other mmo's ont he market, having a subscription is one of the negatives that people will attribute to the game vs Guidl wars 2, or other newer f2p games, and that can affect sales and things for the game.

    Personally for me, when it comes to a PVP/RVR game, having a big playerbase is one of the most important things, if there's hardly anyone to fight it loses it's fun/luster. f2p games can help this a lot, as Planetside 2 shows, there was an interview a while back where one of the devs talked about how many people don't "pay" anything, but they add to the game for the people that do and vice versa, as without the huge number of free non-paying players it wouldn't be as fun/interesting for those that do pay money here and there.

     

    Or you can put the pressure on the developer to make a better game than GW2, PS2 or the newer f2p games.

     

    Put the onus on them to make a game people are willing to pay for, as opposed to just mulling around, contributing nothing more than being" f2p bodies" for your fun and to keep your game luster going.

     

      I hate that folks give these developers a reason to make games people don't need to pay for (other than a shop, but thats a whole nother topic), or (in my opinion) poor quality  games. Give us (one) high quality game, please. There still a lot of folks out there willing to shell out a monthly fee, the question is, can developers make a game worth that anymore? Is it really that hard?  It doesn't need 3 million users, i hope (?). We can't get any better than what we have gotten lately, with all the ridiculous amounts of money these guys pour into development? Yeeesh.

     

     If they can't, they won't get my money, and  its ok, I'm betting someone will eventually.  I can wait.

     

  • xAPOCxxAPOCx Vineland, NJPosts: 869Member

    how many people in this thread are for f2p? 2? 3? lol.

    p2p all the way!

    image

  • JayarisJayaris InvercargillPosts: 308Member

    When I read this thread all I thought was "Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuck you."

    I still think that. If you don't want to support a subscription based game don't put in for the Kickstarter. It's really that simple.

    There are plenty of other games for  you to play. 

    Hi

  • AiscenceAiscence TrPosts: 6Member
    Originally posted by Stiler

    F2p has been huge in the eastern market for a while, and it's really picked up steam in the Western market.

    You say the Sub system isn't dying? Then can you explain why almost any big mmo released in the past few years has moved toward that model, and why many newer ones are going that route?

    SW:TOR

    Aion

    Lotro

    Tera

    Age of Conan

    The Secret World

    EQ2

    Rift

    etc.

    Simple: For most of them: they were bad, people who were playing these , got a "déja-vu" from wow, but in an inferior way (content lacking). EQ2 have change because he was getting old and rift ... oh he is not Free to play.

  • JimmacJimmac TXPosts: 1,667Member Uncommon
    I'd prefer pay to play of some sorts, with different tiered subs...$15 for the months I play a lot and $5 for the months I don't play much but so that i can still stay connected.
  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,503Member Uncommon

    This reminds me of a poll that was taken by one of the community handlers for SWTOR about a year or so before release. The poll asked about what kind of payment model people would prefer. The answers were overwhelmingly in favor of a pay to play system.

     

    I have no clue if they actually took those types of public opinion polls into account when they decided to go with a pay to play model, but they did end up going pay to play.... only to end up going F2P about a year or so later. Perhaps they should have gone with what would have worked instead of what public internet opinion preferred.

     

    In my opinion, he needs to go with whatever payment model is going to work to keep the game afloat with the reasonable amount of updates and additions that MMORPG players are so accustomed to. One thing to consider is that the game itself isn't going to be very expensive so recouping costs isn't going to be as difficult. This is all assuming that once he gets the 2 million or so from Kickstarter he doesn't go to a publisher and use the success of kickstarter to ask for more money...

     

    But he does explain why this won't happen somewhat. He needs so little money to make this game because he is apparently building the game for a niche market (his own words) so his expectations for long term revenue may not be that high. He isn't bound to creating huge revenues because he doesn't have a publisher (or the players from a mass market - whoever they might be) to answer to. It's difficult for me to buy that. What if his audience become so niche that he can't support the game properly and has to let developers go? Is he willing to modify his stance on payment models?

     

    It's likely that the answer to that question is a yes. We've heard many, many developers in the past promise a P2P model only to realize it wasn't working for the game and then flip the switch. They get the opening revenue and then open the floodgates. But can you blame them? If shown two options, one where you close down the servers and one where you change to a different payment model, which would you choose?

     

     

     

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