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Review from old school D&D fan and MMO veteran

13

Comments

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,066Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GrayGhost79
    Originally posted by thark
    Originally posted by GrayGhost79
    Originally posted by thark

    Based on 4th edtion, based losely on 4th edition...thats a big diffrence just in this line.!!!

    I haven't played any of the betas , ea I haven't played the game yet..but just by looking at vids and reading forums..I come to this conclusion, the game seems fun, but ..D&D ?

     From what I can tell, they have used a few names here and there , spells and some advanced class names, thats how far the resemblence to D&D 4th edition goes with Neverwinter. Thats a very small resemblence..

    Or is there actually "more" things that are  by the D&D 4th ed rules ?

    Lore is another thing however, If the lore is good ...well then It can be a great game

    The dungeons are(from what I have seen) ..mostly super linear "corridors" with a boss in the middle and a boss in the end..Is that so ?

    I cant come to my sences why a developer would want to negate a large chunk of players when creating an IP like this, The D&D crowd may aswell go back to DDO , It's a far superior game , In a D&D sence , than this one..Not saying this can't be fun..but ..

     

    Nah, DDO lacked one integral thing from ever making it an actual D&D game. Player created content. Neverwinter has better graphics, better combat, unlimited content through the foundry, and uses a modified version of 4th edition which translates better to a graphical game than 3rd edition could. 

     

    1) When getting a license for a D&D game you have to use the edition Wizards of the Coast want you to use. In this case it was 4th edition. When DDO came out it was 3.5. 

    2) 4th edition actually sucks for a table top game, but that is mainly because they targeted the MMO crowd with 4th edition. 

    3) The dailies, the encounter powers, etc. it all comes from 4th edition. The math from 4th edition is there just tucked away in the background. The lore is there. The classes are from 4th edition and they have stated plans to eventually have them all in game. It is 4th edition even if its modified a bit. 

    4) It allows you to do what DDO doesn't, create content which is a core feature in D&D. You can actually take and develop content for your friends, have them  play it and even play it with them. Not only will they be able to play the campaigns you've made but so will thousands of others. 

     

    Neverwinter is closer to D&D than DDO could ever hope to be due to the foundry. Even without the foundry Neverwinter sticks closer to 4th edition than DDO does to 3rd or 3.5. To be fair though, 4th edition again was made with the MMO crowd in mind and translated to a graphical game a great deal better. 

     

    Brush up on 4th edition and play a campaign or two, play Neverwinters beta, then come back and tell me it's not based on 4th edition or that it doesn't have very much in common with the current D&D.  

     Yes I agree there is the foundry, but NOTHING in that statement will be true aslong as long as 90 percent of the dungeons created in the foundry is bad, sure they will be marked by a popularity system , but still..The IDEA behind the foundry is great..

    Not to say that DDO can't release their own version of the foudry thou

    But from looking at the dungeons created by the dev's in NW, don't you count them ? They should by my standards atleast be better then the average dungeon that is created in the foundry, and as far as I can tell, they are a linear fair straight from A-B

    The Dungeons and adventures in DDO is mostly top notch, often with multiple ways to solve the dungeon in creative ways..

    Your point 2....can you please link me to an article where developers talk about the 4th edition was created for MMO's rather than what it is, a P&P rpg.. Seems really odd if they created this ruleset as a paper copy to some computer roleplaying rules..

    Again, you have "names" that are taken from the rules, is that enough to call it based of 4th edition rules..even the daylies are not a dayly , Its a skill on a few minutes cooldown..

    DDO wasn't designed in a way that would allow player made content and aside from that interest has wained to much to warrant the development cost. Top that off with Neverwinter online coming out before they could even begin development or implement it taking even more players away and the answer is No, DDO couldn't do their own version of the foundry. 

     

    I found the dungeons in DDO to be very lack luster as did everyone I played D&D with online and offline. We stuck with NWN for our graphical D&D play time. 

     

    As far as point 2, if you actually have any experience with 4th ed then you'd know it's basically an MMO in pen and paper form. No need to link articles or anything, just google it. You will see the same thing said most places you look lol. 

     

    No, not just names but this is part of where the modification comes in. Pen and Paper rules focus on real time (Sort of) while MMO's focus on game time. Instead of refreshing a daily power each game day you have a "bar" that fills up as you fight. Is that enough fo to say it uses nothing more than the same name? The power does the exact same thing, it's use is simply buffed a bit due to the nature of an MMO which plays faster. I mean, sure if you are taking turns and a dungeon run can make up the entire gaming session using a power once a day is fine, but when you are doing 3 or 4 dungeons with real time game play doesn't it make sense for that to change?

    Okay, so lets ignore the fact that all the powers and abilities and such function the same as does the math. Lets say even though everything does the same thing even with the slight modifications to usage we won't count that. 

    Does this also negate the companions, the lore, the ability to create dungeons and campaigns? 

     

    I mean how much like D&D does it have to be before it's considered D&D? Should the screen be nothing more than a hand, dice, pencil, and a piece of paper?

     

    D&D 4th ed is clearly present in Neverwinter, that isn't deniable by anyone that has played Neverwinter or is remotely familiar with 4th ed. 

    Lets also not forget to mention that every Tuesday the lead developers of NWO have a conference call with WotC about content and story.  There was a podcast with Andy Vleasquez where they discussed the Guardian FIghter's Taunt animations being to Magiky and they had to go back to the drawing board several times before the AOE taunt was approved.  That to me shows how well the IP holders hold their subsidary companies to a high standard in creating authentic D&D content.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • DoogiehowserDoogiehowser ParisPosts: 1,873Member
    Originally posted by chelan

    damit. all i really want out of an mmo is 3.5 in an open Faerun world. but it will never happen.

    its amazing b/c DDO has trouble and this one will probably as well. developers will never want to touch another DnD game again.

    the issue? no one has made a *real* DnD game that the actual DnD lifers want to play.

    3.5

    open world

    Faerun

    and while making it may be difficult, the list is pretty short and pretty simple.

    Yeah but how many are there? that would encourage the investors to invest their money into the project. It is business after all.

    "The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
    -Jesse Schell

    "Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
    -Luke McKinney

    image

  • aspekxaspekx Brandon, FLPosts: 2,167Member
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by chelan

    damit. all i really want out of an mmo is 3.5 in an open Faerun world. but it will never happen.

    its amazing b/c DDO has trouble and this one will probably as well. developers will never want to touch another DnD game again.

    the issue? no one has made a *real* DnD game that the actual DnD lifers want to play.

    3.5

    open world

    Faerun

    and while making it may be difficult, the list is pretty short and pretty simple.

    Yeah but how many are there? that would encourage the investors to invest their money into the project. It is business after all.

    fair enough. another reason i won't be seeing this happen.

    i spose i was just referring to some posters talking about each of these games trying to tap the DnD market. and im not sure they've really presented a desirable project is all.

    "There are at least two kinds of games.
    One could be called finite, the other infinite.
    A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
    an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
    Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  • allendale5allendale5 kansas city, MOPosts: 124Member

    Played the beta up to level 20.  It is not what I expected at all, and I was sort of disappointed at first when I saw the cartoony graphics, low quality character design, clunky character movement,  and a host of other dumbed-down features.  

     

    But having said that, I am finding that, strangely, I am enjoying this game.  I am looking forward to the Foundry content the most because I've always known that we, the players, are smarter than and can come up with better content than the developers.

     

    The key to enjoying this game, like other recent entries strapped with meteoric expectations, is to just drop all of your assumptions and approach the game with a completely open mindset; take it for what it is : a free to play WoW decendant that will need to make money in order to survive, and one that gives us the potential for unlimited content and a nice little outlet for our own creativity.  

  • LobotomistLobotomist ZagrebPosts: 5,051Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by chelan

    damit. all i really want out of an mmo is 3.5 in an open Faerun world. but it will never happen.

    its amazing b/c DDO has trouble and this one will probably as well. developers will never want to touch another DnD game again.

    the issue? no one has made a *real* DnD game that the actual DnD lifers want to play.

    3.5

    open world

    Faerun

    and while making it may be difficult, the list is pretty short and pretty simple.

    Pathfinder Online ...

    Lets keep our fingers crossed.

    image

  • AethaerynAethaeryn Kitchener, ONPosts: 1,973Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Originally posted by Lobotomist

     

    Your opinion.  

    Why do people continually need to tell an OP that their post is their "opinion"?  Of course it is.  The earlier poster even says  something like, "that is your opinion and yours alone" like it is a bad thing and then goes on to give his own. . like somehow it is magically going to not just be *his* own.  This is how these things work.  Even facts are chosen (can be cherry picked) based on opinion and personal experience etc. 

    Forums are individuals posting in a public conference.  Every post and every response for the most part is an opinion.  Even if an OP sticks to only facts. . there would be nothing to comment on other than adding your opinion.  Not sure why this has me going crazy right now  :)

    Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,643Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Lobotomist
    Originally posted by chelan

    damit. all i really want out of an mmo is 3.5 in an open Faerun world. but it will never happen.

    its amazing b/c DDO has trouble and this one will probably as well. developers will never want to touch another DnD game again.

    the issue? no one has made a *real* DnD game that the actual DnD lifers want to play.

    3.5

    open world

    Faerun

    and while making it may be difficult, the list is pretty short and pretty simple.

    Pathfinder Online ...

    Lets keep our fingers crossed.

     

    I have given up on Pathfinder Online already due to it's apparent reliance on PvP as content.

    It's early days, so I might change my mind as it develops, but right now that already is a huge divergence from the spirit of the PnP game in my eyes.

  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,934Member Uncommon

    This game is like an opposite of what I am looking for in a MMORPG.

    This isnt even MMORPG according to my standards. It is just another simple action MMO.

    I am not saying it is a bad game, it just isnt for me. There are many people who like this type of game, so it is likely it will have its audience.

     

     

     

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

  • kyssarikyssari Tipton, IAPosts: 142Member

    Considering it is Cryptic I came into this game with very low expectations and not expecting it to have a real DnD feel at all and with that in mind I've been having a lot of fun with it. I agree the character models and animations need a lot of work and are nearly unbearable in some cases but the enviromental graphics are more than I expected from a Cryptic game though I also agree with another poster there is some excessive bloom and blur and room for improvement in general.

     

    I pretty much came into the game expecting a fully action based dungeon crawler with half decent lore and an extremely limiting Astral Diamond system. What I got so far is a fully action based dungeon crawler with actually pretty good lore and so far what looks to be a good bit better AD system than their previous games. That being said however I obviously haven't reached end game to see how the AD system really pans out in the end so one can only hope it doesn't turn out like their other games at end game.

     

    Anyone coming into this game expecting an epic DnD experience like Baldurs Gate 2 (totally my fav DnD Video Game) or the real DnD Universe in general your going to be sorely dissapointed for sure, at least when it comes to the game mechanics. The lores great but it plays totally different from any and all DnD and the challenge and immersion isn't really there either.

     

    This goes live it'll be great to fill in the gaps when I need a break from Vanguard which I've been enjoying immensely since I really picked it up.

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,643Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by kyssari

    Anyone coming into this game expecting an epic DnD experience like Baldurs Gate 2 (totally my fav DnD Video Game) or the real DnD Universe in general your going to be sorely dissapointed for sure

     

    I would also add Neverwinter Nights to that list...

    Which is gonna make for a lot of dissapointed players, seeing as this is being sold as a 'spiritual successor' to that game and trading on it's good name.

  • koboldfodderkoboldfodder Danbury, DEPosts: 390Member Uncommon

    Every time a post like this is made someone ends up saying "the core of D&D is dungeon crawling and story telling" which, of course, is totally wrong.

     

    PnP D&D is not about dungeon crawling or story telling.  It is about problem solving in a group format.  The DM poses problems and the players use their creativity to solve the prolbme.  Attack a goblin or sneak by him, or do somehting totally bizarre...the rules are there as a foundation which you build upon.

     

    You do not have to set forth in one Dungeon to have a great PnP experience, nor do you have to have a long, drawn out story to have a great experience.  But you do need to have obstacles that need to be overcome.

     

    That is the core of D&D.  And when you look at Neverwinter, you only see a couple of problems  It is just a hack and slash game and the only problems are the number of mobs or the attacks they use and how you avoid them, and traps.  That is about it.

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by kyssari

    Anyone coming into this game expecting an epic DnD experience like Baldurs Gate 2 (totally my fav DnD Video Game) or the real DnD Universe in general your going to be sorely dissapointed for sure

     

    I would also add Neverwinter Nights to that list...

    Which is gonna make for a lot of dissapointed players, seeing as this is being sold as a 'spiritual successor' to that game and trading on it's good name.

    Links dear chap? when asserting something so negative towards the developers it helps having links so you don't look like an ass (just general politeness really).

    image
  • CallinCallin Florence, SCPosts: 99Member
    Originally posted by koboldfodder

    Every time a post like this is made someone ends up saying "the core of D&D is dungeon crawling and story telling" which, of course, is totally wrong.

     

    PnP D&D is not about dungeon crawling or story telling.  It is about problem solving in a group format.  The DM poses problems and the players use their creativity to solve the prolbme.  Attack a goblin or sneak by him, or do somehting totally bizarre...the rules are there as a foundation which you build upon.

     

    You do not have to set forth in one Dungeon to have a great PnP experience, nor do you have to have a long, drawn out story to have a great experience.  But you do need to have obstacles that need to be overcome.

     

    That is the core of D&D.  And when you look at Neverwinter, you only see a couple of problems  It is just a hack and slash game and the only problems are the number of mobs or the attacks they use and how you avoid them, and traps.  That is about it.

    Dont forget customization of your character. If you want to be a Full Plate wearing Wizard go for it. Ya know. Yes i know limitations of game engines and design and "BALANCE" make that sort of free form impossible but to totally ditch it is ludicrous. Even in 4th edition there is customization within the Class and Build you choose. Even goin by just the "Core" books. So dont tell me that what they are trying to pass off is remotely close to the spirit of DnD.

     

    Other than that Kobold has it pretty much on the head. 

     

    Also above all is the camaraderie. If it wasnt for great friends i doubt i would still be playing DnD or any PnP for that matter lol. 

  • TalinTalin West Babylon, NYPosts: 824Member
    If someone had added Foundry to DDO, why would Neverwinter even need to exist?
  • KalmarthKalmarth Lake Havasu City, AZPosts: 443Member

    As a D&D vet, (over 25 years playing) its been dead since the end of 2nd edition, 3rd was not bad but they kept Over powering and making it so simple that it became a joke to play, hell most of my player refuse to play 3rd or up, and make joke charaters that are OP just to prove how bad it can be, Necro that can summon 40 half hit dice skeletons that when they die explode doing 1d8, so if you kill one you take 40d8 if not your getting wailed on by 40 mobs doing 1d6, there are no checks and balances.

    For Neverwinter, I was excited about this game then saw the 4th edition combat in it, pretty much just nailed the coffin shut and went back to PnP and table top.

  • rodingorodingo Posts: 2,346Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Talin
    If someone had added Foundry to DDO, why would Neverwinter even need to exist?

    Different setting.  DDO is set to the world of Eberron which is sort of steampunkish.  Neverwinter is set to the Forgotten Realms.  I however prefer the World of Greyhawk (Temple of Elemental Evil) but Bioware and R.A. Salvatore have kept Forgotten Realms in the spotlight for the longest time so it seems to the be the setting that most are familiar with.

    "If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member

    There is already another DnD MMO for those who prefer the 3.5 ruleset, tab targetting and slower paced combat. Not sure why you 'purists' expected another one?

    For what its worth, I am an old school table top DnD fan, and a MMO vet of 15 years, and I think the game is amazing and has lots of potential.

    Once the Foundry content kicks in and the other classes are released, this is going to keep me occupied for a very long time.

  • GravargGravarg Harker Heights, TXPosts: 3,332Member Uncommon
    Were people really expecting a "real" D&D game?  I knew after watching the very first video it was going to be like DDO, and not like D&D.  I must have some supernatural gift to be able to see what a game is going to be like from watching videos or hearing developers describe thier game...I'm superman woot!  It seems with every new MMO, there's always a bunch of people that just don't get what the game is about.  I couldn't play a second of it, and I pretty much already know how to play it, what it's like, and if I'm going to like the majority of it.  I guess I'm the only one with these super powers :S
  • KalmarthKalmarth Lake Havasu City, AZPosts: 443Member
    Originally posted by rodingo
    Originally posted by Talin
    If someone had added Foundry to DDO, why would Neverwinter even need to exist?

    Different setting.  DDO is set to the world of Eberron which is sort of steampunkish.  Neverwinter is set to the Forgotten Realms.  I however prefer the World of Greyhawk (Temple of Elemental Evil) but Bioware and R.A. Salvatore have kept Forgotten Realms in the spotlight for the longest time so it seems to the be the setting that most are familiar with.

    Still love Greyhawk :)

  • tharkthark FalunPosts: 1,147Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by evilastro

    There is already another DnD MMO for those who prefer the 3.5 ruleset, tab targetting and slower paced combat. Not sure why you 'purists' expected another one?

    For what its worth, I am an old school table top DnD fan, and a MMO vet of 15 years, and I think the game is amazing and has lots of potential.

    Once the Foundry content kicks in and the other classes are released, this is going to keep me occupied for a very long time.

     DDO is not a tab targeting MMO ..It's an action formula, If your sword hit's something target or not..It hits, if your dice roll hit's that is..

  • LobotomistLobotomist ZagrebPosts: 5,051Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by evilastro

    There is already another DnD MMO for those who prefer the 3.5 ruleset, tab targetting and slower paced combat. Not sure why you 'purists' expected another one?

    For what its worth, I am an old school table top DnD fan, and a MMO vet of 15 years, and I think the game is amazing and has lots of potential.

    Once the Foundry content kicks in and the other classes are released, this is going to keep me occupied for a very long time.

    And what can Foundry bring ?

    No secret doors

    No vertical element of any kind (climbing)

    No skill checks (in fact no skills at all)

    No locked - lockpicking

    No strenght - strenght checks

    Or any other kind of checks.

     

    Its like saying : You can build anything with lego" , than giving someone unlimited number of Pirate hats ,and palm tree pieces.

    The proper building blocks are just not there

     

    All you can do is be creative with texts - well YAWN to that

    image

  • LobotomistLobotomist ZagrebPosts: 5,051Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Antiquated
    Originally posted by Lobotomist

    Back when Turbine launched DDO , one of biggest complains and failures with original D&D crowd (the one they hoped to win over) was the action combat nature of the game.

    You see D&D is tactical turn based game , while DDO was one of the first "action" MMOs

    Assuming that's so; wouldn't MMOs (not known for being turn-based) be the very worst place to seek it?

    Who do you blame for this basic logical interrupt? The game designers, or the players?

    Good question.

     

    I would blame developers for misunderstanding D&D material.

     

    Turn based is not necessity. NWN1 (and 2) show perfectly good real time implementation for group and mini MMO enviroment.

    Also , you can very well integrate D&D mechanic in MMO - as it will be evident when (and if) Pathfinder online launches.

    image

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    Originally posted by Lobotomist
    Originally posted by evilastro

    There is already another DnD MMO for those who prefer the 3.5 ruleset, tab targetting and slower paced combat. Not sure why you 'purists' expected another one?

    For what its worth, I am an old school table top DnD fan, and a MMO vet of 15 years, and I think the game is amazing and has lots of potential.

    Once the Foundry content kicks in and the other classes are released, this is going to keep me occupied for a very long time.

    And what can Foundry bring ?

    No secret doors

    No vertical element of any kind (climbing)

    No skill checks (in fact no skills at all)

    No locked - lockpicking

    No strenght - strenght checks

    Or any other kind of checks.

     

    Its like saying : You can build anything with lego" , than giving someone unlimited number of Pirate hats ,and palm tree pieces.

    The proper building blocks are just not there

     

    All you can do is be creative with texts - well YAWN to that

     I have done Foundry dungeons with hidden doors and climbing in the form of jump puzzles.

    The other stuff is boring and irrelevant. Who gives a crap about strength rolls? Will that make the dungeon more fun for you?

    You can be creative with layouts, texts, mobs and scripts. What else do you really expect from a video game?

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Lobotomist
    Originally posted by evilastro

    There is already another DnD MMO for those who prefer the 3.5 ruleset, tab targetting and slower paced combat. Not sure why you 'purists' expected another one?

    For what its worth, I am an old school table top DnD fan, and a MMO vet of 15 years, and I think the game is amazing and has lots of potential.

    Once the Foundry content kicks in and the other classes are released, this is going to keep me occupied for a very long time.

    And what can Foundry bring ?

    No secret doors

    No vertical element of any kind (climbing)

    No skill checks (in fact no skills at all)

    No locked - lockpicking

    No strenght - strenght checks

    Or any other kind of checks.

     

    Its like saying : You can build anything with lego" , than giving someone unlimited number of Pirate hats ,and palm tree pieces.

    The proper building blocks are just not there

     

    All you can do is be creative with texts - well YAWN to that

    as someone who has used the foundry all in red are not true and can be done.. you can do a LOT with the foundry(the current missions hardly show what you can do with it at all).. but why not just bash it without actually using it.. seems about right for this place

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    Originally posted by thark
    Originally posted by evilastro

    There is already another DnD MMO for those who prefer the 3.5 ruleset, tab targetting and slower paced combat. Not sure why you 'purists' expected another one?

    For what its worth, I am an old school table top DnD fan, and a MMO vet of 15 years, and I think the game is amazing and has lots of potential.

    Once the Foundry content kicks in and the other classes are released, this is going to keep me occupied for a very long time.

     DDO is not a tab targeting MMO ..It's an action formula, If your sword hit's something target or not..It hits, if your dice roll hit's that is..

     It most certainly is tab targetting. The fact that you don't need to target something to swing your weapon doesn't change that fact. In Everquest 2 I can use AEs without targetting anything, is that not a tab target game now?

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