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Pre-WoW how often we're MMOs crappy?
MMOExposed
Member RarePosts: 7,387
Back before WoW, what was the ratio of good MMOs to crappier MMO?
this is based on your opinion. And how would you compare that ratio to the MMO genre every 3 years after WoW released in 2004?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Comments
Before WoW, there were far less people that expected every MMO to be made specifically for them. More importantly, there were less expectation of what an MMO "should be" so there was more acceptance of different types.
It's not that there are more or less 'crappy' MMOs before or after WoW.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You know, I've asked myself this question before, and not only in the MMORPG genre. I only played Everquest before World of Warcraft and looking back, it doesn't seem like it was a good game. I'm not certain what magic it had back then - maybe I was just younger and less jaded. The world did seem more imaginative than more recent offerings, but when I log into it I can't play it. The UI is especially dated and the game systems are not clearly presented as they are in modern games. It's not just technology that has changed, it's people's expectations. When I play a game, I except clarity in how to play it. I expect it to be approachable. Everquest and its generation are hard games, and while there is a certain mystique they have over the current generation, I don't miss the lack of polish.
To address your question of crappy games to good ones, I don't think that was a consideration. There weren't a million new MMOs coming every week, there were only a handful and they all had dedicated followings.
So you believe if more people would lower their expectation of what a MMO should deliver, than there would be more huge smashing titles?
well what cause this rise in expectation? I havnt seen much to give me a reason to see a rise in expectation .whats the cause?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
I think it's pretty obvious that WoW raised the bar. Then everybody and thier dog tried to copy it, for the most part very poorly.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Nothing has changed outside of there being a larger amount of people playing MMOs. Its the same ratio of people complaining, complaining about complainers and trolls.
Nothing you or anyone else can say will make me forget the uproar near the end of Anarchy Onlines beta and the month following its release...nothing will make me forget the flamwars that spread from the Lore websites onto IGN and others...nothing will wipe away the massive in game protests of DaoC about how bad Mythic was treating Hybernia and how they were ignoring the massive RvR imbalance...nothing will change how during the making of EQ2 and AC2 people were talking about how DaoC runied the genre creating massive amounts of developer handholding that is bleeding into newer games.
WoW was only a byproduct of previous games ideas with a few new ones thrown in.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
I tend to agree with this. All the other games I played up until WoW were sandbox style and they all involved a lot of grinding. WoW did a great job of disguising the grind with quests and showing/leading you to other areas where more mobs were level appropriat for a more smoother leveling experience (mostly). Also the two distinct factions and world pvp was done so much better compared to the other games I was previously playing. Blizzard was just taking advantage of being at the right place at the right time and they struck gold with it. The proof is in the pudding and they have shown us how big their pudding bowl is.
Edit: I also want to say that during pre-WoW, internet MMO databases were fewer and farther between with hardly any good and reliable quest/mob info. Finding good grinding areas was a lot harder back then becuase you just couldn't really look stuff up on the internet and find. Not to mention a lot of players tended to keep their good grinding spots under wraps just like RL hunters and fishermen. Thus this made a questing based MMO like WoW a god-send for me,..at the time.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
My first mmo was EQ. At the time I played it in 99 through to 2004, I knew of UO. Lineage and Darkage of Camelot either contemperary or comming out during those years. - I think Runescape was a browser game and dont consider it an mmo (snob that I am)
So untill the news broke of an SWG in the works, and Lineage 2 going beta, you really could count on one hand the mainstream MMO games available at the time. - In 2004 world of warcraft was in friends and family beta, and I quit EQ to playtest the game. - A few other titles came out during the year of wow testing. I think swg might have launched, and I think EVE was in the works or near launch. There were a couple of pvp centric western developed games as well. All of them were successfull and long lived. EVE is a good example. And I think Funcoms pvp title is still alive as well. Along with EQ and the others ofcourse barring swg (sadface)
So to answer your question, there was no mmo crappyness because mmo's as a mainstream fastfood type of entertainment did not exist. You could not fx purchase one game, whine about it, and try another, and another and another and another. There simply werent enough, and they were so diverse that it was easy to choose where you fit in. - We took breaks when rl broke down due to this new exiting gaming, but we didnt go on the non existing mainstream gaming websites to whine with other people. - We NAG'd on our server forums mostly, or read alone on Fires of Heaven website.
The discontentment we have now stems from our awareness of how the game mechanics work or should work, and wether they can be consumed at a rate we find agreeable.
When we stepped into the mmo stream the first time - we did not have preconceptions, we knew not the mechanics underlaying everything. We thought if we could imagine it, surely the developers could too, and thus the ship might get attached by a dragon, or the orc commander might actually figure out a smart way to waylay us while we travelled.
Today you consider how likely it is, based on cost and time consumption that a developer would include this or that into the game and your keen eyes observe the stitching, the quality of the fabric and NOT ONLY the way the game feels to play and what wonderfull surprises might come along.
So, we have changed as players and we are much harder to surprise let alone enthrall and delight.
And as everything else that goes from niche to mainstream quality, dilutes to the hero of quantity. Kind of like how music works that way too - in game specifically; we are nolonger purely fed by other enthusiast gamers, but by big cooperations with shareholders to consider, who hold the game developers to high expectations with little to no interest in the mmo gaming industry themselves, those expectations being money, not innovative risky new horizons to the mmo genre.
My list of MMOs, pre-2004:
UO, aside from massive launch issues, no, not crappy.
EQ, great alternative to UO, almost its complete opposite, not crappy
Asheron's Call, unique alternative to both of them. Aside from the graphics, definately not crappy.
Anarchy Online.. was ok, once launch was sorted out. Not crappy, but didn't really grab me.
DAOC, best MMO so far, all things considered.
SWG, pre-NGE, pretty damn good, too.
CoH, fun for a few months, but kinda shallow. Crappy, though? Nope, wouldn't say that.
EVE, not everyone's cup of tea, but really well done, for what it is.
Earth & Beyond.. ok, yeah have to agree with the above poster. It had its appeal, but even more shallow than CoH. Might call this one crappy. I wasn't surprised to see it go under.
Anyhow, that's my take on pre-WoW MMOs. Am I forgetting any? Really, I'd say none of them were as bad as the WoW clones we saw later. They each had some unique appeal that set them apart, and made them feel new and interesting for a while. They didn't suffer from that immediate "been there, done that" feeling of later MMOs that all followed a much more rigid formula.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
As to expectations, it was more like you had to work more to get something done then wow came along and made it easier and quicker. That changed expectations. Imagine you got paid $20.00 per hour, then your boss gave you $100.00. How would you feel about going back to $20.00 per hour.
The player base then became more vocal. Feeding the beast as they say in hollywood. You cave into demands and they want more. Human nature. Now people don't want to pay for anything and have large expectations.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
WoW did not do that jesus christ people...
Yes, with Evercrap you had to wait hours on end for a mob to spawn to kill it....that was the ONLY game to do that.
Ultima Online was fast to end game...Asherons Call didnt make you wait for a thing...Anarchy Online? Nope, sorry. Star Wars Galaxy didnt even have LEVELS...
Where is this magical world where World of Warcraft made things easy? If anything, they made things more GRINDY, have to do the same flipping instance 100s of times in hopes to get a gear set...had to PvP for 1000 hours for that rank...and then for that PvP set.
WoW didnt make it easier and quicker. It added MORE grind.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
It's true that wow copied from many other games. For me, before wow, City of Heroes character creator was a breath of fresh air.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Wow was quicker in leveling. The term grind perdates wow. Derp.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Back before (and the years follow wow release and after that) there was actually a good deal of games that today would be called crappy (including wow itself) the thing was they were far less numberous and players were far less picky about things. Heck, talk about the original greats like Everquest or DAOC or Ultima Online. Those games were all considered great games yet they had plenty of flaws about them.
Its just we are so spoiled today that the quality we got back then wouldn't fly. SWTOR itself is really not a bad game, far better then say WoW on its launch, however we have such a cynical view on games and we can so quickly switch to other games it was bashed into the ground. Sure, it wasn't a shining gem even if we did take that away, but it actually would of been looked on as a 'good game' if it was released in the past.
Its less of how 'crappy' MMos were back then, as much as it is "How low were our standerds and forgiveness back then" cause let me tell you, if wow launched today, I'd be confident it would sit about where Rift stands right now which isn't bad, but its no where near what the power it has now.
I never said anything about lowering expectations. It's odd expectations, if anything. Almost every MMO that has deviated from the level-based class-restricted gear-dependent formula has done poorly, and a good part of that is the relentless negative rampages that people go on when an MMO isn't an updated version of EQ or WOW. A great example of that is Chronicles of Spellborn. It wasn't a bad game. It was simply too different. After WOW, any MMO that deviated from that formula was considered niche. Worse, people brough their odd expectations them and left disappointed.
Here's another great example: AION. They said it was open PvP from 30 on up. One of the big selling points was that these rifts would open up and attackers could go through. What did the NA/EU audience expect the gameplay to be like post 30 in a level 1-60 eastern-developed PvP game? Why did they expect anything other than what they got? It's not odd to expect it to be something other than exactly what they said it would be?
There's some odd expectation that a new game will repeat the same gameplay but somehow will magically not have the same issues the previous one did.
On the flip side, when a game deviates too much and actually does try something new, the appeal is far lower.
So if it isn't odd expectations, then it's that players just want an updated EQ/WOW experience... which, to me, seems like an odd expectation.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Congrats, you just based a game being good or not on how fast one could level. You could hit max level in Asherons Call without ever even playing via Vassals and oh, BTW, it took 5 days for the first level 50 in DaoC....see, it really was a crap game! Derp.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
No it has nothing to do with lower expectations. Less people had expectations. They just "showed up" the world was what it was and they found thier own fun.
I had a blast one Saturday in Lineage 2 when me and my clan leader, desparate to make money, kept running the same dark elf village quests over and over because we needed to make money.
We never said "oh this sucks". We acknowledged that this was a way we could make money so we did it.
Other people schlepped no grade shots to gludio because there were people in that area who still used them. The "schleppers" then sold them at a small profit and then ran back to the starter areas to buy more.
The didn't complain or have lowered expecatations. they just found ways to make money which was enjoyable.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I am trying to remember what MMOs existed before WOW or at least around the same time. So from Ultima Online on, because while there were online games like Meredian 59 and such they were not big MMOs.
Ultima Online was one of the first and one of the best MMOs ever released. You can still play it.
Everquest was the biggest hit. When that game came out they used up all the bandwith in the San Diego area. They had to change a lot of things because of that game. It was one of the best MMOs ever. You can still play the game.
EVE Online. I think it came before WOW. A massive hit still to this day.
Asheron's Call. This was an excellent game but it was not as big a hit as the other MMOs. I am pretty sure you can still play this game.
Horizons. This game came out before WOW, there were massive problems with it and it evolved from a couple of different versions. This was one of the first big flops that you would consider a crappy MMO. It did have an incredible crafting system though.
SWG. Lots of people were waiting for this MMO and for a few months everything was fine, then people started to leave because there was little to actually do in the game. It was the first big technical flop. You could not even play it the first day. The game had massive bugs that existed until they shut it down. Most people think SWG was a great game, not so. It was never a great game but it did have revolutionary game systems. Too bad they could not get out of their own way. The combat upgrades and NGE gave this game....well, you know the story.
Dark Age of Camelot. This was a pretty big game. You could solo a lot better than in EQ, and lots of EQ people were ready to move on to another game. Another rose colored glasses type of game. Things worked, and it was ok....but not good enough to put it in the same category as EQ or UO.
Lineage. This was a huge hit, and I think still is. A very big Asian MMO. It was also the first MMO to have that massive Asian grindy thing going on....plus boobs, oh lots of boobs.
Lineage II. I think this was another big game, this one might be the one with the boobs and stuff.
Anarchy Online. This was from funcom and was actually a decent MMO. I think you can still play it. Some things worked, some things did not but it was kind of unique at the time. I would not call this game a flop, but I would not call it a huge hit either.
Final Fantasy XI. Big time, massive hit especially over seas.
City of Heroes. Huge hit and a suprising hit. This game was always a pretty good game. I think they shut it down this year.
Everquest II. This game was SOEs "almost" second huge flop. They had to turn things around real fast in this game. This was the first game where people whined about it being too difficult. It was a lot more like EQ1 when it first came out. Now you cannot really tell the difference between this game and WOW. This was the game that you can draw a line at and say from this point on things started to change.
There were a few other minor games like Runescape (which I think was actually a big hit) and Ragnarok Online...
So before WOW, most of the games were hits. There was not a lot to choose from, so that helped a bit. The big flop fests were Asheron's Call 2, SWG Horizons and EQ2 until they changed it.
I'd add Ragnarok Online and Phantasy Star Online to the list. Seems all of the old MMORPGs kept trying to go w/ out of the box unique ideas but all up until WoW had crappy UI/Inconistent graphics. Not many post-WoW have been any good since imho. DDO I thought was really good and was unique and had some fresh mechanics that weren't in other MMOs but hey... its DnD so it's expected. A few others held my interest for a short time but nothing long term. They're all too similar and I get the... been there, done that vibe with them.
God did not create from the the foot of man to slave her, he did not create women from the mind of man to control her but he created women from the rib of man because it is closest to his heart.
There has been such a tremendous change in player expectations for games. Just the fact that a game had a fully realized 3D world was enough to blow peoples minds then. Watching characters run around on your screen and realizing those were other players was mind blowing in the beginning. So much of what was novel and fresh and exciting back then is so completely standard today that it no longer has the any effect.
In order to recapture some of the wonder and awe players felt from their first MMO experiences, games need to somehow keep coming up with new, novel concepts. If the idea behind this thread is to suggest that games of old had something that modern games do not, I'd counter suggest that the games of old, if rebranded and released as something new, wouldn't hold the smallest fraction of players compared to their other modern competitors.
If someone really can't identify the hundreds of vast improvements MMOs have undergone over the years, they are simply clinging too tightly to nostalgic memories.
Just because there are "improvements" doesn't mean that people want, like or agree with those improvements.
Many of those improvments that people tout aren't my cup of tea.
If a few of the games on the horizon don't pan out I'm seriously thinking about going back to L2 and just staying. I don't like some of the additions they added but it still has many thigns I grew to love and would love to have back. probably never will but perhaps that's why the old games are still running.
Heck, DAoC still has an active playerbase as does EQ.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Umm...huh? SWG had over 100k more players than DaoC at its peak until right after NGE came out...that is when people started leaving the game...which, BTW was Nov of 2005, a full year AFTER WoW was released. SWG was the second biggest MMO success after EQ1 until WoW came out.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
By today's standards, probably all of them. WoW was the first MMO that had a really good UI that was completely customizable. I lost count at a thousand times I had to answer the question in old MMOs "How do I exit?" lol. If you took any of the old MMOs and released to with today's community, they would all fail worse than what any of the MMOs in the last few years have done. MMOs are one of the few genres where the community can completely destroy a game. Since MMOs are mainly about socializing and doing things with other people, you have to have "good" people to do things with.
One of the main reason I still play MMOs at all is because of my friends. Outside of my circle of friends (about 100 in WoW, 75ish in Rift), it seems the players are all 8 year old, dramamongers, ranters, or just plain idiots. The communities' of older games is what made them great, not the games themselves.