I'm sorry, but 'taunt' is a grandfathered mechanic meant for a simplified PvE setting. While there are ways you can shoehorn it into PvP, it really doesn't have a role in a PvP environment. At best, it could be a debuff or forced target drop, but it really doesn't solve ANY of the problems tanks typically have in PvP.
The real solution is simple, and has already been done by multiple games with target-based combat. Give tanks the bulk of CC abilities / mobility. This makes tanks hard to avoid (kite), and difficult to ignore (since they're interrupting your abilities constantly, thus reducing your effectiveness).
Unfortunately, few people seem to understand how to handle tanks that are actually viable in a PvP setting, and will rage nerf them into the ground.
No you wouldn't attack anything unless the tank is standing in front of you.
Intercept ability in DAOC did this exact thing and was simplier implementation that changing someones target. Tank just takes next hit instead of their target. Solved.
In large fights WAR taunt is absolutely broken, target swapping mechnanic is worse can you imagine what will happen in 50 vs 50 fight with couple dozen tanks on each side.. /quit
Distinction between melee dps and tanks is just not needed if you have no pve in game. Just have couple different melee classes per realm with a bit different flavor. For example Polearmsman with single target and aoe specs and ?? with shield and sword and Zweihander spec lines
QFT, you don't want target switching mechanics as a soft cc. Put taunts on styles like daoc for the very little pve there is and leave it at that.
I've always liked the guard and intercept abilities in daoc. Tank jumps in front of blow to take the hit or block it.
Now if a person is chasing someone who is chasing someone, there are better things to do that forcing them to change target. Tanks usually have disarm. Disarm that person going after your healer, now they can't hit. Make them fumble, or if you're close enough, often there were attacks, especially from behind that had a snare, or a stun from a shield bash.
You guys are just talking about other abilities a "peeler / melee support class" might have... Labelling it taunt is inaccurate and don't know why you have to have an ability called "taunt"
Stop calling it taunt and throw around ideas, DAOC's taunt system is still unmatched imo, having an ability to force someone to attack you is forcing them to not control their character ( in a different way than stun/mezz ) and not in a good way.
Please don't make this game just a mash of pushing people back, pulling them around, forcing them to do things... There is only so much CC that is needed.... I don't think you guys understand because it seems all the games you played didn't have mezz / stun / root system. WIth these there are plenty of tactical choices to stop someone to get heals off, etc.
But continue idea mashing, just stop calling it taunt lol
Call it Fruit Salad, does that make you feel better? You sound very upset.
You talk about all these other abilities, why not taunt? We understand it makes you very emotional to have it, but why not other than your opinion on it? I don't want over powered stealth but I suspect will we end up with invisistealth.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Originally posted by PerfArt Agreed, Van. Taunting can serve a purpose if designed for RvR from the ground up. A way for tanks to protect people can exist outside of shield bashing.
Example: if you have an ability (taunt) activated, every time that you strike an enemy, they target you despite what their current target is. Perhaps Taunt mode could reduce your damage dealt by these strike to reflect that you aren't going for killing blows, but trying to save your ally.
They could keep manually targetting after each hit, but tgeir attacks would A) be slowed and be likely to hit you oftentimes instead.
Kinda cool.
Clever way to implement taunt. Another simple way would be to force the person being taunted to target the taunter for a specified period of time, maybe 2 seconds (give or take depending on the speed of the combat). This pulls them off someone long enough that a well coordinated heal could turn the tide of the battle. Could even use AoE taunts that last 1 second, once again used to provide a comrade with a slight break in damage received, used for escape or survival. Probably have to put diminishing returns on this to prevent tanks from chain taunting a single target.
There are definitely ways that a taunt mechanic could work in PvP.
That is how it worked in EQ2. A tank used a hate modifying ability (don't want to use "taunt" anymore) and the target of the ability was forced to target the tank for 3 seconds. If overly used the tank could end up with too many people hitting them and would die. I just think it is a good idea that can be built upon with other damage reduction/shield support type abilites.
I think it also add an extra bit of the fun we need in a game. It's so easy to dog pile on a squishy but this is a nice addition.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
You guys are just talking about other abilities a "peeler / melee support class" might have... Labelling it taunt is inaccurate and don't know why you have to have an ability called "taunt"
Stop calling it taunt and throw around ideas, DAOC's taunt system is still unmatched imo, having an ability to force someone to attack you is forcing them to not control their character ( in a different way than stun/mezz ) and not in a good way.
Please don't make this game just a mash of pushing people back, pulling them around, forcing them to do things... There is only so much CC that is needed.... I don't think you guys understand because it seems all the games you played didn't have mezz / stun / root system. WIth these there are plenty of tactical choices to stop someone to get heals off, etc.
But continue idea mashing, just stop calling it taunt lol
Call it Fruit Salad, does that make you feel better? You sound very upset.
You talk about all these other abilities, why not taunt? We understand it makes you very emotional to have it, but why not other than your opinion on it? I don't want over powered stealth but I suspect will we end up with invisistealth.
I am upset, because there are a lot of people on these forums throwing around crazy ideas without thinking of all the ramifications of them first, and it scares me to see some of them in this game.
I talk about other abilities and think I've already described the why behind them already, and the why I don't like forced target swaps.
Again like a lot of people have said Stealth isn't over powered, you move slow as balls, get no speed bonuses and basically rarely have a chance to win unless you get your opening. Granted openings are generally are too high, but that's no reason to kill invisistealth as you call it.
How is causing someone to change targets different than causing them to be inactive, or causing them to be dead? I mean in the sense of inconvenience, not literally. Obviously they are different in a literal sense. But everything you do in rvr is designed to cause enemies inconvenience and/or piss them off. Why the vehement hatred for this one concept but not others?
It just seems like you hate it because it forces someone to do something, but every offensive action does that... forces you to remain immobile, or to take damage, or to be debuffed, ect.
Again, honest question. Not being a smartass here. Maybe I am just missing something you haven't mentioned.
Because it's a crappy form of soft CC. Disarm makes sense as long as the weapon isn't visible on the character for the duration, stuns make sense, I just don't get "YOU HAVE TO TARGET THIS PERSON FOR 2 SECONDS" it feels too forced.Might as well give the tank Mind Control... There are a lot more logical better ways to give a class thats protecting his healers.
If you've ever played DAOC and played with BodyGuard it makes as much sense as that. Standing in front of someone with nothing in the way not being able to attack.
I have indeed played a tank with bodyguard on in daoc. I was thinking if more on-the-fly methods of cc for tanks. But as you state that it's a "crappy form of cc" as your reasoning, I guess we can just agree to disagree.
Originally posted by PerfArt I have indeed played a tank with bodyguard on in daoc. I was thinking if more on-the-fly methods of cc for tanks. But as you state that it's a "crappy form of cc" as your reasoning, I guess we can just agree to disagree.
The core concept of what you want changed is the same method of soft CC bodyguard came from.
Which was one of the most terribly implimented skill/ability from TOA. I really want to avoid these mistakes in this game, I do believe these things won't be a part of CU, but I will do my part to educate people that arn't seeing the illogical nature of abilities like this.
Like i've said, plenty of other ways to add abilities to protect support without these fail soft cc abilities
Different strokes for different folks. I will probably be happy with whatever CSE implements. One person's logic is another's illogic. I am sure it'll be fun either way!
I hear a lot of outlandish ideas thrown around here that scare the crap out of me to the point I prob wouldn't play.
This isn't close to one of them, but it stems from one of my biggest beefs with ToA ( imo ) so it would sting a lot to have these types of things implimented.
My biggest fear started when people talked about FPS target system, that was scary. Don't think they got the support to get a Darkfall playstyle, but I cringe when hearing it.
I personally didn't like the way the taunt/detaunt system worked in WAR. I thought it felt clunky and forced. I'd much prefer a Gaurd/Block system similar to DAoC but with larger range.
You guys are just talking about other abilities a "peeler / melee support class" might have... Labelling it taunt is inaccurate and don't know why you have to have an ability called "taunt"
Stop calling it taunt and throw around ideas, DAOC's taunt system is still unmatched imo, having an ability to force someone to attack you is forcing them to not control their character ( in a different way than stun/mezz ) and not in a good way.
Please don't make this game just a mash of pushing people back, pulling them around, forcing them to do things... There is only so much CC that is needed.... I don't think you guys understand because it seems all the games you played didn't have mezz / stun / root system. WIth these there are plenty of tactical choices to stop someone to get heals off, etc.
But continue idea mashing, just stop calling it taunt lol
Call it Fruit Salad, does that make you feel better? You sound very upset.
You talk about all these other abilities, why not taunt? We understand it makes you very emotional to have it, but why not other than your opinion on it? I don't want over powered stealth but I suspect will we end up with invisistealth.
I am upset, because there are a lot of people on these forums throwing around crazy ideas without thinking of all the ramifications of them first, and it scares me to see some of them in this game.
I talk about other abilities and think I've already described the why behind them already, and the why I don't like forced target swaps.
Again like a lot of people have said Stealth isn't over powered, you move slow as balls, get no speed bonuses and basically rarely have a chance to win unless you get your opening. Granted openings are generally are too high, but that's no reason to kill invisistealth as you call it.
No, you are blaming them for not thinking when all you are doing is riding on your high horse.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Are you trying to tell me it wasn't designed as a PVE ability?
Taking someones target away isn't tactical skill, people will just make macros to spam to reaquire targets, it will end up being a pointless ability.
The definition of tank people are describing in this thread was designed and required for a PVE game and PVE components of games. The only reason some games made alterations to make viable in RVR was because people complained about being required to spec a certain way for PVE and respec for PVP.
This game won't have that complication so don't over complicate things.
plus juan
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
If the taunt works lik ein PVE, where you are forced to attack and can't control your character not a big fan of that.
I'd rather have tanks that use more physical forces, such as being able to knock people back/down, blocking people with collision detection (so you have to fight them to get by closed in areas, etc).
Having mitagion can work, where a tank has an ability to "protect" an ally for "x" time or dmg, where the damage done to the player is put onto the tank instead (the tnak has to be CLOSE to the player though, you shouldn't be able to say use the ability from 20 feet away, that would look strange).
So tanks would need to stick near an ally to protect them with that ability.
I'm sorry, but 'taunt' is a grandfathered mechanic meant for a simplified PvE setting. While there are ways you can shoehorn it into PvP, it really doesn't have a role in a PvP environment. At best, it could be a debuff or forced target drop, but it really doesn't solve ANY of the problems tanks typically have in PvP.
The real solution is simple, and has already been done by multiple games with target-based combat. Give tanks the bulk of CC abilities / mobility. This makes tanks hard to avoid (kite), and difficult to ignore (since they're interrupting your abilities constantly, thus reducing your effectiveness).
Unfortunately, few people seem to understand how to handle tanks that are actually viable in a PvP setting, and will rage nerf them into the ground.
^^ This.
Just give "tanks" a good bit of cc, and make them hard to kite, but less damage than other classes. If their cc can interrupt mages (which i would hope it would) or stun a squishy for a moment, that makes them valuable to a realm, but the cost of reduced damage means without someone behind them doing damage they are mostly useless because of their lack of damage output. Heaven forbid we are forced to use teamwork.
I am fine with the above options as well. As long as the game is built around wholly-conceptualized rvr dynamics, I will play independent of any "mechanic dogma"
This is a really good chance for an MMO to completely reexamine the mechanics of heavy melee fighters.
I say, let 'em act as a type of CC and mobile defense. Give them a short range snare and stun (Trip and Shield Bash). Give them the ability to link up with other warriors to block movement and line of sight (Shield Wall). If they go two-hander, they should get the ability to break a shield wall (Charge).
I hope MJ and co. put some serious thought into this. I'd really like to see a bit more ... uhm... not 'realism'... but 'reasonability' in the mechanics, that lets gameplay reflect how the classes might work if the gameworld was real.
if you are wanting to act as if the gameworld was real... If you were fighting someone in real life and out of the corner of your eye you see someone rushing at you with a sword and screaming, you would stop for a second or two to pay them some attention. lol
Comments
I'm sorry, but 'taunt' is a grandfathered mechanic meant for a simplified PvE setting. While there are ways you can shoehorn it into PvP, it really doesn't have a role in a PvP environment. At best, it could be a debuff or forced target drop, but it really doesn't solve ANY of the problems tanks typically have in PvP.
The real solution is simple, and has already been done by multiple games with target-based combat. Give tanks the bulk of CC abilities / mobility. This makes tanks hard to avoid (kite), and difficult to ignore (since they're interrupting your abilities constantly, thus reducing your effectiveness).
Unfortunately, few people seem to understand how to handle tanks that are actually viable in a PvP setting, and will rage nerf them into the ground.
No you wouldn't attack anything unless the tank is standing in front of you.
Intercept ability in DAOC did this exact thing and was simplier implementation that changing someones target. Tank just takes next hit instead of their target. Solved.
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
QFT, you don't want target switching mechanics as a soft cc. Put taunts on styles like daoc for the very little pve there is and leave it at that.
I've always liked the guard and intercept abilities in daoc. Tank jumps in front of blow to take the hit or block it.
Now if a person is chasing someone who is chasing someone, there are better things to do that forcing them to change target. Tanks usually have disarm. Disarm that person going after your healer, now they can't hit. Make them fumble, or if you're close enough, often there were attacks, especially from behind that had a snare, or a stun from a shield bash.
A forced target change is so unnecessary.
Why not just make Tanks generate threat in a natural way?
Like by making them really good a interrupts and CC?
Call it Fruit Salad, does that make you feel better? You sound very upset.
You talk about all these other abilities, why not taunt? We understand it makes you very emotional to have it, but why not other than your opinion on it? I don't want over powered stealth but I suspect will we end up with invisistealth.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I think it also add an extra bit of the fun we need in a game. It's so easy to dog pile on a squishy but this is a nice addition.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I am upset, because there are a lot of people on these forums throwing around crazy ideas without thinking of all the ramifications of them first, and it scares me to see some of them in this game.
I talk about other abilities and think I've already described the why behind them already, and the why I don't like forced target swaps.
Again like a lot of people have said Stealth isn't over powered, you move slow as balls, get no speed bonuses and basically rarely have a chance to win unless you get your opening. Granted openings are generally are too high, but that's no reason to kill invisistealth as you call it.
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
How is causing someone to change targets different than causing them to be inactive, or causing them to be dead? I mean in the sense of inconvenience, not literally. Obviously they are different in a literal sense. But everything you do in rvr is designed to cause enemies inconvenience and/or piss them off. Why the vehement hatred for this one concept but not others?
It just seems like you hate it because it forces someone to do something, but every offensive action does that... forces you to remain immobile, or to take damage, or to be debuffed, ect.
Again, honest question. Not being a smartass here. Maybe I am just missing something you haven't mentioned.
Cheers!
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
Because it's a crappy form of soft CC. Disarm makes sense as long as the weapon isn't visible on the character for the duration, stuns make sense, I just don't get "YOU HAVE TO TARGET THIS PERSON FOR 2 SECONDS" it feels too forced.Might as well give the tank Mind Control... There are a lot more logical better ways to give a class thats protecting his healers.
If you've ever played DAOC and played with BodyGuard it makes as much sense as that. Standing in front of someone with nothing in the way not being able to attack.
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
The core concept of what you want changed is the same method of soft CC bodyguard came from.
Which was one of the most terribly implimented skill/ability from TOA. I really want to avoid these mistakes in this game, I do believe these things won't be a part of CU, but I will do my part to educate people that arn't seeing the illogical nature of abilities like this.
Like i've said, plenty of other ways to add abilities to protect support without these fail soft cc abilities
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
Maybe, maybe not lol
I hear a lot of outlandish ideas thrown around here that scare the crap out of me to the point I prob wouldn't play.
This isn't close to one of them, but it stems from one of my biggest beefs with ToA ( imo ) so it would sting a lot to have these types of things implimented.
My biggest fear started when people talked about FPS target system, that was scary. Don't think they got the support to get a Darkfall playstyle, but I cringe when hearing it.
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
No, you are blaming them for not thinking when all you are doing is riding on your high horse.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
plus juan
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
If the taunt works lik ein PVE, where you are forced to attack and can't control your character not a big fan of that.
I'd rather have tanks that use more physical forces, such as being able to knock people back/down, blocking people with collision detection (so you have to fight them to get by closed in areas, etc).
Having mitagion can work, where a tank has an ability to "protect" an ally for "x" time or dmg, where the damage done to the player is put onto the tank instead (the tnak has to be CLOSE to the player though, you shouldn't be able to say use the ability from 20 feet away, that would look strange).
So tanks would need to stick near an ally to protect them with that ability.
^^ This.
Just give "tanks" a good bit of cc, and make them hard to kite, but less damage than other classes. If their cc can interrupt mages (which i would hope it would) or stun a squishy for a moment, that makes them valuable to a realm, but the cost of reduced damage means without someone behind them doing damage they are mostly useless because of their lack of damage output. Heaven forbid we are forced to use teamwork.
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
This is a really good chance for an MMO to completely reexamine the mechanics of heavy melee fighters.
I say, let 'em act as a type of CC and mobile defense. Give them a short range snare and stun (Trip and Shield Bash). Give them the ability to link up with other warriors to block movement and line of sight (Shield Wall). If they go two-hander, they should get the ability to break a shield wall (Charge).
I hope MJ and co. put some serious thought into this.
I'd really like to see a bit more ... uhm... not 'realism'... but 'reasonability' in the mechanics, that lets gameplay reflect how the classes might work if the gameworld was real.