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Originally posted by vocah1234 I started playing mmo's years back and have to agree. The earlier pre 2004 mmo's where better. since then not much has been able to hold my attention except lotro. But when companies like Funcom release a steaming pile of crap like secret world with bugs etc. and take forever to fix anything, eventually caving into the FTP option 6 months in. It really makes it hard to like the genre at all. Sick of being ripped of by promises from dev's that they dont follow through on and sick of cash grabbing companies. When did mmo's go from being a fun, group based adventure to a half working, rushed money grab I have gone back to playing single player games and non mmo multiplayer games and wont be forking out any more cash on mmo's any time soon or until a games proven to be good. Throwing away $250 on a lifetime account for TSW based on promises was the last nail in the mmo coffin for me.
Old MMO's were released in far worse states IMO.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Originally posted by vocah1234 I started playing mmo's years back and have to agree. The earlier pre 2004 mmo's where better. since then not much has been able to hold my attention except lotro. But when companies like Funcom release a steaming pile of crap like secret world with bugs etc. and take forever to fix anything, eventually caving into the FTP option 6 months in. It really makes it hard to like the genre at all. Sick of being ripped of by promises from dev's that they dont follow through on and sick of cash grabbing companies. When did mmo's go from being a fun, group based adventure to a half working, rushed money grab I have gone back to playing single player games and non mmo multiplayer games and wont be forking out any more cash on mmo's any time soon or until a games proven to be good. Throwing away $250 on a lifetime account for TSW based on promises was the last nail in the mmo coffin for me.
While that may be true, it took you months to even think about finding another game to play.
Nowdays you can bust through the content in 2 weeks with casual gaming only to get blocked by artificial content gates.
Most of the MMORPGs nowdays are piss easy and that's not only because "players have gotten better".
Originally posted by Psychow Originally posted by Cephus404 That's about as silly as saying "for automobile enthusiasts who enjoy crank-starting their cars, there is nothing and that's surprising!" No it isn't, these are just people who haven't moved on with the times. We should expect there to be little or nothing for them, they represent a minuscule minority.
Yet they are the loudest and first to attack on any game as being utter crap because it wasn't made just for them...I wonder if the active MMORPG.com community represents close to 100% of them...it's possible....
MMORPG.com and other similar forums, yes. The people who enjoy these games don't have time to sit on forums, they're too busy playing the games so the forums end up looking very lopsided.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots moreRelatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots moreNow Playing: NoneHope: None
Originally posted by nate1980 Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by Loke666 I have a feeling that the genre will be very different 5 years from now.
The "genre" is already very different. I think people have lost sight of games that are like MMOs, but not quite, and MMO ideas going into other genre.
If you use a strict definition of what a MMO is (by its traditional characteristics), then the genre will never really change, because you will just classify something new NOT a MMO, and thus outside of the genre. That is the problem here. People are too narrow.
If you include games that are like MMOs, or similar to part of MMOs, or take MMO features, then the "genre" has been changing and expanding. Some examples:
- ARPG with MMO featuers. Traditionally, ARPG are like MMOs anyway (focus on combat & progression). D3 add AH & crafting. PoE adds persistent zones. Personally i think these games are very close to combat centric MMOs, and don't evaluate them differently.
- MOBA and other instanced based pvp games (like WOT, and Star Conflict) .. essentially takes MMO progression, arena combat, and focus on that.
- "world war games" like PS2 .. essentially take the open world pvp idea and runs with it.
- instanced pve games (DDO, vindictice, SD gundam ...) .. just do dungeon runs, and nothing else.
- Destiny is going to be a new kind of online game with some MMO features (i.e. shared world shooter)
You're missing the point of what makes a MMO a MMO. MMO is the acronym that symbolizes that this game will have a persistant world and that you'll be able to play with thousands of other players on the same server. That's all it takes to earn the MMO tag. Now, the RPG, FPS, RTS, and etc tags that go along with it hold the same requirements to hold them as their single player counterparts.
The problem many people on this site have is that developers are copying features from other games, making new games feel exactly alike older games. They're mistakingly thinking that those features is what defines a MMORPG, which is wrong. The term was defined well over a decade ago and hasn't changed. If developers want to breathe life into the MMO genre, they'll have to innovate and stop copying the same features from previous games.
Oh i didn't miss the point. I just think the point is crap. Narrowly defining MMO like that *is* the problem. That is close minded, and not open to innovation and change.
Personally i don't care if a game is a MMO by that narrow definition, or by any definition. If it is fun, i will play it.
Look at what is successful and fun .. many are not MMOs by your definition, but have *some* MMO features. That is the future.
Persistent world is not required to have fun. TO play with thousand of players at the same time is not required to have fun. I can match with as many players in D3, as in WOW but D3 is not a MMO. Why would i care if it is fun?
Yeah well OP, join the club of eq vets who feel the same. Only thing to do is to accept that things changed and there will likely never be another virtual world game like eq. Don't compare all new games to eq because then everything will dissapoint you, infact dont even call them mmorpgs, just think of them as games :P. Then you might start enjoying what the new games are, and maybe find new genre or crossgenre that you would find fun.
Either that or win the big lottery and buy out Vanguard and spend 100m on reviving it hehe.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
Originally posted by Arclan Originally posted by Psychow So, to summarize: WoW is the Anti-Christ of MMOs...
As tempting as it is to blame WoW, we must blame the bottom-feeding competitors who failed, utterly, to determine exactly why Wow did so well.
Humor, cartoon graphics, lowest possible hardware specs and Chuck Norris
Secrets of Dragon?s Spine Trailer.. ! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwT9cFVQCMw
Best MMOs ever played: Ultima, EvE, SW Galaxies, Age of Conan, The Secret Worldhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2X_SbZCHpc&t=21s.
.The Return of ELITE !
Originally posted by tixylix So I realise, this genre is dead and the games I strive for aren't part of it.
If you are looking for something not cartoony that has a steep learning curve and never insults your intelligence, you should check out The Secret World. Sure it has "kill 10 zombie" missions, but you have to learn the combat somehow. And not everyone likes the hard puzzle missions - there are people who use complete walkthroughs - even though that's one of the best kind of missions in the game. It's super gorgeous on DX11 and still pretty damn good looking on DX9. And the devs are committed to a mostly horizontal progression model.
If you like gritty settings, it's great. If you like being startled, it's great. If you're tired of having your intelligence insulted over and over (I played WoW from '05, so I sure was), this is the one. It's not expensive and it's pay once play forever, which is great because it's a new MMO and doesn't have as much content as older games. If you want to try it out, PM me your e-mail and I can get you a trial key.
Originally posted by Cephus404 Originally posted by Psychow Originally posted by Cephus404 That's about as silly as saying "for automobile enthusiasts who enjoy crank-starting their cars, there is nothing and that's surprising!" No it isn't, these are just people who haven't moved on with the times. We should expect there to be little or nothing for them, they represent a minuscule minority.
Yeah, it's pretty clear which camp you hail from.
Me, I'm in the group that still enjoys MMORPG's, just wish they'd start making them like they use to.
"Winning" at EVE Online since May, 2007!
In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™ "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by Aerowyn Originally posted by Psychow Originally posted by DavisFlight Originally posted by Psychow OP, it's hard to like anything if all you think of any game is "just another WoW clone" Try going in positive. Maybe WoW and some of the other themepark type MMOs aren't as bad as you envision. Nobody is going to make the perfect game that you dream about. So either alter your tastes or move on.
No, they're pretty awful. Like, mental abortion game design wise.
Nobody is asking for a perfect MMO, just a decent one.
Man, telling someone to alter their tastes... these kinds of apologists need to go.
Then by all means, continue to complain and dream of your decent game. Just be aware that the majority of players aren't as miserable as the old vets. Some people actually enjoy the current crop of MMOs. Some people never played UO or SWG...in fact MOST haven't, so they are not aware that their current MMOs are souless treadmill garbage games that are just cash grabs from greedy lazy developers.
or theres people like me who played AC, UO, EQ1, meridian, SWG and still find enjoyment from some of the current crop MMOs
This. I play a game for enjoyment sake. While I agree with the vet's sentiment that developers need to get back to putting more emphasis on the social aspect of MMOs, the games are still very fun to play. Course I'm the guy that loves classic rock while also enjoying jazz and classical music. Some people just have a very limited range on what the find enjoyable.
Currently Playing: Star Wars The Old Republic
Originally posted by Praetalus I think the biggest issues with MMO's are the types of people they attract. MMO fans are the worst. We live to jump on the forums and shit on game after game making sure that the current game WE like is the "best". And anyone with a different opinion gets shit on. I think its getting to a point where we're so jaded that we don't WANT to like a game.. I think most of us actually look for things wrong just so we can bitch about it and talk about the good ol' days. I'm sick of it.. which is why I chose to dail it down.. pick a game and just invest. I finally gave up my search for the "perfect" MMO and just decided to have fun. Just invest in a game and take my time with it exploring the world and getting into the lore. For this, I picked eq2 to settle down with due to the shear amount of content. I'm having the most fun I had in years. Moving at a slower pace, crafting, questing (and actually reading them lol). With the new mercenary system, I can even run shit when some friends aren't availabe. I do prefer to play with others, but it's cool to have an option when I can't sleep and log on at 4am lol. I think if people lower their defenses and just try to appreciate shit for what it is.. things may get better. It's like watching a movie about super heros. Don't pick it apart like the nerds we are.. just enjoy it for what it is. Ya know? It worked for me and I'm actually having fun again. I hope you all find that fun in MMO's again..
Your argument that the community is to blame may hold water if some, if not a lot of us, didn't complain or much even use forums in the early days of the genre. I can speak for myself at least, I never once posted on a gaming forum or even read them when I was playing DAoC for years or SWG. I enjoyed my time in those games and didn't have any complaints. My complaints stem from what WoW brought to the genre, that changed not only the future of games after that, but also the games I loved. WoW brought the solo quest grind experience. Many of us that loved this genre before WoW didn't like that particular change among others. I'll say this again, as I've said in many other threads over the years; most of what is called a quest in MMORPG's would make for a really boring book, because they aren't quests at all. They're just menial tasks and chores that the NPC's should be able to take care of themselves. Quests are Epic in nature, not "deliver Susies pie to Michael after you collect the ingredients for it first."
If you don't enjoy solo chore grinding, then we can't take the approach you've done. I used to be impressed with the amount of content in EQ2 until I played it and found out that the majority of the "quests" were not even worthy of the name quests.
Originally posted by Cephus404 Originally posted by MMOExposed I said is in my thread before. The genre isn't dying. It's just that the mindset has changed and developers aren't changing with the new mindset. the same music that was in the 80s and 90s isn't popular anymore in 2013 like it once was. Why? Because mindset of consumer changed. What's so hard to understand about that?
No, developers *ARE* changing with the new mindset. The problem is, the old-timers aren't changing, they're stubornly clinging to the old ways that just aren't workable in the modern world. MMOs, like every other genre, are changing to what the majority of paying customers playing that genre want them to be.
When my father was growing up, classic rock was the music young people listened to. His parents listend to something earlier than that and thought classic rock was trash. When I was growing up, alternative rock was what was popular and it's what I still a big fan of. Before I graduated High School rap became popular and still is. Am I supposed to quit loving rock and become a fan of rap to "get with the times?"
My point is that people like what they like, and to expect them to like something different because that's what is popular/what the masses like is ignorant.
The only thing that is required in a MMORPG is that the world is persistant and thousands of other players can play online together. Early MMORPG developers knew this and each released MMORPG in the early days were different from one another and shown innovation, creativity, and imagination. Since WoW released, developers seem to think that MMORPG's are defined by a set of features, such as battlegrounds, arenas, quests, AH's, talent trees, and etc. Some recent games have released with some inventive ideas, but mainly stuch to those features WoW made popular. Peoples gripes is that the developers have forgotten what the definition of a MMORPG is, and instead decided to copy previous games into oblivion. Developers need to forget about copying previous MMORPG's, and instead get creative, inventive, and innovate.
Originally posted by Cephus404 Originally posted by Cuathon MMOs no longer represent a style of game I want to play. They are dead to me.
Then by all means, go play something else. Move on. That's what healthy people do. However, there's a vocal group of people who hate everything that modern MMOs are, yet continue to stick around and whine about how much they hate them. Get a different hobby! Go find something you actually enjoy doing!
Not sure why this is so difficult for some people.
Maybe because MMORPG's are something they are passionate about and this is their chosen hobby? A hobby that perhaps was changed from something they loved into something they can hardly recognize? Believe it or not, developers read gaming forums to keep tabs of what people are raving for. If everyone just quit the genre and never looked back, the developers won't know what players are looking for in a MMORPG. It's better to provide constructive feedback for developers and discuss new ideas, than to just quit and walk away.
Originally posted by nate1980 Believe it or not, developers read gaming forums to keep tabs of what people are raving for.
Indeed, and that led to the great solo player revolution of 2003-2006 (the one everyone blames Blizzard for, despite the fact that it actually began before WoW, and overtook pretty much the entire industry over the same time span).
I wonder what the raving will lead to this time. Overcorrection, if history serves as any useful guide.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Originally posted by Bladestrom What single player revolution, there was only single player to start with, then consoles and mmorgs took off (through wow). Then blizzard changed direction at the beginning of wotlk to dumb down content and aim for multiple demographics, the rest is history.
Well, revisionist history, but history anyway.
Perhaps you didn't play before wow? Starting sometime around 2002, 2003 every game desginer on the planet started working toward "more soloability", as a conscious decision. It generally involved lower time-to-caps (and we saw leveling rates increase across a half dozen titles between 02 and 06). The opening of games like CoH (entirely soloable from 1 to cap) predated WoW. And, of course, it was already clearly in Blizzard's mind from the moment the doors opened.
EQ2 is a good example. began "ezmode-ing" from virtually the moment it opened the doors. As did its parent, EQ1 (joined the parade once it was very clear where its declining population was headed-couple years further down the road here, 05 06).
Then we get the expansions players bitched so much about, the NGEs and the TOAs...(your pardon, ToA also predated WoW).
The rest, indeed, is history.
Jacobs is here, let's ask him how much he remembers about the popular game design buzzwords starting in '02 and beyond.
Originally posted by Antiquated Originally posted by nate1980 Believe it or not, developers read gaming forums to keep tabs of what people are raving for.
MMOs went from the original "virtual world concept" to "go out and kill everything that moves, we wrap some quest stories around going out and killing everything".
Recent research has shown that empirical evidence for globalization of corporate innovation is very limited and as a corollary the market for technologies is shrinking. As a world leader, it's important for America to provide systematic research grants for our scientists. I believe strongly there will always be a need for us to have a well-articulated innovation policy with emphasis on human resource development. Thank you.
That being said I believe that as the age of the average MMO gamer increases the more jaded in general the outlook becomes. I do not enjoy in as much depth things I did ten years ago while I tend to do things more often now that I didn't back then. i.e. playing video games vs fishing.
Originally posted by bliss14 Recent research has shown that empirical evidence for globalization of corporate innovation is very limited and as a corollary the market for technologies is shrinking. As a world leader, it's important for America to provide systematic research grants for our scientists. I believe strongly there will always be a need for us to have a well-articulated innovation policy with emphasis on human resource development. Thank you. That being said I believe that as the age of the average MMO gamer increases the more jaded in general the outlook becomes. I do not enjoy in as much depth things I did ten years ago while I tend to do things more often now that I didn't back then. i.e. playing video games vs fishing.
Frank the Tank couldn't have said it any better.
Sadly, I've been leaning toward the same conclusion as the OP, recently.
What I expect, what I yearn for from a MMORPG is unlikely to every be fully delivered on by developers. Why? Because what I want is highly dependent on the players, not the developers. And as I've come to realize, when it comes to gameplay, what I desire is the antithesis of your standard MMORPGamer.
Simply put, ever since I played my first MMORPG (City of Heroes at launch; I'm not a comic book fan, but the promise of the travel powers alone was enough to draw me in), I've been looking for a larger scale version of what we had with private Neverwinter Nights (1; I never could get into 2, despite it being quite similar) roleplaying servers. Persistant, privately run worlds with constant GM action and likeminded playerbases who cared more about storytelling and world design than having the biggest epeen to use in pvp.
Fully dynamic content, full of romance, suspense, drama, political intrigue, all communally crafted by a likeminded playerbase that allowed you to fully immerse yourself in the game.
Unfortunately, the Skinner box model of game design that WoW elevated to an art form is unlikely to be dropped by developers for a long time; it's simply too profitable.
I realize that my reasons are unlikely to match most here, but I do wonder if it's the players as a collective group, rather than the developers, that are cause much of the dissatisfaction we see in communities like this.
i like grinde but i hate quests
Concentrate on enjoying yourself, and not on why I shouldn't enjoy myself.
I was going to write a long rant of agreement.
Decided to just agree and leave it there.
I liked Vanilla WoW, I thought it was one of the best MMOs ever, I just think Blizzard have gone totally the wrong direction and it's a bloated mess that is more like fan service than a virtual world now. It's all the poor clones over the years that I hate and now The Elder Scrolls is going to become another one, instead of making a unique MMO like The Elder scrolls could have been.
That said there has only been one MMO that has stuck to it's original design and well managed, that is EVE Online. It would have been so easy to dumb that down and make it into a WoW clone in space like all the others. Instead EVE has stuck by it and become one of the most popular MMOs out there with 500k subs because they've done what they have done really well.
Imagine if SOE stuck with the original idea of SWG and updated the graphics a bit, it would be massively popular now because it would have had so many years to polish and add content and would have had a massive hardcore following. The WoW clone market is saturated, people don't want it, Dayz alone has proved people want harder games. The MMO market isn't a highly popular one with casuals, it doesn't draw the console crowd, it draws mainly hardcore PC gamers.
Originally posted by Kyleran Originally posted by Cephus404 MMORPG.com and other similar forums, yes. The people who enjoy these games don't have time to sit on forums, they're too busy playing the games so the forums end up looking very lopsided.
I've made it very clear that I don't play MMOs anymore, although it isn't becase there aren't good games out there, it's because I have to play with a shit-ton of assholes whenever I do play and it's a lot more fun to play SP games when I have a chance (playing Far Cry 3 right now) than to deal with the immature, race-to-endgame idiots that I'd get stuck with otherwise.
I don't want them to make games like they used to, I just wish people would be better than they are today.