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If you don't like the holy trinity, come up with something better.

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  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,666Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
     1) there are other ways to reach that goal

     

    Like I said, I am willing to hear alternatives if they are feasable. Which PVE alternative to the holy trinity do you propose?

    One that does not result in a zergfest.

    We've already given you several. You evidently don't really want them.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,273Member
    Originally posted by jtcgs

     Incorrect again, due to lack of experience.

    Do you ACTUALLY believe that people didnt group in UO or AC!?!? how about EvE?  lol...you have no ground to stand on.

    I played EQ for 8 years, don't think lack of experience is the issue here.

    EVE and UO are PVP games, I'm not interested in PVP.

    As far as your community in EVE or UO, the few videos I saw on Youtube of EVE explained others how to hack so you didn't have to play the game, and the video of UO showed how you could get inside someone's house by bribing him for the key stealing everything he owned, if that's your idea of great communities I'll think I'll pass.

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,273Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
     1) there are other ways to reach that goal

     

    Like I said, I am willing to hear alternatives if they are feasable. Which PVE alternative to the holy trinity do you propose?

    One that does not result in a zergfest.

    We've already given you several. You evidently don't really want them.

    You mentioned EVE and UO, what in the world do these games have to do with  high-fantasy PVE games like EQ, Rift, Vanguard? EVE is a space sim last I checked.

    Give me a reasonable example.

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by jtcgs

     Incorrect again, due to lack of experience.

    Do you ACTUALLY believe that people didnt group in UO or AC!?!? how about EvE?  lol...you have no ground to stand on.

    I played EQ for 8 years, don't think lack of experience is the issue here.

    EVE and UO are PVP games, I'm not interested in PVP.

    As far as your community in EVE or UO, the few videos I saw on Youtube of EVE explained others how to hack so you didn't have to play the game, and the video of UO showed how you could get inside someone's house by bribing him for the key stealing everything he owned, if that's your idea of great communities I'll think I'll pass.

     Your playing EQ for 8 years gives you an 8 year gap not experiencing games that did not have the trinity. Which is why you sound like you have no idea what you are talking about, because you dont.

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,273Member
    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by jtcgs

     Incorrect again, due to lack of experience.

    Do you ACTUALLY believe that people didnt group in UO or AC!?!? how about EvE?  lol...you have no ground to stand on.

    I played EQ for 8 years, don't think lack of experience is the issue here.

    EVE and UO are PVP games, I'm not interested in PVP.

    As far as your community in EVE or UO, the few videos I saw on Youtube of EVE explained others how to hack so you didn't have to play the game, and the video of UO showed how you could get inside someone's house by bribing him for the key stealing everything he owned, if that's your idea of great communities I'll think I'll pass.

     Your playing EQ for 8 years gives you an 8 year gap not experiencing games that did not have the trinity. Which is why you sound like you have no idea what you are talking about, because you dont.

    Ok which PVE games are you talking about then, and I do mean PVE, since the holy trinity has nothing to do with PVP.

    PVP space-sism and PVP don't count.

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
     1) there are other ways to reach that goal

     

    Like I said, I am willing to hear alternatives if they are feasable. Which PVE alternative to the holy trinity do you propose?

    One that does not result in a zergfest.

    We've already given you several. You evidently don't really want them.

    You mentioned EVE and UO, what in the world do these games have to do with  high-fantasy PVE games like EQ, Rift, Vanguard? EVE is a space sim last I checked.

    Give me a reasonable example.

     1. UO became PvE with Trammel that brought a consensual PvP rule.

    2. Asherons Call was given as a prime example, one that you ignored. He is right, you dont want to hear anything that conflicts with your limited view of the MMO world.

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • AntiquatedAntiquated Oak Brook, MIPosts: 673Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by austriacus
    Originally posted by Antiquated
    Originally posted by Eir_S

    play what YOU like instead of trying to force what you like on everyone else.

    Is it possible to allow other people to be enjoy happiness, if we're miserable?

    If you are being miserable because games dont wana cater to you then you need to seek profesional help. Or play WoW.

    Or, sarcasm eludes you.

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,273Member
    Originally posted by jtcgs

    2. Asherons Call was given as a prime example, one that you ignored. He is right, you dont want to hear anything that conflicts with your limited view of the MMO world.

    Ok, I never played it, how did AC force you to group in PVE without the trinity?

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon

    Looks at the OP

    "I see some people complain about the holy trinity.

    That's fine, but realise that the holy trinity from Everquest, which was based on D&D, created one of the most successful MMO communities ever, a community that grouped and was much stronger than the fast-paced action games we see now.

    So people who say

    "the trinity is boring, we need something new"

    That's great, but unless you are able to offer something as compelling as the trinity then I'll remain playing games with a trinity.

    Don't fix what isn't broken.

    edit:

    I need to add this for people who didn't play EQ, people mistakingly say EQ didn't use trinities even though EQ coined the phrase.

    EQ's trinity was warrior, cleric, enchanter. This is where the name comes from. It referred to 3 classes that were extremely powerful in a number of expansions and ended up as preferral classes, a trinity." "

    Nothing in there about it being pve or pvp, or fantasy or space.

    You are just adding qualifiers.  Thats 2 you've added now.  If you have enough qualifiers you will be right.  People have mentioned at least 2 games where a trinity is not used.  Here is another, SWG did not have the classic trinity, yes you could build it if you wanted to but it wasn't necessary.  FE does not have a trinity.  Istaria which is a high fantasy does not have a specific trinity, yes you can build one there are tanks, healers and dps, however with the multiclass system you can be whatever you want.  CoH had more than the trinity and let you customize it as well, there were tanks, healers and dps however there was no optimal build, a cc with dps and a kinetic would own. 

    EQ's trinity was tank (warrior, sk, paly), dps (Rogue/druid/ranger/mage/beast/sk/necro), healer (shaman/druid/cleric) plus cc and buffer for 2 other roles.

    And to all those from this or other threads that say roles make more complex decisons and encounters that is a bit odd.  Since not having a role requires at least one more decision when you get into an encounter, that being how you are going to play in a group.  That decision is completely removed when you have roles, how you play is allready defined.  Everything else can be exactly the same. 

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by jtcgs

    2. Asherons Call was given as a prime example, one that you ignored. He is right, you dont want to hear anything that conflicts with your limited view of the MMO world.

    Ok, I never played it, how did AC force you to group in PVE without the trinity?

     It didnt FORCE, and THAT IS THE POINT.

    We grouped because we WANTED TO PLAY WITH EACH OTHER. Because it was FUN. Because we had a COMMON GOAL.

    Taadaa!

    The Holy Trinity is a handicap.

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • endgame1endgame1 Chapel Hill, NCPosts: 84Member

    Already been said, but it apparently needs repeating, DnD didn't have a holy trinity. 

    DnD healing consisted of...

     

    Armor of healing, (belt of healing)

    Weapons of healing, (wand of vigor, staff of healing)

    Healing scrolls

    Healing potions

    Bandages

    NPC's/Hirelings that could heal you

    Wizards had spells that could heal, (vampiric touch)

    etc., etc., etc.,

     

    Never had to skip a dungeon/encounter in DnD because Bob the healer didn't show up, (clerics and paladins were more offensive damage dealers anyway). This goes for the highest level modules/dungeons available. Didn't need a dedicated meat shield (tank) either. 

     

     

     

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,273Member
    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by jtcgs

    2. Asherons Call was given as a prime example, one that you ignored. He is right, you dont want to hear anything that conflicts with your limited view of the MMO world.

    Ok, I never played it, how did AC force you to group in PVE without the trinity?

     It didnt FORCE, and THAT IS THE POINT.

    We grouped because we WANTED TO PLAY WITH EACH OTHER. Because it was FUN. Because we had a COMMON GOAL.

    Taadaa!

    The Holy Trinity is a handicap.

    Well, that's not really what I asked, give me a reasonable alternative.

    "we group because it's fun" is not a reasonable aternative to the trinity

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,273Member
    Originally posted by endgame1

    Already been said, but it apparently needs repeating, DnD didn't have a holy trinity. 

    DnD healing consisted of...

     

    Armor of healing, (belt of healing)

    Weapons of healing, (wand of vigor, staff of healing)

    Healing scrolls

    Healing potions

    Bandages

    NPC's/Hirelings that could heal you

    Wizards had spells that could heal, (vampiric touch)

    etc., etc., etc.,

     

    Never had to skip a dungeon/encounter in DnD because Bob the healer didn't show up, (clerics and paladins were more offensive damage dealers anyway). This goes for the highest level modules/dungeons available. Didn't need a dedicated meat shield (tank) either. 

     

     

     

    I never said D&D used a trinity, I should change my sentence structure if people don't understand it.

    I said:

    "Everquest, which was based on D&D"

    I was referring to the classes I detailed later on.

  • endgame1endgame1 Chapel Hill, NCPosts: 84Member
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by endgame1

    Already been said, but it apparently needs repeating, DnD didn't have a holy trinity. 

    DnD healing consisted of...

     

    Armor of healing, (belt of healing)

    Weapons of healing, (wand of vigor, staff of healing)

    Healing scrolls

    Healing potions

    Bandages

    NPC's/Hirelings that could heal you

    Wizards had spells that could heal, (vampiric touch)

    etc., etc., etc.,

     

    Never had to skip a dungeon/encounter in DnD because Bob the healer didn't show up, (clerics and paladins were more offensive damage dealers anyway). This goes for the highest level modules/dungeons available. Didn't need a dedicated meat shield (tank) either. 

     

     

     

    I never said D&D used a trinity.

    Your OP strongly intimates it.

    You're asking for something better, when there was something better 30+ years ago.

  • AntiquatedAntiquated Oak Brook, MIPosts: 673Member Uncommon

    I miss (de)buffers, controllers. Hell, even "pullers" and "speed toons".

    What's your favorite non-Blizzard-approved lost role?

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by jtcgs

    2. Asherons Call was given as a prime example, one that you ignored. He is right, you dont want to hear anything that conflicts with your limited view of the MMO world.

    Ok, I never played it, how did AC force you to group in PVE without the trinity?

     It didnt FORCE, and THAT IS THE POINT.

    We grouped because we WANTED TO PLAY WITH EACH OTHER. Because it was FUN. Because we had a COMMON GOAL.

    Taadaa!

    The Holy Trinity is a handicap.

    Well, that's not really what I asked, give me a reasonable alternative.

    "we group because it's fun" is not a reasonable aternative to the trinity

     Yep, thats what I thought.

    Your argument is based on nothing tangable. We had no trinity, we didnt NEED a reason to group for anything other than being in fun company...does that make you a sad panda? It should, cause you were being FORCED to play with others by bad game design.

    Please, allow me to HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA@you for 8 years of being forced to play with others you may not have even liked!

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,273Member
    Originally posted by jtcgs

     Yep, thats what I thought.

    Your argument is based on nothing tangable. We had no trinity, we didnt NEED a reason to group for anything other than being in fun company...does that make you a sad panda? It should, cause you were being FORCED to play with others by bad game design.

    Please, allow me to HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA@you for 8 years of being forced to play with others you may not have even liked!

    Ok, explain asheron's call grouping to me then if it's so much better.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by jtcgs

    2. Asherons Call was given as a prime example, one that you ignored. He is right, you dont want to hear anything that conflicts with your limited view of the MMO world.

    Ok, I never played it, how did AC force you to group in PVE without the trinity?

     It didnt FORCE, and THAT IS THE POINT.

    We grouped because we WANTED TO PLAY WITH EACH OTHER. Because it was FUN. Because we had a COMMON GOAL.

    Taadaa!

    The Holy Trinity is a handicap.

    Well, that's not really what I asked, give me a reasonable alternative.

    "we group because it's fun" is not a reasonable aternative to the trinity

     why not.  Seems reasonable to me.  There was nothing to force them to group, they just did it because it was fun. 

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,273Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

     why not.  Seems reasonable to me.  There was nothing to force them to group, they just did it because it was fun. 

    ok so what was grouping in asheron's call needed for?

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by jtcgs

    2. Asherons Call was given as a prime example, one that you ignored. He is right, you dont want to hear anything that conflicts with your limited view of the MMO world.

    Ok, I never played it, how did AC force you to group in PVE without the trinity?

     It didnt FORCE, and THAT IS THE POINT.

    We grouped because we WANTED TO PLAY WITH EACH OTHER. Because it was FUN. Because we had a COMMON GOAL.

    Taadaa!

    The Holy Trinity is a handicap.

    Well, that's not really what I asked, give me a reasonable alternative.

    "we group because it's fun" is not a reasonable aternative to the trinity

    You are mixing a LOT of different topics into the issue with the trinity. The trinity has nothing to do w/ PvE, PvP, or why you play a game.

    All the trinity is, is a specific class dymanic engineered to simplify combat. That being of a tank, healer, and dps. There are alternatives, and pleanty have been given. There are trinity PvP games, just as there are non-trinity PvE games. The trinity-based system also has absolutely nothing to do w/ Zerging. Zerging is a biproduct of herd mentallity, and you get zerging in any game with mass combat whether it has a trinity or not. The only real solution to 'zerging' is a combination of people being intelligent enough to avoid it, as well as a system balanced enough to provide practical counters to large groups.

    - The main issue with a trinity-based system, is that it forces people to play with others, because the vast majority of players don't like playing tanks or healers, yet you are reliant on both to play a trinity game. Furthermore, trinity games simplify combat to a very basic lvl. You have essentially 2 roles taking on the responsibility for the group, while the rest spam rotations. Some people like it, but it is flawed, and there are many other games out there that do things differently. Not only have people in this thread provided MMO examples, but there are other games that have already solved this problem outside of the MMO-sphere that haven't been adopted yet.

    You can't ask for alternatives, and then refuse to accept them at the same time. That just doesn't make any sense. Lately I've been enjoying GW2, but before there was EvE, plus you have the various FPS MMOs out now that don't rely on a trinity. Which doesn't get into the various other, more traditional MMOs like AC that solved this problem already. None of them are inherently zergy, unless you allow them to be (they leave the choice up to the player), which I don't think is a bad thing.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

     why not.  Seems reasonable to me.  There was nothing to force them to group, they just did it because it was fun. 

    ok so what was grouping in asheron's call needed for?

     I never played AC so I couldn't tell you if it was better (subjective anyway), or what they did but IMO any game that has it be just for fun is already ahead of the curve.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,273Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

     why not.  Seems reasonable to me.  There was nothing to force them to group, they just did it because it was fun. 

    ok so what was grouping in asheron's call needed for?

     I never played AC so I couldn't tell you if it was better (subjective anyway), or what they did but IMO any game that has it be just for fun is already ahead of the curve.

    Oh, you haven't played AC but supporting him saying AC is better and replaces the trinity.

    So we'll hear from him explaining why AC grouping was better. Unless you're telling me he is lying and never played it either.

  • TorcipTorcip Sterling Heights, MIPosts: 669Member

    My biggest issue with the holy trinity has always been the sure moronic stupidity that is threat generation. The easiest way to make tanks viable in PvP and keep your "Holy Trinity" is to do away with the PoS system that is threath generation and have the tank use more innovative ways of keeping the damage off of the squishes.  League of Legends and other MOBAS are great examples of tanks that work in PvP. Pulls, stuns, dazes, silences, damage mitigations, shields, knockbacks.  This is how you can fix the Holy Trinity.

     

    TO fix the forced grouping mechanic of needing a healer and a tank to get anything done, it's simple. Allow every class the ability to work as healers and tanks if they spec they're characters that way.  RIFT was pretty good at this. The 4 archetypes all had at least one way to dps, tank, and heal.  Maybe not as effectively as others but if they played well, they good get it done. An important part of this is allwoing you to switch builds and not be heavily item dependant.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

     why not.  Seems reasonable to me.  There was nothing to force them to group, they just did it because it was fun. 

    ok so what was grouping in asheron's call needed for?

     I never played AC so I couldn't tell you if it was better (subjective anyway), or what they did but IMO any game that has it be just for fun is already ahead of the curve.

    Ok, so you haven't played AC but supporting him saying AC is better and replaces the trinity.

    So we'll hear from him explaining why AC grouping was better. Unless you're telling me he is lying and never played it either.

     Um no.  I didn't say it was better, I said why not, as in why isn't that a reasonable alternative. 

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by jtcgs

     Yep, thats what I thought.

    Your argument is based on nothing tangable. We had no trinity, we didnt NEED a reason to group for anything other than being in fun company...does that make you a sad panda? It should, cause you were being FORCED to play with others by bad game design.

    Please, allow me to HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA@you for 8 years of being forced to play with others you may not have even liked!

    Ok, explain asheron's call grouping to me then if it's so much better.

     I already did.

    We didnt "have to" group, we grouped because we had MORE FUN TOGETHER. Your MMO experience must be pretty sad if you never grouped with people just because its fun to play with them...gawd damn that sounds horrid...a lot like having to be told what your role is by some game developer 1000 miles away that you never met.

    Look, I dont actually expect you to understand. Its like GW2, so many people that thought they were leet, the uber doods, the best of the best, logged into that game and just plain couldnt figure it out. They had no definition and because of that, because someone wasnt HOLDING THEIR HAND, they had no idea what to actually do.

    There were too many choices. The very idea that they could DPS, heal, CC, tank...all on the same character...their heads filled with "WTF" and they SUCKED.

    I however can bunker elementalist 12+ mobs with several elites and walk away fine...I can throw a heal + a hot on my group while still CCing, dropping DoTs, sending in elementals to off tank and switch right back to heals...because my mind isnt trapped in the holy trinity box that some games tried to trap me in after I stopped playing AC1.

    I know I can throw a heal and someone if they need it and then switch right back to DPSing or tanking, yes, healing while tanking. Games without the trinity creates SMARTER players, the trinity creates players with few real skills outside of games that allow you to FACEROLL.

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

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