Permadeath means I won't play a title. Hands down.
Someone needs to keep Smedley away from any mmorpg title. His track record of running potentially good titles into the ground doesn't look too good to me. I have no faith in that man. Him and Brad McQuaidshouldn't touch any mmorpgs ever again.
I think that characterizing people who want character death and those who don't want character death as ‘hardcore’ on one side and ‘casual’ on the other is grossly misrepresenting the debate.
I am, by most definitions I've seen, a casual gamer. I only have maybe 4-6 hours a week that I devote to gaming, these days, even though I used to play a great deal more. I'm uninterested in PvP (although I appreciate its existence in a game world for freedom's sake, I don't actively seek it out) and despise raiding (raids are clusterfucks—I hate clusterfucks). I'm not competitive, I don't enjoy Schadenfreude, I'm not masochistic, and I'm not looking to stroke an e-peen.
I'm a causal PvE guy who basically plays to enjoy the setting.
However, I am all in favor of character death.
Not because it's ‘hardcore’ but because it's death. Removing it from the realm of possible consequences dramatically cheapens any conflict in the world. If no one can be killed, what the hell is any person in this world trying to accomplish by going into combat? It makes the gameplay seem even more psychotic than it already does.
A world with thousands of unkillable superheroes constantly fighting unkillable foes is... interesting, but the setting is almost never built to acknowledge the situation.
It also baffles me that people opposed to character death always seem to assume a game in which is designed to ‘kill’ your character just as often as any other, which I'm sure is the assumption from which the idea of it as a ‘hardcore’ feature comes. It has always seemed obvious to me that you would, instead, design such that defeats are not fatal by default. Make being killed (whether by AI or another player) appropriately significant for something that could relieve you of your character. Remember, in the original EverQuest, falling into unconsciousness before death? I don't think it's difficult to imagine how to develop even just that simple idea into a workable and very scalable death system.
Don't make the world as a whole a giant grind arena and unless you choose to challenge death, it shouldn't be a reasonable concern.
Yeah, I'd hate to lose my character. Pretty sure anyone should. We hate to lose characters in RPGs, too, but we're mature enough to not ragequit those—maybe because playing an RPG isn't like slaving away at a data entry job. In an RPG, no one thinks of a dead character as ‘lost work’ like a spreadsheet lost in a power outage, but as a story that has concluded. Let character death encourage better game design.
If SOE attempts it with EQN and it fails? Also good. It'd demonstrate a way in which not to do it. Let's not be so afraid of mistakes that we don't have any opportunity to learn from them.
Of course, I would much rather it work out.
Favorites: EQ, EVE | Playing: None. Mostly VR and strategy | Anticipating: CU, Pantheon
Sony Online Entertainment's John Smedley has sent out a cryptic and very interesting Tweet today indicating that Everquest Next just may feature permadeath.
I am not interested in this feature at all. None of the other EQ's had permadeath as a feature, so why bring it to EQN? The people that will flock to this game will be the long time fans, and if we wanted that feature in an EQ game it would have been brought up before. It hasn't, so there you go.
My concern is that it will play out like SOE's Wizardy Online. The touted the whole permadeath thing, but it ended up being permadeath-lite. When you died there was a chance (a good one) to come back, and if you bought items from the Cash Shop then you were guaranteed a ressurection. I have no desire to see a similar mechanic in EQN. Zero.
Has no one mentioned EVE yet? It has permadeath (sorry, it does, perma death doesn't have to mean hardcore diablo style death). Everyone just seems to love that game on this site, so I don't see where the complaints are coming from.
It's all in the implementation. And I'm all for them trying. In a way, it's like item decay, it adds a kind of sink to the game that can prevent overinflation and enhance other aspects of gameplay.
Sony Online Entertainment's John Smedley has sent out a cryptic and very interesting Tweet today indicating that Everquest Next just may feature permadeath.
UPDATE: SOE's Dave Georgeson has rebutted Mr. Smedley's permadeath Tweet by saying, "There is NO permadeath in EQN and we wish the permadeath rumor would die a permadeath."
eq2gu Nope. Not happening. Many of us here like permadeath, but no.
Sony Online Entertainment's John Smedley has sent out a cryptic and very interesting Tweet today indicating that Everquest Next just may feature permadeath.
I am not interested in this feature at all. None of the other EQ's had permadeath as a feature, so why bring it to EQN? The people that will flock to this game will be the long time fans, and if we wanted that feature in an EQ game it would have been brought up before. It hasn't, so there you go.
My concern is that it will play out like SOE's Wizardy Online. The touted the whole permadeath thing, but it ended up being permadeath-lite. When you died there was a chance (a good one) to come back, and if you bought items from the Cash Shop then you were guaranteed a ressurection. I have no desire to see a similar mechanic in EQN. Zero.
Actually they did try permadeath on Discord and it was a complete flop.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
I think that characterizing people who want character death and those who don't want character death as ‘hardcore’ on one side and ‘casual’ on the other is grossly misrepresenting the debate.
I am, by most definitions I've seen, a casual gamer. I only have maybe 4-6 hours a week that I devote to gaming, these days, even though I used to play a great deal more. I'm uninterested in PvP (although I appreciate its existence in a game world for freedom's sake, I don't actively seek it out) and despise raiding (raids are clusterfucks—I hate clusterfucks). I'm not competitive, I don't enjoy Schadenfreude, I'm not masochistic, and I'm not looking to stroke an e-peen.
I'm a causal PvE guy who basically plays to enjoy the setting.
However, I am all in favor of character death.
Not because it's ‘hardcore’ but because it's death. Removing it from the realm of possible consequences dramatically cheapens any conflict in the world. If no one can be killed, what the hell is any person in this world trying to accomplish by going into combat? It makes the gameplay seem even more psychotic than it already does.
A world with thousands of unkillable superheroes constantly fighting unkillable foes is... interesting, but the setting is almost never built to acknowledge the situation.
It also baffles me that people opposed to character death always seem to assume a game in which is designed to ‘kill’ your character just as often as any other. It has always seemed obvious to me that you would, instead, design such that defeats are not fatal by default. Make being killed (whether by AI or another player) appropriately significant for something that could relieve you of your character. Remember, in the original EverQuest, falling into unconsciousness before death? I don't think it's difficult to imagine how to develop even just that simple idea into a workable and very scalable death system.
Don't make the world as a whole a giant grind arena and unless you choose to challenge death, it shouldn't be a reasonable concern.
Yeah, I'd hate to lose my character. Pretty sure anyone should. We hate to lose characters in RPGs, too, but we're mature enough to not ragequit those—maybe because playing an RPG isn't like slaving away at a data entry job. In an RPG, no one thinks of a dead character as ‘lost work’ like a spreadsheet lost in a power outage, but as a story that has concluded. Let character death encourage better game design.
If SOE attempts it with EQN and it fails? Just as good. It'd demonstrate a way in which not to do it. Let's not be so afraid of mistakes that we don't have any opportunity to learn from them.
Could you please point me to a single adventure based MMO that hasn't made death a common occurance? I can tell you from experience that Wizardy Online, which is SOE's current perma death hack and slash MMO, death is not exactly rare, in fact it happens a lot more than you would expect for a perma-death mechanic. No matter how fun and entertaining an MMO may be, it still requires a lot of effort and time investment, all of which I would not like to see thrown down the drain for any reason other than I decide to delete it myself. I can deal with XP loss and even loss of a recently gained level, both of which can be rectified with minimal frustration. Perma-death, even if given 100 total lives and the ability to sacrifice hard earned gear for insurance, is a deal breaker for me.
Has no one mentioned EVE yet? It has permadeath (sorry, it does, perma death doesn't have to mean hardcore diablo style death). Everyone just seems to love that game on this site, so I don't see where the complaints are coming from.
It's all in the implementation. And I'm all for them trying. In a way, it's like item decay, it adds a kind of sink to the game that can prevent overinflation and enhance other aspects of gameplay.
The perma-death lovers on this site are in the minority. That is why you are seeing so many of us normal gamers coming out against this.
Originally posted by SBFord UPDATE: SOE's Dave Georgeson has rebutted Mr. Smedley's permadeath Tweet by saying, "There is NO permadeath in EQN and we wish the permadeath rumor would die a permadeath."
eq2gu Nope. Not happening. Many of us here like permadeath, but no.
Has no one mentioned EVE yet? It has permadeath (sorry, it does, perma death doesn't have to mean hardcore diablo style death). Everyone just seems to love that game on this site, so I don't see where the complaints are coming from.
It's all in the implementation. And I'm all for them trying. In a way, it's like item decay, it adds a kind of sink to the game that can prevent overinflation and enhance other aspects of gameplay.
Could you please point me to a single adventure based MMO that hasn't made death a common occurance?
I'm not sure what you mean. If by ‘death’ you mean the possiblity of not winning in combat, of course that's common, and I don't make any suggestion that it shouldn't be. If by ‘death’ you mean death, then usually it's not possible.
Part of what I'm saying is that not winning doesn't have to equal death. We should be used to this notion by now because we're used to not dying when we lose, as that is the norm. I don't want to suggest that we change that, but expand on it.
Originally posted by Vorthanion
No matter how fun and entertaining an MMO may be, it still requires a lot of effort and time investment, all of which I would not like to see thrown down the drain for any reason other than I decide to delete it myself.
Being in presumably good psychological health, of course you wouldn't like something unpleasant to happen. I'm with you there. But that's why I think it's valuable as a risk. A high risk for high-risk situations.
It also allows the fiction to not disintegrate in cases where, you know, people are not supposed to actually be immortal. Whereas if they are, then whatever.
Also, maybe you've never played RPGs, but if you have, did you have the same kind of ‘down the drain’ mentality regarding the loss of a character? I've just never seen that happen, so I find the difference curious.
Originally posted by Vorthanion
I can deal with XP lose and even loss of a recently gained level, both of which can be rectified with minimal frustration. Perma-death, even if given 100 total lives and the ability to sacrifice hard earned gear for insurance, is a deal breaker for me.
A game basically designed like EQ or WoW or otherwise your typical MMO except that you can't recover from defeat doesn't even occur to me when the subject comes up. The possibility of actual character death should, I think, obviously entail that you are not killed so simply; that you do not simply replace respawning with not respawning.
I see more than one way to go about it, but one of the sorts of things I immediately imagine is something like a base lethality rating for various enemies, influenced by your standing with their faction. It should take serious hatred (or an intrinsically lethal nature) to want to actually kill someone they defeat in combat, and players should want to take appropriate extra care approaching such enemies if they dare to.
PvP would certainly be a riskier affair, as always, that I'd like to avoid if possible, but EVE's security/CONCORD/bounty system makes sense to me in this context.
Originally posted by OgreRaper
Permanently losing my toon because of a lag spike sounds super fun. Glad they squashed that stupid rumor.
I'd agree that's not a reason to die, and that's one of the reasons that death should not be so simple as ‘You take x damage. You have died.’ I don't think anyone but the staunchest Internet tough guys claim to want that, and I'm not even sure they're serious.
Favorites: EQ, EVE | Playing: None. Mostly VR and strategy | Anticipating: CU, Pantheon
Smed is just trying to troll people and getting attention like donald trump does. He cannot stand not being in the limelight and being the center of attention. If EQnext released with permadeath it would be company suicide regardless of what the few here that like permadeath think.
I won't be playing an online permadeath game ever. The risk of losing hundreds of hours of progress to a server/connection hiccup just makes even the best game that a human could create not worth playing for me.
My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.
Originally posted by SBFord UPDATE: SOE's Dave Georgeson has rebutted Mr. Smedley's permadeath Tweet by saying, "There is NO permadeath in EQN and we wish the permadeath rumor would die a permadeath."
eq2gu Nope. Not happening. Many of us here like permadeath, but no.
Thank you David, via Susan. I was really, really worried there.
Any wagers this one still appears in forum arguments 10 years from now?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Comments
Yes. If not permadeath, then MASSIVE xp loss. Bring some excitment back to the fight, make me believe something is actually at stake! Ahh yes. YES.
If there are no consequences, you don't care. When you don't care, it becomes mindless and boring.
If the average person can do it without problem, it's probably not worth doing.
There are two kinds of people in this world. People who pick their nose.. and liars.
Permadeath means I won't play a title. Hands down.
Someone needs to keep Smedley away from any mmorpg title. His track record of running potentially good titles into the ground doesn't look too good to me. I have no faith in that man. Him and Brad McQuaid shouldn't touch any mmorpgs ever again.
A promising bit of cryptic teasing, for me.
I think that characterizing people who want character death and those who don't want character death as ‘hardcore’ on one side and ‘casual’ on the other is grossly misrepresenting the debate.
I am, by most definitions I've seen, a casual gamer. I only have maybe 4-6 hours a week that I devote to gaming, these days, even though I used to play a great deal more. I'm uninterested in PvP (although I appreciate its existence in a game world for freedom's sake, I don't actively seek it out) and despise raiding (raids are clusterfucks—I hate clusterfucks). I'm not competitive, I don't enjoy Schadenfreude, I'm not masochistic, and I'm not looking to stroke an e-peen.
I'm a causal PvE guy who basically plays to enjoy the setting.
However, I am all in favor of character death.
Not because it's ‘hardcore’ but because it's death. Removing it from the realm of possible consequences dramatically cheapens any conflict in the world. If no one can be killed, what the hell is any person in this world trying to accomplish by going into combat? It makes the gameplay seem even more psychotic than it already does.
A world with thousands of unkillable superheroes constantly fighting unkillable foes is... interesting, but the setting is almost never built to acknowledge the situation.
It also baffles me that people opposed to character death always seem to assume a game in which is designed to ‘kill’ your character just as often as any other, which I'm sure is the assumption from which the idea of it as a ‘hardcore’ feature comes. It has always seemed obvious to me that you would, instead, design such that defeats are not fatal by default. Make being killed (whether by AI or another player) appropriately significant for something that could relieve you of your character. Remember, in the original EverQuest, falling into unconsciousness before death? I don't think it's difficult to imagine how to develop even just that simple idea into a workable and very scalable death system.
Don't make the world as a whole a giant grind arena and unless you choose to challenge death, it shouldn't be a reasonable concern.
Yeah, I'd hate to lose my character. Pretty sure anyone should. We hate to lose characters in RPGs, too, but we're mature enough to not ragequit those—maybe because playing an RPG isn't like slaving away at a data entry job. In an RPG, no one thinks of a dead character as ‘lost work’ like a spreadsheet lost in a power outage, but as a story that has concluded. Let character death encourage better game design.
If SOE attempts it with EQN and it fails? Also good. It'd demonstrate a way in which not to do it. Let's not be so afraid of mistakes that we don't have any opportunity to learn from them.
Of course, I would much rather it work out.
Hrmm.. *grumbles*
I am not interested in this feature at all. None of the other EQ's had permadeath as a feature, so why bring it to EQN? The people that will flock to this game will be the long time fans, and if we wanted that feature in an EQ game it would have been brought up before. It hasn't, so there you go.
My concern is that it will play out like SOE's Wizardy Online. The touted the whole permadeath thing, but it ended up being permadeath-lite. When you died there was a chance (a good one) to come back, and if you bought items from the Cash Shop then you were guaranteed a ressurection. I have no desire to see a similar mechanic in EQN. Zero.
Has no one mentioned EVE yet? It has permadeath (sorry, it does, perma death doesn't have to mean hardcore diablo style death). Everyone just seems to love that game on this site, so I don't see where the complaints are coming from.
It's all in the implementation. And I'm all for them trying. In a way, it's like item decay, it adds a kind of sink to the game that can prevent overinflation and enhance other aspects of gameplay.
For me! Fail!
Proud MMORPG.com member since March 2004! Make PvE GREAT Again!
Smedley and McQuaid have had more than enough to learn from.
"The first everquest didn't have permadeath"
And yet, the first EQ players still have no life. NAILED IT!
I do too. He is a genius with an IQ of 180+
That's about <insert random number here> more than the <insert target player group> has
Secrets of Dragon?s Spine Trailer.. !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwT9cFVQCMw
Best MMOs ever played: Ultima, EvE, SW Galaxies, Age of Conan, The Secret World
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2X_SbZCHpc&t=21s
.
.
The Return of ELITE !
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Actually they did try permadeath on Discord and it was a complete flop.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Can't say i'm a fan of losing 300 hours or even 3 hours of my time spent in a game.
Glad they've debunked this.
Could you please point me to a single adventure based MMO that hasn't made death a common occurance? I can tell you from experience that Wizardy Online, which is SOE's current perma death hack and slash MMO, death is not exactly rare, in fact it happens a lot more than you would expect for a perma-death mechanic. No matter how fun and entertaining an MMO may be, it still requires a lot of effort and time investment, all of which I would not like to see thrown down the drain for any reason other than I decide to delete it myself. I can deal with XP loss and even loss of a recently gained level, both of which can be rectified with minimal frustration. Perma-death, even if given 100 total lives and the ability to sacrifice hard earned gear for insurance, is a deal breaker for me.
The perma-death lovers on this site are in the minority. That is why you are seeing so many of us normal gamers coming out against this.
Thank you David, via Susan. I was really, really worried there.
Yeah.
Permanently losing my toon because of a lag spike sounds super fun. Glad they squashed that stupid rumor.
I'm not sure what you mean. If by ‘death’ you mean the possiblity of not winning in combat, of course that's common, and I don't make any suggestion that it shouldn't be. If by ‘death’ you mean death, then usually it's not possible.
Part of what I'm saying is that not winning doesn't have to equal death. We should be used to this notion by now because we're used to not dying when we lose, as that is the norm. I don't want to suggest that we change that, but expand on it.
Being in presumably good psychological health, of course you wouldn't like something unpleasant to happen. I'm with you there. But that's why I think it's valuable as a risk. A high risk for high-risk situations.
It also allows the fiction to not disintegrate in cases where, you know, people are not supposed to actually be immortal. Whereas if they are, then whatever.
Also, maybe you've never played RPGs, but if you have, did you have the same kind of ‘down the drain’ mentality regarding the loss of a character? I've just never seen that happen, so I find the difference curious.
A game basically designed like EQ or WoW or otherwise your typical MMO except that you can't recover from defeat doesn't even occur to me when the subject comes up. The possibility of actual character death should, I think, obviously entail that you are not killed so simply; that you do not simply replace respawning with not respawning.
I see more than one way to go about it, but one of the sorts of things I immediately imagine is something like a base lethality rating for various enemies, influenced by your standing with their faction. It should take serious hatred (or an intrinsically lethal nature) to want to actually kill someone they defeat in combat, and players should want to take appropriate extra care approaching such enemies if they dare to.
PvP would certainly be a riskier affair, as always, that I'd like to avoid if possible, but EVE's security/CONCORD/bounty system makes sense to me in this context.
I'd agree that's not a reason to die, and that's one of the reasons that death should not be so simple as ‘You take x damage. You have died.’ I don't think anyone but the staunchest Internet tough guys claim to want that, and I'm not even sure they're serious.
Well after his trolling today - I may like him a little less
My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.
Any wagers this one still appears in forum arguments 10 years from now?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Diablo...Diablo 2... Diablo 3....DayZ...
Remember Old School Ultima Online