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I was stealth before it was easy!

TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless ColumnistM, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon

I'm not the kind of guy to throw whip out my epeen and talk esmack but this just has to be said. I was stealth before it was easy mode for bad players and gankers.

Stealth never used to be easy invisible mode. Back in my day on Ghost Recon 1 and 2 stealth meant walking slow as to not make a bunch of noise. It meant observing frequent player patterns then stalking those routes. It mean crawling/jumping/running into seemingly impossible places to wait for a player to run by. It was selecting my gear to match the map so I could blend in with my surroundings. It meant using less powerful weapons because they made less noise.

I applied this same technique in Darkfall and was a successful steathy player without any kind of transpart mode.

Stealth isn't a cast, it's a playstyle.

But!...

I'm not entire closed minded. I understand we now have a whole generation of ezStealthers that can't bear the idea of old school stealth so I'll throw you an invisbone here and say I would support "the predator" style stealth but I want to add some consequences to balance out so much win. For example you move slower in stealth (running is not stealthy), the stealth cast has a timer so you cant sit in predator mode for hours, and maybe, just maybe if you get spotted and attacked first while in stealth you are dazed for a second.

#stealthstrong

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Comments

  • HairyzacHairyzac Atlanta, GAPosts: 57Member
    I like your vision of what you want stealth to be like in CU.  I agree stealth shouldn't just persist forever and if someone finds you in stealth having a penalty seems to make a lot of sense to me.
  • OdamanOdaman Satesboro, GAPosts: 194Member

    I don't see how comparing stealth in an fps to mmo stealth even begins to be the same thing. Stealth on timers ends up being in combat stealth and I'd deal with permastealth all day long if it means I don't have to deal with people going invis mid fight because they messed up in the first place. I was under the impression missing out on your alpha strike was the main drawback to being detected early. 

     

    So basically... stealth should crawl, have no alpha strike, be timed, and stun you if you are detected. What is the benefit of stealth at that point? To hide on the other side of trees and buildings like a visible and be slow as hell otherwise? Sounds worth it to me. Over many of your posts on this I have to wonder if you're trolling or even played daoc as a reference. Normally I wouldn't waste time of this sort of thing, but you're very vocal and I'm scared MJ might get the wrong idea.

  • aleosaleos na, INPosts: 1,863Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Odaman

    I don't see how comparing stealth in an fps to mmo stealth even begins to be the same thing.

    Define action combat for me please.

  • OdamanOdaman Satesboro, GAPosts: 194Member
    That question is as rigged as asking me what a sandbox is. It'd be faster to say a tab target mmo doesn't have action combat. It also doesn't have crouch/prone states or camo to achieve what some FPSs can in the realm of stealth. Landscapes tend to be barren or able to turned off for the sake of low end pcs being able to run the game at a decent frame rate. Thinking outside the box is fine, but not every aspect of the game should be a grand experiment with no real basis in the genre you want it thrown into.
  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Odaman
    I don't see how comparing stealth in an fps to mmo stealth even begins to be the same thing. Stealth on timers ends up being in combat stealth and I'd deal with permastealth all day long if it means I don't have to deal with people going invis mid fight because they messed up in the first place. I was under the impression missing out on your alpha strike was the main drawback to being detected early.  So basically... stealth should crawl, have no alpha strike, be timed, and stun you if you are detected. What is the benefit of stealth at that point? To hide on the other side of trees and buildings like a visible and be slow as hell otherwise? Sounds worth it to me. Over many of your posts on this I have to wonder if you're trolling or even played daoc as a reference. Normally I wouldn't waste time of this sort of thing, but you're very vocal and I'm scared MJ might get the wrong idea.

    Considering the simplicity and shallow gameplay of a FPS vs a MMO my point is that if I was able to stealth in a gamestyle as archaic as an FPS then MMOs should be even easier to truly stealth in if your careful, planned and creative about it. Not to mention MMO combat is far more complex so I would expect even better means to truly stealth in an MMO without resorting to the cheep invis version.

    You conveniently ignored the fact that I was very successful in utilizing stealth to sneak up on players in Darkfall which is obviously an MMO. You also ignored my compromise solution, probably because it is a "common ground" approach that makes sense for stealthers and non stealthers utilizing predator stealth. The benefit of stealth under that system is that you are nearly invisible, which should be more than enough for you to successfully sneak up on someone, especially if I was able to do so in Darkfall ;) Certainly a player of basic skill, that thinks ahead, considers terrain and distance then uses the predator stealth would have a high success rate against non stealth players. I see it as asking the stealth players to up their game and play the way the non stealth players have played for ages utilizing realistic combat approaches.

    Lets make a pretty basic comparison. If warriors had a move where they shoot you from extremely far away (farther than anyone else can shoot) and get teleported to your position while also performing an opening strike most players would say that isn't fair. Well, speed running while using compete invis stealth is the same thing.

    I hope MJ does read and consider my posts about stealth. I'm not trolling, trolling is criticizing for the sake of harassing without offering any solutions to the problem.

    If my posts are making invis fans nervous, then they must be evening the playing field (because as I know most stealthers don't like a fair fight). They prefer to sneak up, try for an easy crit win, and if it fails vanish and run away. That just doesn't sound like balance to me, and thats exactly why I did it for years in WOW (always with a stealth friend and on either my beat druid or rogue). It was an easy win and it never felt like a fair fight (other than when Pallys bubble hearthed lol).

  • Niix_OzekNiix_Ozek Calgary, ABPosts: 397Member
    I hope you're trolling too, I don't think you understand how stealth was in daoc where all these people are defending permanent stealth
    It wasn't skill less, a bad stealthers would get creamed all day long by visibles and other stealthers
    Not to mention you sound pretty cocky, maybe go pick up daoc and see how "good" you are at stealth and don't compare wow rogues
    Wow is a pve game where rogues are designed to compete with all other dps classes

    Ozek - DAOC
    Niix - Other games that sucked

  • Plastic-MetalPlastic-Metal Highland Heights, KYPosts: 405Member

    It's important to note that I prefer not to play stealth classes.  However, I have played them as alts - just not mains.  The problem with stealth classes is not stealth, it's high critical strike front end damage. However, if the community sincerely wants to address getting rid of stealth as an ability, there's other ways to do it.  I personally don't have a problem with stealth classes as it stands; adapt and learn to play against something, or die - it's that simple; unless something is blatantly overpowered.

    I've posted in another thread about a viable solution to remove 'perma' stealth and still provide a stealthy element:

     

    • Agility, light armor based class
    • Stealth comes from hiding in shadows/near structures, but is not 100% invisible; if you're standing next to it, you can see it - completely invisible during night time day cycles
    • Allow the use of poisons and diseases, even traps
    • Increased survivability through the use of escape techniques, not in-combat abilities to render targets unable to respond.  Literally means to allow the player to escape from death.
    • The only class capable of climbing walls into keeps, towers, and other structures
    • Utilizes two primary spec trees:  Close range (dual wield or fist combat) or Ranged (short bow, long bow); both cannot be obtained, but players can dual spec to be an 'average' well rounded recon class.
    • Introduce Sabotage:  allows the class to go completely invisible, increases movement speed by 100%, lasts 15 seconds.  While sabotage is active, the player may sabotage an enemy's siege equipment or structure's wall/door causing it to temporarily critically fail or cause significant damage.  During this time period, the player cannot attack for 20 seconds.  If sabotage is successful, stealth duration increases for an additional 5 seconds.  Cannot use in combat.  (This allows players to have both stealth, serve a purpose for the realm, additional 'get away' skill, and allow undetected scouting.)
    • Reintroduce Safe Fall:  allow the class to take reduced damage from falling higher distances.
    • Reintroduce Vanish:  allow the class to vanish in combat, but make it an ability earned by sacrificing something else. Increased movement speed by 150%, last for 10 seconds, but suffers an attack penalty if discovered.
    Obviously, it may need a little refinement.  Nonetheless, the true problem with stealth classes is not stealth, it's high critical strike front end damage.  Fix that and most of the complaints should go away.  Decent ideas, Xobdnas, but like I'll say to anyone else..  you can't compare apples to oranges, or in this case, FPS to MMOs; it's entirely different genres.

    My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

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  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Niix_Ozek
    I hope you're trolling too, I don't think you understand how stealth was in daoc where all these people are defending permanent stealthIt wasn't skill less, a bad stealthers would get creamed all day long by visibles and other stealthers Not to mention you sound pretty cocky, maybe go pick up daoc and see how "good" you are at stealth and don't compare wow roguesWow is a pve game where rogues are designed to compete with all other dps classes

    I'm way to invested in this community to troll it. I did not play stealth in DAOC so I will take your words on it working better than WOW or WAR or GW2. As a former stealther myself, I really honestly cant see how being completely invisible is not easier and OP vs the transparent predator stuff. I also find it hard to believe stealthers have begun to rely entirely on a simple click go invis button.

    Back in my FPS days I spent weeks playing with a guy that I can only describe as a ghost. He mauled everyone, every time, every map. Finally after getting killed by him long enough I found his trick. Always picked camo for the map, always stood against a camo style backdrop, like a tree, a tire, anything to give him some camo and create an angle where he was safe from behind (and if he could 1 side). I played, I learned, I was top 100 in the world eventually. My post was light hearted but not cocky. I really did utilize stealth to a point of game domination but if I was cocky I wouldnt point out that if it wasnt for the guy I learned from I'd still be a run n gun FPS players.

    In WOW I generally ran the AVs I was in and I always lead a stealth group while running the raid, again to lost of success.

    But thats all in the past. I've moved onto MMOs because I view the combat as deeper and more complex. I miss that, I want that to come back. I wanna see skill in my MMOs again and I view people that are good with translucent stealth as more skilled than poof invis players.

  • Plastic-MetalPlastic-Metal Highland Heights, KYPosts: 405Member
    I should have added this to my original post:   Stealth classes in Dark Age of Camelot are entirely different beasts than what's found in other games.  If Camelot Unchained is the spiritual successor to Dark Age of Camelot, which it is, it really, really helps to have been exposed to that style of gameplay.  I'm not saying if you've never played it your points invalid, because that would be absolutely insane.. but it's like some of the community requesting action targeting combat systems  - it leaves a lot of veteran DAoC players scratching their heads.

    My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

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  • Niix_OzekNiix_Ozek Calgary, ABPosts: 397Member
    First stop bragging lol
    Second : explain what you mean by "easier and OP"
    Daoc was a Rock Paper Scissors game stealthers destroyed casters but had tough time vs tanks, I would venture a bet most people against stealthers that played daoc were either really bad, unbuffes, or Casters
    All are completely invalid cases to complain about stealthers when they were in essence designed to climb walls and take casters out quickly
    If they couldn't do this, they would have no purpose in keep warfare , they are too low HIt point, poor armor to Stand visible and do anything but die
    And if they couldn't climb walls and drop casters quickly they would have to suicide to have any chance at doing anything
    They had their "rock" purpose and the people that complained and still complain were the same ones that were able to two shot other people yet didn't think that was ever a problem
    It's in essence (IMO) a needed class in a Rock Paper Scissors game

    Ozek - DAOC
    Niix - Other games that sucked

  • RedempRedemp Hot Springs, ARPosts: 1,042Member
     You honestly can't compare camping in a FPS to a Mmo. That's going to be the main problem with your post, the discussion will hover around it forever. It's simply not the same thing, and sticks in peoples craws. Now ... DF is another matter.
  • PoporiPopori Hickory Grove, SCPosts: 334Member

    I have no issue with stealth ala DAoC, I thought it was fun (except Infiltrators and Dragonfang/PA spam lol).  I include in that statement that stealthers shouldn't be able to see each other, even in groups.  It adds to the challenge of gank squads and organizing stealth parties.  It may be a PITA but so is getting jumped by 5 assassins.

    I'd like to see ranger type classes be able to track stealthers and have a higher than average ability to detect them/find stealth trails etc.  Tanks can withstand their attacks but really no one can pressure them when they're hiding or have them be at risk of being exposed outside of their own choices.

    Now this mechanic shouldn't be click the button and all rogues pop up in your face, but it should be useful enough to be...well, useful and put pressure on the rogues and get rid of the 'stealth sanctum' most MMOs give them.

    If it is a true rock/paper/scissors game there should be classes specifically designed to make life harder for a stealther.

  • ArnfiarnunnArnfiarnunn eragnyPosts: 61Member Common

    I like the stealth how they are in Warhammer, not imbalance with only few sec of stealthing.

    I like it how the stealth is in PS2 too, not completly stealth, just transparent. They have to be careful and hide.

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  • tleartlear Toronto, ONPosts: 142Member

    I used to play as a stealth Thane, was my first char :) since I was all about realm pride I would hang out in Odin's gate in off hours and watch for  inc. It was actually very rare for people to spot me if I did not want to be found. You just needed to know the trees to hide behind. I used the ghetto PA let them past on the road, sprint single whack to pop the barrier then slam most people absolutely freaked out and never saw me coming.

  • falcukfalcuk ashfordPosts: 41Member

    Lol you simply cannot compare FPS stealthing to Daoc Stealth... ever.

     

    So many variables, its not just a button you push to become invisible, theres spec points behind that button that alter the level of stealth you have, gear bonuses etc, then you have Assassin Stealth and Archer Stealth, one is inherently weaker than the other, although archers get a Camo ability that boosts there level up on a timer.

     

    Then theres running in 8 man visi team, you know theres stealthers around, garaunteed, so you take measures to pop them, PBAEOing known hiding places etc.

    its a game of cat and mouse

  • fanglofanglo Virginia, VAPosts: 290Member
    Originally posted by Niix_Ozek
    First stop bragging lol
    Second : explain what you mean by "easier and OP"
    Daoc was a Rock Paper Scissors game stealthers destroyed casters but had tough time vs tanks, I would venture a bet most people against stealthers that played daoc were either really bad, unbuffes, or Casters
    All are completely invalid cases to complain about stealthers when they were in essence designed to climb walls and take casters out quickly
    If they couldn't do this, they would have no purpose in keep warfare , they are too low HIt point, poor armor to Stand visible and do anything but die
    And if they couldn't climb walls and drop casters quickly they would have to suicide to have any chance at doing anything
    They had their "rock" purpose and the people that complained and still complain were the same ones that were able to two shot other people yet didn't think that was ever a problem
    It's in essence (IMO) a needed class in a Rock Paper Scissors game

    I played a caster and my main issue wasn't the assassins but rather the archers. Before the archer patch in DaoC you could see nearly every class running around solo and enjoying life. Some of my fondest memories were on my eld or druid running around fighting thurgs, warlocks, necros, reavers, skalds whatever. Each class brought it's own unique challenge. Heck back then fighting the archers weren't that bad. After the archer patch, it essentially turned archers into invisible casters with longer range, less dps and more escape tools. To make up for the lack of dps they would group and the solo visibles gave up. Just wasn't fun getting shot from 2000+ range when most classes dps spells are 1500 range or less. Sure there was long range cc/ns but stealthers had way to many tools to counter that and get away if the going got rough.

    Heck today I was solo'ing on my druid and a hunter pops me, gets me down to like 10% health or so, I pop my rr5 get back to full life put my pet on him, root his pet and procede to start dotting him. Wham he presses his self speed and damage immunity buttons and easily gets away. So frickin dumb. Archers killed the solo game in DaoC. If you want them in CU they shouldn't have longer range than most casters, they shouldn't be able to easily get away from fights if they go bad (they pick the fight).

    I healed Mistwraith and all I got was this stupid tee-shirt!

  • falcukfalcuk ashfordPosts: 41Member

    Fanglo you make no sense, your complaining cos a clothie couldnt kill a stealther who couldnt finish you off and had to use lots of abilities to escape, while you even admit to using an RR5 ability to heal back to full, you expect him to say "oh i didnt finish you, guess i should stand and die now".

    Fact is, Archers have to hope they burn you down fast before you kill them, what with all your bubbles and crystal guards, its not like their big opener does much dmg to casters nowadays either.

    I have an rr8 Ranger and a RR5 Hunter and Scout, i know how each Archer class performs in Daoc, and taking on a caster is a huge risk, forget about picking on anyone with a shield either.

  • zimboy69zimboy69 chicargo, FLPosts: 375Member Uncommon

    i still believe that just removing the red name above your  head should be stealth and nothing else

    then if you hide    you can be stealty  but ruunning though open ground towards a enemy is not a good idea

    jumping out   and attacking  plus the ability to get lost  in the confusion of a a battle would  be  much more relistic

    and even if  your being chased as long as you can break  line of sight  you  can really  make terain work for you  and become  hidden again

    just imagin chasing some  rogue/thief character and they run in to a group of bushes   you have noidea where they went ,but  you  think they are in the bushes  you could try to aoe  them  out ,  they could   have  sneaked away  while  your  wondering where they went 

    they could even be  shooting you with a bow  from within  the bushes forcing you  to withdraw

     

    a much better way to do stealth

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  • SwiftrevoirSwiftrevoir Largo, FLPosts: 156Member

    I guarantee that if you try to stealth as you have mentioned before in a large RvR scenario I will run straight to you and plant a two-handed something right between your ears.  Unless you're hiding in the bushes or in the trees there is no way you'll go unseen with so many eyes darting back and forth.  We are not Skyrim npcs.

    This is all dependent on whether it is a closed map or an open world however.  In an open world fight there will be a near infinite number of ways to approach and places to hide.  If we're talking about an instanced battleground type arena then no you would never get away with stealth like that (okay you MIGHT be able to grab the occasional guy taking personal time behind a boulder).

  • SpeelySpeely Seattle, WAPosts: 861Member
    For those who hate invisibility:

    If you want more "realistic" or "skill-based" stealth, then you need more realistic perception abilities. There would have to be only a first-person camera.

    If I can't be invis then you can't have eyes in the back of your head. That is "skillless easymode."

    Armor should make noise if it's medium, and lots of noise if heavy.

    Realistic night.

    Just a few thoughts.



  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by PerfArt
    For those who hate invisibility:If you want more "realistic" or "skill-based" stealth, then you need more realistic perception abilities. There would have to be only a first-person camera. If I can't be invis then you can't have eyes in the back of your head. That is "skillless easymode."Armor should make noise if it's medium, and lots of noise if heavy.Realistic night. Just a few thoughts.

    I'm down with all of that. Thats exactly how Darkfall worked and it was an absolute blast. I actually purchased headphones just so I could hear people trying to sneak up on me better. When someone did get the drop on me (and it happened a lot despite my paranoia) I instantly had respect for their abilities.

  • SpeelySpeely Seattle, WAPosts: 861Member
    I could get behind that. (Pun intended lol sorry)
  • Niix_OzekNiix_Ozek Calgary, ABPosts: 397Member
    Originally posted by fanglo
    Originally posted by Niix_Ozek
    First stop bragging lol
    Second : explain what you mean by "easier and OP"
    Daoc was a Rock Paper Scissors game stealthers destroyed casters but had tough time vs tanks, I would venture a bet most people against stealthers that played daoc were either really bad, unbuffes, or Casters
    All are completely invalid cases to complain about stealthers when they were in essence designed to climb walls and take casters out quickly
    If they couldn't do this, they would have no purpose in keep warfare , they are too low HIt point, poor armor to Stand visible and do anything but die
    And if they couldn't climb walls and drop casters quickly they would have to suicide to have any chance at doing anything
    They had their "rock" purpose and the people that complained and still complain were the same ones that were able to two shot other people yet didn't think that was ever a problem
    It's in essence (IMO) a needed class in a Rock Paper Scissors game

    I played a caster and my main issue wasn't the assassins but rather the archers. Before the archer patch in DaoC you could see nearly every class running around solo and enjoying life. Some of my fondest memories were on my eld or druid running around fighting thurgs, warlocks, necros, reavers, skalds whatever. Each class brought it's own unique challenge. Heck back then fighting the archers weren't that bad. After the archer patch, it essentially turned archers into invisible casters with longer range, less dps and more escape tools. To make up for the lack of dps they would group and the solo visibles gave up. Just wasn't fun getting shot from 2000+ range when most classes dps spells are 1500 range or less. Sure there was long range cc/ns but stealthers had way to many tools to counter that and get away if the going got rough.

    Heck today I was solo'ing on my druid and a hunter pops me, gets me down to like 10% health or so, I pop my rr5 get back to full life put my pet on him, root his pet and procede to start dotting him. Wham he presses his self speed and damage immunity buttons and easily gets away. So frickin dumb. Archers killed the solo game in DaoC. If you want them in CU they shouldn't have longer range than most casters, they shouldn't be able to easily get away from fights if they go bad (they pick the fight).

    Again like most people posted, most of DAOC references were before ToA, before archer changes, etc etc. So don't compare after that.

    Also in a rock paper scissors, there is very little chance a druid ( healer ) should be able to take down an archer. Also if you were properly positioned on top of him you could have re dotted or pet could hit him and break his speed etc. etc.

    This is not the best example of why stealth might suck.

     

    As for the

    Ozek - DAOC
    Niix - Other games that sucked

  • Niix_OzekNiix_Ozek Calgary, ABPosts: 397Member
    Originally posted by Xobdnas

     


    Originally posted by PerfArt
    For those who hate invisibility:If you want more "realistic" or "skill-based" stealth, then you need more realistic perception abilities. There would have to be only a first-person camera. If I can't be invis then you can't have eyes in the back of your head. That is "skillless easymode."Armor should make noise if it's medium, and lots of noise if heavy.Realistic night. Just a few thoughts.

     

    I'm down with all of that. Thats exactly how Darkfall worked and it was an absolute blast. I actually purchased headphones just so I could hear people trying to sneak up on me better. When someone did get the drop on me (and it happened a lot despite my paranoia) I instantly had respect for their abilities.

    Again, this isn't a FPS ( First person Shooter ), most MMO's have the ability to go FPS, but no one has fun playing them like that so no one did. Stop bringing darkfall into these discussions...       -it is not the same-

     

    Ozek - DAOC
    Niix - Other games that sucked

  • VanshoodieVanshoodie Russellville, ALPosts: 34Member
    Personally I liked the stealth in EQ2, when a scout went in stealth in eq2 yes they moved slower and there is the chance of being detected. Scouts could also use a stealth in combat. That mechanic is mostly for pve so they can dump aggro. In pvp the in combat stealh only caused people to drop target... not lose visual. I think that worked fine. Now please don't quote me as saying eq2 had overall great pvp. It didn't, i just thought that their adaptation for stealth in pvp combat worked well.
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