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If you don't like the holy trinity, come up with something better.

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  • AntiquatedAntiquated Oak Brook, MIPosts: 673Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    I see some people complain about the holy trinity.

    That's fine, but realise that the holy trinity from Everquest, which was based on D&D, created one of the most successful MMO communities ever, a community that grouped and was much stronger than the fast-paced action games we see now.

    So people who say

    "the trinity is boring, we need something new"

    That's great, but unless you are able to offer something as compelling as the trinity then I'll remain playing games with a trinity.

    Don't fix what isn't broken.

    Part of the problem is, more than the three most basic roles? Has already existed.

  • RhinotonesRhinotones BenowaPosts: 238Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SlickShoes
    Originally posted by Rhinotones

    There's more than one way to skin a cat.

    Some systems may work better than others in certain environments but there is never one that will ALWAYS be the best for all environments. What happens to some of us after playing one way for so long is that we get bored and start to seek a change. If we try something new, we may like it and stick with it (til we get bored again), keep searching, or go back to what we know. 

    So, for me it's not about coming up with something better but creating something different to give players a NEW experience.

    Here's some ideas:

    Combine tank/dps roles. Give each class a taunt or threat type attack to keep target focused on them. If you're facing a boss that uses magic for dmg you could have a spell casting class(with their increased magic defences) as a tank. Or, Melee/casting classes alternate if a boss has both abilities)

    You could keep healers. Or, have each class have some type of self heal abilities.

    You could create a class whose sole responsibility is to control ads. You could create a whole array of control methods so that the ads are slowed down or stopped so a party can deal with them before they are overwhelmed. They may drop them into a hole in the ground, slowing them til they climb out, levitate them for a periood of time, freeze them in place, transport them to the other side of the cavern etc etc.

    Some instances/dungeons may require 3 crowd control guys for example, others one or even none. Could make for some exciting new dynamics.

    It's not hard to create a new system but the trick will be to have it balance and work well.

    Rhino.

    None of that is new, it's all been in WoW at some point. They have different bosses that need tanked by different people, they have bosses that require add control and management, they have bosses where you have to self heal. 

    I actually think WoW raids ave plenty variety in the machanics over the years just most people either don't see it when it's relevant or dismiss everything with tanks dps and healers as basic tank and spank.

    I think everything you described is still a trinity too, currently games have a hard enough time just getting tanks and healers to play those roles trying to get people to play a constant control class is difficult.

    Aspects of a couple of these have appeared in WoW for specific bosses yes. They are not part of the general instance or raid system mechanics though.

    Could you please highlight what indicates any sort of trinity from my suggestion. For me Trinity implies 3 seperate roles for tanking, damage and healing. Maybe I should have been a little more specific when I said combine tank/dps to "get rid of" tank, instead using a class that would be more suited to dealing with the attacks delt by that foe rather than having a guy that is going to be the tank for 95% of the fights.

    If each class could tank, self heal and damage ALL at the SAME TIME (dependant on the boss) how is this the same as WoW? If there is a class whose soul purpose was to crowd control for ALL fights, what class in WoW only does this?

    Anyway, I could possibly have worded things better and I am in no way suggesting that this concept was great. I was mearly  showing some ideas of the top of my head to altering what is a standard trinity system.

    I feel you missed my main point regarding my post which was not about "coming up with something better but creating something different to give players a NEW experience."

    Cheers Rhino.

    image
  • AntiquatedAntiquated Oak Brook, MIPosts: 673Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rhinotones

    Aspects of a couple of these have appeared in WoW for specific bosses yes. They are not part of the general instance or raid system mechanics though.

    Remember Naxx, where the shadow priest was elected to tank (via mind control)?

    The "trinity only possible answer" thing is just lazy thinking, and overall an indication that your system is too reliant on the most basic tank-and-spank bosses.

    Not quite sure why anyone would see that as a good thing. Job security comfy warm hugs?

  • AntiquatedAntiquated Oak Brook, MIPosts: 673Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by KaosProphet

    Not that I have anything against the trinity *itself.*  Just it's near-omnipresence in the market.  (Well, that and the hordes of trinity advocates who scream bloody murder at the mere thought of trying something else.)

    To be fair, better than half of the mmo gamers on the planet entered the system post-WoW. It's a flaw of game development, that's all they've ever been offered.

  • aspekxaspekx Brandon, FLPosts: 2,167Member
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    I see some people complain about the holy trinity.

    That's fine, but realise that the holy trinity from Everquest, which was based on D&D, created one of the most successful MMO communities ever, a community that grouped and was much stronger than the fast-paced action games we see now.

    So people who say

    "the trinity is boring, we need something new"

    That's great, but unless you are able to offer something as compelling as the trinity then I'll remain playing games with a trinity.

    Don't fix what isn't broken.

    you can usually tell who's actually played DnD.

    its so sad. some of you guys should just find a good 3.5 tabletop campaign and experience it.

    "There are at least two kinds of games.
    One could be called finite, the other infinite.
    A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
    an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
    Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  • Eir_SEir_S Argyle, NYPosts: 4,623Member
    I knew there'd be GW2 bashing before I even opened this.  The fact remains, I've never had to wait for anyone nor have there been petty power struggles or blame placed on people in groups.  Just fun.  I'll still play trinity games, but they're not at the top of my list anymore after GW2 and potentially TESO.  Things don't need to be as rigid as one or the other, there can be benefits from both old and new styles, but it's kind of silly to try and bash down anything that attempts to be different.
  • AntiquatedAntiquated Oak Brook, MIPosts: 673Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by chelan

    you can usually tell who's actually played DnD.

    its so sad. some of you guys should just find a good 3.5 tabletop campaign and experience it.

    Well now I've played just boatloads of D&D.

    Yet, never played one die roll of "3.5 tabletop campaign".

    Damnkids. image

  • aspekxaspekx Brandon, FLPosts: 2,167Member
    Originally posted by Antiquated
    Originally posted by chelan

    you can usually tell who's actually played DnD.

    its so sad. some of you guys should just find a good 3.5 tabletop campaign and experience it.

    Well now I've played just boatloads of D&D.

    Yet, never played one die roll of "3.5 tabletop campaign".

    Damnkids. image

    well i started with the oldskool AD&D. but 3.5 is the most accessible system still left after the 4.0 debacle. i just want some folks to know what there sources are and what its like to play against an "AI" that's another person (DM). trinity doesn't mean anything in a game like that. bunch of drow come round the bend they know damn well to take down the wizard or cleric as quick as they can. they know to engage each party member in combat.

    anywho... Damnkids ;)

    "There are at least two kinds of games.
    One could be called finite, the other infinite.
    A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
    an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
    Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  • EleazarosEleazaros Neverneverland, WAPosts: 206Member

    The older style wouldn't work with modern gamers.

    The ADD nature and "demand" based way games run would preclude most alternate systems from working.  It needs to be consistent and predictable.  If you can't google the answers on "best build" "how to do ..." so on and so forth, most gamers have already demonstrated they'll throw fits.

    These common attributes you find across MMO's is due to the same logic as your DPS parser.  The game companies "parse" who does what and build more of what the players do vs just what they talk about - which rarely matches what they stay with for any length of time.

    Too much variance off the common themes we see and it won't be acceptable by enough players to make a quality game that can be supported by the game manufacturer.

    So what people do as they play limits what they can and will be able to offer with "high quality" presentations.  It costs to make the stuff.

  • Dexter2010Dexter2010 Beverly Hills, CAPosts: 244Member Common
    Originally posted by aSynchro
    1) EQ didn't have a strict Holy Trinity. And sorry but its the first time i heard "EQ community was amazing *because* i could play a tank!!"

    2) The Holy Trinity IS broken. Tank in pvp? Healer when doing solo quest ? Having to wait 1 hours because your group is missing a tank ? Having your healer friend enable to play with you because you are yourself a healer ? Please.

    4) D&D doesn't use the trinity. There a long thread about it somewhere on these forums. Basic idea is: you heal *after the fight*

    3) Non trinity mmo already exist and are/were succesful. You should check UO EVE or GW2 and its +3 millions boxes sale.

    I agree. I like Rift's idea of every class can fill all roles and the early days of GW1 where healers can fully dps. I want to be a dps-ing tank/healer or some sort of hybtid that excels in 2 roles. I want to form parties where you can replace a fulltime healer with 2 semi-healers. Soloability is good too...

    How is the trinity not broken? You beg or wait an hour for a tank to enter a 15 min dungeon then find out he's undergeared or no good and he's got a God complex. People steal gear -your gear- outside their role. The trinity restricts gameplay and makes for more grinding. Wanna tank instead of healing? Need on the tank's gear and people shout Ninja before kicking you. Wanna dps a raid with defence gear cause that's all you got? You like being pigeon holed for being best geared healer? You like people rolling need on everything cause they have 3 specs?
  • Eir_SEir_S Argyle, NYPosts: 4,623Member
    Originally posted by Dexter2010
    Originally posted by aSynchro
    1) EQ didn't have a strict Holy Trinity. And sorry but its the first time i heard "EQ community was amazing *because* i could play a tank!!"

    2) The Holy Trinity IS broken. Tank in pvp? Healer when doing solo quest ? Having to wait 1 hours because your group is missing a tank ? Having your healer friend enable to play with you because you are yourself a healer ? Please.

    4) D&D doesn't use the trinity. There a long thread about it somewhere on these forums. Basic idea is: you heal *after the fight*

    3) Non trinity mmo already exist and are/were succesful. You should check UO EVE or GW2 and its +3 millions boxes sale.

    I agree. I like Rift's idea of every class can fill all roles and the early days of GW1 where healers can fully dps. I want to be a dps-ing tank/healer or some sort of hybtid that excels in 2 roles. I want to form parties where you can replace a fulltime healer with 2 semi-healers. Soloability is good too...

    How is the trinity not broken? You beg or wait an hour for a tank to enter a 15 min dungeon then find out he's undergeared or no good and he's got a God complex. People steal gear -your gear- outside their role. The trinity restricts gameplay and makes for more grinding. Wanna tank instead of healing? Need on the tank's gear and people shout Ninja before kicking you. Wanna dps a raid with defence gear cause that's all you got? You like being pigeon holed for being best geared healer? You like people rolling need on everything cause they have 3 specs?

    Well to be fair, that's not really the trinity's fault, that's the fault of dev's who think there can only be one kind of loot distribution system.  Why not have a system that allows progression but also one like GW2's where everyone gets loot from a chest?  Hey maybe it's not what you wanted, but you can always try again, just like any raid, but the chances of you getting something increase exponentially. 

    In addition to that, I guess maybe you could also spawn different gear based on what spec you're in at the time.  The whole Need roll is the problem in my opinion, not the trinity, though that's a bit broken itself.

  • DeathageDeathage charlotte, NCPosts: 146Member
    Originally posted by aSynchro
    2) The Holy Trinity IS broken. Tank in pvp? Healer when doing solo quest ? Having to wait 1 hours because your group is missing a tank ? Having your healer friend enable to play with you because you are yourself a healer ? Please.        4) D&D doesn't use the trinity. There a long thread about it somewhere on these forums. Basic idea is: you heal *after the fight*                                                                                                                                                                                                          3) Non trinity mmo already exist and are/were succesful. You should check UO EVE or GW2 and its +3 millions boxes sale.

    Regarding point 2 - 

    So the trinity is broken because not all classes are proficient in the three major spheres of gameplay? (solo PVE, group PVE, and pvp) I would definitely agree that the trinity, as it is popularly implemented, has some major flaws, but I think that lack of utility across the spheres of gameplay makes for a poor argument. A lack of ability to thrive in every role is often what leads players to seek out groups. Generally, the less utility a character has in soloing content and the more difficult they are to maneuver in group content (using your example, a tank in say a high end raid) the more desirable they are in a group. Sorry you had to wait for so long for a tank. Maybe roll one next time.

    Blending all classes into a formless blob of dps and heals is not the answer, at least not if you want to promote a dedicated, intelligent playerbase at the high end.

    The problem with the trinity is a lack of differentiation. There needs to be utility in each class, something that sets it apart from other classes and gives them greater desirability. Using the ever-popular WoW example, look at the rogue's recently added group cloak ability that allows  the whole party to sneak past mobs, or at the shamans ability to enrage the group, increasing damage. There is nothing inherently wrong with the trinity, its simply that depth needs to be reintroduced.

     

  • Vunak23Vunak23 In your house eatin'' your cookies, FLPosts: 635Member

    Games should strive for an open skill based progression and skill based combat. That way people ttat are good enough can progress without the need of a tank or healer. But the tank and healer roll still exists for those that aren't. With a skill system as well, people can craft their character anyway they want without being pigeon holed into a specific role. 

    But the one character can do it all at one time just is zergy. 

    "In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  • MavekMavek Voorhees, NJPosts: 138Member
    Originally posted by zipzap
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    Don't fix what isn't broken.

    so nothing should be upgraded or changed ever?

    i'm pretty sure the shape of the wheel has stayed the same for the last 20,000 years.

  • AntiquatedAntiquated Oak Brook, MIPosts: 673Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Deathage

    Blending all classes into a formless blob of dps and heals is not the answer, at least not if you want to promote a dedicated, intelligent playerbase at the high end.

    Let's be sure we're following this properly--premise: specialist roles yield complexity.

    The greater the number of specialist roles, the more complex the game is? (This premise just might yield a result greater than 3, by the way).

    Reduction to absurdity, of course, is to point out that at the ultimate level of specialization, each player is responsible for using a single ability in a party. That sounds complex as hell from a logistical standpoint (herding these 300 cats though an instance), but horribly simple from an individual standpoint ("I cast "fireball" twice per run, otherwise just suck my thumb and collect loot").

    Reduction to absurdity in the opposite direction; a single generalist character capable of every ability in the game.  The Self-contained TankMageHealer. I think most people can (try) to explain why tankmages are historically recognized as bad for RPGs.

    Sounds like no pat answer applies.

  • DeathageDeathage charlotte, NCPosts: 146Member
    Originally posted by Antiquated
    Reduction to absurdity, of course, is to point out that at the ultimate level of specialization, each player is responsible for using a single ability in a party. That sounds complex as hell from a logistical standpoint (herding these 300 cats though an instance), but horribly simple from an individual standpoint ("I cast "fireball" twice per run, otherwise just suck my thumb and collect loot").

    Reduction to absurdity in the opposite direction; a single generalist character capable of every ability in the game.  The Self-contained TankMageHealer. I think most people can (try) to explain why tankmages are historically recognized as bad for RPGs.

    Sounds like no pat answer applies.

    Agreed. As someone said earlier in this topic, there is more than one way to skin a cat. But, as you said, the ultimate level of specialization in the direction of the trinity as you reasoned it was absurd, and is not what I or I think anyone else is advocating. However, the reduction in the opposite direction, ala GW2, has been implemented. What I am advocating is the creation of secondary benefits within the greater scope of the class's specialization/role. While not necessarily vital to the completion of the dungeon/raid, they may be desirable in a certain situation.

  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKPosts: 8,506Member Uncommon

    I think the Trinity is not the problem but how its implemented is.

    Rift does it right, the fact that you can switch your build from fight to fight as more tanky, more healer or more DPS depending on soul combinations, to me thats the way to go. Obviously Rifts system is not perfect but its a step in the right direction of giving all players the opportunity to participate as multiple roles.

  • JRRNeiklotJRRNeiklot Decatur, ALPosts: 108Member
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    I see some people complain about the holy trinity.

    That's fine, but realise that the holy trinity from Everquest, which was based on D&D, created one of the most successful MMO communities ever, a community that grouped and was much stronger than the fast-paced action games we see now.

    So people who say

    "the trinity is boring, we need something new"

    That's great, but unless you are able to offer something as compelling as the trinity then I'll remain playing games with a trinity.

    Don't fix what isn't broken.

    D&D never had a holy trinity.  A party with 4 magic users is just as viable as one with 4 fighters.  I have never understood why this has to be different in mmos.

  • MawneeMawnee Spring Hill, FLPosts: 197Member Uncommon

     

     

    ASHERONS CALL

     

     

    This game threw out the holy trinity yet people grouped. You could have any combination of skills you wanted. When grouped everyone DPSd, everyone healed, everyone tanked. People had completely individual builds yet still needed numbers to accomplish goals/quests. No "raid" or quest required X tanks, X healers, X DPS ect. It also allowed groups larger than 6......

    While this game was not a smashing sucess as measured by subscription numbers. Anytime this game is mentioned you hear nothing but rave reviews of people who played it for YEARS(not weeks/months). If only it had a better graphics engine......

     

     

  • Dexter2010Dexter2010 Beverly Hills, CAPosts: 244Member Common
    Originally posted by Eir_S
    Originally posted by Dexter2010
    Originally posted by aSynchro
    1) EQ didn't have a strict Holy Trinity. And sorry but its the first time i heard "EQ community was amazing *because* i could play a tank!!"

    2) The Holy Trinity IS broken. Tank in pvp? Healer when doing solo quest ? Having to wait 1 hours because your group is missing a tank ? Having your healer friend enable to play with you because you are yourself a healer ? Please.

    4) D&D doesn't use the trinity. There a long thread about it somewhere on these forums. Basic idea is: you heal *after the fight*

    3) Non trinity mmo already exist and are/were succesful. You should check UO EVE or GW2 and its +3 millions boxes sale.

    I agree. I like Rift's idea of every class can fill all roles and the early days of GW1 where healers can fully dps. I want to be a dps-ing tank/healer or some sort of hybtid that excels in 2 roles. I want to form parties where you can replace a fulltime healer with 2 semi-healers. Soloability is good too...

    How is the trinity not broken? You beg or wait an hour for a tank to enter a 15 min dungeon then find out he's undergeared or no good and he's got a God complex. People steal gear -your gear- outside their role. The trinity restricts gameplay and makes for more grinding. Wanna tank instead of healing? Need on the tank's gear and people shout Ninja before kicking you. Wanna dps a raid with defence gear cause that's all you got? You like being pigeon holed for being best geared healer? You like people rolling need on everything cause they have 3 specs?

    Well to be fair, that's not really the trinity's fault, that's the fault of dev's who think there can only be one kind of loot distribution system.  Why not have a system that allows progression but also one like GW2's where everyone gets loot from a chest?  Hey maybe it's not what you wanted, but you can always try again, just like any raid, but the chances of you getting something increase exponentially. 

    In addition to that, I guess maybe you could also spawn different gear based on what spec you're in at the time.  The whole Need roll is the problem in my opinion, not the trinity, though that's a bit broken itself.

    This alone would solve countless problems and I've asked for it for years but WoW won't even consider it.

    That would be an imperfect idea as getting initial gear could be problematic.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Take a page from online ARPG grouping. Many of those do NOT use the trinity.
  • Aison2Aison2 MarburgPosts: 624Member
    Originally posted by Antiquated
    in the opposite direction; a single generalist character capable of every ability in the game.  The Self-contained TankMageHealer. I think most people can (try) to explain why tankmages are historically recognized as bad for RPGs.

     

    A tankmagehealer is not really bad if done right.
     What adds depth to it is making abilities effictiveness highly situational. Obviously noone plays a six-handed god who can multitask all roles at the same time. What a group of tankmagehealer players does is play holy trinity by situation: the person who gets attacked goes into tankmode, the rest divides themselve into dps and healer, some might even switch between depending on need.  Ideally the fight is highly dynamic with mobs switching targets, silencing schools which forces to switch to another role , or simply going into x dps or group wipes to force all playing offensive.

    Think like switching to different stances depending on if you get attacked , a friend gets attacked and you need to heal him or you got your hands free and can go into dps mode.

     

    Most current holy trinity games already implement this albeit in a form where the primary choosen role is much stronger then the others.
     

    Pi*1337/100 = 42

  • GiffenGiffen Lacey, WAPosts: 268Member Uncommon

    The bottom line is the "holy trinity" is just another way of saying classes are specialized.  This type of play only comes in games that stress group play over soloing.  EQ had CC on top of Heals, Tank, DPS, but again all were specializations for specific classes, but it wasn't a holy trinity.

     

    Soloers want to be able to do it all...have a party in their pants so to speak..so they aren't dependent on anyone else in game.  But this type of mindset is what has made MMOs crap IMHO.  People play the game to solo and have a chat box to entertain themselves in these games.  "Forced grouping" MMOs end up being much richer due to the social element of actually having to work as a group with people that may be located all over the globe to solve in game challenges.  This social interaction is what leads to friendships and a hook to keep players wanting to log in. 

     

    The MMORPG genre needs more specialized classes "forced grouping" games as the industry if just full of solofest games..very few left that require good group play to advance in game.

  • JRRNeiklotJRRNeiklot Decatur, ALPosts: 108Member
    Originally posted by Giffen

    The bottom line is the "holy trinity" is just another way of saying classes are specialized.  This type of play only comes in games that stress group play over soloing.

    Wrong.  Again, Tabletop games don't have a holy trinity and they stress grouping.  MMOS sprang out of D&D, so why must they have a trinity?  I have never heard any valid reason why.  Some game designer decided it would be a good idea and it works, but why must EVERY game follow that model? 

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by JRRNeiklot
    Originally posted by Giffen

    The bottom line is the "holy trinity" is just another way of saying classes are specialized.  This type of play only comes in games that stress group play over soloing.

    Wrong.  Again, Tabletop games don't have a holy trinity and they stress grouping.  MMOS sprang out of D&D, so why must they have a trinity?  I have never heard any valid reason why.  Some game designer decided it would be a good idea and it works, but why must EVERY game follow that model? 

    Tabletop games are for small groups. MMOs are not. So what if MMOs sprang out of D&D. Things changed. Video games sprang out of Pong. Do you see many similarities between Pong and games you play today?

    Now, i do agree there is no reason why trinity is needed in all games. But D&D is not the reason. There are obviously other combat mechanics that will work in a MMO setting. For example, FPS.

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