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Mark Jacobs and Company - Please do not REQUIRE monthly fees to play.

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Comments

  • WolvanWolvan New Lenox, ILPosts: 49Member

    To the OP:

     

    Wrong.  If this game ended up being free to play, I wouldn't support the KS or game.  The P2W/F2P model IMO has helped destroy the MMO market which is why we have tons of crappy games to play and very few good.  Heck, I just resubscribed to RIFT to play to keep me entertained for a while.

     

    Subscription based is the most level, fair and open access.  If you can't afford a few bucks a month (which if you play a decent amount is PENNIES an hour entertainment) you should be getting a second job, or selling your computer for food money or get rid of your internet, because you obviously aren't trying very hard at life.  (Eh, I'm harsh)

     

    Hell, I would be FINE dropping $25 bucks a month on a premium server just to keep the F2P crowd away.  Have to do ID check to verify 25+...sure I could come up with some other requirements.

     

     

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  • meddyckmeddyck Athens, GAPosts: 1,140Member Uncommon

    This is easily solved by donating enough to kickstarter to earn the lifetime subscription reward (assuming that is one of the tiers which I do assume). As a bonus, you help ensure the game actually gets made at all.

    More seriously, CU starts out as a niche game which means retaining players is vitally important. You don't want a lot of people leaving after the first month because they don't want to pay a monthly sub when some overpowered class hasn't been nerfed (or their favorite class HAS been nerfed), their server has imbalanced realm populations, etc. Making the game B2P would be ideal. You would still have the box price to require players to make an investment in the game, but you wouldn't force players to decide from month to month whether to keep subscribing. You could have a cash shop with cosmetic gear skins, extra character slots, more vault slots for crafters, and from time to time there could be xpacs with additional races and classes.

    Camelot Unchained Backer
    DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  • EhllfhireEhllfhire Sacramento, CAPosts: 597Member
    Originally posted by Sketchit

    Mark Jacobs and City State Entertainment:

    Please rethink the archaic idea of requiring people to pay a monthly fee to log on and play the game. We are living in a time where money is tight all around, and there are a lot of gamers that are fed up with the idea of paying for the Box Price of a game, and on top of that, paying a monthly fee every single month in order to login and play a game.

    I will take World of Warcraft’s model as an example. I had bought most of the game’s expansions, and paid the monthly fee for the game for several years. I had invested heavily into a character, and spent a lot of time revolved around the game. The sad part is that at the end of the month, you had as much right to play as somebody else who is just starting to play the game. It did not matter if you invested hundreds of dollars into the game – as soon as you stopped forking over cash, you lost ALL access to what you so heavily invested in already.

    Many MMORPGers use MMORPGs as a hobby. I know video games are indeed a large hobby of mine. A hobby is something you invest in. Could you imagine any other hobby where if you stopping shelling out money, somebody swooped down and took away everything you had put into it already? I cannot. I do recognize that a business needs money in order to continuously provide a service. This is not a charity, and I understand that completely. Hopefully, however, the developers and other players can understand my reasoning as well. Business models that are not flexible are a thing of the past. I’m not crying for CSE to make Camelot Unchained into a F2P game, but there should be some common ground here.

    I have a possible solution to this problem.

    1. A box price with no subscription fee.
    2.  In-Game shop that sells cosmetic items only. Look how successful League of Legends is – and they have no box price whatsoever.
    3. If you want to change to a different realm/server more than once, perhaps also charge as well.
    4. Offer a conversion of gold to In-Game shop currency much like GW2 [but do not do the reverse, as this enables a pay-to-win environment] does to continue to combat Gold Sellers. This allows people to buy stuff from the store without sinking in real-life cash
    5. Any new races that becomes available after the game releases into the in-game shop as well.
    6. Optional in game subscriptions for reduced price for in-game shop currency as well as veteran rewards for long-term subscribers – special cosmetic housing items, ect.

    I know people may look at this list and go, “Ewww, I HATE in-game shops. PERIOD!” But, please, look at what you’re gaining. You get consistent access to a game you’ve bought and paid for. You’re still on a equal playing field with everyone else. Gone would be the days of losing that character you played for so long, all because you’re done sinking money you’ve paid for a game ten times over. Please take my suggestions into consideration as you continue planning out the foundation of CU.

    If its not going to be sub based, it will end up being P2W. stop trying to ruin games because you are on welfare and cant afford the 15 dollars a month

    Any graphical, audio, or gameplay restrictions not seen in other mmos but found in FFXIV can be blamed on one thing.
    PS3

  • KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by morfidon
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Originally posted by morfidon
    Originally posted by Kuppa

    I don't like monthly fees and it's many horrible arguments, like:

    1. "anyone has that amount of money": That amount of money is clearly not in everyones hand, if you have it great. Give thanks for the fact that you have a well paying job or have parents who give you money or maybe won the lotto, I don't know or care the point is not everyone is on the same boat so please don't boast how "cheap" it is. It just makes you look ignorant.
    2. "kids will come!": The kids that will come are the spoiled brats that can afford a sub.
    3. "It's cheaper than a movie!": Yes, it's cheaper than a movie, an amusement park, a concert, ect... Where this falls flat on its ass is that compared to other games it's more expensive. It's easy to know there is something wrong when folks try to justify the price of something when they have to start compairing it to other things aside from it's direct competition.
    4. "they need that montly income": In this market with so many games that cost much less they will not get that monthly income if players feel like they could be getting more for their money elsewhere. They have to lower the price of admission in order to even get people in the door and after they are in the door they have to blow them away to justify a sub. So it actually hurts to charge a sub even though it sounds good in theory(in this market).

     

    1. If someone don't have 15 free dollars per month he shouldn't play games. So not everyone have 1000$ to go for Disney, let everyone go there for free. Wtf ?

    2. It's not always like that. I'm almost sure it's different. Most of people i know who played free games like for example tibia had some poblems with law in real life. At least it's from experience.  (it doesn't apply to all of them of course)

    3. So go to that other games. We don't want here ppl who want everything for free. Who thinks that everything should be theirs because they exist in world. Because you were born doesn't give you rights to somebody work for free.

    4. As I mentioned above. Go somewhere else. They will get more in PvP game from subscription it will be stable and they will focus on game not on thing like items for people who pay.

    1. Missed the point completely. Im not saying that if you don't have the money then let them play it anyways. It's the idea that if I have that money everyone else SHOULD also have it. Don't think 15/mo is within reach of everyone.

     

    2. ???

     

    3 & 4. I'm not complaining about the game, Im debating the business model itself. Don't take it personal with the game, although if you believe a list of ideas on a piece of paper stands to deserve anything then so be it but that's a different problem.

     

    1. I didn't also say that 15$ is in reach of everyone. You don't have money. You don't play. You don't work you, you have other real life problems you don't have money and what's more you shouldn't spend your time on games. It's so simple. 15$ might be a lot for some people. But games like that are not for them. They have thousands of free to play games. There they can go.

    3&4 What is that problem ? If the ideas on a piece of paper deserve my cash it's good. It's not the problem at all.

    1. Then you agree with me on saying that a statement like "anyone has that amount of money" is right, why complaint in the first place?

     

    3&4. That problem is aside from the original post, it's based on the game nothing to do with business models. But, like I said it's a topic for a nother time.

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  • KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Searias
    Originally posted by Plastic-Metal
    Originally posted by Kuppa

     

    Again guys, NOT EVERYONE has it as good as you do. Please stop coming here and saying that is money everyone should have, it really makes you sound arrogant and ignorant.

     

    I'm going to apologize before you read the rest, as I don't mean to sound like a jerk... but...

    Water, Food, and Shelter are necessities.  Going to Disney Land is a luxury.  Playing an MMO that charges $15, believe it or not, is also a luxury.  I'm sorry, but even when I worked a minimum paying job and did freelance work on the side so I could afford a decent place to live..  I was able to afford a monthly subscription to a video game.

    If you can't find $15 in your budget, you're mismanaging your money.. or you need to find a different job.  If it is so tight that you can't find the money, then CU probably isn't the game for you.  There's free alternatives out there.

    He probably has the money to spend on it, but probably wants someone else to play for his game time instead. That's where a lot of these f2p players come from, they just believe that there is always going to be some guy out there that would spend more money in a cash shop and allow them to play for free. They just don't want to pay money to have fun :P

    Can't even count how many times the point has been missed at this point....

    Point 1 in my list was about expecting everyone to have the same amount of money as you. Nothing about who pays for the game and who doesnt.

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  • morfidonmorfidon BochniaPosts: 245Member
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Originally posted by morfidon
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Originally posted by morfidon
    Originally posted by Kuppa

    I don't like monthly fees and it's many horrible arguments, like:

    1. "anyone has that amount of money": That amount of money is clearly not in everyones hand, if you have it great. Give thanks for the fact that you have a well paying job or have parents who give you money or maybe won the lotto, I don't know or care the point is not everyone is on the same boat so please don't boast how "cheap" it is. It just makes you look ignorant.
    2. "kids will come!": The kids that will come are the spoiled brats that can afford a sub.
    3. "It's cheaper than a movie!": Yes, it's cheaper than a movie, an amusement park, a concert, ect... Where this falls flat on its ass is that compared to other games it's more expensive. It's easy to know there is something wrong when folks try to justify the price of something when they have to start compairing it to other things aside from it's direct competition.
    4. "they need that montly income": In this market with so many games that cost much less they will not get that monthly income if players feel like they could be getting more for their money elsewhere. They have to lower the price of admission in order to even get people in the door and after they are in the door they have to blow them away to justify a sub. So it actually hurts to charge a sub even though it sounds good in theory(in this market).

     

    1. If someone don't have 15 free dollars per month he shouldn't play games. So not everyone have 1000$ to go for Disney, let everyone go there for free. Wtf ?

    2. It's not always like that. I'm almost sure it's different. Most of people i know who played free games like for example tibia had some poblems with law in real life. At least it's from experience.  (it doesn't apply to all of them of course)

    3. So go to that other games. We don't want here ppl who want everything for free. Who thinks that everything should be theirs because they exist in world. Because you were born doesn't give you rights to somebody work for free.

    4. As I mentioned above. Go somewhere else. They will get more in PvP game from subscription it will be stable and they will focus on game not on thing like items for people who pay.

    1. Missed the point completely. Im not saying that if you don't have the money then let them play it anyways. It's the idea that if I have that money everyone else SHOULD also have it. Don't think 15/mo is within reach of everyone.

     

    2. ???

     

    3 & 4. I'm not complaining about the game, Im debating the business model itself. Don't take it personal with the game, although if you believe a list of ideas on a piece of paper stands to deserve anything then so be it but that's a different problem.

     

    1. I didn't also say that 15$ is in reach of everyone. You don't have money. You don't play. You don't work you, you have other real life problems you don't have money and what's more you shouldn't spend your time on games. It's so simple. 15$ might be a lot for some people. But games like that are not for them. They have thousands of free to play games. There they can go.

    3&4 What is that problem ? If the ideas on a piece of paper deserve my cash it's good. It's not the problem at all.

    1. Then you agree with me on saying that a statement like "anyone has that amount of money" is right, why complaint in the first place?

     

    3&4. That problem is aside from the original post, it's based on the game nothing to do with business models. But, like I said it's a topic for a nother time.

    1. Of course i agree but it doesn't give people who don't have that money rights to play the game like this. If they want to play game like this they have to start doing something new in life that will allow them to enter a new lvl of life, which obviously nowadays isn't that high for majority of people.

  • SpeelySpeely Seattle, WAPosts: 861Member
    First-World problems are serious business. This is all just arguing in generalities, as CU is going to be P2P, and I am very happy for it.
  • BowbowDAoCBowbowDAoC Granby, QCPosts: 470Member

    I think we're drifting away from the original post here :)

    lets not start to judge how people live their lifes :)

    it was a debate on sub vs F2P and such :)

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    Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
    Thurka on WAR

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  • BurntvetBurntvet Baltimore, MDPosts: 2,947Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by PerfArt

    First-World problems are serious business. This is all just arguing in generalities, as CU is going to be P2P, and I am very happy for it.

     

    Same. I just hope they keep a damn cash shop out....
  • WolvanWolvan New Lenox, ILPosts: 49Member

    No, we don't expect everybody to have the same amount of money.  It is pretty simple, if you can't afford the sub fee then DON'T play.

    If you can't priortize your finances enough to support a hobby that you supposedly want to play...then we don't want you.

     

    Really.  Just go find a hobby thats free. 

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  • KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by morfidon
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Originally posted by morfidon
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Originally posted by morfidon
    Originally posted by Kuppa

    I don't like monthly fees and it's many horrible arguments, like:

    1. "anyone has that amount of money": That amount of money is clearly not in everyones hand, if you have it great. Give thanks for the fact that you have a well paying job or have parents who give you money or maybe won the lotto, I don't know or care the point is not everyone is on the same boat so please don't boast how "cheap" it is. It just makes you look ignorant.
    2. "kids will come!": The kids that will come are the spoiled brats that can afford a sub.
    3. "It's cheaper than a movie!": Yes, it's cheaper than a movie, an amusement park, a concert, ect... Where this falls flat on its ass is that compared to other games it's more expensive. It's easy to know there is something wrong when folks try to justify the price of something when they have to start compairing it to other things aside from it's direct competition.
    4. "they need that montly income": In this market with so many games that cost much less they will not get that monthly income if players feel like they could be getting more for their money elsewhere. They have to lower the price of admission in order to even get people in the door and after they are in the door they have to blow them away to justify a sub. So it actually hurts to charge a sub even though it sounds good in theory(in this market).

     

    1. If someone don't have 15 free dollars per month he shouldn't play games. So not everyone have 1000$ to go for Disney, let everyone go there for free. Wtf ?

    2. It's not always like that. I'm almost sure it's different. Most of people i know who played free games like for example tibia had some poblems with law in real life. At least it's from experience.  (it doesn't apply to all of them of course)

    3. So go to that other games. We don't want here ppl who want everything for free. Who thinks that everything should be theirs because they exist in world. Because you were born doesn't give you rights to somebody work for free.

    4. As I mentioned above. Go somewhere else. They will get more in PvP game from subscription it will be stable and they will focus on game not on thing like items for people who pay.

    1. Missed the point completely. Im not saying that if you don't have the money then let them play it anyways. It's the idea that if I have that money everyone else SHOULD also have it. Don't think 15/mo is within reach of everyone.

     

    2. ???

     

    3 & 4. I'm not complaining about the game, Im debating the business model itself. Don't take it personal with the game, although if you believe a list of ideas on a piece of paper stands to deserve anything then so be it but that's a different problem.

     

    1. I didn't also say that 15$ is in reach of everyone. You don't have money. You don't play. You don't work you, you have other real life problems you don't have money and what's more you shouldn't spend your time on games. It's so simple. 15$ might be a lot for some people. But games like that are not for them. They have thousands of free to play games. There they can go.

    3&4 What is that problem ? If the ideas on a piece of paper deserve my cash it's good. It's not the problem at all.

    1. Then you agree with me on saying that a statement like "anyone has that amount of money" is right, why complaint in the first place?

     

    3&4. That problem is aside from the original post, it's based on the game nothing to do with business models. But, like I said it's a topic for a nother time.

    1. Of course i agree but it doesn't give people who don't have that money rights to play the game like this. If they want to play game like this they have to start doing something new in life that will allow them to enter a new lvl of life, which obviously nowadays isn't that high for majority of people.

    That is outside of the point.

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  • KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by PerfArt
    First-World problems are serious business. This is all just arguing in generalities, as CU is going to be P2P, and I am very happy for it.

    Agreed, I look foward to seeing wht this game brings. I have yet to see a full fledge mmo come out of kickstarter and be successful. Not to say this game won't but it's always interesting to see how much confidence and money people place on something that doesn't exist.

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  • rutaqrutaq somerville, MAPosts: 428Member Uncommon

    Sorry, maybe I am in the minority but....

     

    I pray that it is a monthly subscription only game.

     

    Nothing is free, MMOs take a lot of hard working people to run well and a simple box sale won't cover it.  I want the people that play to be ones that pay for the game, not the ones addicted to Pay 2 Win, or obbessed with cosmetic pets,etc...

     

    Developers should be focused on improving game play not designing pink bunny hats, sparkly mounts or Double XP potions, etc...

  • Storm_FirebladeStorm_Fireblade FlensburgPosts: 156Member

    A subscription based payment model is one of the core-elements I found most appealing, when it comes to Camelot Unchained. I am so tired of browsing through Cash Shops, checking the limitations depending on how much I´ve spent, losing some form for pay2win race....and more.

    I don´t say, that all MMO´s without a monthly fee are bad or use the wrong payment method in general. I´m just saying that personally I´m very fond of subscription based payment models. The developer has some form for regularly income due to those fees and I pay the subscription once a month with everything else, without haveing to do anything else than enjoy the game from there.

    Although not everyone has the same amount of money to spare, I fully support those argueing for a change of priorities, if you cannot pay 15$ a month for a game like this. Sorry, but it is plain wrong to argue, that everyone should be able to play this game, no matter your financial situation.

    We are talking luxury here. This is online-gaming, not buying food or renting some place to live. Many people out there can afford to buy a Ferrari or even their own sailboats. As of yet - I can´t. Still, it isn´t fair to demand from any of them to drive a Toyota and a paddle boat instead, just because my financial background doesn´t allow for more.

     

    Camelot Unchained Fanpage
    https://simply-gaming.com/camelot/

  • nbtscannbtscan Phoenix, AZPosts: 781Member Uncommon
    Not that I have any real interest in this game, but I figured I'd chime in.  WoW is still getting money from millions of people, so it's not exactly correct of you to call subscriptions "archaic".  Yes, most companies don't do it anymore, but that's because their game wasn't successful enough to run on a P2P structure.  WoW, FFXI and Rift all still have subscriptions and remain successful.  I think FFXIV: ARR will be successful with a subscription model as well.
  • BurntvetBurntvet Baltimore, MDPosts: 2,947Member Uncommon
    The other thing is who says the sub fee need be $15 any more? Why does the industry still seem to largely hang on that number? It used to be necessary for that, back in the UO/DAOC/EQ days because server and bandwidth costs were proportionally very high. But now, those are so cheap, that many games are run "free to play", so that is not a key factor in the $15 number any more. That being the case, why not set the sub at around $10, with possible discounts for multi-month buys? Or less even. That way, the sub "barrier to entry" is not so high, and at the same time, allows the devs/pubs to avoid having their gameplay designs compromised by having them center around making people use the cash shop. Plus, it gets you out of some of the other downsides of F2P games (crappier communities, Botters/cheaters that can not be gotten rid of, being accused of being P2W). Something I'd consider were I in one of the big chairs.
  • morfidonmorfidon BochniaPosts: 245Member

    BTW there is a very good sign from this topic.

    Majority of ppl defend the subscription model, which means people who gonna play this game has some cash so it means kickstarter might be really funded :)

  • AethaerynAethaeryn Kitchener, ONPosts: 1,976Member Uncommon
    I will throw in a disagree as well.   Unless there is a cash shop as well then just go F2P. . I would sub to a game that was monthly without a cash shop.  Even field.  The power to use my PC costs more per month.

    Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!

  • LokyLoky Toronto, ONPosts: 182Member
    Originally posted by Sketchit
    Originally posted by morfidon

    Also DISAGREE. I want a good community. Not a hoping players who jump from realm to realm.

    I don't want also so many kids. 

    10-15$ per month is very cheap. And it's good for overall quality of game. Let devs focus on game not on rewards for people who pay. 

    BTW LoL is instant action game not a game like CU is gonna be. CU is gonna have legendary moments that might be unpredictable and we need it to be paid not free.

    You don't want so many kids? I really hate to let you down, but if kids want to play a game, they'll get their parents to fork over the cash. Sorry. Look at WoW. Look at Xbox live. A monthly fee does not stop children from playing.

    Players who hop from realm to realm could be stopped with a box fee.

    The last sentence is a HUGE point. Xrealming will never be stopped totally, but a fee would help control it somewhat. BUT lots of Dark Age players ran multiple accounts, still do and im sure some will cross realm beacuse they cant help themselves.

    Monthly fees all the way.

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  • AiscenceAiscence TrPosts: 6Member

    I really don't like the shop system. i like to know that everything i see, i can have it in game.  I don't want to have acces to only one type of chair for my house, when the shop have 6 superb one, it's not F2P, but it's frustrating for people who just want to have a well-looking house/character.

    The second downside is said in the FP #10: If it's free to play, you will have lot of hater from other realm, 12 people guy who will come to troll, more spy from other realms and other things. You can't have a realm pride and linked people if they don't give a little into the game, it's that little thing who show people who really want to play.

     

    If it really going to happen, do it on different servers... like EQ2X have done for a moment.

  • SlampigSlampig Chantilly, VAPosts: 2,376Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by sweetdigs

    DISAGREE!!

    Make it a monthly subscription.  No cash house.  No pay to win.  No pay to level past level 20. 

    Just a flat monthly subscription so everybody is on equal footing.

     


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    That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

  • Storm_FirebladeStorm_Fireblade FlensburgPosts: 156Member
    Originally posted by Burntvet
    The other thing is who says the sub fee need be $15 any more? Why does the industry still seem to largely hang on that number? It used to be necessary for that, back in the UO/DAOC/EQ days because server and bandwidth costs were proportionally very high. But now, those are so cheap, that many games are run "free to play", so that is not a key factor in the $15 number any more. That being the case, why not set the sub at around $10, with possible discounts for multi-month buys? Or less even. That way, the sub "barrier to entry" is not so high, and at the same time, allows the devs/pubs to avoid having their gameplay designs compromised by having them center around making people use the cash shop. Plus, it gets you out of some of the other downsides of F2P games (crappier communities, Botters/cheaters that can not be gotten rid of, being accused of being P2W). Something I'd consider were I in one of the big chairs.

    Mark did already mention, that the monthly fee for Camelot Unchained won´t be at the top of current MMO´s. Due to the lack of PvE, the developement costs will be lower than other companies need to deal with, so therefor the players will have to pay less for the game too.

    Camelot Unchained Fanpage
    https://simply-gaming.com/camelot/

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,461Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sketchit
     

    Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 can cover the cost of the servers without a monthly fee.

    GW2 gets monthly content updates, with no monthly fee.

    The in-game shop is cosmetic only. It works.

    I didn't say make it F2P, I suggested B2P. Which is different.

    er, they also have cash shops. If anything their service is close "f2p" games; relying upon a small group of people to pay over and above while others pay a nominal amount or nothing. There's just a box price for entry.

    As far as GW2, let's not put the cart before the horse. It just launched. Let's see how successful it is over the course of time. They've already said they are not planning for an expansion so it seems that the game will have to run a bit before they even consider it.

    In any case "no, keep it subscription".

  • asmkm22asmkm22 Anchorage, AKPosts: 1,788Member
    Originally posted by sweetdigs

    DISAGREE!!

    Make it a monthly subscription.  No cash house.  No pay to win.  No pay to level past level 20. 

    Just a flat monthly subscription so everybody is on equal footing.

     

    Exactly.  There are way too many gamers that just want cheap/free games, and seem to have no idea how crappy cash shops have made MMO's.

    You make me like charity

  • dreamer05dreamer05 Kansas City, MOPosts: 545Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by sweetdigs

    DISAGREE!!

    Make it a monthly subscription.  No cash house.  No pay to win.  No pay to level past level 20. 

    Just a flat monthly subscription so everybody is on equal footing.

     

    Agree ten times over. Say NO to cash shop and unfair advantage.  Even in today's economy even 14$ a month is seriously pretty cheap.  I would much prefer sub based over free to play with cash shop.

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    "God, please help us sinful children of Ivalice.."

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