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Explain Please: So You Don't Like The Combat
nate1980
Member UncommonPosts: 2,063
I don't peruse this forum much, since it's not a game I'm passionate about, but now and then I see a thread in the "most recent posts" section complaining about how they don't like the combat or animations.
I'm just curious as to why? I played TSW for just over a month when it released and now I just recently started to play it again. I've never minded the animations or combat. The character itself is stiff when it comes to turning him, but the combat is fun and and easy to learn, so you can focus more on the fighting, buffs, debuffs, positioning and etc. The animations aren't really flashy, but look to have a bit of realism to them.
So please, be nice, but specifically point out why you don't like the combat or animations.
Comments
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
I played almost every mmorpg released in past 10 years but I just canz explain why I dislike TSW combat. Having instant respond and having instant reactive skills is one of the most important aspect of mmorpgs combat. Sadly I dont see it in TSW, either animations are taking too long, or global cooldown is too long, or maybe its the whole combat system is just not perfect ... man I just dont know
But its not there. + also the dodge was so lame lol. Compare dodge of for instance.. GW2 vs TSW 
It feels like your character, the enemies, and the background are all on separate layers. Existing independently from each other and incapable of contact.
I think the same goes for all the game's aspects...Pve, pvp, each map the whole game is a group of great ideas and creations but there is no unity. I cant see TSW as a package....
The animation are fine and what i would call realistic.
Sadly we have a crowd of "If its not spewing fireballs and lighting its not good enough" people around here.
And the part about the dodge being lame compared to GW2? You cant get any more ridiculous in my eyes.
not to get into a this game is better than that but TSW dodge was litteraly added in on the very last few weeks of beta.. it was not designed to be apart of the combat to begin with at all.. and to me it does have a more "tacked on" feeling compared to the one in gw2 which was design from the start to be a main part of the combat system. I don't think tsw one looks bad but doesn't feel as "in place" as it should to me
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL2-d_cEl5U&t=0m21s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=az7lxHlda60&t=0m27s
even just watching video not always easy to see but playing each game its very noticable(to me at least)
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
This is one of the things that drove me crazy about Rift. All warriors and rogues are based off the combo/finisher system.
+1 double thumbs up for this post
Yep, TSW doesn't exactly cause epilleptic seizures not being all crazy flashy like the asian type MMOs but that's what I enjoy about it.
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This is just my opinion but the builder and spender mechanic is boring. Depending on what you have you push your builder 5 times then spend your 2 consumers and that’s it (1,1,1,1,1,2,3,1,1,1,1,1,2,3). Of course there are other abilities in there for buffing or survival but that is about it.
If I’m missing something by the way someone please tell me ; D. I want to like the game dammit ; D.
I loved the game theme and they do a very good job with the atmosphere and the music but I just couldn’t get over the combat. The animations didn’t even bother me that much either compared to others.
Well combat wise, all the skills use the same build/attack method of resource management. Now this would be ok if TSW was the first mmo to do the "skill sets" model, but they're not and its been done better in mmos that are still going on today.
Animation wise, not really a big thing for me. Their not perfect and you can get into these weird hic-ups in the animations when doing things like running side ways.
You sound like you've got a build that has finishers that use 5 resources. There are other weapons in the game, you don't have to use a rifle. I kid, I kid! The point is that some finishers use less.
Bloodshot, as one example, is very good damage, and only uses two resources. So building to five and then Bloodshot Bloodshot Bloodshot is not efficient. The reason is how blood works. If you cut yourself opening with bloodshot, you get more damage out of your next blood abilities. A more efficient rotation is builder, bloodshot, builder builder bloodshot. The first builder is so you don't hurt yourself as badly on the first bloodshot. You consume your health based on how many resources you have available - if I have 0 resources Blood Offering ticks for about 40. If I have one available it ticks for about 20. But if I have two, I don't get the Blood Offering buff at all. Since it gives a 10.5% buff to blood abilities, it is better to open with a builder, and to then consume.
Very few people go blood even though it has great utility and good range. They usually go rifle/elemental. I can't say I blame them, I do like elemental, but I hate how rifle plays. Don't ask why, it just hasn't "clicked" for me. But there's plenty of abilities that don't rely on a 5 consumer rotation. I have an alt with a rotation like that and I play her when I'm tired because it's so mindlessly easy for me. So if you're looking for something more complicated, check around the wheel - there's some really good abilities in elemental that don't require five resources, too.
I would hazard a guess that one of the main problem, whether people realize it or not, is that since your bar is limited to 7 things you need at least a 2 or 3 or those things to do something dramatic. Yet due to the way the wheel works out most everything does fairly modest things.
Now I realize the word "dramatic" is highly subjective. I also realize that a properly built guy can layer many modest synergistic things together to make something powerful. But it powerful while not being dramatic.
Compare the combat to GW1 or GW2. I suggest these solely because they have a limited skill bar as well. Many normal attacks build up to something dramatic. There are serious heavy hitters. Dramatic excapes etc.
Now TSW has a few long CD defensives but beyond that it mostly pecks away at things or just straight up blasts them. When you limit the skill bar to 7 or 8 things you (as a designer) really need to make the, I guess you can call it, emotional impact of those things really stick.
I believe this was one of the fundamental reasons ANet choose to get rid of secondary classes. They wanted to really make the a class build "pop". And one the reasons TSW combat winds up the way it does. I like the wheel system but a natural consequence of such a system a tendency to genericsize the individual combat actions. In the end most attack are just either a heavy hit or many small hits, damage or tank/utility oriented, and may or may not add some debuff or buff. You may say well yeah but that all RPGs really, sure but that ALL there is to TSW ie. it lacks the extra umph of that drama. It stripped down to the Pen and Paper RPG part. Fine for an old school PnP person like me but lacking for many normal people.
No the animations are not "realistic" at least not when performed in an organic fashion. Many animations are ok when you stand there hit a button and examine that animation in isolation.
But as soon as you start chaining things together and moving or jumping while doing them someone who has done year worth of grappling and martial arts like myself start insticntively wincing and saying "Egad he is both missing vertebrae and the ones he has are made of rubber."
Its not about wizbang effects. Sure the Chaos claw spin around and full circle animation looks fairly fluid. Put it together with other stuff and its fluid-> wtf the model lost half its joints and had arthiritis and how hell can you be that stiff in mid air?
I do find parts of it annoying.
If I could grow 3 more fingers on my left hand, that might resolve some issues but...
What I mean more specifically.
I have 1-7 for attack buttons. I have WSAD , with Q & E "strafe" keys for movement, Alt key targets self temporarily, F1-F5 target others in a group while tab key targets other hostiles.
Strafing/circling is often done via mouse + movement keys, double-tap "dodges" in a direction, etc.
Soloing and DPS builds in groups aren't that bad. Healing sucks wind if you don't just focus on the tank and try to heal up others (looking at many healing builds posted, most simply appear to have an attitude that - DPS needs to CYOA unless the fight is trivial and the tank is "outgeared" for the fights)
Yet even soloing...
Srafe while keeping the target in your forward arc so you can hit it, while rotating which attacks you are using to kick-off triggers - toss on environmental effects & special/AoE attacks and it gets trickky - especially in tight-quarters with "adds" near by.
As such, many will simply gear up beyond a fight's design and almost always go toe-to-toe vs fighting "at level" with many targets. It just gets too cumbersome to try and hit all those various keys.
Ahhh... Now I see the problem you're talking about.
Yeah I don't tend to do dungeon DPS because it is mostly about ranged weapons and they are boring as hell but that's not much different in most MMO's.
Here are a couple fun little build to aim for and try out for soloing. I think you'll inf your "1, 1, 1, 1, ..." isn't quite as appropriate with this build. It's not "optimal DPS" but it's a fun build to use and keeps combat engaging.
Based upon Hammer + Fist for these.
Single Target:
Bear Knuckles - Go for the Throat - Wild at Heart - Cauterise - Haymaker - Muzzle - Beatdown
Interrupt heavy build designed around impared target with 3 different impare abilities loaded. You don't just hit builder followed by closer every 5th attack. The timers on the other abilities means you rotate what you use, how/when you use them.
It's pretty damned far from "boring button mashing" of builder, 2 closers.
AoE build: (hammer focus)
Ground Pound - Piledriver - Wild at Heart - Cauterize - Surgical Steel - Beserk - Eruption
More like your builder + closer. Far less DPS than most builds but, again, it mixes up the buttons a bit.
Beserk adds an extra AoE hit to whatever attack you use. As such, using it with an AoE attack adds another set of hits to the mix.
Heal build: (quite different - blood + fist - not your typical "single-target" style build)
Cauterise - Blood Shield - Surgical Steel - Hermatic Rights - Angelic Aegis - Vigour - Fired Up
4 single target heals, 3 group "heal" effects. It's quite a bit different than most I've come across where it's more "CYOA" on anyone outside the main-tank and does require shifting what you hit and when.
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my point on this not being about bragging on my builds. By many players standards these "suck" but their "good builds" are some of the most boring crap I've seen that follow what you describe with the buttons you hit and the more "stand there" approaches you use.
For dungeons - I tend to find DPS in them to be pretty boring but not so much if I"m a healer with 5 targets I need to pay attentiont to - besides just a main target.
It's a point I've been trying to make for awhile, and you hit it on the head -- players have the option to choose from 525 abilities -- why are they finding themselves stuck in a rut and bored? I think it's because in some cases players don't understand to what extent they can change the deck and make things more interesting. I almost think in addition to "how can I min/max my deck?," we should be asking "how can I make my deck more fun (and still be effective)?"
Yep this. And some animations are just outright terrible.
The rest of the game is fine, although the builder / consumer thing for every build is annoying, but when I slice through a group of mobs, it feels like I didn't hit them at all. The reaction animations just don't fit.
Compare that to Neverwinter, Age of Conan, Guild Wars 2 or TERA, and you can see why people think the animations are bad.
Well, according to the poll, it seems 50% of them agree.
I feel something like this about it too, it just does not feel very smooth and connected overall.
I am sure ,50% peoples who dislike combat in that poll,have no idea how looking combat in TSW