Originally posted by Elikal I must admit I am spoiled by the movement combat of GW2. Now going back to "old school" rooted combat feels... weird. Like being hindered or what. I really began to get used to the movement-combat of GW2 and actually like that as action combat.
I love GW2 but it has no endgame to speak of. Ohh look run Fractals again for the hundreth time, or CoF + AC. BOOORING! With the hinderance of not ahving a proper dungeon finder. Or Ican play NWO with new dungeons getting released DAILY and I can do it solo or with a group using a dungeon finder.
Cant wait for NWO to release so I can take a good long break from GW2 and hope some solid content gets added and not that trash from the last 2 patches. Literally completed all the content from flame and frost (or what ever its called) within the first day of each patch'es release.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Is there really no one that has seen the interview with Bill and Grakulen yesterday ? ...In that interview the dev gave the reason for "testing" the rooting in this game..
If they had no rooting the mages would dominate the battlefield with "KITING"...So..It's a balance issue !!!
Just as it is in any MMO that allows ranged to move. You then have to give melee's gimmick to be able to compete...such as Ranged Warrior builds, or broken stealth. Listen I like both styles, but its nice to actually be able to use my melee skills for somethign other then a meat shield for others.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
It is so cute to see many MMO players that are completely clueless as to what action combat it. Action combat generally roots you. The god fathers and the most popular action combat games roots you. Look at Diablo, God of War, Bayonetta, Kingdoms of Amalur, Batman Arkham Asylum, Dark Soul, Devil May Cry I can go on forever.
GW2 is not a action combat game, it is a tab/target game with a aimbot like mechanic. It is basically a clunkier version of WoW combat where all abilities act liek AoE abilites.
Heck even games like Street Fighter and Mortal Combat root you. So please don't talk about the action combat genre if you don't know what they represent. "Action combat" doesn't mean fast combat. Combat in GW2 was mindless and spammy, there were zero conquences for your actions. You payed for nothing. It was dumbed down a little too much.
Originally posted by fiftyplusgeek Oh, you wanted a MOVEABLE cleric. Those are available in the cash shop.
No, that's the cleric that can use mace. shield, and plate
On topic, I have suspicion that this "rooting" thing is not as big as it's being made out to be.
It isn't and it becomes more apparent the higher you get in levels. Right now my Wiz is 27 and my cleric is 14, both are as mobile as any class in GW2 with the proper build with the added bonus that I am not skating on the ground and my attacks feel more viscreal.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
While the rooted combat I am not a fan of (but somehow is really fun), it is however not as clunky as Tera, and the animations are far quicker (unlike Tera I dont miss 90% of my attacks on a PvP target) making the rooted combat suck but not as bad as tera. I play Berserker in tera, and rogue in neverwinter mind you.
What actually turns me off to the game the most is the non open world, and how you just port from place to place..... To me it is just a very pretty hack and slash dungeon crawler......
As a melee class player I really enjoy jumping and strafing side to side while attacking, double tapping in a direction to dodge in an MMO just doesnt seem quite right to me.....
which is what the game is.. but that's what i was expecting so not dissapointed in this aspect.. i knew it was more of a 3d diablo type dungeon crawler with some larger open zones thrown in
I actually dread having to do the open zones LOL. I would much prfer to just queue duyngeons and events all day or run foundry missions non stop with out having to go run around looking for quest objjectives. LOL.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Seems like you are as stuck in the past as developers who can't understand that rooted combat has become an archaic throwback to times best forgotten.
I stand by what I said. Rooted combat has no place in the current generation of MMOs and if balance is the excuse, they aren't very good developers.
Actually it is quite the opposite. Developers are moving away from combat that is spammy and button mash that has no consequences. Developers that make games in which you can spam your abilities take the easy way out, it is lazy design. They do it to satisfy the least common denominator that prefer ease over a decent challenge.
Award winning games like Batman's Arkyam Asylum and Witcher 2 have roots. I just don't think you might be aware of how combat work in games.
GW2 combat for example was too dumbed down and spammy. Devs need to move away from that and looks like most are. It is easy to remove the roots, it is harder to design a game with roots considering enemy AI. In Tera you make a wrong move when a Boss is ready to pounce on your face you are dead, you paid a price for a mistake. In spammy dumbed down combat games you would be 100% fine.
I believe it's also a matter of balance. I can't even begin to imagine how many extra levels of OP would have the Control Wizard and the Devoted Cleric if they could just prance about as they shoot their spells around, both in PvE and PvP. Being a ranged class has many advantages, so being rooted for half a second when you cast a spell is a necessary balancing tradeoff.
It's the same in most classic mmo's, where melee can move freely along the hit boxes of the enemies, while casters have to find someplace safe to stand and cast. I am personally playing a Devoted Cleric and I'm not having any issue with it, but that's my own taste anyway. And as if the Cleric wasn't overpowered already, I don't even want to imagine how ridiculously overpowered would be if I could move while casting.
If the developers need rooted combat to "balance" an MMO, they really have no business working in the genre.
Yeah, like in WoW casters can't move while casting since day one to present. In fact, one of the casting classes has a cooldown ability that allows them to cast while moving for a short time (shamans), so it's pretty clear that the rooting is used as a balancing factor.
But yeah, since WoW uses rooting while casting, that game really has no business in the genre.
Oh wait.
You might want to try again with another argument.
Seems like you are as stuck in the past as developers who can't understand that rooted combat has become an archaic throwback to times best forgotten.
I stand by what I said. Rooted combat has no place in the current generation of MMOs and if balance is the excuse, they aren't very good developers.
Damn Fiontar, stop abusing the other posters.
EDIT: Yes, if you support rooted combat, you are king Joffrey.
Nah, if he were correct then developers would have managed to balance ranged and melee classes in other MMO's. They of course have not and there is constant balancing going on in games a decade old still because no one has managed to find a way to actually balance it without rooting.
An example would be as old as WoW is it too is still rebalancing and nerfing classes and will continue to do so long into the forseeable future.
So yes, the developers in NVW are managing to balance something other developers have been struggling with for over a decade by using rooting combined with a mobility/defense system that uses resources. Shame on them for being stuck in the past... why use something that actually works when you can rehash numerous attempts that have failed over and over...
As much as I love seeing King Joff get slapped like a b!tch, I believe I must toss in a few $0.02.
All games I've ever played has taken a cue from real life. Our perceptions of reality shape our creativity in fantasy and give rise to ideas of what could be; an example, the 'ray gun/heat ray' was actually an idea invented by H.G Wells in War of the Worlds. Science fiction took a cue from science and voila, the rest is history.
I think the same idea applies to combat, and gamers just don't know it. Watch any martial artist, mma fighter, boxer, Bruce Lee video, Jet Li action flick. I challange you to find a trained fighter not have a solid, steady base when fighting. The reason for this is simple. If your moving around, your body is reducing the amount of muscles it can effectively use to generate more power in a precision strike. Which is why when my Guardian swings his Tide of Iron (shield slam), I don't mind being rooted in place. It makes sense, cause it's what you'd have to do irl.
Any of you ever read Raymond E. Fiests the Magician? Kulgan (An experienced Mage) was able to channel a spell to hold off a wraith. Only problem was, the spell was so taxing he had to be carried out by the rest of his friends and party, for if he so much as moved, he'd break his concentration. If I ever read a book or watched a series where a Mage was able to deftly dodge a slashing blade whilst flinging molten death from his finger tips I'd have turned the tv off, or thrown the book out.
There are reasons (other then balance) for why it makes sense to root players in combat. In Neverwinter, I don't mind being rooted for the combat. It feels right. I do admit, that the Arcance Wiz (don't judge) should be a little bit more fluid in using Magic missle, and look a little less like he's water bending. But that's the games aesthetic, and I get that.
Originally posted by Aerowyn after playing more another Issue I have with the rooting is lack of overall CC coupled with the sheer amount of enemies combined with how damn fast they move sometimes. You dodge once and they are on top of you in a second or less which makes dodging almost pointless unless you are doing it against a heavy attack. In group play it probably isn't such a big deal but when going solo it really is a pain and not much fun.. still sticking to melee for now ranged in this game just isn't for me
What class Aero? Wizard does get better post 15 when you get access to the ground targetted freeze effect (if you place it in your tab bar).
For the most part though, Cleric is OP as F*** and can take a nice beating if you kit yourself right. Still waiting to try the GWF (Great Weapon Fighter) since I always play a heavy armored 2H melee guy in MMO's but right now CLeric is making a strong push for my main.
that was with wizard.. i know at 17 you get the aoe freeze skill but overall i just don't find this sort of rooted ranged combat fun in an action game.. also people who compare it to god of war, dmc, and bayonneta have no clue has it plays out very differn't. In the games i just mentioned rooting happens but you have an insanely fast transition between skills where its pretty much seamless and you don't notice it at all. In games like this and tera the ranged rooting is very noticable and just feels "off". Oh well melee is fun and they'll add more classes down the line maybe ill like but for now just don't enjoy ranged in this game at all.. to be fair i couldn't play ranged in tera and i don't like it in the diablo games for the exact same reasons
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
also people who compare it to god of war, dmc, and bayonneta have no clue has it plays out very differn't. In the games i just mentioned rooting happens but you have an insanely fast transition between skills where its pretty much seamless and you don't notice it at all. In games like this and tera the ranged rooting is very noticable and just feels "off". Oh well melee is fun and they'll add more classes down the line maybe ill like but for now just don't enjoy ranged in this game at all.. to be fair i couldn't play ranged in tera and i don't like it in the diablo games for the exact same reasons
You mentioned games that have faster transition and games that have no casters, but didn't mention the games that don't have faster transition that have casting classes like Batman Arkham Asylum, Diablo, Witcher 2, Dark Souls and many other action games.
It feels off because a lot of MMO players are not used to it. Nothing felt off in Tera or even Neverwinter to me personally, it just felt completely natural and fine. Tera for example, there are two camps one that feel it is the best MMO combat ever, and the other that complain about it not being "fast" enough because they aren't used to action games.
At level 58 in a quest in Tera they boost your attack speed up by a significant margin and it feels exactly like DMC and Bayonetta. So the devs can easily switch a button on and make it fast, but they don't because they want your mistakes to count. If it was spammy combat the boss and BAM encounters would be faceroll.
At the end of the day if people don't like it they can stick to easy mode combat where your action doesn't have consequences. There are many games out there like that.
Diablo 3 is the best selling game ever even with its "rooted" combat. So the gaming community is usually fine with it.
Tera keeps getting mentioned here as being "off". There's a concept in MMOs called progression. You get attack speed on gear as well as glyphs later on which decreases the animation/charge time (or "clunkiness") significantly. But yeah, so many people want to start off swinging/casting like their character is already progressed without going through the game before they come on the forum and cry about how rooted animation killed their firstborn.
I implore those that are against rooted combat to do some research about where the kinetic energy comes from in a melee swing, like a punch. (HINT: it's not from the arms).
Tera keeps getting mentioned here as being "off". There's a concept in MMOs called progression. You get attack speed on gear as well as glyphs later on which decreases the animation/charge time (or "clunkiness") significantly. But yeah, so many people want to start off swinging/casting like their character is already progressed without going through the game before they come on the forum and cry about how rooted animation killed their firstborn.
I implore those that are against rooted combat to do some research about where the kinetic energy comes from in a melee swing, like a punch. (HINT: it's not from the arms).
animation lock and melee combat never bothered me its the range that does.. run and gun style feels so much more fluid than stop, run, cast style especially if the animations don't flow well together when transitioning between the 3. Even if it was just a balance thing you could slow down movement for casters by a determinded amount like say 75% and still allow slow peddling around so they don't feel so grounded which to me is very annoying and not fun at all imho... ive always hated being a turret though in games like diablo so i never play ranged in those game and looks like I won't be playing ranged in this one either
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Tera keeps getting mentioned here as being "off". There's a concept in MMOs called progression. You get attack speed on gear as well as glyphs later on which decreases the animation/charge time (or "clunkiness") significantly. But yeah, so many people want to start off swinging/casting like their character is already progressed without going through the game before they come on the forum and cry about how rooted animation killed their firstborn.
I implore those that are against rooted combat to do some research about where the kinetic energy comes from in a melee swing, like a punch. (HINT: it's not from the arms).
animation lock and melee combat never bothered me its the range that does.. run and gun style feels so much more fluid than stop, run, cast style especially if the animations don't flow well together when transitioning between the 3. Even if it was just a balance thing you could slow down movement for casters by a determinded amount like say 75% and still allow slow peddling around so they don't feel so grounded which to me is very annoying and not fun at all imho... ive always hated being a turret though in games like diablo so i never play ranged in those game and looks like I won't be playing ranged in this one either
If you want to run and gun then you have to incur some sort of accuracy penalty, because as it stands in most tab target MMOs, ranged do not incur an accuracy penalty for attacking on-the-move like they should. Reduce accuracy to 25% or less and then sure, you can have your ranged attacks while moving - like it would be in RL. How many people can run and shoot accurately at the same time? Not many, especially with a ranged weapon like a bow that requires multiple muscle group working in coordination for any kind of consistency. Can't really argue about spells since it doesn't exist in RL, but it's implied that it takes some effort to cast.
Tera keeps getting mentioned here as being "off". There's a concept in MMOs called progression. You get attack speed on gear as well as glyphs later on which decreases the animation/charge time (or "clunkiness") significantly. But yeah, so many people want to start off swinging/casting like their character is already progressed without going through the game before they come on the forum and cry about how rooted animation killed their firstborn.
I implore those that are against rooted combat to do some research about where the kinetic energy comes from in a melee swing, like a punch. (HINT: it's not from the arms).
animation lock and melee combat never bothered me its the range that does.. run and gun style feels so much more fluid than stop, run, cast style especially if the animations don't flow well together when transitioning between the 3. Even if it was just a balance thing you could slow down movement for casters by a determinded amount like say 75% and still allow slow peddling around so they don't feel so grounded which to me is very annoying and not fun at all imho... ive always hated being a turret though in games like diablo so i never play ranged in those game and looks like I won't be playing ranged in this one either
If you want to run and gun then you have to incur some sort of accuracy penalty, because as it stands in most tab target MMOs, ranged do not incur an accuracy penalty for attacking on-the-move like they should. Reduce accuracy to 25% or less and then sure, you can have your ranged attacks while moving - like it would be in RL. How many people can run and shoot accurately at the same time? Not many, especially with a ranged weapon like a bow that requires multiple muscle group working in coordination for any kind of consistency. Can't really argue about spells since it doesn't exist in RL, but it's implied that it takes some effort to cast.
you don't even need run and gun though(i just enjoy that style).. just give a heavy movement speed reduction like 75% which would allow you to still not feel locked down. It also would help with the flow of combat and not feel so run stop cast run stop cast. This way ranged still can't kite everything but doesn't remain a turret.. i also never understand the realism argument when we are talking about fantasy based video games..
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Tera keeps getting mentioned here as being "off". There's a concept in MMOs called progression. You get attack speed on gear as well as glyphs later on which decreases the animation/charge time (or "clunkiness") significantly. But yeah, so many people want to start off swinging/casting like their character is already progressed without going through the game before they come on the forum and cry about how rooted animation killed their firstborn.
I implore those that are against rooted combat to do some research about where the kinetic energy comes from in a melee swing, like a punch. (HINT: it's not from the arms).
animation lock and melee combat never bothered me its the range that does.. run and gun style feels so much more fluid than stop, run, cast style especially if the animations don't flow well together when transitioning between the 3. Even if it was just a balance thing you could slow down movement for casters by a determinded amount like say 75% and still allow slow peddling around so they don't feel so grounded which to me is very annoying and not fun at all imho... ive always hated being a turret though in games like diablo so i never play ranged in those game and looks like I won't be playing ranged in this one either
If you want to run and gun then you have to incur some sort of accuracy penalty, because as it stands in most tab target MMOs, ranged do not incur an accuracy penalty for attacking on-the-move like they should. Reduce accuracy to 25% or less and then sure, you can have your ranged attacks while moving - like it would be in RL. How many people can run and shoot accurately at the same time? Not many, especially with a ranged weapon like a bow that requires multiple muscle group working in coordination for any kind of consistency. Can't really argue about spells since it doesn't exist in RL, but it's implied that it takes some effort to cast.
you don't even need run and gun though(i just enjoy that style).. just give a heavy movement speed reduction like 75% which would allow you to still not feel locked down. It also would help with the flow of combat and not feel so run stop cast run stop cast. This way ranged still can't kite everything but doesn't remain a turret.. i also never understand the realism argument when we are talking about fantasy based video games..
I was wondering when you were going to use the "it's fantasy though" card. It's simple, MMOs simulate combat. This goes back to the roots (haha) of pen and paper D&D. There's elements of RL combat that translates into fantasy combat so it makes sense because we can relate to it, otherwise anything is possible and there's no sense even debating it. There is structure to western fantasy whether you want to admit it or not.
I was wondering when you were going to use the "it's fantasy though" card. It's simple, MMOs simulate combat. This goes back to the roots (haha) of pen and paper D&D. There's elements of RL combat that translates into fantasy combat so it makes sense because we can relate to it, otherwise anything is possible and there's no sense even debating it. There is structure to western fantasy whether you want to admit it or not.
i have still yet to hear anyone come up with a good reason why greatly reduced movement speed while casting/channeling would not work well in this game.. if a wizard is channeling ray of frost you could allow him to move while channeling with a 75% movement reduction penalty. I don't see how this would bother balance and would get over that akward look/feel of going from a run to a deadstop and cast then run again to move.. this would allow better transition of animations between the actions and not feel as abrupt as it is now.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
This kind of "rooted" playstyle is dated and belongs in the 90's.
It was ok on the Guardian fighter ( which I enjoyed the class) on the Control Wizzard i feel trapped, and not mobile like a caster should be. Maybe if freezing ray did what it says it does, but mobs seem to move at same speed to me, and ray takes forever to temp freeze them.....either that needs adjusting or the DPS does.
....Being Banned from MMORPG's forums since 2010, for Trolling the Trolls!!!
Regarding rooting - it is a conceptual implementation, not a technical one.
Last year in PAX, ranged class(mage) was not rooted. you could use powers while moving. It is said that it was rooted recently. Zeke, a developer, had this to say on the change - The decision to root melee was taken because the power has to come from legs. So they wanted combat to be realistic. The ranged classes earlier did not had any rooting.
However there were imbalance issues and ranged classes could kite easily the places where melee classes had a lot of difficulty. In order to adress that, ranged classes were also rooted for many of their powers.
Hence the decision to root the classes is a conceptual one and not a technical one (old era engine argument does nto hold). Those who played it at E3 year ago know that ranged classes used to move without any rooting at all. I haven't seen melee classes not rooted personally, so I cant say for sure, but it seems that un-rooting of melee is also possible technically.
So if we all gie feedback to developers that rooting is not good, they will remove it - realisim be damned we want fluid combat and they want profit!
Regarding rooting - it is a conceptual implementation, not a technical one.
Last year in PAX, ranged class(mage) was not rooted. you could use powers while moving. It is said that it was rooted recently. Zeke, a developer, had this to say on the change - The decision to root melee was taken because the power has to come from legs. So they wanted combat to be realistic. The ranged classes earlier did not had any rooting.
However there were imbalance issues and ranged classes could kite easily the places where melee classes had a lot of difficulty. In order to adress that, ranged classes were also rooted for many of their powers.
Hence the decision to root the classes is a conceptual one and not a technical one (old era engine argument does nto hold). Those who played it at E3 year ago know that ranged classes used to move without any rooting at all. I haven't seen melee classes not rooted personally, so I cant say for sure, but it seems that un-rooting of melee is also possible technically.
So if we all gie feedback to developers that rooting is not good, they will remove it - realisim be damned we want fluid combat and they want profit!
An an utterly crap concept when it hinders ones evasive/dodging in a game where responsiveness is crucial. One cannot get out of the red danger zone because of this crap concept. The game's combat is based on a highly mobile combat system. If your doing a root combat system then the combat needs to be like WoW where tank n spanks is pretty routine with some fight mechanics to make things intresting, DON'T have a rooting system in a game where one has to be highly mobile to avoid attacks especially where the healer cannot heal that amount of dmg which is the case in Neverwinter.
I was wondering when you were going to use the "it's fantasy though" card. It's simple, MMOs simulate combat. This goes back to the roots (haha) of pen and paper D&D. There's elements of RL combat that translates into fantasy combat so it makes sense because we can relate to it, otherwise anything is possible and there's no sense even debating it. There is structure to western fantasy whether you want to admit it or not.
i have still yet to hear anyone come up with a good reason why greatly reduced movement speed while casting/channeling would not work well in this game.. if a wizard is channeling ray of frost you could allow him to move while channeling with a 75% movement reduction penalty. I don't see how this would bother balance and would get over that akward look/feel of going from a run to a deadstop and cast then run again to move.. this would allow better transition of animations between the actions and not feel as abrupt as it is now.
My final $0.02 on this subject.
RED!: Aerowyn, I disagree, there has been several decent rationalizations as to why there is rooting in this game, and why simply using a greatly reduced movement speed isn't going to be implemented. I am now beginning to believe the problem not lies in the arguments of those trying to debate you, but your unwillingness to listen to them, or acknowledge their legitimacy. Your akin to a child in an argument who covers his ears screaming, 'Lalalala! I can't hear you!' to try and avoid having to be wrong.
Here is a quick summerization of what has been said:
1) All western fantasy can trace it's roots back to reality, and thus, design decisions were always founded on what could be possible in real life.
2) There is a balancing issue regarding rooting melee characters and not rooting ranged characters which was addressed by the devs and as such, the decision was made to make all classes rooted. This was so ranged users couldn't simply kite all their enemies whilst melee had to sit there and take the hit.
3) With the game being focused on Action combat, rooting characters in place allows them the ability to dodge incoming attacks which can be telegraphed by watching your opponent, thus adding a level of skill requirement to the game.
I have conceded in my previous post that the animations (especially on the Control Wiz - Seriously, has no one else complained Magic Missle resembles water bending?) need a bit more work, but in regards to everything else. I personally disagree with you one hundred and one percent.
I like the self root, because it makes the combat more strategic...imo it takes skill to know when to perform a move, when to dodge, reposition, etc.
It's not mindless moving around like GW2 (I like GW2, but the combat is a weak point for me)...without the rooting, avoiding the big attacks would be trivial. I like that it is possible to take on a big pack of mobs and, if you play properly, take almost no damage while others shug potions like crazy.
Imo, the "slow moving while casting" suggestion would make the gameplay feel weird and solve nothing in the process, because ppl would just start to complain about the "self snare" instead.
That said, I'm a veteran TERA player...so I'm used to the root on an even greater degree (TERA roots you for longer, your character moves slower while in combat, etc). At the beginning I hated it, but after I actually learned the combat it became very fun and different from classic combat games (WoW, EQ, etc).
I think the combat is fine how it is. The only small term change I could see being implemented would be faster animation times which means less time standing still after using a skill etc. and balancing each individual skill differently so that you can move faster after using certain skills, meaning said certain skills are quicker to cast, and some skills that do larger amounts of damage or larger area of effects may root you for a longer duration than said other skills that are weaker or highly mobile.
For example, I played a cleric up to level 10, I typically don't like playing beta's too long because it ruins the fun for me when the game actually launches, but I could suggest that the basic left click ability which throws spears could have less animation time so that you can sort of throw a spear, take a small step back in between throws, and continue the chain of throwing the spears since the 3rd spear does more damage. But some skills like my daily power that calls down the angel wings of light or whatnot, which does a lot of damage and also knocks down or stuns the enemy(something like that) should take longer to cast and hinder your movement capabilities more than just basic and smaller attacks.
I'm not suggesting to completey remove the rooting system for the weaker, more mobile skills, but just tweaking them slightly to improve upon their current system which is fine altogether.
I think the combat is fine how it is. The only small term change I could see being implemented would be faster animation times which means less time standing still after using a skill etc. and balancing each individual skill differently so that you can move faster after using certain skills, meaning said certain skills are quicker to cast, and some skills that do larger amounts of damage or larger area of effects may root you for a longer duration than said other skills that are weaker or highly mobile.
For example, I played a cleric up to level 10, I typically don't like playing beta's too long because it ruins the fun for me when the game actually launches, but I could suggest that the basic left click ability which throws spears could have less animation time so that you can sort of throw a spear, take a small step back in between throws, and continue the chain of throwing the spears since the 3rd spear does more damage. But some skills like my daily power that calls down the angel wings of light or whatnot, which does a lot of damage and also knocks down or stuns the enemy(something like that) should take longer to cast and hinder your movement capabilities more than just basic and smaller attacks.
I'm not suggesting to completey remove the rooting system for the weaker, more mobile skills, but just tweaking them slightly to improve upon their current system which is fine altogether.
i agree.. overall it's not the rooting that is the core issue for me it's how it looks/feels. It's really an animation and transition between animations issue.. as i have said in earlier posts in other games like dmc and other fast paced action games there is a very smooth animation transition between skills even if rooting is used it is hardly noticable at all.. some animation speed ups and tweaks would do wonders
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
I have noticed some have not played the game very much or leved up very much in it. The problem with rooting is not very evident until you get into some higher levels where difficulty ramps up. If you try try out the 40+ content you will see rooting may not be a problem before then but it does become one afterwards.
The game is quite easy up till 30ish where it slowly gets harder and this is where you will see peeps dying becuase they are rooted during an animation.
In end game content it is even worse where you can routinely be one shot killed if hit and where cleric healing/potting is kind of laughable and more for in between fights.
I don't mind it so much at lower levels but at high levels it just kills gameplay for me, tactics notwithstanding.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
I have noticed some have not played the game very much or leved up very much in it. The problem with rooting is not very evident until you get into some higher levels where difficulty ramps up. If you try try out the 40+ content you will see rooting may not be a problem before then but it does become one afterwards.
The game is quite easy up till 30ish where it slowly gets harder and this is where you will see peeps dying becuase they are rooted during an animation.
In end game content it is even worse where you can routinely be one shot killed if hit and where cleric healing/potting is kind of laughable and more for in between fights.
I don't mind it so much at lower levels but at high levels it just kills gameplay for me, tactics notwithstanding.
They're dying because they're not paying attention to the mob's animation. NPCs have telegraphs too and if they start a big attack and the player doesn't pay any attention to it and fail to move out of the kill zone he will get hit.
Reason that doesnt happen in lower lvls is because they got away with it with mobs that dont hit as hard so they kept doing the same thing at higher lvls - guess what...you get one shotted while in middle of your combat animation.
This is what it means by action combat - There is NO TAB Targetting. You have to be aware of your position , the boss' position and what the boss is doing as opposed to spamming your skills and movement keys.
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I love GW2 but it has no endgame to speak of. Ohh look run Fractals again for the hundreth time, or CoF + AC. BOOORING! With the hinderance of not ahving a proper dungeon finder. Or Ican play NWO with new dungeons getting released DAILY and I can do it solo or with a group using a dungeon finder.
Cant wait for NWO to release so I can take a good long break from GW2 and hope some solid content gets added and not that trash from the last 2 patches. Literally completed all the content from flame and frost (or what ever its called) within the first day of each patch'es release.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Just as it is in any MMO that allows ranged to move. You then have to give melee's gimmick to be able to compete...such as Ranged Warrior builds, or broken stealth. Listen I like both styles, but its nice to actually be able to use my melee skills for somethign other then a meat shield for others.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
It is so cute to see many MMO players that are completely clueless as to what action combat it. Action combat generally roots you. The god fathers and the most popular action combat games roots you. Look at Diablo, God of War, Bayonetta, Kingdoms of Amalur, Batman Arkham Asylum, Dark Soul, Devil May Cry I can go on forever.
GW2 is not a action combat game, it is a tab/target game with a aimbot like mechanic. It is basically a clunkier version of WoW combat where all abilities act liek AoE abilites.
Heck even games like Street Fighter and Mortal Combat root you. So please don't talk about the action combat genre if you don't know what they represent. "Action combat" doesn't mean fast combat. Combat in GW2 was mindless and spammy, there were zero conquences for your actions. You payed for nothing. It was dumbed down a little too much.
It isn't and it becomes more apparent the higher you get in levels. Right now my Wiz is 27 and my cleric is 14, both are as mobile as any class in GW2 with the proper build with the added bonus that I am not skating on the ground and my attacks feel more viscreal.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
I actually dread having to do the open zones LOL. I would much prfer to just queue duyngeons and events all day or run foundry missions non stop with out having to go run around looking for quest objjectives. LOL.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Actually it is quite the opposite. Developers are moving away from combat that is spammy and button mash that has no consequences. Developers that make games in which you can spam your abilities take the easy way out, it is lazy design. They do it to satisfy the least common denominator that prefer ease over a decent challenge.
Award winning games like Batman's Arkyam Asylum and Witcher 2 have roots. I just don't think you might be aware of how combat work in games.
GW2 combat for example was too dumbed down and spammy. Devs need to move away from that and looks like most are. It is easy to remove the roots, it is harder to design a game with roots considering enemy AI. In Tera you make a wrong move when a Boss is ready to pounce on your face you are dead, you paid a price for a mistake. In spammy dumbed down combat games you would be 100% fine.
Nah, if he were correct then developers would have managed to balance ranged and melee classes in other MMO's. They of course have not and there is constant balancing going on in games a decade old still because no one has managed to find a way to actually balance it without rooting.
An example would be as old as WoW is it too is still rebalancing and nerfing classes and will continue to do so long into the forseeable future.
So yes, the developers in NVW are managing to balance something other developers have been struggling with for over a decade by using rooting combined with a mobility/defense system that uses resources. Shame on them for being stuck in the past... why use something that actually works when you can rehash numerous attempts that have failed over and over...
As much as I love seeing King Joff get slapped like a b!tch, I believe I must toss in a few $0.02.
All games I've ever played has taken a cue from real life. Our perceptions of reality shape our creativity in fantasy and give rise to ideas of what could be; an example, the 'ray gun/heat ray' was actually an idea invented by H.G Wells in War of the Worlds. Science fiction took a cue from science and voila, the rest is history.
I think the same idea applies to combat, and gamers just don't know it. Watch any martial artist, mma fighter, boxer, Bruce Lee video, Jet Li action flick. I challange you to find a trained fighter not have a solid, steady base when fighting. The reason for this is simple. If your moving around, your body is reducing the amount of muscles it can effectively use to generate more power in a precision strike. Which is why when my Guardian swings his Tide of Iron (shield slam), I don't mind being rooted in place. It makes sense, cause it's what you'd have to do irl.
Any of you ever read Raymond E. Fiests the Magician? Kulgan (An experienced Mage) was able to channel a spell to hold off a wraith. Only problem was, the spell was so taxing he had to be carried out by the rest of his friends and party, for if he so much as moved, he'd break his concentration. If I ever read a book or watched a series where a Mage was able to deftly dodge a slashing blade whilst flinging molten death from his finger tips I'd have turned the tv off, or thrown the book out.
There are reasons (other then balance) for why it makes sense to root players in combat. In Neverwinter, I don't mind being rooted for the combat. It feels right. I do admit, that the Arcance Wiz (don't judge) should be a little bit more fluid in using Magic missle, and look a little less like he's water bending. But that's the games aesthetic, and I get that.
that was with wizard.. i know at 17 you get the aoe freeze skill but overall i just don't find this sort of rooted ranged combat fun in an action game.. also people who compare it to god of war, dmc, and bayonneta have no clue has it plays out very differn't. In the games i just mentioned rooting happens but you have an insanely fast transition between skills where its pretty much seamless and you don't notice it at all. In games like this and tera the ranged rooting is very noticable and just feels "off". Oh well melee is fun and they'll add more classes down the line maybe ill like but for now just don't enjoy ranged in this game at all.. to be fair i couldn't play ranged in tera and i don't like it in the diablo games for the exact same reasons
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
You mentioned games that have faster transition and games that have no casters, but didn't mention the games that don't have faster transition that have casting classes like Batman Arkham Asylum, Diablo, Witcher 2, Dark Souls and many other action games.
It feels off because a lot of MMO players are not used to it. Nothing felt off in Tera or even Neverwinter to me personally, it just felt completely natural and fine. Tera for example, there are two camps one that feel it is the best MMO combat ever, and the other that complain about it not being "fast" enough because they aren't used to action games.
At level 58 in a quest in Tera they boost your attack speed up by a significant margin and it feels exactly like DMC and Bayonetta. So the devs can easily switch a button on and make it fast, but they don't because they want your mistakes to count. If it was spammy combat the boss and BAM encounters would be faceroll.
At the end of the day if people don't like it they can stick to easy mode combat where your action doesn't have consequences. There are many games out there like that.
Diablo 3 is the best selling game ever even with its "rooted" combat. So the gaming community is usually fine with it.
Tera keeps getting mentioned here as being "off". There's a concept in MMOs called progression. You get attack speed on gear as well as glyphs later on which decreases the animation/charge time (or "clunkiness") significantly. But yeah, so many people want to start off swinging/casting like their character is already progressed without going through the game before they come on the forum and cry about how rooted animation killed their firstborn.
I implore those that are against rooted combat to do some research about where the kinetic energy comes from in a melee swing, like a punch. (HINT: it's not from the arms).
animation lock and melee combat never bothered me its the range that does.. run and gun style feels so much more fluid than stop, run, cast style especially if the animations don't flow well together when transitioning between the 3. Even if it was just a balance thing you could slow down movement for casters by a determinded amount like say 75% and still allow slow peddling around so they don't feel so grounded which to me is very annoying and not fun at all imho... ive always hated being a turret though in games like diablo so i never play ranged in those game and looks like I won't be playing ranged in this one either
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
If you want to run and gun then you have to incur some sort of accuracy penalty, because as it stands in most tab target MMOs, ranged do not incur an accuracy penalty for attacking on-the-move like they should. Reduce accuracy to 25% or less and then sure, you can have your ranged attacks while moving - like it would be in RL. How many people can run and shoot accurately at the same time? Not many, especially with a ranged weapon like a bow that requires multiple muscle group working in coordination for any kind of consistency. Can't really argue about spells since it doesn't exist in RL, but it's implied that it takes some effort to cast.
you don't even need run and gun though(i just enjoy that style).. just give a heavy movement speed reduction like 75% which would allow you to still not feel locked down. It also would help with the flow of combat and not feel so run stop cast run stop cast. This way ranged still can't kite everything but doesn't remain a turret.. i also never understand the realism argument when we are talking about fantasy based video games..
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
I was wondering when you were going to use the "it's fantasy though" card. It's simple, MMOs simulate combat. This goes back to the roots (haha) of pen and paper D&D. There's elements of RL combat that translates into fantasy combat so it makes sense because we can relate to it, otherwise anything is possible and there's no sense even debating it. There is structure to western fantasy whether you want to admit it or not.
i have still yet to hear anyone come up with a good reason why greatly reduced movement speed while casting/channeling would not work well in this game.. if a wizard is channeling ray of frost you could allow him to move while channeling with a 75% movement reduction penalty. I don't see how this would bother balance and would get over that akward look/feel of going from a run to a deadstop and cast then run again to move.. this would allow better transition of animations between the actions and not feel as abrupt as it is now.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
This kind of "rooted" playstyle is dated and belongs in the 90's.
It was ok on the Guardian fighter ( which I enjoyed the class) on the Control Wizzard i feel trapped, and not mobile like a caster should be. Maybe if freezing ray did what it says it does, but mobs seem to move at same speed to me, and ray takes forever to temp freeze them.....either that needs adjusting or the DPS does.
....Being Banned from MMORPG's forums since 2010, for Trolling the Trolls!!!
Regarding rooting - it is a conceptual implementation, not a technical one.
Last year in PAX, ranged class(mage) was not rooted. you could use powers while moving. It is said that it was rooted recently. Zeke, a developer, had this to say on the change - The decision to root melee was taken because the power has to come from legs. So they wanted combat to be realistic. The ranged classes earlier did not had any rooting.
However there were imbalance issues and ranged classes could kite easily the places where melee classes had a lot of difficulty. In order to adress that, ranged classes were also rooted for many of their powers.
Hence the decision to root the classes is a conceptual one and not a technical one (old era engine argument does nto hold). Those who played it at E3 year ago know that ranged classes used to move without any rooting at all. I haven't seen melee classes not rooted personally, so I cant say for sure, but it seems that un-rooting of melee is also possible technically.
So if we all gie feedback to developers that rooting is not good, they will remove it - realisim be damned we want fluid combat and they want profit!
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An an utterly crap concept when it hinders ones evasive/dodging in a game where responsiveness is crucial. One cannot get out of the red danger zone because of this crap concept. The game's combat is based on a highly mobile combat system. If your doing a root combat system then the combat needs to be like WoW where tank n spanks is pretty routine with some fight mechanics to make things intresting, DON'T have a rooting system in a game where one has to be highly mobile to avoid attacks especially where the healer cannot heal that amount of dmg which is the case in Neverwinter.
My final $0.02 on this subject.
RED!: Aerowyn, I disagree, there has been several decent rationalizations as to why there is rooting in this game, and why simply using a greatly reduced movement speed isn't going to be implemented. I am now beginning to believe the problem not lies in the arguments of those trying to debate you, but your unwillingness to listen to them, or acknowledge their legitimacy. Your akin to a child in an argument who covers his ears screaming, 'Lalalala! I can't hear you!' to try and avoid having to be wrong.
Here is a quick summerization of what has been said:
1) All western fantasy can trace it's roots back to reality, and thus, design decisions were always founded on what could be possible in real life.
2) There is a balancing issue regarding rooting melee characters and not rooting ranged characters which was addressed by the devs and as such, the decision was made to make all classes rooted. This was so ranged users couldn't simply kite all their enemies whilst melee had to sit there and take the hit.
3) With the game being focused on Action combat, rooting characters in place allows them the ability to dodge incoming attacks which can be telegraphed by watching your opponent, thus adding a level of skill requirement to the game.
I have conceded in my previous post that the animations (especially on the Control Wiz - Seriously, has no one else complained Magic Missle resembles water bending?) need a bit more work, but in regards to everything else. I personally disagree with you one hundred and one percent.
I like the self root, because it makes the combat more strategic...imo it takes skill to know when to perform a move, when to dodge, reposition, etc.
It's not mindless moving around like GW2 (I like GW2, but the combat is a weak point for me)...without the rooting, avoiding the big attacks would be trivial. I like that it is possible to take on a big pack of mobs and, if you play properly, take almost no damage while others shug potions like crazy.
Imo, the "slow moving while casting" suggestion would make the gameplay feel weird and solve nothing in the process, because ppl would just start to complain about the "self snare" instead.
That said, I'm a veteran TERA player...so I'm used to the root on an even greater degree (TERA roots you for longer, your character moves slower while in combat, etc). At the beginning I hated it, but after I actually learned the combat it became very fun and different from classic combat games (WoW, EQ, etc).
I think the combat is fine how it is. The only small term change I could see being implemented would be faster animation times which means less time standing still after using a skill etc. and balancing each individual skill differently so that you can move faster after using certain skills, meaning said certain skills are quicker to cast, and some skills that do larger amounts of damage or larger area of effects may root you for a longer duration than said other skills that are weaker or highly mobile.
For example, I played a cleric up to level 10, I typically don't like playing beta's too long because it ruins the fun for me when the game actually launches, but I could suggest that the basic left click ability which throws spears could have less animation time so that you can sort of throw a spear, take a small step back in between throws, and continue the chain of throwing the spears since the 3rd spear does more damage. But some skills like my daily power that calls down the angel wings of light or whatnot, which does a lot of damage and also knocks down or stuns the enemy(something like that) should take longer to cast and hinder your movement capabilities more than just basic and smaller attacks.
I'm not suggesting to completey remove the rooting system for the weaker, more mobile skills, but just tweaking them slightly to improve upon their current system which is fine altogether.
i agree.. overall it's not the rooting that is the core issue for me it's how it looks/feels. It's really an animation and transition between animations issue.. as i have said in earlier posts in other games like dmc and other fast paced action games there is a very smooth animation transition between skills even if rooting is used it is hardly noticable at all.. some animation speed ups and tweaks would do wonders
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
I have noticed some have not played the game very much or leved up very much in it. The problem with rooting is not very evident until you get into some higher levels where difficulty ramps up. If you try try out the 40+ content you will see rooting may not be a problem before then but it does become one afterwards.
The game is quite easy up till 30ish where it slowly gets harder and this is where you will see peeps dying becuase they are rooted during an animation.
In end game content it is even worse where you can routinely be one shot killed if hit and where cleric healing/potting is kind of laughable and more for in between fights.
I don't mind it so much at lower levels but at high levels it just kills gameplay for me, tactics notwithstanding.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
They're dying because they're not paying attention to the mob's animation. NPCs have telegraphs too and if they start a big attack and the player doesn't pay any attention to it and fail to move out of the kill zone he will get hit.
Reason that doesnt happen in lower lvls is because they got away with it with mobs that dont hit as hard so they kept doing the same thing at higher lvls - guess what...you get one shotted while in middle of your combat animation.
This is what it means by action combat - There is NO TAB Targetting. You have to be aware of your position , the boss' position and what the boss is doing as opposed to spamming your skills and movement keys.