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  • Az2002roAz2002ro Phoenix, AZPosts: 159Member
    Originally posted by StarI

    You heard that there are random treasures to be found across the land where you live in. You decide to try your luck hunting treasure chest so you head out exploring (Q1). Following a road it brings you near what it seems abandoned village overrun by some evil npc mobs. You decide to avoid it, just when you spot a fellow player fighting a group of skeletons behind one of the cottages. He seems low on health so you instead decide to aid him (Q2). After the fight you greet him "Hi" and ask what's he up to. He tells you the skeletons poses certain items he needs for crafting his new armor and you decide to join on the grind (Q3). You know there are sometimes player bandits plundering this land, deciding not to stay around for too long and instead head home to secure your loot and prepare for a big clan adventure in the evening... Your clan leader has planned a raid on nearby player populated fort in an attempt to claim it home and make lands more secure for our own (Q4).

    This is your example of a sandbox Quest???  Then WoW (and every other MMO) is a sandbox game! YAY!!!  Were done arguing!

    Lets retell your quest story to prove the point...

     

    I was wandering through Azeroth and realized there were treasures to be found across the land.  I decided to try my luck hunting for these treasure chest and went out exploring(Q1, fully doable in WoW).  Following a road out of Crossroads, it brought me to an overrun camp.  I decided to avoid it, just when I spotted a fellow player fighting Renegade Tarun/Orcs.  He seemed low on health so I decided to aid him (Q2, fully doable in WoW).  After the fight I greet him and ask what he's up to. He tells me the Tarun/Orc poses certain items he needs for crafting his new armor and I decide to join on hte grind (Q3, fully doable in WoW).  I know that the Alliance sometimes plunder this land, so I decide not to stay around too long and instead head home to Orgrimar to secure my loot and prepare for a big guild adventure in the evening... My guild leader has planned a raid on the alliance town in an attempt to claim it home and make our lands more secure for our own (Q4, fully doable in WoW)

     

    Hmm, looks like every MMO is now sandbox. 

  • LanessarLanessar PALM HARBOR, FLPosts: 87Member

    Honestly, what's the discussion here?

     

    NWO is purely a Themepark. Even the Foundry generates linear quests (get objective A, kill Fred, or interact with B). You can be clever with that content and create the illusion of a Sandbox quest (not a sandbox game), but those quests are done in your own little instance, and certainly have no effect upon your story. They aren't tailored to you, nor do they grant achievements. And these illusory quests will be exceedingly rare. Your choices in dealing with stuff are still limited to what the creator of said content thought of. 

     

    And they are linear; you can just use the linear-ness in a non-linear fashion so that the person playing the content doesn't think it is. But ultimately it is - "do ABC, then do XYZ". The Foundry doesn't support truly freeform quest creation. And I'm not criticising it; it's just not the game's purpose. It's primarily an action RPG. 

     

    Crafting and tradeskills are, at best, simplistic, and does not create a player-driven economy. (I'm going out on a limb on this one; I didn't see crafting in the beta weekend, but based off of the materials they dropped, it's not going to be anything like SWG). Crafting is something you do while leveling to make some items that make you currency. It's not something you can do without making a single level in your class.

     

    I personally don't care and enjoy the game as-is for being a themepark. I also love sandbox games, and hope one gets made in the fantasy genre which is a bit more modern. But let's call a spade a spade. Because if I read a apost and I'm thinking I can log in an experience sandbox content via Foundry, I would be pretty pissed off at that from 99% of the quests. 

  • gillrmngillrmn ArnhemPosts: 250Member

    The discussion has gone way off track here.

     

    Sandbox quest or more accurately, nonlinear quests - are possible to make in the game.

    However contrary to how people make look on forums, these quests are never popular among major demographics of players. It caters to very small percentage of players. Most people want to go from point A to point B to get quests done. Thus nonlinear quests are not profitable to make. Only games which cater to small percentage of MMO players would dare make it. Even single player games don't often go for such a setting extensively.

    What are nonlinear quests? : In these quests, you search for objectives yourself. If you do point A; point B to do same quest will not be possible. You are free to choose any objective you want whenever you want it. You can run around town talking to various people, do their quests - doing a quest Z will change the enviornment, even if you do quest Z before quest A, B, C etc. Also you have branching stories thus experience for each player will be different depending on choices and class/race or some other differential.

     

    Lastly, as I said, you can play the campaign "Maiden in the Moon" next time to see how nonlinear you can make a quest using the powerful UGC. It is all upto imaginatin and creativity of author.

  • gillrmngillrmn ArnhemPosts: 250Member

    "Even the Foundry generates linear quests"

     

    That is not true. You just need some Brainz!!! to make a nonlinear quest(and yes you have to become a zombie for all the hard work you put)

     

    "This is your example of a sandbox Quest??? Then WoW (and every other MMO) is a sandbox game! YAY!!! Were done arguing!"

    An example of nonlinear quest is(completely hypothtical but possible in foundry):-

    You wake up at campfire. Then:-

    You may decide to go north, west or south.

    If you go north you find a girl in cage. You go near her and it seems she is slave. You may decide to free her or kill her.

    If you decide to free her she will take oppurtunity to ambush you calling her bandits. If you kill the bandits, you may choose to dispose of their bodies. If you do fine. Otherwise the bandits will be alerted to you and will ambush you here and there in the jungle. You may go back and dispose the bodies anytime and then ambushes wil stop.

    If you instead go south, you may find a courtroom proceeding in village. Someone stole chicken and it is up to you to interrogate and find out who the thief is. The one you accuse will be exiled. If you are correct in judgement, the temple on the hill nearby will open its doors. But if wronng, temple's door are forever closed to you. You may decide not to chose for now and come back later(or not at all)

    If you go west, you may decide to leave for your next destination.

     

    ~~~~

    Something like that.

     

    ~~~~

    tl;dr

    It is possible to make a quest without any story at all just like pnp using patience and dedication. Unprecedented non-linearity unlike any other MMO can be achieved using foundry. However, most player actually hate a truly non-linear quest with only few liking it so you will have to add linear element to it. Thus it will be a selective quest for a small player base. In short too much bother with little reward.

  • xpiherxpiher Indianapolis, INPosts: 3,311Member
    Originally posted by gillrmn

    "Even the Foundry generates linear quests"

     

    That is not true. You just need some Brainz!!! to make a nonlinear quest(and yes you have to become a zombie for all the hard work you put)

     

    "This is your example of a sandbox Quest??? Then WoW (and every other MMO) is a sandbox game! YAY!!! Were done arguing!"

    An example of nonlinear quest is(completely hypothtical but possible in foundry):-

    You wake up at campfire. Then:-

    You may decide to go north, west or south.

    If you go north you find a girl in cage. You go near her and it seems she is slave. You may decide to free her or kill her.

    If you decide to free her she will take oppurtunity to ambush you calling her bandits. If you kill the bandits, you may choose to dispose of their bodies. If you do fine. Otherwise the bandits will be alerted to you and will ambush you here and there in the jungle. You may go back and dispose the bodies anytime and then ambushes wil stop.

    If you instead go south, you may find a courtroom proceeding in village. Someone stole chicken and it is up to you to interrogate and find out who the thief is. The one you accuse will be exiled. If you are correct in judgement, the temple on the hill nearby will open its doors. But if wronng, temple's door are forever closed to you. You may decide not to chose for now and come back later(or not at all)

    If you go west, you may decide to leave for your next destination.

     

    ~~~~

    Something like that.

     

    ~~~~

    tl;dr

    It is possible to make a quest without any story at all just like pnp using patience and dedication. Unprecedented non-linearity unlike any other MMO can be achieved using foundry. However, most player actually hate a truly non-linear quest with only few liking it so you will have to add linear element to it. Thus it will be a selective quest for a small player base. In short too much bother with little reward.

    What makes you think most people hate non-linear quests? 

    image
    Games:
    Currently playing:Nothing
    Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
    Past games:
    Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
    Xpiher's GW2
    GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
    Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
    AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
    Warhammer - Xpiher

  • gillrmngillrmn ArnhemPosts: 250Member
    Originally posted by xpiher

    ...

    What makes you think most people hate non-linear quests? 

    Classified feedback to my non-linear quest which I can't talk about.

    They were there last beta, but this month I have been busy so I am not sure if my quest has been re-uploaded to beta servers for the weekend. But if it is there, it would have a name like "The Wild Moon(mote) Chase". You can try yourself.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,460Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by gillrmn

    "Even the Foundry generates linear quests"

     

    That is not true. You just need some Brainz!!! to make a nonlinear quest(and yes you have to become a zombie for all the hard work you put)

     

    "This is your example of a sandbox Quest??? Then WoW (and every other MMO) is a sandbox game! YAY!!! Were done arguing!"

    An example of nonlinear quest is(completely hypothtical but possible in foundry):-

    You wake up at campfire. Then:-

    You may decide to go north, west or south.

    If you go north you find a girl in cage. You go near her and it seems she is slave. You may decide to free her or kill her.

    If you decide to free her she will take oppurtunity to ambush you calling her bandits. If you kill the bandits, you may choose to dispose of their bodies. If you do fine. Otherwise the bandits will be alerted to you and will ambush you here and there in the jungle. You may go back and dispose the bodies anytime and then ambushes wil stop.

    If you instead go south, you may find a courtroom proceeding in village. Someone stole chicken and it is up to you to interrogate and find out who the thief is. The one you accuse will be exiled. If you are correct in judgement, the temple on the hill nearby will open its doors. But if wronng, temple's door are forever closed to you. You may decide not to chose for now and come back later(or not at all)

    If you go west, you may decide to leave for your next destination.

     

    ~~~~

    Something like that.

     

    ~~~~

    tl;dr

    It is possible to make a quest without any story at all just like pnp using patience and dedication. Unprecedented non-linearity unlike any other MMO can be achieved using foundry. However, most player actually hate a truly non-linear quest with only few liking it so you will have to add linear element to it. Thus it will be a selective quest for a small player base. In short too much bother with little reward.

    hmmm I would still say those are linear. one just chooses which fork to take and continues the line.

    Thinking on it, one could make actual non-linear quests but I highly doubt the average gamer/person would find it interesting or fun.

  • koboldfodderkoboldfodder Danbury, DEPosts: 390Member Uncommon

    Eve Online is a niche game?  Ultima Online was a niche game?

     

    Stop touting WOWs 9 million subs as an excuse to say sandbox type of games are failures.  Everything is a failure when stacked up against WOW.  All the other themepark MMOs are failures even if you combine their subscriptions and compare them to WOW.

     

     

  • gillrmngillrmn ArnhemPosts: 250Member
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    ...

    hmmm I would still say those are linear. one just chooses which fork to take and continues the line.

    Thinking on it, one could make actual non-linear quests but I highly doubt the average gamer/person would find it interesting or fun.

    You need to check and brush up your concept of linear and non-linear gameplay.

     

    Linear is if you do A->B->C->D

     

    Nonlinear is if you have A, B, C, D, E ,F ,G, H and you may chose to do them in any order, or not do any of them at all (exit) or do A, D, F and leave. All of them can be made so that you complete the map regardless.

    Additionally, you can make it so such that doing B changes enviornment completely, or doing F disables G and H; or doing A enables C.

     

    All these non-linear elements are possible. Sorry I can't elaborate on "how" part for now, but if you ask at appropriate place at appropriate time, you can get a nice tutorial on how to do it.

     

    EDIT:

    This might help:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonlinear_gameplay

     

    Quoting:-

    "

    Nonlinear level design

    A game level or world can be linear or nonlinear. In a game with linear levels, there is only one route that the player must take through the level. In games with nonlinear levels, players might have to revisit locations or choose from multiple paths to finish the level.

    As with other game elements, linear level design is not absolute. While a nonlinear level can give the freedom to explore or backtrack, there can be a sequence of challenges that a player must solve to complete the level. If a player must confront the challenges in a fixed order nonlinear games will often give multiple approaches to achieve said objectives.

    A more linear game requires a player to finish levels in a fixed sequence to win. The ability to skip, repeat, or choose between levels makes this type of game less linear. Super Mario Bros. is an early example of this, where the player had access to warp zones that skipped many levels of the game.

    When a level is sufficiently large and open-ended, it may be described as an open world,[30] or sandbox game, though this term is often used incorrectly.[31][32] Open world game designs have existed in some form since the 1980s, such as the space trading game Elite, and often make use of procedural generation.
    "
  • gillrmngillrmn ArnhemPosts: 250Member
    Suffix to say a dedicated author can make open world quest in foundry(Highest form of nonlinearity in any quest). That should put to rest any doubts about interpretation of nonlinearity.
  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,460Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by gillrmn
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    ...

    hmmm I would still say those are linear. one just chooses which fork to take and continues the line.

    Thinking on it, one could make actual non-linear quests but I highly doubt the average gamer/person would find it interesting or fun.

    You need to check and brush up your concept of linear and non-linear gameplay.

     

    Linear is if you do A->B->C->D

     

    quote as many wikipedia articles as you'd like, you need to brush up on linear/non-linear story telling.

    I don't care if someone says that  forking paths is non-linear. It's linear. It's forward, forward, forward, foreward.

    No wonder we can't get more imaginative game play in these games.

    maybe watch the last year at marienbad and get an idea as to the extreme of non-linear story telling.

  • gillrmngillrmn ArnhemPosts: 250Member
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    ... 

    quote as many wikipedia articles as you'd like, you need to brush up on linear/non-linear story telling.

    I don't care if someone says that  forking paths is non-linear. It's linear. It's forward, forward, forward, foreward.

    No wonder we can't get more imaginative game play in these games.

    maybe watch the last year at marienbad and get an idea as to the extreme of non-linear story telling.

    Please read once again carefully. I think you missed the part just under where you cut the quote. I also consider forking path just one most minor element of non-linear gameplay.

     

    I am a proponent of repetition so here it is:-

     

    A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H are sub-quests. A can be free a woman, B can be fight the trolls, C can be solve a puzzle, D can be perform a magical ritual, D can be etc etc etc.

     

    Now, first of all:-

     

    1- You can choose to do them in any order.

    2- Suddenly you decide that if you kill the troll(B) you need not rescue the woman(A). So if you do B before A, A disappears. If you do B after A, you can still do it.

    3- You decide that only one of E,F or G,H should be done - not both.

    4- Player may not be able to find quest  D which you have hidden. If he finds it, traps spring up in some other quest (like G and H).

    5- If the player decides to leave all the quests, he should be able to do so. Or if you want the player to do at least one of A,B,C and two of E,F,G,H : you should be able to make it so that those quests be done before the player can finish the map(i.e. at least 1+2 quests in total).

    6- Player should find all quests accidently. Like if he decides to talk to an old woman and help her, only then he finds quest A.

    7- You suddenly decide to punish the players. So if he does choose to kill a puppy somewhere, you block quest C from ever being done.

     

     

    If this is linear quest, then any non-linear quest in PnP or video games is yet to be discovered by mankind. And the real life is completely linear too.

  • Dreamo84Dreamo84 Niagara Falls, NYPosts: 3,437Member Uncommon
    You could say its not innovative because CoX already had it. If they weren't the ones who put it in CoX.

    Truth is cryptic is the only company trying player created content in a meaningful way, so it is a really big deal.

    image
  • Alber_gamerAlber_gamer RomePosts: 557Member Uncommon

    Creating their own content is what players want, it's not done out of lack of developped content. And even if it was, I couldn't care less. I'd be happy if Neverwinter wasn't even a game, just a Forgotten Realms based dungeon creator with all the tools that the Foundry will bring over the table. The world of gaming needed something like it.

     

    Plus the game is free to play.  Nobody's taking anybody's money to then disappoint them with lack of content here. 

     

     

    My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,460Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by gillrmn
     

    Please read once again carefully. I think you missed the part just under where you cut the quote. I also consider forking path just one most minor element of non-linear gameplay.

     

    I am a proponent of repetition so here it is:-

     

    A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H are sub-quests. A can be free a woman, B can be fight the trolls, C can be solve a puzzle, D can be perform a magical ritual, D can be etc etc etc.

     

    Now, first of all:-

     

    1- You can choose to do them in any order.

    2- Suddenly you decide that if you kill the troll(B) you need not rescue the woman(A). So if you do B before A, A disappears. If you do B after A, you can still do it.

    3- You decide that only one of E,F or G,H should be done - not both.

    4- Player may not be able to find quest  D which you have hidden. If he finds it, traps spring up in some other quest (like G and H).

    5- If the player decides to leave all the quests, he should be able to do so. Or if you want the player to do at least one of A,B,C and two of E,F,G,H : you should be able to make it so that those quests be done before the player can finish the map(i.e. at least 1+2 quests in total).

    6- Player should find all quests accidently. Like if he decides to talk to an old woman and help her, only then he finds quest A.

    7- You suddenly decide to punish the players. So if he does choose to kill a puppy somewhere, you block quest C from ever being done.

     

     

    If this is linear quest, then any non-linear quest in PnP or video games is yet to be discovered by mankind. And the real life is completely linear too.

    Well, that certainly makes sense and I'm glad you feel that the fork is the least of non-linear story telling.

    However, when you talk of non-linear game play, especialy when story is concerned, it also brings up the idea of truly non-linear story events.

    I'm not talking about choosing an event which in many cases is just that, "choosing your path or choosing/ignoring events that then spawn different choices.

    I'm talking about stories that not only take place in one story direction but incorporate what is called "disjointed narrative".  At least that's what my professors called it.

    That could be a story running backwards or two stories, one running forward in time and one running backward where both intersect at a climactic and very meaningful point.

    In game play it could mean one's "present" story where one picks one's choices and then those choices help fill out a backstory where the player is also a participant. So, going forward from the present also creates the past or at least generates events in the past where the player can also affect the future. Truly "non-linear" game play.

    However, you do go on to say that most players don't like truly non-linear game play and I would agree that is the case.

  • gillrmngillrmn ArnhemPosts: 250Member
    wrong quote    X.X 

    If UGC starts to churn unprecedented content, ten developers will surely devote their time in other things. Post launch, the development is responsive in nature. If the users feel that content is less, devs spend their limited time in making new content.

    If there is too much of content already, made by users - the devs will spend less time in content and more on things which matter and require urgent attention. For example, if foundry goes off too well then devs will be more pressed on giving more features in foundry tool itself, making more races, more classes etc.

    However, devs are not expecting more than 10% quality content from foundry side. This estimate is based on STO and assumption that NW will have good authors. Hence foundry tool will not make a very big contribution in distribution of dev time. Nevertheless, unexpected can happen in D&D! Who knows that there is so much content that devs prioritise races and classes and we have more classes instead of content.

     

    But according to interviews, foundry is there for temporary support to devs and not really as a replacement for official content. They are looking towards foundry content not initially, but something that should sustain them in longer run like it worked for games like NWN1.

  • gillrmngillrmn ArnhemPosts: 250Member
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    :trimmed for readability:
    However, you do go on to say that most players don't like truly non-linear game play and I would agree that is the case.

    The point which you are bringing forward is I believe, the persistence of flags outside of maps.

    No, you can't carry flags outside of the map you play in. So if you are using a trigger, it has to be triggered n same map. Devs have said it is something to look for post launch (persistant zones) but not during or 'near soon' after launch.

    However, there are ways to counter this limitation - creativity triumphs tools.

    One way creative people at STO suggested me was to use pass pharases as flags. i.e. When some flag is to be carried over to next map, tell the player in first map that he has to do one particular thing out of 30 combinations in map 3. So when he reaches map 3, if he has done a particular flag in map 1, he will be able to uncover the flag in map 3.

     

    However this requires that player reads the dialog - something which you will find surprizingly lacking in MMO crowd. Eventually you will find that one rare person out of hundred will actually find that "something suspicious happened in map 3" and nobody will actually realize what clever strategem you used. Surprizingly, even most ntellgent and diligent players will miss it - even me if I play your quest. This is because tons of official content and hand-holding with golden trail path with compass and all will numb my true RP skills and explorer skills.

    The first time I made sub-quests, even most initellegent players never realized there was a sub-quest. Simply because they never expected it after playing (what I think is) dumb linear official content.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,460Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by gillrmn
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    :trimmed for readability:
    However, you do go on to say that most players don't like truly non-linear game play and I would agree that is the case.

    The point which you are bringing forward is I believe, the persistence of flags outside of maps.

    No, you can't carry flags outside of the map you play in. So if you are using a trigger, it has to be triggered n same map. Devs have said it is something to look for post launch (persistant zones) but not during or 'near soon' after launch.

    However, there are ways to counter this limitation - creativity triumphs tools.

    One way creative people at STO suggested me was to use pass pharases as flags. i.e. When some flag is to be carried over to next map, tell the player in first map that he has to do one particular thing out of 30 combinations in map 3. So when he reaches map 3, if he has done a particular flag in map 1, he will be able to uncover the flag in map 3.

     

    However this requires that player reads the dialog - something which you will find surprizingly lacking in MMO crowd. Eventually you will find that one rare person out of hundred will actually find that "something suspicious happened in map 3" and nobody will actually realize what clever strategem you used. Surprizingly, even most ntellgent and diligent players will miss it - even me if I play your quest. This is because tons of official content and hand-holding with golden trail path with compass and all will numb my true RP skills and explorer skills.

    The first time I made sub-quests, even most initellegent players never realized there was a sub-quest. Simply because they never expected it after playing (what I think is) dumb linear official content.

    Now that I find interesting, Of course that is a good point, how to make the player pick the appropriate flag with only a small bit of dialogue.

    Still, it's intriguing because now one can make a decision in the present (to use my previous example) and then, if they kill their brother they can then (next map (?) which is in the past) somehow pick a choice that allows for a scene to play out in the past with their brother, a possible reveal with the brother and then in the next map that reveal (flag?) can then move the story forward.

    Whereas if they kill their sister it then fleshes out the past differently, different reveal and that affects the story in the present much differently. That is if I'm understanding you correctly.

    edit: or maybe the flag isn't dialogue but an object? one that is tied to a decision in the present and which the player has an option of picking the appropriate object in the past that then supports the correct decision in the present.

     

  • gillrmngillrmn ArnhemPosts: 250Member

    Yes, can be done - though too much pain and very little appreciation for all that pain will be the story for it :)

    Flag, or more accurately,trigger - can be anything. It can be your choice to choose and carry one item out of four, your choice to use object, your choice to walk in a praticular area - even dialog may be possible as a trigger.

    But self-satisfaction after creating such a story will be only reward.

     

    EDIT:trigger can also be disarming a trap or killing a particular set of mobs.

  • gillrmngillrmn ArnhemPosts: 250Member

    Sadly it seems I was not able to get my old quest "The Wild Moon(mote) Chase" up before beta transfer. So beta players this time cannot play it. I will try to make sure that the quest is up by beta weekend 3.

     

    So those of you who were interested in having a look on how to make quest non-linear (sandbox) may have to wait till next beta.

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