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Since FFA Full Looting is here to stay in Sandboxes, is there a way to perhaps make it fun?

24

Comments

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,641Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Apraxis
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by Abuz0r

    In these FFA loot games you don't get your gear from epic dungeon bosses.................

    Gear is easy to come by... the focus is on the combat and the battle, not on what you're wearing to it.

    Compared the loot more with clothes...... you're wearing clothes into the fight.  If someone takes your clothes, you can go back to your closet, get another shirt and pair of pants... when you win a fight, you take his shirt and pair of pants and put it in your closet.

    IMO it's a lot better because you don't spend countless hours trying to farm instances for the most epic gear so your gear can overpower your oponent even if you're bad at the game.

     

     

    Welcome to the new generation of loot PvP games... where what you actually loot has no value.... is that what you're saying?

    The why have full loot?

    I remember EQ1 having 1 item loot, which dosen't sound bad until you realise how  valuable to a player that 1 item was. *That* was a loot system worth having, because there was a real loss if you were beaten (with all the risk and fear that bnrings).

    Sounds like modern full loot PvPers want it to be pretty carebear...

    and yes high valuable items for player loot is inherent buggy, because withit you will discourage pvp altogehter.

    ...and (this* is why I am saying that modern PvPers seem to be pretty carebear...

    Because, as you are saying, they wouldn't PvP if they actually lost something of value ever.

    Seems that they want to posture like full loot badasses while actually minimising the actual loss the system requires to have any value.

    and Everquest was never really a pvp game. To bring pvp in a pve game as a afterthough is almost always a bad idea, and a very bad execution.

    Actually, Vallon Zek was an excellent and fun server for a long time, but that's beside the point.

    The point I am making with regards to EQ wasn't about anything but the reference to valuable loot being what makes full loot in these games worth having.

     

    What you posted seems like a whole lot of rationalisation for having no risk PvP in my eyes, while still the 'full loot'  PvPer gets to strut around as if they are somehow more hardcore.

     

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,649Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    The entire premise of your thread title is all wrong.  While there are some sandboxes that are free for all full loot PVP, there are plenty that aren't.

    Very happy to see someone say that on the first page. Not that the premise he builds on is false, as that is almost always the case for his threads, but that FFA Full Loot isn't in the majority of sandbox-style MMOs, let alone "here to stay."

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • HycooHycoo OsloPosts: 217Member

    A lot of interesting theory in the subject here: https://goblinworks.com/blog/

    Lets see how it turns out.

    image
  • Dexter2010Dexter2010 Beverly Hills, CAPosts: 244Member Common
    Originally posted by Rhonen

    I will simply not play any game that has FFA PvP Looting.  That will make me very happy indeed.  About the only thing that would make me happier is if the developers would just stop putting in any form of PvP in my PvE games.

    Ratero.

    This

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member

    I love how people say FFA full loot pvp isn't a core mechanic of sandbox games... hint people: without it you're in a open world game, you can do whatever except kill that douche that chain aggroed a pack of wolves onto your herd of domesticated animals. Sorry but no, to say sandbox without FFA PVP with full loot is a great idea is to say french fries go well with honey.

     

    Also to the guy who said EVE has restricted PVP might I suggest you undock from Jita 4/4 with 70 plexes in your cargohold and see how far you make it? PVP in EVE is unrestricted but it carries consequences (sec hit, bounty on your head, etc).

    image
  • ApraxisApraxis RegensburgPosts: 1,515Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by Apraxis
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by Abuz0r

    In these FFA loot games you don't get your gear from epic dungeon bosses.................

    Gear is easy to come by... the focus is on the combat and the battle, not on what you're wearing to it.

    Compared the loot more with clothes...... you're wearing clothes into the fight.  If someone takes your clothes, you can go back to your closet, get another shirt and pair of pants... when you win a fight, you take his shirt and pair of pants and put it in your closet.

    IMO it's a lot better because you don't spend countless hours trying to farm instances for the most epic gear so your gear can overpower your oponent even if you're bad at the game.

     

     

    Welcome to the new generation of loot PvP games... where what you actually loot has no value.... is that what you're saying?

    The why have full loot?

    I remember EQ1 having 1 item loot, which dosen't sound bad until you realise how  valuable to a player that 1 item was. *That* was a loot system worth having, because there was a real loss if you were beaten (with all the risk and fear that bnrings).

    Sounds like modern full loot PvPers want it to be pretty carebear...

    and yes high valuable items for player loot is inherent buggy, because withit you will discourage pvp altogehter.

    ...and (this* is why I am saying that modern PvPers seem to be pretty carebear...

    Because, as you are saying, they wouldn't PvP if they actually lost something of value ever.

    Seems that they want to posture like full loot badasses while actually minimising the actual loss the system requires to have any value.

    No, its not so much about the hardcore pvper.. they would most probably pvp naked. It is more about the normal player in such a game. And yes, if you lose month of work in one fight something is completely wrong with your balance of risk vs. reward. And in that case everyone would be ultra carefully, just run around in huge packs, just look for an unfair fight and so on and so forth. And running around naked is also not the best side effect.

    But as i said before, full loot is just a way to put in some risk vs, reward in a pvp fight, but it is even more important about the player economy, and about opening up a game for more gameplay options.

    Like robbing out a trading caravan, or like the counterpart of robbing, hiring security for your trading caravan, for thievery, for risk during gathering resources and put some value in those resources and that territory(fight over territory and resources). With other words full loot is just one features to support a lot of other gameplay elements. And if you ask me.. it is not even that important.

    Partial loot would be as good as full loot as long as every items will destroyed/decay after some time. (and better some short time, rather weeks than month) Because finally it is all about to create a high demand for crafted items. So they have to be destroyed in one way or the other.. but if you want to have features like that, and a feature like thievery you can make it full loot, too. Because then there will not be a big difference in it, as long as all crafted items, all worn items are seen as replaceable items with a balanced value. And items with a value worth of a few month just dont fit in well there. (and i dont even be able to imagine how to craft such a item, without magically introduce high valuable resources which drop extremely rarely, but they would be more or less the same as the magically rare item itself. And that is just very anti sandbox, it is much more Themeparkish)

    and Everquest was never really a pvp game. To bring pvp in a pve game as a afterthough is almost always a bad idea, and a very bad execution.

    Actually, Vallon Zek was an excellent and fun server for a long time, but that's beside the point.

    The point I am making with regards to EQ wasn't about anything but the reference to valuable loot being what makes full loot in these games worth having.

     

    What you posted seems like a whole lot of rationalisation for having no risk PvP in my eyes, while still the 'full loot'  PvPer gets to strut around as if they are somehow more hardcore.

     

     

  • ThorkuneThorkune Eastern, KYPosts: 1,828Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    Well seem like most Sandbox developers dont want to go outside the box when it comes to PvP ruleset,

     

    So my question is,

     

    is there perhaps a way to make FFA Full Looting PvP fun instead of a griefest?

     

    What if there was a benefit to not getting looted as well as when you get looted, so there could compensate and take the negative distress of FFA Full Loot and drop it.

     

    What you feel could make FFA Full Loot gameplay more fun and less distressful?

    Simple .. don't play any game that has it. It is not like there is a lack of other entertainment.

    This /

    This has always been my view on it as well. I hate forced PvP/FFA PvP of any kind, so I avoid games that have it....no biggie for me.

  • AeolynAeolyn Langley, BCPosts: 213Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rhonen

    I will simply not play any game that has FFA PvP Looting.  That will make me very happy indeed.  About the only thing that would make me happier is if the developers would just stop putting in any form of PvP in my PvE games.

    Ratero.

    Haha, I could have written that. 

    One solution for those who insist on full-loot pvp that may work(griefers would hate this) would be to tie it to how close you are in levels to your opponent somewhat like this:

    - opponent is 5 or more levels below you = no loot

    - opponent is lower but within 5 levels of you = 25% loot

    - opponent is same level as you = 50% loot

    - opponent is within 5 levels higher than you = 75% loot

    - opponent is 5 levels or more above you = 100% loot

    In group situations there would have to be some kind of averaging formula so that might be more difficult to pull off, or:

    - have a pvp toggle(not available for half an hour ingame time after killing another player)

    - have pvp servers or zones

    - only have full loot options when your faction/guild has declared war against another, then have it fall back to my above solution for levels.

       

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    Well seem like most Sandbox developers dont want to go outside the box when it comes to PvP ruleset,

     

    So my question is,

     

    is there perhaps a way to make FFA Full Looting PvP fun instead of a griefest?

     

    What if there was a benefit to not getting looted as well as when you get looted, so there could compensate and take the negative distress of FFA Full Loot and drop it.

     

    What you feel could make FFA Full Loot gameplay more fun and less distressful?

    Simple .. don't play any game that has it. It is not like there is a lack of other entertainment.

    not a lot of sandbox mmos have no FFA PvP. so pretty hard to avoid.

    Don't play sandbox MMOs then. It is not like they are your only entertainment option.

    On the same note, YOU could leave MMORPGs alone and go play Your lobby COOP cames instead of repeatedly calling for MMORPGs to become lobby based COOP games.

  • ThaneThane berlinPosts: 2,231Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rhonen

    I will simply not play any game that has FFA PvP Looting.  That will make me very happy indeed.  About the only thing that would make me happier is if the developers would just stop putting in any form of PvP in my PvE games.

    Ratero.

    gotta love the likes of you.

    playing a pve game, joining a pvp server and then crying the shit out of it when someone actually does pvp.

     

    seriously, name me one game that was a pve game and had pvp, but did not have dedicated pve/pvp servers.

     

     

    think before you play. it's that simple.

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • CalerxesCalerxes LondonPosts: 1,630Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Mavolence
    Much,much,much,much less emphasis on the importance of items. Back in UO i cared not when i got dry looted because the items were just not that important to me, i easily replaced them and had a house just full of stock piles that it took me a few minutes to get back re armor,arm,pot,aids and recall back into the fray kill and reloot both his and my own set i had just lost.

     

    Darkfall has zero emphasis on gear you can get gear very easily and players have it stockpiled, couple that with the fact of having universal banks its easy to get regeared. Same with reagents and stuff but the game was an exploiters and griefers paradise. Also UO had the problem so bad that they brought out completely new ruleset servers. The only solution to this problem I see is don't have it in your game if you want to have more than a niche playerbase or for players just don't play these types of games they attract the worst in the gaming world there is a reason why most MMO's are not FFA PvP based games.

    This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,649Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dihoru

    I love how people say FFA full loot pvp isn't a core mechanic of sandbox games... hint people: without it you're in a open world game, you can do whatever except kill that douche that chain aggroed a pack of wolves onto your herd of domesticated animals. Sorry but no, to say sandbox without FFA PVP with full loot is a great idea is to say french fries go well with honey.

    No one ever ganked me for my clay in ATITD. I'm not getting looted much in Free Realms, either.

     

    You're combining way too many differnt mechanics in that statement, as well.

    • PVP
    • FFA
    • full loot

    That combination is NOT a core mechanic of sandbox games. It's a very common combination, but definitely not a defining set of features.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • CalerxesCalerxes LondonPosts: 1,630Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    The sad thing is that this next generation of MMO sandboxes is that their apparent reliance on open world PvP as content will kill their wider appeal (specifically to the builders/ socialisers/ PvEers) and restrict them to a small niche. This will mean they will 'fail' in the eyes of the mainstream and it will be seen as sandbox has no market.

    It will be the open world PvP that kills the model ultimately, not the concept of sandbox play itself.

    But then, ofc, the themepark will be back in fashion by then so it won't matter anyhow.

     

     

    Blimey I agree with Vesavius. image

    This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,649Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Calerxes
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    The sad thing is that this next generation of MMO sandboxes is that their apparent reliance on open world PvP as content will kill their wider appeal (specifically to the builders/ socialisers/ PvEers) and restrict them to a small niche. This will mean they will 'fail' in the eyes of the mainstream and it will be seen as sandbox has no market.

    It will be the open world PvP that kills the model ultimately, not the concept of sandbox play itself.

    But then, ofc, the themepark will be back in fashion by then so it won't matter anyhow.

    Blimey I agree with Vesavius. image

    I agree, as well. The growing association between FFA Full loot and sandbox really hurts that aspect of MMOs.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • CalerxesCalerxes LondonPosts: 1,630Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Calerxes
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    The sad thing is that this next generation of MMO sandboxes is that their apparent reliance on open world PvP as content will kill their wider appeal (specifically to the builders/ socialisers/ PvEers) and restrict them to a small niche. This will mean they will 'fail' in the eyes of the mainstream and it will be seen as sandbox has no market.

    It will be the open world PvP that kills the model ultimately, not the concept of sandbox play itself.

    But then, ofc, the themepark will be back in fashion by then so it won't matter anyhow.

    Blimey I agree with Vesavius. image

    I agree, as well. The growing association between FFA Full loot and sandbox really hurts that aspect of MMOs.

     

    Its part of a bigger issue for me, if you have mecahnics in games that allow players to interfere with others players game time you will reduce your potential playerbase. This is a core aspect of sandbox gaming as I read it from many posters on here, things like OPvP, FFA PVP, territorial control, deep crafting systems, taming etc.. its just that some are more insidious than others and at the top you have FFA PvP. So dev's have a really hard task of balancing the various player driven tools that sandboxes require to make them work as the more freedom you give players the more exploits will be found. Its why I believe dev's have shied away from making UO/SWG style games they are just way to complicated to get right.

    This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  • Tyvolus4Tyvolus4 lincoln, NEPosts: 175Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    The entire premise of your thread title is all wrong.  While there are some sandboxes that are free for all full loot PVP, there are plenty that aren't.

    pretty much this.  hard to take this seriously when the whole point the OP is trying to make, doesnt even really exist.

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Dihoru

    I love how people say FFA full loot pvp isn't a core mechanic of sandbox games... hint people: without it you're in a open world game, you can do whatever except kill that douche that chain aggroed a pack of wolves onto your herd of domesticated animals. Sorry but no, to say sandbox without FFA PVP with full loot is a great idea is to say french fries go well with honey.

    No one ever ganked me for my clay in ATITD. I'm not getting looted much in Free Realms, either.

     

    You're combining way too many differnt mechanics in that statement, as well.

    • PVP
    • FFA
    • full loot

    That combination is NOT a core mechanic of sandbox games. It's a very common combination, but definitely not a defining set of features.

    It's a frigging sandbox, it is in the name, the choice to kill someone however, whenever you damn well please is right there and having no consequence to that event (IE no full loot drop) will actually spurr griefing along (the victim won't care and the victim's friends certainly won't, just a corpse run or res and that's it). The farther you go away from giving players choices the less the game is a sandbox and more an open world one. If PVEers, world builders, roleplayers, etc, want a place in an actual sandbox game let them fight for it if not then stop poluting the definition of a sandbox MMO game with the traits of a sandbox singleplayer game, they are different and if people want to spend time build, crafting, whatnot without risking pvp they have plenty of open world games to choose from in the MMO genre and quite a few epic singleplayer sandboxes (minecraft anyone?).

     

    Christ its getting to the point where I think CVA was a fluke in MMO terms (roleplayers, industrials, PVEers from EVE whom live in a sector of space they claim and defend viciously from invasions and raiders, their patch of 0.0 space is amongst the safest in the whole of EVE which isn't saying much but when you see PVEers gathering in mass to form pirate/ganker hunting parties you get the point of what people who fight for their rights can do). Less entitled demands of castrating MMO sandboxes to fit your warped demands on the medium and more fighting for your rights gents ;) (and to repeat: I hate PVP XD but EVE is a good example of why PVP in a sandbox augments the experience, not takes away from it).

    image
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by RefMinor
     

    On the same note, YOU could leave MMORPGs alone and go play Your lobby COOP cames instead of repeatedly calling for MMORPGs to become lobby based COOP games.

    For your information, MMORPGs are ALREADY lobby co-op games. Otherwise, why do you think i am here?

  • KaosProphetKaosProphet Edmonton, ABPosts: 379Member
    Originally posted by Dihoru

    Christ its getting to the point where I think CVA was a fluke in MMO terms (roleplayers, industrials, PVEers from EVE whom live in a sector of space they claim and defend viciously from invasions and raiders, their patch of 0.0 space is amongst the safest in the whole of EVE which isn't saying much but when you see PVEers gathering in mass to form pirate/ganker hunting parties you get the point of what people who fight for their rights can do). Less entitled demands of castrating MMO sandboxes to fit your warped demands on the medium and more fighting for your rights gents ;) (and to repeat: I hate PVP XD but EVE is a good example of why PVP in a sandbox augments the experience, not takes away from it).


    One thing here, though:  Eve didnt' have full-loot.

    It had what I would call 'full loss.'  Most of the loot *blows up* before it gets into the looter's hands.  This changes the behavioral incentives a fair bit compared to literal "full loot" systems.  And also allows it to act as a wealth-sink rather than just a wealth-redistribution method.

    Not everyone will take that incentive;  some just want to blow shit up while others are doing their pew-pew in contexts where such things don't make much sense.   But then they have to find other means of income to support their own losses when it's inevitably their turn to get blowed-up, which takes them out of the action for a bit themselves (either before to build a buffer, or after to rebuild.) 

     

    I doubt this is what the OP was thinking about, but the idea is at least somewhat outside the normal box...

  • Abuz0rAbuz0r Lexington, KYPosts: 354Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by KaosProphet
    Originally posted by Dihoru

    Christ its getting to the point where I think CVA was a fluke in MMO terms (roleplayers, industrials, PVEers from EVE whom live in a sector of space they claim and defend viciously from invasions and raiders, their patch of 0.0 space is amongst the safest in the whole of EVE which isn't saying much but when you see PVEers gathering in mass to form pirate/ganker hunting parties you get the point of what people who fight for their rights can do). Less entitled demands of castrating MMO sandboxes to fit your warped demands on the medium and more fighting for your rights gents ;) (and to repeat: I hate PVP XD but EVE is a good example of why PVP in a sandbox augments the experience, not takes away from it).


    One thing here, though:  Eve didnt' have full-loot.

    It had what I would call 'full loss.'  Most of the loot *blows up* before it gets into the looter's hands.  This changes the behavioral incentives a fair bit compared to literal "full loot" systems.  And also allows it to act as a wealth-sink rather than just a wealth-redistribution method.

    Not everyone will take that incentive;  some just want to blow shit up while others are doing their pew-pew in contexts where such things don't make much sense.   But then they have to find other means of income to support their own losses when it's inevitably their turn to get blowed-up, which takes them out of the action for a bit themselves (either before to build a buffer, or after to rebuild.) 

     

    I doubt this is what the OP was thinking about, but the idea is at least somewhat outside the normal box...

    This is 1 mechanic most games are missing, wealth sinks.  They help the games economy no matter how you see them.

  • OnomasOnomas Rock Hill, SCPosts: 1,128Member Uncommon

    sandbox =/= full loot open world pvp.

    More sandbox games have limited, or no pvp at all.

    Even newer sandbox like AOW doesnt have full loot pvp. These misconceptions lead people down the wrong path and need to stop.

    Newer games like Archeage wont have full loot either nor will several other sandbox style games coming out later on.

  • FromHellFromHell NY, NYPosts: 1,311Member
    The corpse loot FFA PvP server in Age of Conan has the least population, corpse loot is not that popular because it is stressful

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  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,205Member Uncommon

    I have a simple suggestion that'd make it slightly more fun.

     

    each crafted item has the name of the crafter written in green, and the name of each looter written in red in a list.

     

    who knows, maybe 2 years later you get back that microwarpdrive you lost during a failed bomb run. :D

     

    again, this is not a game-changer, just a very small suggestion. :). don't expect it to fix mmo's for ever.

    image

  • KaosProphetKaosProphet Edmonton, ABPosts: 379Member
    Originally posted by Rhonen

    I will simply not play any game that has FFA PvP Looting.  That will make me very happy indeed.  About the only thing that would make me happier is if the developers would just stop putting in any form of PvP in my PvE games.

    Ratero.

    I endorse this approach.  Mostly.

    See, as far as I'm concerned 'mainstreaming' games such that they try to have some nominal appeal to everyone, all at once, is about the worst thing to happen to MMO gameplay.  It did wonders for the budgets, allowing for massive increases in the technical quality;  but then they couldn't afford to cater that game to anyone *but* the casuals who wanted a little bit of everything but not a lot of anything.

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Originally posted by Onomas

    sandbox =/= full loot open world pvp.

    More sandbox games have limited, or no pvp at all.

    Even newer sandbox like AOW doesnt have full loot pvp. These misconceptions lead people down the wrong path and need to stop.

    Newer games like Archeage wont have full loot either nor will several other sandbox style games coming out later on.

    AoW is a sandpark by the developer's own admission -_-...   take your own advice with misconceptions.

    In that same vein Ascheron's Call is also classified as a sandpark by its characteristics (questing as a means of improving your character).

    Pretty much any PVE "sandbox" is actually a hybrid with what sandbox elements it does have (housing, crafting, etc) basically being pointless in the grand scheme of things (no strife means no reason to actually have anything besides one upping your guild mates/adversaries).

     

    When I say full loot I mean you lose everything you have on you at that time not that the looter gets everything (so an EVE system, yes).

    The thing I don't get though is why people are so adverse to losing pixels? I mean you should invest in your character not the crap he wears/uses/flies, I mean yeah I am attached to some of my ships in EVE but unless it gets blown up by a in-game glitch I really don't care (even my first Tengu, which I still have, which I spent months building and over a year tweaking and improving its fit, if it goes poof I'll miss it for the 20-30 min it would take me to put another one back together). Play smart and no matter how much you get ganked you'll never be running around in your unmentionables but if you're an entitled little man child who thinks items are everything then yeah... you'll be crying allot in that type of game.

     

    image
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