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  • LawtoweenLawtoween Houston, TXPosts: 103Member

    I definitely preferred DAOC's 8 to WAR's 6.  Multi-group grouping is essential in my book, or at least the ability to share a communication channel between groups.  One that isn't open to just anyone in the area to fill up with the events of the last high school dance they attended.

    Fully dynamic sizing is intriguing, but I have to wonder how the devs would implement the interface.  Clumping into smaller groups is likely necessary, so for ease of coding a fixed number is probably the best answer.

  • ArnfiarnunnArnfiarnunn eragnyPosts: 61Member Common

    I voted 8 because no 10. It allows to do not be worried by a group size limitation. I really liked it in darkfall.

    I'd like to see battlegroup with at least 50 too. We're not doing a random fight, we're marching to war! :D

    image
  • KappenWizKappenWiz Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 162Member

    Honestly, DAoC has this right. Just groups of 8 and make chat groups and battle groups etc. for larger forces. You can plan, coordinate, and manoeuver enough to start relic raids and bigger events.

    So, I really wouldn't build in anything bigger than a group size of 8. Let armies form from multiple groups. That's all they are in real life, anyway, platoons, companies, battalions...

    The thing that will be different this time is the implementation of voice chat from the get go. It's going to affect this game much earlier than it did  DAoC, and I'm curious to see how it will be planned for, whether considered, ignored, built in...whatever. Voice chat gave birth and helped foster the gank groups and 8v8'ers, but it didn't really pick up till at least a year after the game was out. People already knew each other on the servers, so they would chat in chat groups AND on voice. As time went on, the gank groups would stay almost exclusively on voice and you'd rarely see them in chat. If that happens too early in this game, not sure how "server pride" is going to develop.

    I'm very curious how this will be approached because ventrillo and teamspeak servers really create a game within the game, and if this is supposed to be about server pride, etc, it will be interesting to see how it plays out.

  • CananCanan Wedowee, ALPosts: 94Member
    Originally posted by Hairyzac
    Originally posted by Canan

    Eight. 8. Ocho. 

    Nothing less than this. I will never understand only allowing players to be in small groups in a MMO. This is one of the reasons why (in my opinion) SWTOR failed. Let me group with a reasonable amount of friends!!!

    SWTOR isn't an RvR game though.  The competitive PvP in SWTOR is ranked war zones, which require you to have an 8 person group.

    How does that refute my point? At the start of SWTOR there were ONLY groups of 4. That, in my opinion, was a mistake and turned a lot of people off at the game's beginning. There is no reason why any time of MMORPG should limit its players to a four person group (RvR game or not).

    So, back to my what I said before, please make the group size in CU 8 players.

     

     

  • ArnfiarnunnArnfiarnunn eragnyPosts: 61Member Common
    Originally posted by KappenWizI'm very curious how this will be approached because ventrillo and teamspeak servers really create a game within the game, and if this is supposed to be about server pride, etc, it will be interesting to see how it plays out.

    They could simply add the voice chat into the game like EvE did.

    And, what could be cool, make a voice chat around you like a /s. I love the idea of yelling to my enemies while rushing them or whisper to stay discret xD

    image
  • KappenWizKappenWiz Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 162Member
    Originally posted by Arnfiarnunn
    Originally posted by KappenWizI'm very curious how this will be approached because ventrillo and teamspeak servers really create a game within the game, and if this is supposed to be about server pride, etc, it will be interesting to see how it plays out.

    They could simply add the voice chat into the game like EvE did.

    And, what could be cool, make a voice chat around you like a /s. I love the idea of yelling to my enemies while rushing them or whisper to stay discret xD

    That's probably where you'd have to start nowadays. LOTRO did it too, pretty successfully. I'm just curious how it will play out. DAoC's groups were pretty segregated when it came to chat groups, especially as the game matured.

  • HokibukisaHokibukisa Midland, GAPosts: 185Member
    12

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  • HairyzacHairyzac Atlanta, GAPosts: 57Member
    Originally posted by Canan
    Originally posted by Hairyzac
    Originally posted by Canan

    Eight. 8. Ocho. 

    Nothing less than this. I will never understand only allowing players to be in small groups in a MMO. This is one of the reasons why (in my opinion) SWTOR failed. Let me group with a reasonable amount of friends!!!

    SWTOR isn't an RvR game though.  The competitive PvP in SWTOR is ranked war zones, which require you to have an 8 person group.

    How does that refute my point? At the start of SWTOR there were ONLY groups of 4. That, in my opinion, was a mistake and turned a lot of people off at the game's beginning. There is no reason why any time of MMORPG should limit its players to a four person group (RvR game or not).

    So, back to my what I said before, please make the group size in CU 8 players.

     

     

    You want 8 person groups and then rip swtor for having 8 person groups (claiming restriction to 4 is false).  So I guess I have to repeat myself because you didn't read what I wrote or didn't understand it the first time.

     

    Out in the world you could/can have any size group you want in swtor.  Only in normal war zones (not ranked) are you limited to 4 just like in a lot of games with objective-based map instanced pvp.  Q'ing up with a full 8 person group is reserved for ranked matches because normal war zones aren't meant to act as competitive ranked matches.  This is all very logical and makes sense.

     

    You are asking for 8 person groups for CU's competitive PvP and swtor's competitive PvP is ranked war zones with 8 person groups.

     

    /boggle

  • HairyzacHairyzac Atlanta, GAPosts: 57Member
    Originally posted by KappenWiz

    I'm very curious how this will be approached because ventrillo and teamspeak servers really create a game within the game, and if this is supposed to be about server pride, etc, it will be interesting to see how it plays out.

    I don't understand this comment.  Could you elaborate on why you feel ventrilo/teamspeak/mumble or what have you is a game within a game and ruins server pride?  To me your statement makes absolutely no sense at all.

     

    Voice chat is just a way to communicate with people on your server without having to type things out while you are doing competitive PvP.  You don't have time to stop and type out messages during a battle and people shouldn't have to read walls of text during a battle.  So we hop into our voice chat, and now we can communicate with people on our server a lot easier during combat.  Plus, now you are actually talking to people on your server.  You are hearing their voices and chatting and having a great time which strengthens your relationships with people on your server.

     

    Plus nowadays everyone has their "gaming groups" and friends and such with their own voice chat.  Players want to sit in their voicechat with their gaming friends and talk.  That is what players do.  Especially those who play MMOs.

     

    I would be confident in saying that we will all be using voice chat's we have been using for years when CU is released.  The devs most likely won't create their own CU voice chat in game because there are already many programs that do this (very well) where people already hang out.  Jacobs knows people aren't going to all of a sudden stop hanging out in their guild mumble and start hanging out in his cool CU-integrated voice chat.  WoW tried this and failed miserably.

  • Kryptonite_HiloKryptonite_Hilo Phoenix, AZPosts: 47Member

    What KappenWitz said makes tons of sense to me. I think it’s easy to see how each RVR group having their own Vent/TS/Mumble would isolate them from the rest of the realm. It’d be very easy to never talk to the realm mate standing next to you. Sure you could communicate with your own group, but you’re completely isolated from the rest of the players.

    Not to mention how annoying it is to have 3 different types of voice chat clients downloaded and needing to write down new log in information every time you join a new group. I was annoyed with it enough that I wouldn’t bother alt-tab’ing to enter in the info if it wasn’t a login that I already had preset.

    I’d love a well done in-game voice chat system.

  • HairyzacHairyzac Atlanta, GAPosts: 57Member
    Originally posted by Kryptonite_Hilo

    What KappenWitz said makes tons of sense to me. I think it’s easy to see how each RVR group having their own Vent/TS/Mumble would isolate them from the rest of the realm. It’d be very easy to never talk to the realm mate standing next to you. Sure you could communicate with your own group, but you’re completely isolated from the rest of the players.

    Not to mention how annoying it is to have 3 different types of voice chat clients downloaded and needing to write down new log in information every time you join a new group. I was annoyed with it enough that I wouldn’t bother alt-tab’ing to enter in the info if it wasn’t a login that I already had preset.

    I’d love a well done in-game voice chat system.

    What does being in voice chat have anything to do with talking to the person next to you on your realm?  

     

    /boggle

  • ArnfiarnunnArnfiarnunn eragnyPosts: 61Member Common
    Originally posted by Hairyzac
    Originally posted by Kryptonite_Hilo

    What KappenWitz said makes tons of sense to me. I think it’s easy to see how each RVR group having their own Vent/TS/Mumble would isolate them from the rest of the realm. It’d be very easy to never talk to the realm mate standing next to you. Sure you could communicate with your own group, but you’re completely isolated from the rest of the players.

    Not to mention how annoying it is to have 3 different types of voice chat clients downloaded and needing to write down new log in information every time you join a new group. I was annoyed with it enough that I wouldn’t bother alt-tab’ing to enter in the info if it wasn’t a login that I already had preset.

    I’d love a well done in-game voice chat system.

    What does being in voice chat have anything to do with talking to the person next to you on your realm?  

     

    /boggle

    Just use different push-to-talk buttons for diffenrents channels. I used to chat with ig voicechat of EvE + TS without any problem

     

    I say it again, but I REALLY love to see a local voice chat (not only your group, but around you) in a mmo.

    image
  • Teh_AxiTeh_Axi HalifaxPosts: 380Member
    8 seems about right for a small group in RvR.
  • Lore84Lore84 NorthamptonPosts: 69Member

    8 is the right full group size. I wouldn't describe that as a small group either really....unless you compare it to a zerg.

     

    I think having limitless numbers is pointless and un-focused. If you wanted to run a zerg, you just get a few groups together. That is a boring style of game play anyway.

    Ex-DAOC, Excalibur

  • DocaresDocares SittardPosts: 9Member

    We dont even know how the classes are designed..

    Are they designed for group play (roles) where you need to be grouped to get the buff /speed/heal/protection or whatever.

    If not players will group up anyway in very large groups.. probably not even being in a group(ui) just running together.

     

    Personly i hope they design classes with roles with abilities only usable on group members

    The roles being:

    -Magic Caster(easy killable)

    -Cleanser/magic protector/CCer  Caster/rezzer (no damage)

    -Melee damage dealer

    -Protector/persons blocker/ CCer(knockbacks)  melee player(hard to kill/low damage/protects against melee and arrows)

    -Buffer/debuffer/cleanser/healer/rezzer Caster (no damage)

    -short range speed/buffer(more powerfull)/healer(more powerfull) /cleanser/resser melee dealer (some damage, harder to kill then normal melee damage dealer)

    -ranger(tracker and archer far low damage slow attacks, and average in melee damage. Can also hide and see foodprints of people -> skills, and place or disable traps )

     

    And a solo play class that cant group and only have self buffs)

    - assasin ( melee damage dealer but only good in finishing off people that have less then 70% hp (fast).. attacking someone with full health would mean he does almost no damage(except if he is in the shadow world). And can open gates in and out of the shadow world where they will be invisible of people in the normal world, but can see people in normal world)

    (ranger can follow an enemy assasin into the shadow world and can stay there for a few minutes. Gates of assasins will always stay open for a few seconds but can only be seen by assasins and rangers)

     

     

    So a group could excist out of:

    2 melee damage dealers and a short range buffer. A debuffer/healer Caster and a normal caster. Being protected by a protecter and a magic protecter. And a ranger for tracking or hiding foodprints and range damage or put down traps for ambushes.

    And 2 random class slots to make to groups more different (tactic choise how to fill in other 2 slots)

     

    So 10 man groups

     

     

     

  • Niix_OzekNiix_Ozek Calgary, ABPosts: 397Member

    He has stated in one of his FP that there won't be as many classes etc.

    I'm assuming by this fact the group sizes won't be too large, I hope they go 8, but I cannot see them going more than this. It worked perfectly in DAOC, and most people i hear complain about the 6 size in WAR, and 5 in WOW sucked too.

    Ozek - DAOC
    Niix - Other games that sucked

  • SpeelySpeely Seattle, WAPosts: 861Member
    If group heals and buffs work similar to the daoc method, then 8. However, there could be any number of design choices that could call for larger or smaller groups. We will have to wait and see. Maybe there won't be groups at all...

    ...

    ...just kidding.
  • KappenWizKappenWiz Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 162Member
    Originally posted by Hairyzac
    Originally posted by Kryptonite_Hilo

    What KappenWitz said makes tons of sense to me. I think it’s easy to see how each RVR group having their own Vent/TS/Mumble would isolate them from the rest of the realm. It’d be very easy to never talk to the realm mate standing next to you. Sure you could communicate with your own group, but you’re completely isolated from the rest of the players.

    Not to mention how annoying it is to have 3 different types of voice chat clients downloaded and needing to write down new log in information every time you join a new group. I was annoyed with it enough that I wouldn’t bother alt-tab’ing to enter in the info if it wasn’t a login that I already had preset.

    I’d love a well done in-game voice chat system.

    What does being in voice chat have anything to do with talking to the person next to you on your realm?  

     

    /boggle

    Maybe you use voice chat and in-game text chat, but that doesn't mean that the majority of voice chat players do. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it or whatever, just an observation. As DAoC went on, the 8v8'ers more and more went solely to voice chat, and the RvR chat group activity dropped drastically. Typically, you'd have one person, at most, from a voice chat group interacting in the chat group. You'd try to talk to someone in game, and no response. Then maybe every once in a while, someone in the group would say something like, "he's in Vent, not looking at chat."

    My point is, this is something that developed after the release of DAoC, after relic raids were already run, and after players on a server knew each other, so it wasn't so bad. The community already was built. Currently, as you have pointed out, players already have their own servers, their own friends from other games who they know can play or not. Those voice chat servers will be fired up Day 1. It will have an impact.

    CU is supposed to be built around Realm Pride, forced grouping, community interaction, etc. My experience is the vast majority of premades in voice chat were about running around finding 8v8 fights (in fact, often just setting them up in voice chat with players from other realms) looking for RPs. If something realm wide was happening, they might join, they might not, most often, they did whatever would garner the most RPs. That's definitely not supposed to be the intent of this game, so I'm just curious how it will be approached.

    I don't have any problem with that playstyle. Allowing people to just roam the frontiers is great. I like that a game have times when nothing is reallly happening, that's when players come up with creative and oddball things to do. Just saying there's gonna be a balance between focusing on realm activities and personal activities and if things like voice chat aren't taken into consideration, RvR will be dominated by the gank groups and you could have a situation where the more "casual" players won't participate (again).

  • TasarocaTasaroca durhamPosts: 16Member

    just some things i think are relavent to this discussion

    from what i have read so far  mark is talking about an open world as in no RVR areas where ppl go to do RVR  or PVP

    you want to do RVR or PVP then you going to be going to (say if your a viking) briton or hiburnia and doing coastal raids on villages monastarys for loot(small group pvp/rvr/ looting) or invading and taking control of areas (taking keeps/controling land ect) which would be large group RVR

    small group PVP will need to be very salective  of when you show your faces if you attack a town full of crafters and fighter looking to buy things your quickly going to get swomped by lots of ppl

     

    also the size of groups are going to be dependent on game macanics  such as

    how many ppl do i need to crew this longboat to sail to briton to raid and loot them 10 -20  40?

    i think the group system will have to accomidate these things  again i see EVE as a good example for this

    small groups of up to 10  9 and 1 leader

    5 groups to a wing with a wing leader

    5 wings to a fleet with 1 fleet commander

    a fleet chat window to aid comms

    such a structure will allow both small medium and large groups  for  any sanario minimum group size 2 max 250

    have something like a group window with your groups health bars like in daoc  groups take care of there groups with small window  if you die ask in (fleet) chat for a rez if in a larger groups

    i know classes will effect group sizes but the actual game machanics will be just as importent

     

    oh and voice chat  well these are now in major use in just about every mmo  they will be used in cu like it or not

    in eve they are mainly used in corp(guild) or alliances  for internal comunications  and inter alliance diplomacy

    every one still types in chat channels  to talk to local ppl not in there corp(guild) or alliance  selling things banter scaming people recruitinig  now players to guild starting fights having arguments complaining  you know all the usual good stuff  we all love to hate :-)

    Tasaroca Troll ( I am not a buff bot damit) Shamy

    Midgaurd /Prydwen / EU

  • ReeSkylrReeSkylr Castle Rock, WAPosts: 4Member
    Originally posted by KappenWiz
    Originally posted by Hairyzac
    Originally posted by Kryptonite_Hilo

    What KappenWitz said makes tons of sense to me. I think it’s easy to see how each RVR group having their own Vent/TS/Mumble would isolate them from the rest of the realm. It’d be very easy to never talk to the realm mate standing next to you. Sure you could communicate with your own group, but you’re completely isolated from the rest of the players.

    Not to mention how annoying it is to have 3 different types of voice chat clients downloaded and needing to write down new log in information every time you join a new group. I was annoyed with it enough that I wouldn’t bother alt-tab’ing to enter in the info if it wasn’t a login that I already had preset.

    I’d love a well done in-game voice chat system.

    What does being in voice chat have anything to do with talking to the person next to you on your realm?  

     

    /boggle

    Maybe you use voice chat and in-game text chat, but that doesn't mean that the majority of voice chat players do. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it or whatever, just an observation. As DAoC went on, the 8v8'ers more and more went solely to voice chat, and the RvR chat group activity dropped drastically. Typically, you'd have one person, at most, from a voice chat group interacting in the chat group. You'd try to talk to someone in game, and no response. Then maybe every once in a while, someone in the group would say something like, "he's in Vent, not looking at chat."

    My point is, this is something that developed after the release of DAoC, after relic raids were already run, and after players on a server knew each other, so it wasn't so bad. The community already was built. Currently, as you have pointed out, players already have their own servers, their own friends from other games who they know can play or not. Those voice chat servers will be fired up Day 1. It will have an impact.

    CU is supposed to be built around Realm Pride, forced grouping, community interaction, etc. My experience is the vast majority of premades in voice chat were about running around finding 8v8 fights (in fact, often just setting them up in voice chat with players from other realms) looking for RPs. If something realm wide was happening, they might join, they might not, most often, they did whatever would garner the most RPs. That's definitely not supposed to be the intent of this game, so I'm just curious how it will be approached.

    I don't have any problem with that playstyle. Allowing people to just roam the frontiers is great. I like that a game have times when nothing is reallly happening, that's when players come up with creative and oddball things to do. Just saying there's gonna be a balance between focusing on realm activities and personal activities and if things like voice chat aren't taken into consideration, RvR will be dominated by the gank groups and you could have a situation where the more "casual" players won't participate (again).

    Exactly.  I hated the gank groups,  that becomes frustrating and who wants to waste their time and money?  Maybe they just need an area all their own, because obviously some like it.

    I don't know what to do about Vent, etc.  I disliked other realm friends popping in the vent and finding out what we were doing also.  Next thing you would know, we were ambushed.  Hated it.

     

    Silj - Midgard/Guin

  • FRENZYHFRENZYH StockholmPosts: 2Member

    6. Even before this thread got made I was thinking this for myself.

    Im totally for 8 player groups of course, they worked great in daoc. But cmon guys, dont you remember the times where you needed 1-2 people to have a full group?

    6 player groups would be awesome, something like 2 tanks 2 casters 2 support.

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