Originally posted by Loktofeit The next era is here. The people clinging to what a 'true' MMO 'should be' are just not part of it.
That was the hardest part for me, but I am coming to grips with it
It is not about wanting all MMO's gameplay to stay true to the old days. It is about having more than one version of a MMO and thus more than one version of gameplay. Not having every MMO become an easy mode MMO. There is room for older and newer elements in any MMO.
The MMO market as it now stands is not totally homogeneous, it is this drive to only designing one way that is detrimental to the gaming. Look at TSW, STWOR (user centric quests), PS2. The genre is still trying to doing new things, dont give up hope yet.
And as to not being part of it, trying to tell us that we will be missing out in some way. Oh I am so worried I will not be part of the lemmings who throw themselves of the cliff. Think for yourself, don’t go with the crowd. I play with friends in guilds, the game is secondary to me now, which is why I put up with easymode.
I am quite happy to watch them jump while I stay up here and wave them goodbye.
Ok, name examples of indie games which tanked, that's not even made back their initial investment, go ahead, I got a few months to spare -sits back and has a sip of cola from his glass-
Aerrevan
Knights of Dream City
Black Prophecy
Fasaria World
Celetania
Earth Eternal
Secondhand Lands
7Million
Rubies of Eventide
Earthrise
Fury
Gods and Heroes: Rome Rising
Dungeon Empires
Never out the gate...
Firefly Universe
Dawntide
well, this column could go on almost forever.
If you want to refine what qualifies for indie I can put together a better list for you.
Uhmm... Dawntide and last time I checked the Firefly MMO (under a different name) are still alive (under lax development scheduals) and as for the rest:
-Aerrevan - still alive
-Knights of Dream City - official servers down, they're selling licences to host private servers last news I see?? o.O even I donno what's up with this but by the looks of the graphics and the amount of time it stayed live (over a year) it should've made back its budget (2010 with those graphics... you know it wasn't much of a budget to begin with)
-Black Prophecy - stayed up for more than a year, wasn't much of a game to begin with (played it myself near launch day), buggy, bad translation, etc, not much of a labour of love but considering it stayed live for a year + it could've earned its budget back but just wasn't making enough to justify development.
-Fasaria World - still alive
-Celetania - P2P, stayed alive for almost a year, graphics level is lower than Beyond Protocol so I'd assume they made their investment back (this being on the cusp of the F2P era why wouldn't they have tried a F2P system if they hadn't?)
-Earth Eternal - Company/publisher filed for bankruptcy, game itself was bought by a japanese developer, fate unknown, considering the engine (OGRE) it was not an expensive game to make most likely ergo it probably was profitable while active just that it wasn't enough to save its parent company.
-Secondhand Lands - lived for what looks to have been nearly 2 years (can't find any credible information on it) as a F2P title, graphics compared to the era are rudimentary ergo likelyhood is they made their budget back at least.
-7Million "Even though all of this sounds really interesting, as a social MMO 7Million is still more of a large interactive chat room than an actual game, but it still has plenty of distractions to keep players busy." with minigames on top... I think this is IMVU's bastard brother.
-Rubies of Eventide: Launched on a donation system and ended 6 years after launch... I am no economy expert but sounds like it made its budget back and en some and by what I've read the source code was not made public so there's a chance it hasn't gone into the night fully.
-Earthrise: P2P game that got pushed out the door too soon, tanked because of it, F2P future still undecided.
-Fury: Mismanaged into the ground with a F2P conversion.
-Gods and Heroes: Still alive by what I can tell, B2P.
-Dungeon Empires: No clue what happened to this one, no news no nothing regarding its shutting down, Hell I can find twitter posts from the devs up until october regarding a patch then nadda, your guess is as good as mine.
It is not about wanting all MMO's gameplay to stay true to the old days. It is about having more than one version of a MMO and thus more than one version of gameplay. Not having every MMO become an easy mode MMO. There is room for older and newer elements in any MMO.
The MMO market as it now stands is not totally homogeneous, it is this drive to only designing one way that is detrimental to the gaming. Look at TSW, STWOR (user centric quests), PS2. The genre is still trying to doing new things, dont give up hope yet.
If you want a challenge, play pvp games. You mentioned PS2. It is never easy mode in that game, just because your opponent is human.
F2P will take over because customers can set their own prices.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
Ok, name examples of indie games which tanked, that's not even made back their initial investment, go ahead, I got a few months to spare -sits back and has a sip of cola from his glass-
Aerrevan
Knights of Dream City
Black Prophecy
Fasaria World
Celetania
Earth Eternal
Secondhand Lands
7Million
Rubies of Eventide
Earthrise
Fury
Gods and Heroes: Rome Rising
Dungeon Empires
Never out the gate...
Firefly Universe
Dawntide
well, this column could go on almost forever.
If you want to refine what qualifies for indie I can put together a better list for you.
Uhmm... Dawntide and last time I checked the Firefly MMO (under a different name) are still alive (under lax development scheduals).. which means they were never published, thus 'never out of the gate'. My apologies for the colloquialism as that probably is what created the confusion.
-Aerrevan - still alive
Aerrevan did not make back the initial 1 million investment in the game.
-Knights of Dream City - official servers down, they're selling licences to host private servers last news I see?? o.O even I donno what's up with this but by the looks of the graphics and the amount of time it stayed live (over a year) it should've made back its budget (2010 with those graphics... you know it wasn't much of a budget to begin with)
And it has tanked. It is no longer in operation.
-Black Prophecy - stayed up for more than a year, wasn't much of a game to begin with (played it myself near launch day), buggy, bad translation, etc, not much of a labour of love but considering it stayed live for a year + it could've earned its budget back but just wasn't making enough to justify development.
And it has tanked. It is no longer in operation.
-Fasaria World - still alive
And it has tanked and closed. It was recently reopened to try again.
-Celetania - P2P, stayed alive for almost a year, graphics level is lower than Beyond Protocol so I'd assume they made their investment back (this being on the cusp of the F2P era why wouldn't they have tried a F2P system if they hadn't?)
It was Omega Days with graphics. They sold less boxes than expected and went into triage mode only three months after release. The PBBG formula simply did not work, although it was definitely a valiant effort on their part to make it work.
-Earth Eternal - Company/publisher filed for bankruptcy, game itself was bought by a japanese developer, fate unknown, considering the engine (OGRE) it was not an expensive game to make most likely ergo it probably was profitable while active just that it wasn't enough to save its parent company.
Earth Eternal tanked and closed. They even stated on their site that the closing would happen as soon as the host shut them down for non-payment.
-Secondhand Lands - lived for what looks to have been nearly 2 years (can't find any credible information on it) as a F2P title, graphics compared to the era are rudimentary ergo likelyhood is they made their budget back at least.
Yes, the server was online for two years. Something about a PCU of 25-50 probably had something to do with it closing, though. Tanked.
-7Million "Even though all of this sounds really interesting, as a social MMO 7Million is still more of a large interactive chat room than an actual game, but it still has plenty of distractions to keep players busy." with minigames on top... I think this is IMVU's bastard brother.
Aaaaand it tanked. It is no longer in operation.
-Rubies of Eventide: Launched on a donation system and ended 6 years after launch... I am no economy expert but sounds like it made its budget back and en some and by what I've read the source code was not made public so there's a chance it hasn't gone into the night fully.
Aaand it tanked, not once, but at least twice. No attempts by three different companies could keep it running.
-Earthrise: P2P game that got pushed out the door too soon, tanked because of it, F2P future still undecided.
Which means it tanked. Servers closed a year ago.
-Fury: Mismanaged into the ground with a F2P conversion.
Although I think Adam is a great game designer, this game was poor design from the start. Auran's management and marketing just compounded it.
-Gods and Heroes: Still alive by what I can tell, B2P.
Gods and Heroes hasnt had a dev team for over a year. They have long since gotten rid of most of their CS staff as well. They have not recovered the five million that Castoro sank into the game, and announced such around this time last year.
-Dungeon Empires: No clue what happened to this one, no news no nothing regarding its shutting down, Hell I can find twitter posts from the devs up until october regarding a patch then nadda, your guess is as good as mine.
Broken (easily gamed) systems were the death knell here. Tanked.
Moar please
Look, it's obvious you clicked through wikipedia for your replies, and painfully obvious that was the limit of your research and there is no actual familiarity with the titles or their histories.
Did you actually want an answer or just want to argue?
EDIT: my spelling sucks sometimes.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The number of players who want to play for free outnumbers those prepared to pay for a MMO. Amazing, any more insights from the world of the bleeding obvious?
Unfortunately apart from filling up space in a virtual world, how do those free players contribute to MMO’s or gaming?
The number of players who want to play for free outnumbers those prepared to pay for a MMO. Amazing, any more insights from the world of the bleeding obvious?
Unfortunately apart from filling up space in a virtual world, how do those free players contribute to MMO’s or gaming?
Sure .. the key insight is that the industry can survive on a small fraction of whales. There is no need .. even no attempt to make a majority of players to pay.
Sure, free players serve as content for the paying customers, and give some hopes to the devs that they may be paying one day.
And btw, i am not looking to "contribute" anything. Gaming is just entertainment. Why would free players need to contribute to anything?
I don't know about the future, but one troubling trend of recent MMOs is hwo much importance they are putting on the story...It feels liek the genre is really getting away from the massive and concentrating on the individual.....The problem with these types of games is that the story takes away from the community and often feels like we are just going through the motions as the story has already been determined.
The number of players who want to play for free outnumbers those prepared to pay for a MMO. Amazing, any more insights from the world of the bleeding obvious?
Unfortunately apart from filling up space in a virtual world, how do those free players contribute to MMO’s or gaming?
Because alot of those free players end up paying or buying something in the game....Even if its just 5 dollars, those 5 dollar donations add up when you get enough people......The genre would have probably been bankrupt by now had it stuck with the p2p philosophy....The tiems are changing and you either embrace it or are bitter and get left behind.
Originally posted by Theocritus I don't know about the future, but one troubling trend of recent MMOs is hwo much importance they are putting on the story...It feels liek the genre is really getting away from the massive and concentrating on the individual.....The problem with these types of games is that the story takes away from the community and often feels like we are just going through the motions as the story has already been determined.
this is a trend in gaming in general. Look at first person shooters, 90% of modern shooters are corridors and cutscenes, compare to older FPS where you could explore around, figure stuff out for yourself, unlock secrets etc..
Good. Don't want to play a game like a job with weekly meetings and commitment.
lots of micro transactions
If that helps fund development ... good .. since i am probably the guy who free ride on whales buying $500 swords.
lots of telling the story at you, rather than letting you play the game (a trend in all games not just mmos)
Depends on the story. Scripted events are ok .. and better than cut-scenes.
lost of hand holding and tutorials, no letting you figure shit out for yourself and dropping you in the deep end
Tutorials about mechanics is ok. Beats reading about it on a website.
designed around cash shops and getting players to use the shop (again a trend in all games not just mmos)
Only bad for people with no will power.
prioritising things that look good when selling the game like graphics and voice work, over things that make the game FUN to play
Not seeing that at all. Lots of MMOs are touting their game play ssystems and mechanics. In fact, graphics is much less a selling point for MMO than other games.
less of an emphasis on being in a breathing world, more of an emphasis on Telling you a story.
As long as the game is fun, i really don't care if it is a breathing world. In fact, a lot of fun games are not worlds. It is not a necessity for fun.
lots of telling the story at you, rather than letting you play the game (a trend in all games not just mmos)
lost of hand holding and tutorials, no letting you figure shit out for yourself and dropping you in the deep end
designed around cash shops and getting players to use the shop (again a trend in all games not just mmos)
prioritising things that look good when selling the game like graphics and voice work, over things that make the game FUN to play
less of an emphasis on being in a breathing world, more of an emphasis on Telling you a story.
I understand what you are saying, but the gaming industry is only reacting to the change in the gaming populations demographics. Sad to say, more and more people are taking the passive approach to these matters. They WANT to be told a story, they WANT to have their hands held. In other words, we are seeing more and more adults with the basic mentality and perspectives of children.
This isn't just the US. Its pretty much true through out much of the so called "developed" world. Its a very troubling circumstance, that is going to result in many bad things over the coming years. The gaming companies are simply reacting to it, in their pursuit of profits.
"In other words, we are seeing more and more adults with the basic mentality and perspectives of children. "
This is what happens when fun becomes more important than thinking. Entertainment is not just about fun, it should engage you, inform you, stretch you. When it does all those things it is far more satisfying.
Easymode MMO’s are like TV cartoons, the MMO genre could offer so much more.
The number of players who want to play for free outnumbers those prepared to pay for a MMO. Amazing, any more insights from the world of the bleeding obvious?
Unfortunately apart from filling up space in a virtual world, how do those free players contribute to MMO’s or gaming?
Because alot of those free players end up paying or buying something in the game....Even if its just 5 dollars, those 5 dollar donations add up when you get enough people......The genre would have probably been bankrupt by now had it stuck with the p2p philosophy....The tiems are changing and you either embrace it or are bitter and get left behind.
If you end up paying you are contributing, if you mod you are contributing, if you run a fan site you are contributing, if you do a lot of crafting and keep the economy going, you are contributing. Some MMOs are more built for players who do not pay to contribute to the game. PS2 springs to mind, you are my opponent or my ally, you are contributing to the game from the moment you log in. But in a more traditional MMO you don’t make the game better by just logging in.
And why is contribution important, do we have to have that asked again? Games don’t grow on trees, they have staff who need paying, new content that needs investment. Also this is multiplayer, an opportunity for us all to make a game better. Don’t stick to those tramlines, a MMO or any other multiplayer game can be a richer experience if you give it a try.
What they SHOULD do in my opinion is form a temporary conglommerate of companies, have each produce (in close liaison) the elements of a cooperatively produced MASSIVE MMO they are best at, and release it onto the world.
An MMO with a target 10,000,000 players and sub payment system would actually have a shot if this kind of cooperation happened.
future you come home house reconize you ask you what you wanne do you say playing<inserted name mmo or game> game starts on your screen everything that involves money automatically transfer from your bank to company of game and its all in cloud.
Your brain tap into system and you can fantasize any fantasy you want and engine generate that on the virtual reality screen.
No hardware or any typing needed only a holgraphic screen that when finished just vanish in thin air.
"In other words, we are seeing more and more adults with the basic mentality and perspectives of children. "
This is what happens when fun becomes more important than thinking. Entertainment is not just about fun, it should engage you, inform you, stretch you. When it does all those things it is far more satisfying.
Easymode MMO’s are like TV cartoons, the MMO genre could offer so much more.
I disagree. Entertainment is about fun .. that is how it is marketed, and what people want from entertainment.
When i want to be informed, i read a Time magazine article, or a scientific paper. When i want to be engage, i have discussions with my colleauges. When i want to stretch, i learn a new scientific technique and apply it to my work.
Entertainment is when i pass time and relax my mind. If it informs ... sure .. i will take it as a side effect. But that is NOT what i look for when i use entertainment.
That is the same for movies, anime, and novels. Don't get me wrong, i don't avoid those things in my entertainment. For example, I love Lincoln the movie. However, it is NOT a pre-requsite for my entertainment. I love The Avengers as much.
The MMO genre, or any entertainment, should not forget fun in the name of playing the role not central to an entertainment product.
"When i want to be informed, i read a Time magazine article, or a scientific paper. When i want to be engage, i have discussions with my colleauges. When i want to stretch, i learn a new scientific technique and apply it to my work."
So Time or a scientific paper never amuses you, they are only ever a dry chore. Your colleagues never amuse you or stretch you?
Don’t pigeonhole bits of your life, get the most out of everything.
Comments
It is not about wanting all MMO's gameplay to stay true to the old days. It is about having more than one version of a MMO and thus more than one version of gameplay. Not having every MMO become an easy mode MMO. There is room for older and newer elements in any MMO.
The MMO market as it now stands is not totally homogeneous, it is this drive to only designing one way that is detrimental to the gaming. Look at TSW, STWOR (user centric quests), PS2. The genre is still trying to doing new things, dont give up hope yet.
And as to not being part of it, trying to tell us that we will be missing out in some way. Oh I am so worried I will not be part of the lemmings who throw themselves of the cliff. Think for yourself, don’t go with the crowd. I play with friends in guilds, the game is secondary to me now, which is why I put up with easymode.
I am quite happy to watch them jump while I stay up here and wave them goodbye.
Uhmm... Dawntide and last time I checked the Firefly MMO (under a different name) are still alive (under lax development scheduals) and as for the rest:
-Aerrevan - still alive
-Knights of Dream City - official servers down, they're selling licences to host private servers last news I see?? o.O even I donno what's up with this but by the looks of the graphics and the amount of time it stayed live (over a year) it should've made back its budget (2010 with those graphics... you know it wasn't much of a budget to begin with)
-Black Prophecy - stayed up for more than a year, wasn't much of a game to begin with (played it myself near launch day), buggy, bad translation, etc, not much of a labour of love but considering it stayed live for a year + it could've earned its budget back but just wasn't making enough to justify development.
-Fasaria World - still alive
-Celetania - P2P, stayed alive for almost a year, graphics level is lower than Beyond Protocol so I'd assume they made their investment back (this being on the cusp of the F2P era why wouldn't they have tried a F2P system if they hadn't?)
-Earth Eternal - Company/publisher filed for bankruptcy, game itself was bought by a japanese developer, fate unknown, considering the engine (OGRE) it was not an expensive game to make most likely ergo it probably was profitable while active just that it wasn't enough to save its parent company.
-Secondhand Lands - lived for what looks to have been nearly 2 years (can't find any credible information on it) as a F2P title, graphics compared to the era are rudimentary ergo likelyhood is they made their budget back at least.
-7Million "Even though all of this sounds really interesting, as a social MMO 7Million is still more of a large interactive chat room than an actual game, but it still has plenty of distractions to keep players busy." with minigames on top... I think this is IMVU's bastard brother.
-Rubies of Eventide: Launched on a donation system and ended 6 years after launch... I am no economy expert but sounds like it made its budget back and en some and by what I've read the source code was not made public so there's a chance it hasn't gone into the night fully.
-Earthrise: P2P game that got pushed out the door too soon, tanked because of it, F2P future still undecided.
-Fury: Mismanaged into the ground with a F2P conversion.
-Gods and Heroes: Still alive by what I can tell, B2P.
-Dungeon Empires: No clue what happened to this one, no news no nothing regarding its shutting down, Hell I can find twitter posts from the devs up until october regarding a patch then nadda, your guess is as good as mine.
Moar please
If you want a challenge, play pvp games. You mentioned PS2. It is never easy mode in that game, just because your opponent is human.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
Look, it's obvious you clicked through wikipedia for your replies, and painfully obvious that was the limit of your research and there is no actual familiarity with the titles or their histories.
Did you actually want an answer or just want to argue?
EDIT: my spelling sucks sometimes.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
"will"? It already does. Research (posted in other thread) shows that F2P players outnumber p2p players 6 to 1.
The number of players who want to play for free outnumbers those prepared to pay for a MMO. Amazing, any more insights from the world of the bleeding obvious?
Unfortunately apart from filling up space in a virtual world, how do those free players contribute to MMO’s or gaming?
Sure .. the key insight is that the industry can survive on a small fraction of whales. There is no need .. even no attempt to make a majority of players to pay.
Sure, free players serve as content for the paying customers, and give some hopes to the devs that they may be paying one day.
And btw, i am not looking to "contribute" anything. Gaming is just entertainment. Why would free players need to contribute to anything?
Because alot of those free players end up paying or buying something in the game....Even if its just 5 dollars, those 5 dollar donations add up when you get enough people......The genre would have probably been bankrupt by now had it stuck with the p2p philosophy....The tiems are changing and you either embrace it or are bitter and get left behind.
very casual and heavily solo orientated
lots of micro transactions
lots of telling the story at you, rather than letting you play the game (a trend in all games not just mmos)
lost of hand holding and tutorials, no letting you figure shit out for yourself and dropping you in the deep end
designed around cash shops and getting players to use the shop (again a trend in all games not just mmos)
prioritising things that look good when selling the game like graphics and voice work, over things that make the game FUN to play
less of an emphasis on being in a breathing world, more of an emphasis on Telling you a story.
this is a trend in gaming in general. Look at first person shooters, 90% of modern shooters are corridors and cutscenes, compare to older FPS where you could explore around, figure stuff out for yourself, unlock secrets etc..
I understand what you are saying, but the gaming industry is only reacting to the change in the gaming populations demographics. Sad to say, more and more people are taking the passive approach to these matters. They WANT to be told a story, they WANT to have their hands held. In other words, we are seeing more and more adults with the basic mentality and perspectives of children.
This isn't just the US. Its pretty much true through out much of the so called "developed" world. Its a very troubling circumstance, that is going to result in many bad things over the coming years. The gaming companies are simply reacting to it, in their pursuit of profits.
"In other words, we are seeing more and more adults with the basic mentality and perspectives of children. "
This is what happens when fun becomes more important than thinking. Entertainment is not just about fun, it should engage you, inform you, stretch you. When it does all those things it is far more satisfying.
Easymode MMO’s are like TV cartoons, the MMO genre could offer so much more.
If you end up paying you are contributing, if you mod you are contributing, if you run a fan site you are contributing, if you do a lot of crafting and keep the economy going, you are contributing. Some MMOs are more built for players who do not pay to contribute to the game. PS2 springs to mind, you are my opponent or my ally, you are contributing to the game from the moment you log in. But in a more traditional MMO you don’t make the game better by just logging in.
And why is contribution important, do we have to have that asked again? Games don’t grow on trees, they have staff who need paying, new content that needs investment. Also this is multiplayer, an opportunity for us all to make a game better. Don’t stick to those tramlines, a MMO or any other multiplayer game can be a richer experience if you give it a try.
Ah prognostication - always a minefield.
What they SHOULD do in my opinion is form a temporary conglommerate of companies, have each produce (in close liaison) the elements of a cooperatively produced MASSIVE MMO they are best at, and release it onto the world.
An MMO with a target 10,000,000 players and sub payment system would actually have a shot if this kind of cooperation happened.
Fat chance however...
future you come home house reconize you ask you what you wanne do you say playing<inserted name mmo or game> game starts on your screen everything that involves money automatically transfer from your bank to company of game and its all in cloud.
Your brain tap into system and you can fantasize any fantasy you want and engine generate that on the virtual reality screen.
No hardware or any typing needed only a holgraphic screen that when finished just vanish in thin air.
at final, all ll be back to old school mmorpg gameply,not soon but it ll happen at end
I disagree. Entertainment is about fun .. that is how it is marketed, and what people want from entertainment.
When i want to be informed, i read a Time magazine article, or a scientific paper. When i want to be engage, i have discussions with my colleauges. When i want to stretch, i learn a new scientific technique and apply it to my work.
Entertainment is when i pass time and relax my mind. If it informs ... sure .. i will take it as a side effect. But that is NOT what i look for when i use entertainment.
That is the same for movies, anime, and novels. Don't get me wrong, i don't avoid those things in my entertainment. For example, I love Lincoln the movie. However, it is NOT a pre-requsite for my entertainment. I love The Avengers as much.
The MMO genre, or any entertainment, should not forget fun in the name of playing the role not central to an entertainment product.
"When i want to be informed, i read a Time magazine article, or a scientific paper. When i want to be engage, i have discussions with my colleauges. When i want to stretch, i learn a new scientific technique and apply it to my work."
So Time or a scientific paper never amuses you, they are only ever a dry chore. Your colleagues never amuse you or stretch you?
Don’t pigeonhole bits of your life, get the most out of everything.