More sandbox games have limited, or no pvp at all.
Even newer sandbox like AOW doesnt have full loot pvp. These misconceptions lead people down the wrong path and need to stop.
Newer games like Archeage wont have full loot either nor will several other sandbox style games coming out later on.
AoW is a sandpark by the developer's own admission -_-... take your own advice with misconceptions.
In that same vein Ascheron's Call is also classified as a sandpark by its characteristics ...........blah blah blah...........
No such thing as a sandpark or a hybrid. Those terms are only used by people that do not know the difference and similar aspects of each style. They use such words to make it sound better for themselves. In actuality, its still a sandbox. But many here never played one or played a game outside the normal cookie-cutter wow clone to know the difference. Including most the developers that have created these monsterous things they are releasing as mmorpg's today.
Sandbox does everything, a themepark limits everything. You can not sit there and say something is a sandpark because it has quests and a story because every freaking sandbox has quests and story either via personal story ot developer created story. Its just not handed to you on a silver platter like themeparks. There is nothing a themepark has or hasnt done that a sandbox hasnt already done. Thus you can not say its a hybrid, because in simplest form its still a sandbox. Sandbox games incoorporate everything into the game via by players or developers, themeparks limit everything. Calling a sandbox a sandpark is an insult.
Where does it say sandbox can not have quests? Every sandbox i have played has had quests. Does not say anywhere that a sandbox can not have levels or classes either. Only misconception here is you have no clue what a sandbox is.
Originally posted by Mavolence Much,much,much,much less emphasis on the importance of items. Back in UO i cared not when i got dry looted because the items were just not that important to me, i easily replaced them and had a house just full of stock piles that it took me a few minutes to get back re armor,arm,pot,aids and recall back into the fray kill and reloot both his and my own set i had just lost.
This is about right. There were those few really nice magic items though but for the most part I make 4 or 5 sets of gear and bank em. If I died I could just throw on another and ready for the fun.
Exactly, only problem is with most of today's masses of gamers it brings in too much thought into play, preparation? what's that, I "= they" want it all and want it now. Unfortunaly we can't blame them cause many where introduced by games of that nature when internet became more mainstream.
On Topic: I still feel FFA Full Loot has it's place in a mmorpg, but as said many times only if it's optional, that too me is the only way it can be fun. In a MMORPG gamers want to get to know the game, the world, the feature's/mechanics, the lore/story. Some will pursue just that, some will seek other forms like PVP. Of course the "I want it all and want it now" will start complaining that pvp s%cks as no one is playing it. A MMORPG player will or should understand that things in a MMORPG should/could take time.
sandbox =/= Freedom with many optional mechanics/feature's
full loot open world pvp =/= Pushing players into a certain playstyle = NOT Sandbox
More sandbox games have limited, or no pvp at all.
Even newer sandbox like AOW doesnt have full loot pvp. These misconceptions lead people down the wrong path and need to stop.
Newer games like Archeage wont have full loot either nor will several other sandbox style games coming out later on.
Fixed...in my opinion
So what you are saying is you think sandboxes do not have freedom, choice, tons of features, and optional game mechanics to allow players to create content to prolong the fun and longevity of a sandbox? Because all the new themepark games are #1 in sales, subs, and last for decades right? Because themeparks just offer so many features and never ending story to keep its player base going for years right?
Because if that is what you are saying.........................
As long as gear is easily replaceable i'm fine with it. Eve Online, and perhaps Mortal online being good examples of how I think FFA looting should work. The game probably shouldn't have traditional levels either, if you've played Tera/any recent open world pvp game, you know high levels will just run around ganking lowbies who can't fight back.
While I enjoyed the game, I did not like the way it was done in Lineage 2 as an example. Back at release I've had situations in which i've had to completely scrap a character and start over because some maxed out player took a pair of weapons that I could not afford to replace, not even with something out of the vendor due to the insanely high price of everything.
More sandbox games have limited, or no pvp at all.
Even newer sandbox like AOW doesnt have full loot pvp. These misconceptions lead people down the wrong path and need to stop.
Newer games like Archeage wont have full loot either nor will several other sandbox style games coming out later on.
AoW is a sandpark by the developer's own admission -_-... take your own advice with misconceptions.
In that same vein Ascheron's Call is also classified as a sandpark by its characteristics ...........blah blah blah...........
No such thing as a sandpark or a hybrid.... -cue a couple of paragraphs of self-vindication with more opinions than facts and no proof stated-
Now if you want to talk on equal footing go check where the term sandbox originated and which MMOs shaped its definition (hint it ain't Ascheron's Moan or any of the craptastic open world grindfests you seem to dellude yourself into calling sandboxes).
Also fun fact: A themepark is not a limited sandbox, it doesn't even come from the same area, a sandbox has very little to no character progression, the in-game goals are so different as to beg the questions why even put them in the same room, the options of what you want to do is completely up to you (you could only see what the developers left in place, example: EVE Online's missioning, or you could see the plethora of services you could provide in the emergent gameplay experience, example from eve: being a black/red frog freighter pilot, running an investment bank, running a lottery, becoming a professional spy, becoming a assets thief, etc) whereas in open world/themepark games your options are drastically limited by classes/optimal skill builds, area available for housing, area available for sculpting, area available for crafting (if it allows husbandry or farming), etc,etc because again with no real FFA full loot (everything is lost but not everything can be looted) your worlds are static, once crap gets put down unless the guys owning it leave the game and the game has a gold sink via taxing (thus houses and whatnot get repoed) your world will never change beyond the first few weeks/months, ergo the games without strife are not sandboxes, they are at best sandparks, at worse themeparks with sandbox elements glued on without any real consideration or depth.
sandbox =/= Freedom with many optional mechanics/feature's
full loot open world pvp =/= Pushing players into a certain playstyle = NOT Sandbox
More sandbox games have limited, or no pvp at all.
Even newer sandbox like AOW doesnt have full loot pvp. These misconceptions lead people down the wrong path and need to stop.
Newer games like Archeage wont have full loot either nor will several other sandbox style games coming out later on.
Fixed...in my opinion
So what you are saying is you think sandboxes do not have freedom, choice, tons of features, and optional game mechanics to allow players to create content to prolong the fun and longevity of a sandbox? Because all the new themepark games are #1 in sales, subs, and last for decades right? Because themeparks just offer so many features and never ending story to keep its player base going for years right?
Because if that is what you are saying.........................
huh, perhaps try and read again what's behind sandbox =/=
In a word no. Unless one happens to be a Goonie type. These days I completely avoid FFA full loot PvP games. They attract the wrong types of people, and I have no interest in playing moving target to such zealots.
Originally posted by Wraithone In a word no. Unless one happens to be a Goonie type. These days I completely avoid FFA full loot PvP games. They attract the wrong types of people, and I have no interest in playing moving target to such zealots.
I almost thought that was a informed opinion... until you said the word zealot... now I am wondering if one of these
Christ its getting to the point where I think CVA was a fluke in MMO terms (roleplayers, industrials, PVEers from EVE whom live in a sector of space they claim and defend viciously from invasions and raiders, their patch of 0.0 space is amongst the safest in the whole of EVE which isn't saying much but when you see PVEers gathering in mass to form pirate/ganker hunting parties you get the point of what people who fight for their rights can do). Less entitled demands of castrating MMO sandboxes to fit your warped demands on the medium and more fighting for your rights gents (and to repeat: I hate PVP XD but EVE is a good example of why PVP in a sandbox augments the experience, not takes away from it).
One thing here, though: Eve didnt' have full-loot.
It had what I would call 'full loss.' Most of the loot *blows up* before it gets into the looter's hands. This changes the behavioral incentives a fair bit compared to literal "full loot" systems. And also allows it to act as a wealth-sink rather than just a wealth-redistribution method.
Not everyone will take that incentive; some just want to blow shit up while others are doing their pew-pew in contexts where such things don't make much sense. But then they have to find other means of income to support their own losses when it's inevitably their turn to get blowed-up, which takes them out of the action for a bit themselves (either before to build a buffer, or after to rebuild.)
Excellent observation.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
More sandbox games have limited, or no pvp at all.
Even newer sandbox like AOW doesnt have full loot pvp. These misconceptions lead people down the wrong path and need to stop.
Newer games like Archeage wont have full loot either nor will several other sandbox style games coming out later on.
AoW is a sandpark by the developer's own admission -_-... take your own advice with misconceptions.
In that same vein Ascheron's Call is also classified as a sandpark by its characteristics ...........blah blah blah...........
No such thing as a sandpark or a hybrid.... -cue a couple of paragraphs of self-vindication with more opinions than facts and no proof stated-
Now if you want to talk on equal footing go check where the term sandbox originated and which MMOs shaped its definition (hint it ain't Ascheron's Moan or any of the craptastic open world grindfests you seem to dellude yourself into calling sandboxes).
Also fun fact: A themepark is not a limited sandbox, it doesn't even come from the same area, a sandbox has very little to no character progression, the in-game goals are so different as to beg the questions why even put them in the same room, the options of what you want to do is completely up to you (you could only see what the developers left in place, example: EVE Online's missioning, or you could see the plethora of services you could provide in the emergent gameplay experience, example from eve: being a black/red frog freighter pilot, running an investment bank, running a lottery, becoming a professional spy, becoming a assets thief, etc) whereas in open world/themepark games your options are drastically limited by classes/optimal skill builds, area available for housing, area available for sculpting, area available for crafting (if it allows husbandry or farming), etc,etc because again with no real FFA full loot (everything is lost but not everything can be looted) your worlds are static, once crap gets put down unless the guys owning it leave the game and the game has a gold sink via taxing (thus houses and whatnot get repoed) your world will never change beyond the first few weeks/months, ergo the games without strife are not sandboxes, they are at best sandparks, at worse themeparks with sandbox elements glued on without any real consideration or depth.
I couldn't find anything in that mess that really addressed his point. There's no such thing as a 'sandpark.' It's a term used by people who have binary views of MMOs and don't really understand how they work. Every MMO is a combination of at least two types of content. The three most common are Themepark, Sandbox and Social. The third one is taboo around here save for the requisite "Where's the community?!?!?!" threads that pop up during the first wqeek of every MMO release.
You'd be hard pressed to find many MMOs that aren't a combination of at least themepark and sandbox content, if not more.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
More sandbox games have limited, or no pvp at all.
Even newer sandbox like AOW doesnt have full loot pvp. These misconceptions lead people down the wrong path and need to stop.
Newer games like Archeage wont have full loot either nor will several other sandbox style games coming out later on.
AoW is a sandpark by the developer's own admission -_-... take your own advice with misconceptions.
In that same vein Ascheron's Call is also classified as a sandpark by its characteristics ...........blah blah blah...........
No such thing as a sandpark or a hybrid.... -cue a couple of paragraphs of self-vindication with more opinions than facts and no proof stated-
Now if you want to talk on equal footing go check where the term sandbox originated and which MMOs shaped its definition (hint it ain't Ascheron's Moan or any of the craptastic open world grindfests you seem to dellude yourself into calling sandboxes).
Also fun fact: A themepark is not a limited sandbox, it doesn't even come from the same area, a sandbox has very little to no character progression, the in-game goals are so different as to beg the questions why even put them in the same room, the options of what you want to do is completely up to you (you could only see what the developers left in place, example: EVE Online's missioning, or you could see the plethora of services you could provide in the emergent gameplay experience, example from eve: being a black/red frog freighter pilot, running an investment bank, running a lottery, becoming a professional spy, becoming a assets thief, etc) whereas in open world/themepark games your options are drastically limited by classes/optimal skill builds, area available for housing, area available for sculpting, area available for crafting (if it allows husbandry or farming), etc,etc because again with no real FFA full loot (everything is lost but not everything can be looted) your worlds are static, once crap gets put down unless the guys owning it leave the game and the game has a gold sink via taxing (thus houses and whatnot get repoed) your world will never change beyond the first few weeks/months, ergo the games without strife are not sandboxes, they are at best sandparks, at worse themeparks with sandbox elements glued on without any real consideration or depth.
I couldn't find anything in that mess that really addressed his point. There's no such thing as a 'sandpark.' It's a term used by people who have binary views of MMOs and don't really understand how they work. Every MMO is a combination of at least two types of content. The three most common are Themepark, Sandbox and Social. The third one is taboo around here save for the requisite "Where's the community?!?!?!" threads that pop up during the first wqeek of every MMO release.
You'd be hard pressed to find many MMOs that aren't a combination of at least themepark and sandbox content, if not more.
Since when do you split MMOs into 3 with the 3rd being a social MMO? All MMOs are supposed to be social games (Massively Multiplayer Online games) and you'd be hard pressed to justify that splitting o.O ( I mean what's a social heavy MMO? Second Life? O.o).
Hard pressed to find pure or at least close to pure sandbox games? really? because excluding tutorial "quests" the following have no themepark elements whatsoever: Entropia Universe, want another? Salem, need more? EVE-Online (you could make a case missions are quests but the analogy doesn't really work as quests in traditional themepark games serve to either a) progress a storyline, b)provide experience to help leveling or c) time sink (read dalies) and missions in EVE are completely optional whereas in themeparks you can't avoid them especially if it's a grindy themepark) and one more for the trip: Ultima Online pre-trammel (quests in it were optional with only monetary rewards, most people b-lined it for a tree and got to crafting arrows for gold).
And if you think only Salem's recent, those are the released ones, coming down the pipeline we have Albion, Trials of Ascension, Project Universe and Embers of Caerus (the first would be a true sandbox with everything in the game player based, the 2nd and 3rd if they ever get going properly will be sandbox titles as well, Project Universe being a civilization scale sandbox with the whole Earth up for people to get cracking in and before you ask: you start, as a community, in the neolitic and go up from there, and Embers of Caerus I'm tentatively gonna say is gonna be EVE-Online Medieval edition).
You'd be hard pressed to say Entropia or EVE-Online have themepark elements, even more so than justifying splitting social into its own MMO sub-genre (if you take that away you get...a single player game so to talk MMO is to assume social is in already).
More sandbox games have limited, or no pvp at all.
Even newer sandbox like AOW doesnt have full loot pvp. These misconceptions lead people down the wrong path and need to stop.
Newer games like Archeage wont have full loot either nor will several other sandbox style games coming out later on.
AoW is a sandpark by the developer's own admission -_-... take your own advice with misconceptions.
In that same vein Ascheron's Call is also classified as a sandpark by its characteristics ...........blah blah blah...........
No such thing as a sandpark or a hybrid.... -cue a couple of paragraphs of self-vindication with more opinions than facts and no proof stated-
Now if you want to talk on equal footing go check where the term sandbox originated and which MMOs shaped its definition (hint it ain't Ascheron's Moan or any of the craptastic open world grindfests you seem to dellude yourself into calling sandboxes).
Also fun fact: A themepark is not a limited sandbox, it doesn't even come from the same area, a sandbox has very little to no character progression, the in-game goals are so different as to beg the questions why even put them in the same room, the options of what you want to do is completely up to you (you could only see what the developers left in place, example: EVE Online's missioning, or you could see the plethora of services you could provide in the emergent gameplay experience, example from eve: being a black/red frog freighter pilot, running an investment bank, running a lottery, becoming a professional spy, becoming a assets thief, etc) whereas in open world/themepark games your options are drastically limited by classes/optimal skill builds, area available for housing, area available for sculpting, area available for crafting (if it allows husbandry or farming), etc,etc because again with no real FFA full loot (everything is lost but not everything can be looted) your worlds are static, once crap gets put down unless the guys owning it leave the game and the game has a gold sink via taxing (thus houses and whatnot get repoed) your world will never change beyond the first few weeks/months, ergo the games without strife are not sandboxes, they are at best sandparks, at worse themeparks with sandbox elements glued on without any real consideration or depth.
I couldn't find anything in that mess that really addressed his point. There's no such thing as a 'sandpark.' It's a term used by people who have binary views of MMOs and don't really understand how they work. Every MMO is a combination of at least two types of content. The three most common are Themepark, Sandbox and Social. The third one is taboo around here save for the requisite "Where's the community?!?!?!" threads that pop up during the first wqeek of every MMO release.
You'd be hard pressed to find many MMOs that aren't a combination of at least themepark and sandbox content, if not more.
Since when do you split MMOs into 3 with the 3rd being a social MMO? All MMOs are supposed to be social games (Massively Multiplayer Online games) and you'd be hard pressed to justify that splitting o.O ( I mean what's a social heavy MMO? Second Life? O.o).
I think you were being facetious with that, but technically it does qualify as MMO. (RPG is debatable, and one might even question whether calling it a 'game' is applicable, but those aren't essential to MMO; just traditionally associated to the term.)
You'd be hard pressed to say Entropia or EVE-Online have themepark elements, even more so than justifying splitting social into its own MMO sub-genre (if you take that away you get...a single player game so to talk MMO is to assume social is in already).
Meh. Lobby-games. Where the 'social' is external to the 'game.'
Well seem like most Sandbox developers dont want to go outside the box when it comes to PvP ruleset,
So my question is,
is there perhaps a way to make FFA Full Looting PvP fun instead of a griefest?
What if there was a benefit to not getting looted as well as when you get looted, so there could compensate and take the negative distress of FFA Full Loot and drop it.
What you feel could make FFA Full Loot gameplay more fun and less distressful?
make a sytem when players roam the gaming world and grade there actions by rewarding so if you don't get looted for day or week give hima title or even a nice reward for staying alive and not being looted.
Should offcorse not be to generous or nobody kill anymore becouse rewards for staying alive hehe so equal reward for killing reward both:)
Tech is there just implement good system where a player can be followed for his actions.
I think there should be a way to create a single, trapped item and keep in your inventory. That way, when whoever looted it from you goes to use/examine it, it blows up/tangles them up/makes them helpless for a few minutes. The premise would work regardless of whether the game has a user created emphasis, or Monty Hall loot.
Well seem like most Sandbox developers dont want to go outside the box when it comes to PvP ruleset,
So my question is,
is there perhaps a way to make FFA Full Looting PvP fun instead of a griefest?
What if there was a benefit to not getting looted as well as when you get looted, so there could compensate and take the negative distress of FFA Full Loot and drop it.
What you feel could make FFA Full Loot gameplay more fun and less distressful?
Well for me FFA Full loot PVP actually makes a game fun..
Running around knowing you could get jumped at any point and loose all your gear is just awesome and an MMORPG without it is jsut missing somthing in my books..
Well seem like most Sandbox developers dont want to go outside the box when it comes to PvP ruleset,
So my question is,
is there perhaps a way to make FFA Full Looting PvP fun instead of a griefest?
What if there was a benefit to not getting looted as well as when you get looted, so there could compensate and take the negative distress of FFA Full Loot and drop it.
What you feel could make FFA Full Loot gameplay more fun and less distressful?
I think a realistic weight/bag system would solve a lot of the problem.
You really cant beat up 5 knights and carrying all their stuff on you unless you are an elephant. Force the looters to choose carefully by limiting how much crap they can carry instead of using the unrealistic system from PvE themeparks and a lot of things would solve itself.
Being able to loot someone you killed is realistic but then how much you can carry should also be realistic.
Another thing that would make things easier for the looted is some kind of spell that allows you to summon armor parts and weapons from your bank, running around naked until you hit town is not that fun.
More sandbox games have limited, or no pvp at all.
Even newer sandbox like AOW doesnt have full loot pvp. These misconceptions lead people down the wrong path and need to stop.
Newer games like Archeage wont have full loot either nor will several other sandbox style games coming out later on.
AoW is a sandpark by the developer's own admission -_-... take your own advice with misconceptions.
In that same vein Ascheron's Call is also classified as a sandpark by its characteristics ...........blah blah blah...........
No such thing as a sandpark or a hybrid.... -cue a couple of paragraphs of self-vindication with more opinions than facts and no proof stated-
Now if you want to talk on equal footing go check where the term sandbox originated and which MMOs shaped its definition (hint it ain't Ascheron's Moan or any of the craptastic open world grindfests you seem to dellude yourself into calling sandboxes).
Also fun fact: A themepark is not a limited sandbox, it doesn't even come from the same area, a sandbox has very little to no character progression, the in-game goals are so different as to beg the questions why even put them in the same room, the options of what you want to do is completely up to you (you could only see what the developers left in place, example: EVE Online's missioning, or you could see the plethora of services you could provide in the emergent gameplay experience, example from eve: being a black/red frog freighter pilot, running an investment bank, running a lottery, becoming a professional spy, becoming a assets thief, etc) whereas in open world/themepark games your options are drastically limited by classes/optimal skill builds, area available for housing, area available for sculpting, area available for crafting (if it allows husbandry or farming), etc,etc because again with no real FFA full loot (everything is lost but not everything can be looted) your worlds are static, once crap gets put down unless the guys owning it leave the game and the game has a gold sink via taxing (thus houses and whatnot get repoed) your world will never change beyond the first few weeks/months, ergo the games without strife are not sandboxes, they are at best sandparks, at worse themeparks with sandbox elements glued on without any real consideration or depth.
I couldn't find anything in that mess that really addressed his point. There's no such thing as a 'sandpark.' It's a term used by people who have binary views of MMOs and don't really understand how they work. Every MMO is a combination of at least two types of content. The three most common are Themepark, Sandbox and Social. The third one is taboo around here save for the requisite "Where's the community?!?!?!" threads that pop up during the first wqeek of every MMO release.
You'd be hard pressed to find many MMOs that aren't a combination of at least themepark and sandbox content, if not more.
Since when do you split MMOs into 3 with the 3rd being a social MMO? All MMOs are supposed to be social games (Massively Multiplayer Online games) and you'd be hard pressed to justify that splitting o.O ( I mean what's a social heavy MMO? Second Life? O.o).
I think you were being facetious with that, but technically it does qualify as MMO. (RPG is debatable, and one might even question whether calling it a 'game' is applicable, but those aren't essential to MMO; just traditionally associated to the term.)
You'd be hard pressed to say Entropia or EVE-Online have themepark elements, even more so than justifying splitting social into its own MMO sub-genre (if you take that away you get...a single player game so to talk MMO is to assume social is in already).
Meh. Lobby-games. Where the 'social' is external to the 'game.'
Second life is a virtual world ^^ not an MMO.
And as for Lobby-games being non-social... that's as opinion based as you can get really because a lobby based game would be more social than a massively multiplayer one (take world of tanks for example, without platoon mates 6-7 out of 10 games are not gonna be fun at all, read: lemmings) because you depend on others more than in a massive persistent world common of themepark games.
The division between Sandboxes and Themepark games is quite clear, if you wanna keep discussing how they both share certain basic elements due to their MMO natures I could continue pointing out key differences in their basic construction beyond the fundamentals and how saying that they share traits beyond those which are at the very base of the MMO genre is a fallacy ergo the terms "Sandpark" is valid because it denotes a true hybrid (archeage as the popular example by what I've heard has a themepark-esque grind to level cap, level cap being another themepark element mind you, which then opens up to a more "sandboxy" late/end game, ergo this is not a sandbox as it lack true freedom of choice nor is it a themepark as it lacks, by what I've heard, the traditional gear grinds).
I find the system lots of fun. Like a previous post said, in Ultima there weren't new gear sets every patch or dungeon sets that would make you want to die if you lost them. Pretty much everything is craftable in most sandboxes. In UO you kept backup sets in the bank. Even if you lost them all you could always make or buy some more. If you have friends or a guild in game this isn't very hard to maintain. You *gasp* rely on eachother.
Gear won't but money would because unless you go for a barter system you'd still need money. The one way to fix this issue (I assume you refer to people being able to loot your corpse of money as well) is basically either have an EVE money system (money in that game has no real form) or some hybrid of it (say you get gold/credits/whatnot, it's in your inventory but once you take it to the bank it gets transfered into your account such that then you just deal with transfers, you could still lose the money on the way to the bank but afterwards it would be safe).
It wont work when you loot good gear like in games like EQ and Wow but with easy to craft gear that more or less have a standard stat (so that most if not all chainmails have a certain stat) it works as long as you limit how much people can carry to a realistic weight.
It certainly wont work when you spend all your time to get better and better gear, but if you base the game on old P&Ps like Runequest, Warhammer or Vampire instead of D&D its a lot less bad to get looted.
It all depends on the focus of the game, if most of your character is about stat instead of gear things are very different than in games where you mainly advance by getting better gear.
I played P&P roleplaying campaigns for years without changing any of my gear while in others I change all the time, it depends on the mechanics of the game.
More sandbox games have limited, or no pvp at all.
Even newer sandbox like AOW doesnt have full loot pvp. These misconceptions lead people down the wrong path and need to stop.
Newer games like Archeage wont have full loot either nor will several other sandbox style games coming out later on.
AoW is a sandpark by the developer's own admission -_-... take your own advice with misconceptions.
In that same vein Ascheron's Call is also classified as a sandpark by its characteristics ...........blah blah blah...........
No such thing as a sandpark or a hybrid.... -cue a couple of paragraphs of self-vindication with more opinions than facts and no proof stated-
Now if you want to talk on equal footing go check where the term sandbox originated and which MMOs shaped its definition (hint it ain't Ascheron's Moan or any of the craptastic open world grindfests you seem to dellude yourself into calling sandboxes).
Also fun fact: A themepark is not a limited sandbox, it doesn't even come from the same area, a sandbox has very little to no character progression, the in-game goals are so different as to beg the questions why even put them in the same room, the options of what you want to do is completely up to you (you could only see what the developers left in place, example: EVE Online's missioning, or you could see the plethora of services you could provide in the emergent gameplay experience, example from eve: being a black/red frog freighter pilot, running an investment bank, running a lottery, becoming a professional spy, becoming a assets thief, etc) whereas in open world/themepark games your options are drastically limited by classes/optimal skill builds, area available for housing, area available for sculpting, area available for crafting (if it allows husbandry or farming), etc,etc because again with no real FFA full loot (everything is lost but not everything can be looted) your worlds are static, once crap gets put down unless the guys owning it leave the game and the game has a gold sink via taxing (thus houses and whatnot get repoed) your world will never change beyond the first few weeks/months, ergo the games without strife are not sandboxes, they are at best sandparks, at worse themeparks with sandbox elements glued on without any real consideration or depth.
I couldn't find anything in that mess that really addressed his point. There's no such thing as a 'sandpark.' It's a term used by people who have binary views of MMOs and don't really understand how they work. Every MMO is a combination of at least two types of content. The three most common are Themepark, Sandbox and Social. The third one is taboo around here save for the requisite "Where's the community?!?!?!" threads that pop up during the first wqeek of every MMO release.
You'd be hard pressed to find many MMOs that aren't a combination of at least themepark and sandbox content, if not more.
Since when do you split MMOs into 3 with the 3rd being a social MMO? All MMOs are supposed to be social games (Massively Multiplayer Online games) and you'd be hard pressed to justify that splitting o.O ( I mean what's a social heavy MMO? Second Life? O.o).
Hard pressed to find pure or at least close to pure sandbox games? really? because excluding tutorial "quests" the following have no themepark elements whatsoever: Entropia Universe, want another? Salem, need more? EVE-Online (you could make a case missions are quests but the analogy doesn't really work as quests in traditional themepark games serve to either a) progress a storyline, b)provide experience to help leveling or c) time sink (read dalies) and missions in EVE are completely optional whereas in themeparks you can't avoid them especially if it's a grindy themepark) and one more for the trip: Ultima Online pre-trammel (quests in it were optional with only monetary rewards, most people b-lined it for a tree and got to crafting arrows for gold).
And if you think only Salem's recent, those are the released ones, coming down the pipeline we have Albion, Trials of Ascension, Project Universe and Embers of Caerus (the first would be a true sandbox with everything in the game player based, the 2nd and 3rd if they ever get going properly will be sandbox titles as well, Project Universe being a civilization scale sandbox with the whole Earth up for people to get cracking in and before you ask: you start, as a community, in the neolitic and go up from there, and Embers of Caerus I'm tentatively gonna say is gonna be EVE-Online Medieval edition).
You'd be hard pressed to say Entropia or EVE-Online have themepark elements, even more so than justifying splitting social into its own MMO sub-genre (if you take that away you get...a single player game so to talk MMO is to assume social is in already).
Ok, they're getting longer and less relevant each time, so this is the last one I'm replying to.
"Since when do you split MMOs into 3 with the 3rd being a social MMO?"
I don't. I explained that MMOs are not solely one type of content; they are a combination of multiple types. You respond with an argument about social MMOs, three sub-genres, something about Salem and then give a list of games that don't exist yet to try to prove your point.
/slowclap
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Comments
Interestingly enough EvE doesn't have full looting, it's random, but look at a 50% chance of a drop.
HTH
I sometimes make spelling and grammar errors but I don't pretend it's because I'm using a phone
No such thing as a sandpark or a hybrid. Those terms are only used by people that do not know the difference and similar aspects of each style. They use such words to make it sound better for themselves. In actuality, its still a sandbox. But many here never played one or played a game outside the normal cookie-cutter wow clone to know the difference. Including most the developers that have created these monsterous things they are releasing as mmorpg's today.
Sandbox does everything, a themepark limits everything. You can not sit there and say something is a sandpark because it has quests and a story because every freaking sandbox has quests and story either via personal story ot developer created story. Its just not handed to you on a silver platter like themeparks. There is nothing a themepark has or hasnt done that a sandbox hasnt already done. Thus you can not say its a hybrid, because in simplest form its still a sandbox. Sandbox games incoorporate everything into the game via by players or developers, themeparks limit everything. Calling a sandbox a sandpark is an insult.
Where does it say sandbox can not have quests? Every sandbox i have played has had quests. Does not say anywhere that a sandbox can not have levels or classes either. Only misconception here is you have no clue what a sandbox is.
Exactly, only problem is with most of today's masses of gamers it brings in too much thought into play, preparation? what's that, I "= they" want it all and want it now. Unfortunaly we can't blame them cause many where introduced by games of that nature when internet became more mainstream.
On Topic: I still feel FFA Full Loot has it's place in a mmorpg, but as said many times only if it's optional, that too me is the only way it can be fun. In a MMORPG gamers want to get to know the game, the world, the feature's/mechanics, the lore/story. Some will pursue just that, some will seek other forms like PVP. Of course the "I want it all and want it now" will start complaining that pvp s%cks as no one is playing it. A MMORPG player will or should understand that things in a MMORPG should/could take time.
Fixed...in my opinion
So what you are saying is you think sandboxes do not have freedom, choice, tons of features, and optional game mechanics to allow players to create content to prolong the fun and longevity of a sandbox? Because all the new themepark games are #1 in sales, subs, and last for decades right? Because themeparks just offer so many features and never ending story to keep its player base going for years right?
Because if that is what you are saying.........................
As long as gear is easily replaceable i'm fine with it. Eve Online, and perhaps Mortal online being good examples of how I think FFA looting should work. The game probably shouldn't have traditional levels either, if you've played Tera/any recent open world pvp game, you know high levels will just run around ganking lowbies who can't fight back.
While I enjoyed the game, I did not like the way it was done in Lineage 2 as an example. Back at release I've had situations in which i've had to completely scrap a character and start over because some maxed out player took a pair of weapons that I could not afford to replace, not even with something out of the vendor due to the insanely high price of everything.
Now if you want to talk on equal footing go check where the term sandbox originated and which MMOs shaped its definition (hint it ain't Ascheron's Moan or any of the craptastic open world grindfests you seem to dellude yourself into calling sandboxes).
Also fun fact: A themepark is not a limited sandbox, it doesn't even come from the same area, a sandbox has very little to no character progression, the in-game goals are so different as to beg the questions why even put them in the same room, the options of what you want to do is completely up to you (you could only see what the developers left in place, example: EVE Online's missioning, or you could see the plethora of services you could provide in the emergent gameplay experience, example from eve: being a black/red frog freighter pilot, running an investment bank, running a lottery, becoming a professional spy, becoming a assets thief, etc) whereas in open world/themepark games your options are drastically limited by classes/optimal skill builds, area available for housing, area available for sculpting, area available for crafting (if it allows husbandry or farming), etc,etc because again with no real FFA full loot (everything is lost but not everything can be looted) your worlds are static, once crap gets put down unless the guys owning it leave the game and the game has a gold sink via taxing (thus houses and whatnot get repoed) your world will never change beyond the first few weeks/months, ergo the games without strife are not sandboxes, they are at best sandparks, at worse themeparks with sandbox elements glued on without any real consideration or depth.
huh, perhaps try and read again what's behind sandbox =/=
I almost thought that was a informed opinion... until you said the word zealot... now I am wondering if one of these
made you love goonies so much XD.
Excellent observation.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
I couldn't find anything in that mess that really addressed his point. There's no such thing as a 'sandpark.' It's a term used by people who have binary views of MMOs and don't really understand how they work. Every MMO is a combination of at least two types of content. The three most common are Themepark, Sandbox and Social. The third one is taboo around here save for the requisite "Where's the community?!?!?!" threads that pop up during the first wqeek of every MMO release.
You'd be hard pressed to find many MMOs that aren't a combination of at least themepark and sandbox content, if not more.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Since when do you split MMOs into 3 with the 3rd being a social MMO? All MMOs are supposed to be social games (Massively Multiplayer Online games) and you'd be hard pressed to justify that splitting o.O ( I mean what's a social heavy MMO? Second Life? O.o).
Hard pressed to find pure or at least close to pure sandbox games? really? because excluding tutorial "quests" the following have no themepark elements whatsoever: Entropia Universe, want another? Salem, need more? EVE-Online (you could make a case missions are quests but the analogy doesn't really work as quests in traditional themepark games serve to either a) progress a storyline, b)provide experience to help leveling or c) time sink (read dalies) and missions in EVE are completely optional whereas in themeparks you can't avoid them especially if it's a grindy themepark) and one more for the trip: Ultima Online pre-trammel (quests in it were optional with only monetary rewards, most people b-lined it for a tree and got to crafting arrows for gold).
And if you think only Salem's recent, those are the released ones, coming down the pipeline we have Albion, Trials of Ascension, Project Universe and Embers of Caerus (the first would be a true sandbox with everything in the game player based, the 2nd and 3rd if they ever get going properly will be sandbox titles as well, Project Universe being a civilization scale sandbox with the whole Earth up for people to get cracking in and before you ask: you start, as a community, in the neolitic and go up from there, and Embers of Caerus I'm tentatively gonna say is gonna be EVE-Online Medieval edition).
You'd be hard pressed to say Entropia or EVE-Online have themepark elements, even more so than justifying splitting social into its own MMO sub-genre (if you take that away you get...a single player game so to talk MMO is to assume social is in already).
I think you were being facetious with that, but technically it does qualify as MMO. (RPG is debatable, and one might even question whether calling it a 'game' is applicable, but those aren't essential to MMO; just traditionally associated to the term.)
Meh. Lobby-games. Where the 'social' is external to the 'game.'
make a sytem when players roam the gaming world and grade there actions by rewarding so if you don't get looted for day or week give hima title or even a nice reward for staying alive and not being looted.
Should offcorse not be to generous or nobody kill anymore becouse rewards for staying alive hehe so equal reward for killing reward both:)
Tech is there just implement good system where a player can be followed for his actions.
Well for me FFA Full loot PVP actually makes a game fun..
Running around knowing you could get jumped at any point and loose all your gear is just awesome and an MMORPG without it is jsut missing somthing in my books..
I think a realistic weight/bag system would solve a lot of the problem.
You really cant beat up 5 knights and carrying all their stuff on you unless you are an elephant. Force the looters to choose carefully by limiting how much crap they can carry instead of using the unrealistic system from PvE themeparks and a lot of things would solve itself.
Being able to loot someone you killed is realistic but then how much you can carry should also be realistic.
Another thing that would make things easier for the looted is some kind of spell that allows you to summon armor parts and weapons from your bank, running around naked until you hit town is not that fun.
Second life is a virtual world ^^ not an MMO.
And as for Lobby-games being non-social... that's as opinion based as you can get really because a lobby based game would be more social than a massively multiplayer one (take world of tanks for example, without platoon mates 6-7 out of 10 games are not gonna be fun at all, read: lemmings) because you depend on others more than in a massive persistent world common of themepark games.
The division between Sandboxes and Themepark games is quite clear, if you wanna keep discussing how they both share certain basic elements due to their MMO natures I could continue pointing out key differences in their basic construction beyond the fundamentals and how saying that they share traits beyond those which are at the very base of the MMO genre is a fallacy ergo the terms "Sandpark" is valid because it denotes a true hybrid (archeage as the popular example by what I've heard has a themepark-esque grind to level cap, level cap being another themepark element mind you, which then opens up to a more "sandboxy" late/end game, ergo this is not a sandbox as it lack true freedom of choice nor is it a themepark as it lacks, by what I've heard, the traditional gear grinds).
Whilst gear or money mean ANYTHING AT ALL....
No!
http://thewordiz.wordpress.com/
Gear won't but money would because unless you go for a barter system you'd still need money. The one way to fix this issue (I assume you refer to people being able to loot your corpse of money as well) is basically either have an EVE money system (money in that game has no real form) or some hybrid of it (say you get gold/credits/whatnot, it's in your inventory but once you take it to the bank it gets transfered into your account such that then you just deal with transfers, you could still lose the money on the way to the bank but afterwards it would be safe).
That is simplifying things.
It wont work when you loot good gear like in games like EQ and Wow but with easy to craft gear that more or less have a standard stat (so that most if not all chainmails have a certain stat) it works as long as you limit how much people can carry to a realistic weight.
It certainly wont work when you spend all your time to get better and better gear, but if you base the game on old P&Ps like Runequest, Warhammer or Vampire instead of D&D its a lot less bad to get looted.
It all depends on the focus of the game, if most of your character is about stat instead of gear things are very different than in games where you mainly advance by getting better gear.
I played P&P roleplaying campaigns for years without changing any of my gear while in others I change all the time, it depends on the mechanics of the game.
Ok, they're getting longer and less relevant each time, so this is the last one I'm replying to.
"Since when do you split MMOs into 3 with the 3rd being a social MMO?"
I don't. I explained that MMOs are not solely one type of content; they are a combination of multiple types. You respond with an argument about social MMOs, three sub-genres, something about Salem and then give a list of games that don't exist yet to try to prove your point.
/slowclap
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre