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Horizontal progression? It's here.

OrtwigOrtwig Cambridge, MAPosts: 1,159Member Uncommon

People have been asking for horizontal progression for a long time; there was a huge outcry over it over on the GW2 forums with the Ascended Gear.  I'm here to tell you that horizontal progression is here in The Secret World.  No levels, no classes, only 10 levels of gear and no indication that more are coming.

In TSW, many think you get to "max level" by filling in the entire ability wheel and obtaining the 10.5 "quality levels" (QL) of gear.  And indeed some people are asking when "higher gear" is coming.  

But here's where I think people are getting it wrong.  When you complete the ability wheel, all you have achieved is maximum flexibility.  You can own every ability in the game, have access to the entire ability POOL, but the real power is in the 7 active / 7 passive decks slots, and you are limited to those 7/7 slots no matter if you have 20 abilities or all 525.  

Reward us instead with some awesome cosmetic outfits for completing the hardest content, maybe some quality of life items, and we have what everyone keeps saying they want -- horizontal progress.  Make the challenge about finding the right decks, and team combinations, not pure gear stats.  Push the ability wheel to it's limit -- you've got 77,258,540,228,633,700,000,000 possible decks  in TSW -- so the number possibility for variation (and challenging dungeon content to test those variations) is almost infinite. The devs have stated that future upgrades will be to the POOL of abilities not to the POWER of those abilities.  

TSW is about skill, flexibility and adaptability, not pure power.  You wanted horizontal progression?  It's already here.

P.S. No, I am not talking about the other sandbox stuff (owpvp, housing, crafting, economy, etc) -- I want that as well, but I am talking about eliminating the gear grind here.

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Comments

  • jimdandy26jimdandy26 salem, ORPosts: 527Member
    You should feel bad for misrepresenting the game. Of those billions of combinations all of 100 are really viable, and of those maybe 15 are competitive. Whats more, there is no content in the game that actually challenges the gear you have due to how their stats cap.

    I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

    To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  • OrtwigOrtwig Cambridge, MAPosts: 1,159Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    You should feel bad for misrepresenting the game. Of those billions of combinations all of 100 are really viable, and of those maybe 15 are competitive. Whats more, there is no content in the game that actually challenges the gear you have due to how their stats cap.

    Don't feel bad about a thing.  Yes, I know not all those combinations are viable, but I also know not every build has been found, as much as people like to preach that (we lack imagination, really).  What happens if a new boss is created that specifically trashes those "competitive" combinations?  Guess you'll have to adapt...  You're basing those 15 on what you've seen, not what is possible.

    Same thing happens in PvP.  Everytime the "one true build" comes along, another is made to trounce it.

    And I'm completely fine without a gear challenge.  I want a deck challenge.

  • dmm02dmm02 Springfield, MOPosts: 23Member
    problem is people flock to the #1 build at any given time. Most are not theory crafting and target dummy practicing or w.e for hours to hone their decks they simply google best deck TSW or w.e.. The gear is what keeps them coming not the build variability. If you make an encounter that requires you to change your build then said people are just going to again google / research what "deck to beat so and so".. only a small percent atleast in my opinion truly are challenged or put forth their effort to create decks / beat raid bosses / become great at pvp the rest just watch a youtube video or look at a skill tree build and repeat...
  • jimdandy26jimdandy26 salem, ORPosts: 527Member
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    You should feel bad for misrepresenting the game. Of those billions of combinations all of 100 are really viable, and of those maybe 15 are competitive. Whats more, there is no content in the game that actually challenges the gear you have due to how their stats cap.

    Don't feel bad about a thing.  Yes, I know not all those combinations are viable, but I also know not every build has been found, as much as people like to preach that (we lack imagination, really).  What happens if a new boss is created that specifically trashes those "competitive" combinations?  Guess you'll have to adapt...  You're basing those 15 on what you've seen, not what is possible.

    Same thing happens in PvP.  Everytime the "one true build" comes along, another is made to trounce it.

    And I'm completely fine without a gear challenge.  I want a deck challenge.

    You mean the deck challenge they have yet to give us? I have all my master planner outfits. Deck wise figuring out each instance was not very challenging at all. Running the parser to find out what stats to stack in what amounts took much more trial and error, but again that was due to the nonsensical stat system. Especially when the abilities themselves actually overwrite your stats! Promoting the game on what could be when they have shown no evidence of being able to deliver (especially on time) is foolish.

    I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

    To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  • RaysheRayshe London, ONPosts: 1,284Member
    Originally posted by dmm02
    problem is people flock to the #1 build at any given time. Most are not theory crafting and target dummy practicing or w.e for hours to hone their decks they simply google best deck TSW or w.e.. The gear is what keeps them coming not the build variability. If you make an encounter that requires you to change your build then said people are just going to again google / research what "deck to beat so and so"..

    Whats you point. Nerf the game so Theory crafters cant theory craft because some people will just google a answer.  Aparently games are no longer about what you enjoy instead its about getting Epic Epeen Gear with Epic Epeen Build.

     

    People who want to figure it out, will figure it out. People who are lazy will fumble with other peoples builds until they figure out how it works.

    Because i can.
    I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
    Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  • OrtwigOrtwig Cambridge, MAPosts: 1,159Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    You should feel bad for misrepresenting the game. Of those billions of combinations all of 100 are really viable, and of those maybe 15 are competitive. Whats more, there is no content in the game that actually challenges the gear you have due to how their stats cap.

    Don't feel bad about a thing.  Yes, I know not all those combinations are viable, but I also know not every build has been found, as much as people like to preach that (we lack imagination, really).  What happens if a new boss is created that specifically trashes those "competitive" combinations?  Guess you'll have to adapt...  You're basing those 15 on what you've seen, not what is possible.

    Same thing happens in PvP.  Everytime the "one true build" comes along, another is made to trounce it.

    And I'm completely fine without a gear challenge.  I want a deck challenge.

    You mean the deck challenge they have yet to give us? I have all my master planner outfits. Deck wise figuring out each instance was not very challenging at all. Running the parser to find out what stats to stack in what amounts took much more trial and error, but again that was due to the nonsensical stat system. Especially when the abilities themselves actually overwrite your stats! Promoting the game on what could be when they have shown no evidence of being able to deliver (especially on time) is foolish.

    The game system is better suited to being able to provide that challenge than any I've seen.  Ability wheel is closer to eliminating the gear grind than any I've seen.  In and of itself, that's huge.  You can piss and moan about release schedules (only 6 updates in 9 months -- wah!!), but we have something pretty awesome here.

  • dmm02dmm02 Springfield, MOPosts: 23Member
    Originally posted by Rayshe
    Originally posted by dmm02
    problem is people flock to the #1 build at any given time. Most are not theory crafting and target dummy practicing or w.e for hours to hone their decks they simply google best deck TSW or w.e.. The gear is what keeps them coming not the build variability. If you make an encounter that requires you to change your build then said people are just going to again google / research what "deck to beat so and so"..

    Whats you point. Nerf the game so Theory crafters cant theory craft because some people will just google a answer.  Aparently games are no longer about what you enjoy instead its about getting Epic Epeen Gear with Epic Epeen Build.

     

    People who want to figure it out, will figure it out. People who are lazy will fumble with other peoples builds until they figure out how it works.

    Why are you bashing me? This isnt just pretaining to TSW i am talking about most MMO games in general I am in agreement with what the OP is getting accross but the OP is saying that they should reward the players with cosmetic non stat / gear progession. Im simply saying they are cartering to the masses they have to if they want to keep their success(yes you can go on and on about niche games and like but lets avoid that here). I am all for increasing difficulty and allowing theory crafting im simply stating that most are simply going to google best way to beat so and so or best build for X class for most that Epeen Gear is what keeps them coming back

    "aparently games are no longer about what you enjoy instead its about getting Epic Epeen Gear with Epic Epeen Build." Have you played any AAA titles recently you pretty much summarized most of em right there

  • OrtwigOrtwig Cambridge, MAPosts: 1,159Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rayshe
    Originally posted by dmm02
    problem is people flock to the #1 build at any given time. Most are not theory crafting and target dummy practicing or w.e for hours to hone their decks they simply google best deck TSW or w.e.. The gear is what keeps them coming not the build variability. If you make an encounter that requires you to change your build then said people are just going to again google / research what "deck to beat so and so"..

    Whats you point. Nerf the game so Theory crafters cant theory craft because some people will just google a answer.  Aparently games are no longer about what you enjoy instead its about getting Epic Epeen Gear with Epic Epeen Build.

     

    People who want to figure it out, will figure it out. People who are lazy will fumble with other peoples builds until they figure out how it works.

    The bleeding edge players will have lots to do in figuring out the combination of abilities in their decks as well as the makeup of their team.  Sure, gear will play a part but it might require certain types of gear over others for a particular run.  Of course, the others who don't want to figure it out can just copy it, but they'll still have to figure out the timing, when to switch decks, figure out the dance between players -- it'll be a challenge in any case.  Sure, eventually everyone will figure it out, but it'll be a fun journey to get there.

    Another twist -- what if a Group Wheel is added?  Abiltiies that can only be triggered through coordination as a team?  Epicness.

  • Rthuth434Rthuth434 uniondale, NYPosts: 346Member

    there's more tiers of max level gear than GW2 here, and they will be added much more frequently. there's no horizintal progression outside of unlocking a number of skills.

    TSW progression is vertical and gated(raid/dungeon lockouts). PVP is all about gear difference.

     

  • Po_ggPo_gg Twigwarren, WestfarthingPosts: 2,729Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    You should feel bad for misrepresenting the game. Of those billions of combinations all of 100 are really viable, and of those maybe 15 are competitive. Whats more, there is no content in the game that actually challenges the gear you have due to how their stats cap.

    Not everyone's interested in competitve, best, elite, über mode...

    I, for example like to messing with the wheel, assemble interesting or funny decks and playing with them. Not viable? Sometimes :) Not competitve? Most of the times. But who cares? It's fun. Not to mention I rather help random pugs in normal with my scrappy but fun deck, than sitting in Agartha and listen to those elitist p***s spamming 18/18, etc :)

  • OrtwigOrtwig Cambridge, MAPosts: 1,159Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rthuth434

    there's more tiers of max level gear than GW2 here, and they will be added much more frequently. there's no horizintal progression outside of unlocking a number of skills.

    TSW progression is vertical and gated(raid/dungeon lockouts). PVP is all about gear difference.

    Sure, take your 10.5 gear into Fusang against the vets who know their decks well and tell me how well you do....  

    Gear progression is vertical up to QL10.5, but doubt we'll see much gear growth beyond that.  After you've got full QL10.5 gear and full wheel completion, it's all about who makes better decks.  So vertical through the game and seriously horizontal at endgame.  The challenge in both PvP and in the endgame content will be to the decks and the teamwork.

  • OrtwigOrtwig Cambridge, MAPosts: 1,159Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    You should feel bad for misrepresenting the game. Of those billions of combinations all of 100 are really viable, and of those maybe 15 are competitive. Whats more, there is no content in the game that actually challenges the gear you have due to how their stats cap.

    Don't feel bad about a thing.  Yes, I know not all those combinations are viable, but I also know not every build has been found, as much as people like to preach that (we lack imagination, really).  What happens if a new boss is created that specifically trashes those "competitive" combinations?  Guess you'll have to adapt...  You're basing those 15 on what you've seen, not what is possible.

    Same thing happens in PvP.  Everytime the "one true build" comes along, another is made to trounce it.

    And I'm completely fine without a gear challenge.  I want a deck challenge.

    You mean the deck challenge they have yet to give us? I have all my master planner outfits. Deck wise figuring out each instance was not very challenging at all. 

    lol I just realized you are talking about the pre-made decks.  Have you ever created your own custom decks?  If you think the outfit decks are what make up the game you have missed pretty much everything about what makes TSW amazing.  Do you understand active/passive combos?  Just want to make sure I am not missing something.

    The outfit decks are pretty much just the training wheels to the game.  

  • Agent_JosephAgent_Joseph SarajevoPosts: 1,070Member Uncommon
    I use(have) 50+ builds ,depend where I am & what I must to do

    only EVE is real MMO...but I am impressive with TSW

  • jimdandy26jimdandy26 salem, ORPosts: 527Member
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    You should feel bad for misrepresenting the game. Of those billions of combinations all of 100 are really viable, and of those maybe 15 are competitive. Whats more, there is no content in the game that actually challenges the gear you have due to how their stats cap.

    Don't feel bad about a thing.  Yes, I know not all those combinations are viable, but I also know not every build has been found, as much as people like to preach that (we lack imagination, really).  What happens if a new boss is created that specifically trashes those "competitive" combinations?  Guess you'll have to adapt...  You're basing those 15 on what you've seen, not what is possible.

    Same thing happens in PvP.  Everytime the "one true build" comes along, another is made to trounce it.

    And I'm completely fine without a gear challenge.  I want a deck challenge.

    You mean the deck challenge they have yet to give us? I have all my master planner outfits. Deck wise figuring out each instance was not very challenging at all. Running the parser to find out what stats to stack in what amounts took much more trial and error, but again that was due to the nonsensical stat system. Especially when the abilities themselves actually overwrite your stats! Promoting the game on what could be when they have shown no evidence of being able to deliver (especially on time) is foolish.

    The game system is better suited to being able to provide that challenge than any I've seen.  Ability wheel is closer to eliminating the gear grind than any I've seen.  In and of itself, that's huge.  You can piss and moan about release schedules (only 6 updates in 9 months -- wah!!), but we have something pretty awesome here.

    Except its not in the slightest. Abilities are roughly half how effective your build is, the other half being if you have the correct stats to be there. No matter how many abilities you have if you do not have a decent amount of pen and hit you will not beat Polaris for example. Besides part of your "pro" in the op is that "abilities will not go up in power, we will just get more of them" which is blatently false. Besides even looking at the wheel in its current state (where many abilities have wide variation of power levels) every other game that has attempted that has run into 2 problems. Either one, they copy a ton of abilities (like they have already done) or they introduce power creep and end up having to cycle abilities through (like all of the good/popular ccgs have done, you know that same process that the developers said ages ago the system was designed like).

    You are quite correct, the combat system has a TON of potential. Funcom however has no idea how to realize it though. I gave extensive feedback directly to the development team in closed beta and on the test server. I tested the raid with the dev. Every issue that are complained about I identified, and even offered different ways of fixing. They keep missing on key points because they do not know what they are doing. The raid is too complicated for a pug (without adequete tools I might add) but far too easy for any decently oragnized group. Lairs require far too much management for a pug (they get nothing out of it individually) and far too boring for an organized group. Most of the instance content does not even semi requre thinking thanks to how easy it is to just flatly overpower. You cannot mix and match parts of different levels of difficulty and expect things to go smoothly.

    As to content, yeah, they made promises full well knowing what kind of financial situation they were in. That writing was on the wall even before launch. I too didn't listen to those saying it was yet another trap by Funcom, because thats really what it was. The company itself is horribly managed. I frankly do not care who they have had to lay off, or who has quit and why. They are producing a service. A service that so far has had numerous problems, many of which are fairly gamebreaking and have yet to be resolved. Gear manager for example is STILL broken. Many of those abilities that you love so much still do not operate how they should according to the description. A couple of quests a month really is not too much to ask for considering just how much of those first couple updates were actually available in closed beta in slightly different variation. I mean hell, I, a complete novice, went from knowing absolutely nothing to creating Skyrim mods in less than a month. If I can one man show a quest one would think a team of 40 should be able to bang out a couple.

    Now honestly, I get it. You love the game and are trying your damnedest to see it succeed and grow. Thats fine. No matter how big a turd anything is there is always a chunk of people who will love it. It is the way of human nature. Whats not ok is completely misrepresenting how awesome the extremely flawed, rather mediocre overall title is to get people to do that. In the end you are actually doing more harm than good.

    I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

    To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  • jimdandy26jimdandy26 salem, ORPosts: 527Member
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    You should feel bad for misrepresenting the game. Of those billions of combinations all of 100 are really viable, and of those maybe 15 are competitive. Whats more, there is no content in the game that actually challenges the gear you have due to how their stats cap.

    Don't feel bad about a thing.  Yes, I know not all those combinations are viable, but I also know not every build has been found, as much as people like to preach that (we lack imagination, really).  What happens if a new boss is created that specifically trashes those "competitive" combinations?  Guess you'll have to adapt...  You're basing those 15 on what you've seen, not what is possible.

    Same thing happens in PvP.  Everytime the "one true build" comes along, another is made to trounce it.

    And I'm completely fine without a gear challenge.  I want a deck challenge.

    You mean the deck challenge they have yet to give us? I have all my master planner outfits. Deck wise figuring out each instance was not very challenging at all. 

    lol I just realized you are talking about the pre-made decks.  Have you ever created your own custom decks?  If you think the outfit decks are what make up the game you have missed pretty much everything about what makes TSW amazing.  Do you understand active/passive combos?  Just want to make sure I am not missing something.

    The outfit decks are pretty much just the training wheels to the game.  

    No, master planner. You know those achievements you get for completing each instance without changing abilities or talismans. You know that thing that is actually slightly challenging.

    I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

    To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  • jimdandy26jimdandy26 salem, ORPosts: 527Member
    Originally posted by Po_gg
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    You should feel bad for misrepresenting the game. Of those billions of combinations all of 100 are really viable, and of those maybe 15 are competitive. Whats more, there is no content in the game that actually challenges the gear you have due to how their stats cap.

    Not everyone's interested in competitve, best, elite, über mode...

    I, for example like to messing with the wheel, assemble interesting or funny decks and playing with them. Not viable? Sometimes :) Not competitve? Most of the times. But who cares? It's fun. Not to mention I rather help random pugs in normal with my scrappy but fun deck, than sitting in Agartha and listen to those elitist p***s spamming 18/18, etc :)

    Gimping yourself to artificially add challenge is not the hallmark of a decently designed system.

    I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

    To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  • OrtwigOrtwig Cambridge, MAPosts: 1,159Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    You should feel bad for misrepresenting the game. Of those billions of combinations all of 100 are really viable, and of those maybe 15 are competitive. Whats more, there is no content in the game that actually challenges the gear you have due to how their stats cap.

    Don't feel bad about a thing.  Yes, I know not all those combinations are viable, but I also know not every build has been found, as much as people like to preach that (we lack imagination, really).  What happens if a new boss is created that specifically trashes those "competitive" combinations?  Guess you'll have to adapt...  You're basing those 15 on what you've seen, not what is possible.

    Same thing happens in PvP.  Everytime the "one true build" comes along, another is made to trounce it.

    And I'm completely fine without a gear challenge.  I want a deck challenge.

    You mean the deck challenge they have yet to give us? I have all my master planner outfits. Deck wise figuring out each instance was not very challenging at all. 

    lol I just realized you are talking about the pre-made decks.  Have you ever created your own custom decks?  If you think the outfit decks are what make up the game you have missed pretty much everything about what makes TSW amazing.  Do you understand active/passive combos?  Just want to make sure I am not missing something.

    The outfit decks are pretty much just the training wheels to the game.  

    No, master planner. You know those achievements you get for completing each instance without changing abilities or talismans. You know that thing that is actually slightly challenging.

    Okay, whoops apologies for that...  I saw outfits and misread.

  • OrtwigOrtwig Cambridge, MAPosts: 1,159Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    You should feel bad for misrepresenting the game. Of those billions of combinations all of 100 are really viable, and of those maybe 15 are competitive. Whats more, there is no content in the game that actually challenges the gear you have due to how their stats cap.

    Don't feel bad about a thing.  Yes, I know not all those combinations are viable, but I also know not every build has been found, as much as people like to preach that (we lack imagination, really).  What happens if a new boss is created that specifically trashes those "competitive" combinations?  Guess you'll have to adapt...  You're basing those 15 on what you've seen, not what is possible.

    Same thing happens in PvP.  Everytime the "one true build" comes along, another is made to trounce it.

    And I'm completely fine without a gear challenge.  I want a deck challenge.

    You mean the deck challenge they have yet to give us? I have all my master planner outfits. Deck wise figuring out each instance was not very challenging at all. Running the parser to find out what stats to stack in what amounts took much more trial and error, but again that was due to the nonsensical stat system. Especially when the abilities themselves actually overwrite your stats! Promoting the game on what could be when they have shown no evidence of being able to deliver (especially on time) is foolish.

    The game system is better suited to being able to provide that challenge than any I've seen.  Ability wheel is closer to eliminating the gear grind than any I've seen.  In and of itself, that's huge.  You can piss and moan about release schedules (only 6 updates in 9 months -- wah!!), but we have something pretty awesome here.

    Except its not in the slightest. Abilities are roughly half how effective your build is, the other half being if you have the correct stats to be there. No matter how many abilities you have if you do not have a decent amount of pen and hit you will not beat Polaris for example. Besides part of your "pro" in the op is that "abilities will not go up in power, we will just get more of them" which is blatently false. Besides even looking at the wheel in its current state (where many abilities have wide variation of power levels) every other game that has attempted that has run into 2 problems. Either one, they copy a ton of abilities (like they have already done) or they introduce power creep and end up having to cycle abilities through (like all of the good/popular ccgs have done, you know that same process that the developers said ages ago the system was designed like).

    Well, the gear is the vertical part of the equation -- you need to have a certain gear level and stats to do a certain dungeon -- that's fine, and how it should be as you progress through the bulk of the game, with things getting progressively harder.  But once you've maxed everything, you've got a perfect system to grow horizontally -- creating challenges based on deck combinations.  You've already got the best gear, or the gear needed right?  The aux weapons for variety, perhaps unusual decks required for unusual mobs, and possibily some sort of Group wheel that must be coordinated.  So far, the balance in the deck abilities are pretty good -- only a bit of tweaking may be necessary.  Introduce some different gear that can help in certain situations.

    You are quite correct, the combat system has a TON of potential. Funcom however has no idea how to realize it though. I gave extensive feedback directly to the development team in closed beta and on the test server. I tested the raid with the dev. Every issue that are complained about I identified, and even offered different ways of fixing. They keep missing on key points because they do not know what they are doing. The raid is too complicated for a pug (without adequete tools I might add) but far too easy for any decently oragnized group. Lairs require far too much management for a pug (they get nothing out of it individually) and far too boring for an organized group. Most of the instance content does not even semi requre thinking thanks to how easy it is to just flatly overpower. You cannot mix and match parts of different levels of difficulty and expect things to go smoothly.

    I don't know if you can say that the same company that created a system that has a ton of potential is not the same company to realize it.  I'd think they understand it better than anyone, even you or me as armchair developers.  And honestly, who can know fully what outcome there can be without the full playerbase playing the content?  It's not something that can be tested -- they can ultimately only release it and learn.  I've thought more about how to work this combat system than most other games I've played, and finding the right deck mix for a particular dungeon or even mob out in the world is something you just don't see in other games.

    Now honestly, I get it. You love the game and are trying your damnedest to see it succeed and grow. Thats fine. No matter how big a turd anything is there is always a chunk of people who will love it. It is the way of human nature. Whats not ok is completely misrepresenting how awesome the extremely flawed, rather mediocre overall title is to get people to do that. In the end you are actually doing more harm than good.

    Actually not my reason at all, or maybe just a part of the reason.  I have a huge interest in game systems, and TSW is the game I have seen closest to realizing horizontal progression -- I've yet to see something skill based work well in the MMO space, and the leveling/gear focused grind is something I won't miss saying goodbye to.  And I think the discussion/debate is worthwhile and interesting.  I do like the game, would like to see more players, but I'm not going to worry too much about people if it's not their cup of tea.  Or whether you have given up on it or not.

     

  • Po_ggPo_gg Twigwarren, WestfarthingPosts: 2,729Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by Po_gg
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    You should feel bad for misrepresenting the game. Of those billions of combinations all of 100 are really viable, and of those maybe 15 are competitive. Whats more, there is no content in the game that actually challenges the gear you have due to how their stats cap.

    Not everyone's interested in competitve, best, elite, über mode...

    I, for example like to messing with the wheel, assemble interesting or funny decks and playing with them. Not viable? Sometimes :) Not competitve? Most of the times. But who cares? It's fun. Not to mention I rather help random pugs in normal with my scrappy but fun deck, than sitting in Agartha and listen to those elitist p***s spamming 18/18, etc :)

    Gimping yourself to artificially add challenge is not the hallmark of a decently designed system.

    I didn't ment it for the challenge, maybe I  wrote it wrong. I just hate gear grind, so I don't want to waste months just to increase the decimal number on my 10.x gear up one notch. Especially not if the only reward is e-peen and the same dungeons on very nightmare hard mode. (it's not only TSW, I refuse to grind gear in every mmo).

    So, wheel unlocked, best decks saved (though FC could fix the damn gear management...), what's left? Replay missions, roleplay, help lower buddies and pugs ... and goofing with the wheel. That's what I do nowadays :)

  • jimdandy26jimdandy26 salem, ORPosts: 527Member
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    You should feel bad for misrepresenting the game. Of those billions of combinations all of 100 are really viable, and of those maybe 15 are competitive. Whats more, there is no content in the game that actually challenges the gear you have due to how their stats cap.

    Don't feel bad about a thing.  Yes, I know not all those combinations are viable, but I also know not every build has been found, as much as people like to preach that (we lack imagination, really).  What happens if a new boss is created that specifically trashes those "competitive" combinations?  Guess you'll have to adapt...  You're basing those 15 on what you've seen, not what is possible.

    Same thing happens in PvP.  Everytime the "one true build" comes along, another is made to trounce it.

    And I'm completely fine without a gear challenge.  I want a deck challenge.

    You mean the deck challenge they have yet to give us? I have all my master planner outfits. Deck wise figuring out each instance was not very challenging at all. Running the parser to find out what stats to stack in what amounts took much more trial and error, but again that was due to the nonsensical stat system. Especially when the abilities themselves actually overwrite your stats! Promoting the game on what could be when they have shown no evidence of being able to deliver (especially on time) is foolish.

    The game system is better suited to being able to provide that challenge than any I've seen.  Ability wheel is closer to eliminating the gear grind than any I've seen.  In and of itself, that's huge.  You can piss and moan about release schedules (only 6 updates in 9 months -- wah!!), but we have something pretty awesome here.

    Except its not in the slightest. Abilities are roughly half how effective your build is, the other half being if you have the correct stats to be there. No matter how many abilities you have if you do not have a decent amount of pen and hit you will not beat Polaris for example. Besides part of your "pro" in the op is that "abilities will not go up in power, we will just get more of them" which is blatently false. Besides even looking at the wheel in its current state (where many abilities have wide variation of power levels) every other game that has attempted that has run into 2 problems. Either one, they copy a ton of abilities (like they have already done) or they introduce power creep and end up having to cycle abilities through (like all of the good/popular ccgs have done, you know that same process that the developers said ages ago the system was designed like).

    Well, the gear is the vertical part of the equation -- you need to have a certain gear level and stats to do a certain dungeon -- that's fine, and how it should be as you progress through the bulk of the game, with things getting progressively harder.  But once you've maxed everything, you've got a perfect system to grow horizontally -- creating challenges based on deck combinations.  You've already got the best gear, or the gear needed right?  The aux weapons for variety, perhaps unusual decks required for unusual mobs, and possibily some sort of Group wheel that must be coordinated.  So far, the balance in the deck abilities are pretty good -- only a bit of tweaking may be necessary.  Introduce some different gear that can help in certain situations.

    Except they are not. Abilities scale differing amounts based on stats. Many abilities are great at lower levels but are passed by similar abilities from other weapons as your gear gets better. Three Round Burst versus Blaze is a great example. Also, there is no really noticeable increase in difficulty, merely the need for higher stat caps. Many survival builds can go to much "higher" leveled areas at low item levels and complete content just fine (its why they changed how xp works shortly after launch, so you get less xp for completing stuff higher than you should, LOL) it merely takes more time to kill thanks to glance/evade/block. I also LOL at your suggestion that a supposed great system only has an awesome amount of potential when you add completely new mechanics to it.

    You are quite correct, the combat system has a TON of potential. Funcom however has no idea how to realize it though. I gave extensive feedback directly to the development team in closed beta and on the test server. I tested the raid with the dev. Every issue that are complained about I identified, and even offered different ways of fixing. They keep missing on key points because they do not know what they are doing. The raid is too complicated for a pug (without adequete tools I might add) but far too easy for any decently oragnized group. Lairs require far too much management for a pug (they get nothing out of it individually) and far too boring for an organized group. Most of the instance content does not even semi requre thinking thanks to how easy it is to just flatly overpower. You cannot mix and match parts of different levels of difficulty and expect things to go smoothly.

    I don't know if you can say that the same company that created a system that has a ton of potential is not the same company to realize it.  I'd think they understand it better than anyone, even you or me as armchair developers.  And honestly, who can know fully what outcome there can be without the full playerbase playing the content?  It's not something that can be tested -- they can ultimately only release it and learn.  I've thought more about how to work this combat system than most other games I've played.

    Merely creating something does not mean they fully understand it or how to utilize it. Einstein spent the rest of his life attempting to discredit string theory when it sprang fully formed from his own hypothisis. Besides, Funcom did not even create it. It was taken almost whole cloth from Magic The Gathering. I mean the entire system boils down to math plus rock/paper/scissors. There really are not any truly "synergystic" effects in the abilties themselves thanks to having very few actual scalers, and what scalers are there are generally additive rather than multiplicitive.

    Now honestly, I get it. You love the game and are trying your damnedest to see it succeed and grow. Thats fine. No matter how big a turd anything is there is always a chunk of people who will love it. It is the way of human nature. Whats not ok is completely misrepresenting how awesome the extremely flawed, rather mediocre overall title is to get people to do that. In the end you are actually doing more harm than good.

    Actually not my reason at all, or maybe just a part of the reason.  I have a huge interest in game systems, and TSW is the game I have seen closest to realizing horizontal progression -- I've yet to see something skill based work well in the MMO space, and the leveling/gear focused grind is something I won't miss saying goodbye to.  And I think the discussion/debate is worthwhile and interesting.  I do like the game, would like to see more players, but I'm not going to worry too much about people if it's not their cup of tea.  Or whether you have given up on it or not.

    Horizontal progression is a pipedream. The only thing it leads to is hybridization (as it has with TSW) which from a player standpoint does not actually gain you much unless its actively designed around, which Funcom has not done. Its the same mistake that Trion made with Rift when they nerfed its dungeons shortly after release by lowering the amount of damage mobs did so you did not have to bring support. More damage is always better. It drastically reduces the amount of healing required, and drops the chances of rng and/or mistakes from causing wipes. In TSW thanks to how stats scale you can get more healing than you ever needed and still bring significant dps as a healer, and similar with a tank, which makes encounters much easier than they should be. As someone who "studies combat systems" this flaw should be obvious to you. There is no reason to bring an off healer, or an offtank, when those roles are already covered thanks to stats. What good is having everyone in your group able to heal tank when you only ever need a single person to do it?

    In closed beta there was a time when different fights actually required an offtank, when you needed more than  a single person healing, and that was before they nerfed ar! They toned it all down to attempt to entice the masses. What we have left is a complete mess where you CAN do stuff, but there is no reason to. I stopped getting gear at 10.2 (10.4 weps) because there is no reason to get better. It scales poorly, and everything is more than completeable in that level.

     

    Originally posted by Po_gg
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by Po_gg
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    You should feel bad for misrepresenting the game. Of those billions of combinations all of 100 are really viable, and of those maybe 15 are competitive. Whats more, there is no content in the game that actually challenges the gear you have due to how their stats cap.

    Not everyone's interested in competitve, best, elite, über mode...

    I, for example like to messing with the wheel, assemble interesting or funny decks and playing with them. Not viable? Sometimes :) Not competitve? Most of the times. But who cares? It's fun. Not to mention I rather help random pugs in normal with my scrappy but fun deck, than sitting in Agartha and listen to those elitist p***s spamming 18/18, etc :)

    Gimping yourself to artificially add challenge is not the hallmark of a decently designed system.

    I didn't ment it for the challenge, maybe I  wrote it wrong. I just hate gear grind, so I don't want to waste months just to increase the decimal number on my 10.x gear up one notch. Especially not if the only reward is e-peen and the same dungeons on very nightmare hard mode. (it's not only TSW, I refuse to grind gear in every mmo).

    So, wheel unlocked, best decks saved (though FC could fix the damn gear management...), what's left? Replay missions, roleplay, help lower buddies and pugs ... and goofing with the wheel. That's what I do nowadays :)

    Sure. The first 20 times you do missions (the missions you like atleast) is fun. When you can complete them without even looking at your map or following markers there isn't anything left. The game has no carrot, and I am not going to sit and replay the same missions I have 50 times when there are so many other new games to play. Between the actual released games which no one ever has enough time to finish that are worth playing, and the large number of beta titles available it is simply not worth it.

     

    I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

    To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  • korent1991korent1991 CakovecPosts: 1,390Member
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    You should feel bad for misrepresenting the game. Of those billions of combinations all of 100 are really viable, and of those maybe 15 are competitive. Whats more, there is no content in the game that actually challenges the gear you have due to how their stats cap.

    Don't feel bad about a thing.  Yes, I know not all those combinations are viable, but I also know not every build has been found, as much as people like to preach that (we lack imagination, really).  What happens if a new boss is created that specifically trashes those "competitive" combinations?  Guess you'll have to adapt...  You're basing those 15 on what you've seen, not what is possible.

    Same thing happens in PvP.  Everytime the "one true build" comes along, another is made to trounce it.

    And I'm completely fine without a gear challenge.  I want a deck challenge.

    thank you dear messiah for enlighting us about features TSW MIGHT have in the future... Does it mean it will have them? No.

    Is it likely they'll make a boss with purpose of denying success just because you have a certain build? Probably not.

    You can theory craft all day long, it'll get you nowhere. 

    "Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
    -------------------------------

    image
  • OrtwigOrtwig Cambridge, MAPosts: 1,159Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by korent1991
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    You should feel bad for misrepresenting the game. Of those billions of combinations all of 100 are really viable, and of those maybe 15 are competitive. Whats more, there is no content in the game that actually challenges the gear you have due to how their stats cap.

    Don't feel bad about a thing.  Yes, I know not all those combinations are viable, but I also know not every build has been found, as much as people like to preach that (we lack imagination, really).  What happens if a new boss is created that specifically trashes those "competitive" combinations?  Guess you'll have to adapt...  You're basing those 15 on what you've seen, not what is possible.

    Same thing happens in PvP.  Everytime the "one true build" comes along, another is made to trounce it.

    And I'm completely fine without a gear challenge.  I want a deck challenge.

    thank you dear messiah for enlighting us about features TSW MIGHT have in the future... Does it mean it will have them? No.

    Is it likely they'll make a boss with purpose of denying success just because you have a certain build? Probably not.

    You can theory craft all day long, it'll get you nowhere. 

    Making no pretenses about messiahood, thanks.  ;)

    And you may be right -- they may not code a boss specifically to beat certain cookie-cutters, but they can certainly make ones that will force you to think on your feet, possibly change mid-stream, or have the team change roles.  There's nothing in the system as it stands today to prevent this.  And there's the normal and elite modes that can be an easier time.  It's the nightmare runners who want the challenge, why not do it?  And there is a sizable group who like/love the theorycrafting in TSW; I don't do it as much as others, but I DO like tweaking.  

    And who are we to predict what the devs will or won't do? 

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,223Member Uncommon

    I really like the game, but I don't see it as horizontal progression.  You earn more powerful skills as you move out toward the edge of the wheel.  There are gear tiers with the best gear locked behind group content.  That's pretty vertical in my world.

    I don't mind that because the entire focus of the game isn't on that progression.  In a very similar vein to GW2 the progression is there but not really the primary focus and you can be effective in most places without having BiS.

    The only disappointing thing about this game and GW2, for me, has been that what little progression they offer is still firmly locked behind contrived group content.  That has been done to death and veneering over it in either game doesn't really hide the very game design philosophies they're supposedly trying to break from.  Whatever you like to do in the game should offer a path to the nicest shinies.

  • OrtwigOrtwig Cambridge, MAPosts: 1,159Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    You should feel bad for misrepresenting the game. Of those billions of combinations all of 100 are really viable, and of those maybe 15 are competitive. Whats more, there is no content in the game that actually challenges the gear you have due to how their stats cap.

    Don't feel bad about a thing.  Yes, I know not all those combinations are viable, but I also know not every build has been found, as much as people like to preach that (we lack imagination, really).  What happens if a new boss is created that specifically trashes those "competitive" combinations?  Guess you'll have to adapt...  You're basing those 15 on what you've seen, not what is possible.

    Same thing happens in PvP.  Everytime the "one true build" comes along, another is made to trounce it.

    And I'm completely fine without a gear challenge.  I want a deck challenge.

    You mean the deck challenge they have yet to give us? I have all my master planner outfits. Deck wise figuring out each instance was not very challenging at all. Running the parser to find out what stats to stack in what amounts took much more trial and error, but again that was due to the nonsensical stat system. Especially when the abilities themselves actually overwrite your stats! Promoting the game on what could be when they have shown no evidence of being able to deliver (especially on time) is foolish.

    The game system is better suited to being able to provide that challenge than any I've seen.  Ability wheel is closer to eliminating the gear grind than any I've seen.  In and of itself, that's huge.  You can piss and moan about release schedules (only 6 updates in 9 months -- wah!!), but we have something pretty awesome here.

    Except its not in the slightest. Abilities are roughly half how effective your build is, the other half being if you have the correct stats to be there. No matter how many abilities you have if you do not have a decent amount of pen and hit you will not beat Polaris for example. Besides part of your "pro" in the op is that "abilities will not go up in power, we will just get more of them" which is blatently false. Besides even looking at the wheel in its current state (where many abilities have wide variation of power levels) every other game that has attempted that has run into 2 problems. Either one, they copy a ton of abilities (like they have already done) or they introduce power creep and end up having to cycle abilities through (like all of the good/popular ccgs have done, you know that same process that the developers said ages ago the system was designed like).

    Well, the gear is the vertical part of the equation -- you need to have a certain gear level and stats to do a certain dungeon -- that's fine, and how it should be as you progress through the bulk of the game, with things getting progressively harder.  But once you've maxed everything, you've got a perfect system to grow horizontally -- creating challenges based on deck combinations.  You've already got the best gear, or the gear needed right?  The aux weapons for variety, perhaps unusual decks required for unusual mobs, and possibily some sort of Group wheel that must be coordinated.  So far, the balance in the deck abilities are pretty good -- only a bit of tweaking may be necessary.  Introduce some different gear that can help in certain situations.

    Except they are not. Abilities scale differing amounts based on stats. Many abilities are great at lower levels but are passed by similar abilities from other weapons as your gear gets better. Three Round Burst versus Blaze is a great example. Also, there is no really noticeable increase in difficulty, merely the need for higher stat caps. Many survival builds can go to much "higher" leveled areas at low item levels and complete content just fine (its why they changed how xp works shortly after launch, so you get less xp for completing stuff higher than you should, LOL) it merely takes more time to kill thanks to glance/evade/block. I also LOL at your suggestion that a supposed great system only has an awesome amount of potential when you add completely new mechanics to it.

    Not talking about new mechanics, I'm talking about using the mechanics that are already there in different ways.  As the game grows, new challenges will need to be built in without the lazy fallback of gear grind.  You can extend the mechanic in new ways as well that will dovetail nicely with the existing system as well -- a Group Wheel is an interesting idea, but hey, it may take awhile, and the portential doesn't depend on it.  

    You are quite correct, the combat system has a TON of potential. Funcom however has no idea how to realize it though. I gave extensive feedback directly to the development team in closed beta and on the test server. I tested the raid with the dev. Every issue that are complained about I identified, and even offered different ways of fixing. They keep missing on key points because they do not know what they are doing. The raid is too complicated for a pug (without adequete tools I might add) but far too easy for any decently oragnized group. Lairs require far too much management for a pug (they get nothing out of it individually) and far too boring for an organized group. Most of the instance content does not even semi requre thinking thanks to how easy it is to just flatly overpower. You cannot mix and match parts of different levels of difficulty and expect things to go smoothly.

    I don't know if you can say that the same company that created a system that has a ton of potential is not the same company to realize it.  I'd think they understand it better than anyone, even you or me as armchair developers.  And honestly, who can know fully what outcome there can be without the full playerbase playing the content?  It's not something that can be tested -- they can ultimately only release it and learn.  I've thought more about how to work this combat system than most other games I've played.

    Merely creating something does not mean they fully understand it or how to utilize it. Einstein spent the rest of his life attempting to discredit string theory when it sprang fully formed from his own hypothisis. Besides, Funcom did not even create it. It was taken almost whole cloth from Magic The Gathering. I mean the entire system boils down to math plus rock/paper/scissors. There really are not any truly "synergystic" effects in the abilties themselves thanks to having very few actual scalers, and what scalers are there are generally additive rather than multiplicitive.

    Wow, Funcom and Einstein in the same paragraph -- that's a first!  ;).  The fact that PvP builds are changing constantly to counter new builds players create is a bit more interesting that rock/papers/scissors.  Just talking to someone the other night who was going to spring a new build as a surprise.  To me, having a system where no one build works at all times in all cases is a bit of genius -- I have to believe Funcom will USE it.

    Now honestly, I get it. You love the game and are trying your damnedest to see it succeed and grow. Thats fine. No matter how big a turd anything is there is always a chunk of people who will love it. It is the way of human nature. Whats not ok is completely misrepresenting how awesome the extremely flawed, rather mediocre overall title is to get people to do that. In the end you are actually doing more harm than good.

    Actually not my reason at all, or maybe just a part of the reason.  I have a huge interest in game systems, and TSW is the game I have seen closest to realizing horizontal progression -- I've yet to see something skill based work well in the MMO space, and the leveling/gear focused grind is something I won't miss saying goodbye to.  And I think the discussion/debate is worthwhile and interesting.  I do like the game, would like to see more players, but I'm not going to worry too much about people if it's not their cup of tea.  Or whether you have given up on it or not.

    Horizontal progression is a pipedream. The only thing it leads to is hybridization (as it has with TSW) which from a player standpoint does not actually gain you much unless its actively designed around, which Funcom has not done. Its the same mistake that Trion made with Rift when they nerfed its dungeons shortly after release by lowering the amount of damage mobs did so you did not have to bring support. More damage is always better. It drastically reduces the amount of healing required, and drops the chances of rng and/or mistakes from causing wipes. In TSW thanks to how stats scale you can get more healing than you ever needed and still bring significant dps as a healer, and similar with a tank, which makes encounters much easier than they should be. As someone who "studies combat systems" this flaw should be obvious to you. There is no reason to bring an off healer, or an offtank, when those roles are already covered thanks to stats. What good is having everyone in your group able to heal tank when you only ever need a single person to do it?

    Your turn to read more carefully -- I said I have an "interest in game systems;" I do not profess to be a mathmetician or the ultimate theorycrafter (or even the messiah as another poster jibed).  I just know that when a game is challenging me with a build I've been using for awhile, and then being forced figure out what I need to switch out, what I am doing wrong in my fight, that it's pretty damn cool. The game is not "hard" in the sense that all challenges can be overcome, it's "hard" in the sense that it forces me to think about what I am doing, how I am approaching the mob, whether I have missed a clue, or whether my build or team is doing what it needs to do for the situation.  I've got this giant pool of abilities -- 525 -- but what's the right mix?  THAT's where the horizontal progression is, and I don't think it's a pipedream. 

    In closed beta there was a time when different fights actually required an offtank, when you needed more than  a single person healing, and that was before they nerfed ar! They toned it all down to attempt to entice the masses. What we have left is a complete mess where you CAN do stuff, but there is no reason to. I stopped getting gear at 10.2 (10.4 weps) because there is no reason to get better. It scales poorly, and everything is more than completeable in that level.

    I do believe that's why the devs have stated they'd like to eliminate the gear progresion going forward and focus on the horizontal.  They have the tools; I'd like to believe they are serious.  People bash Funcom alot, but one thing they don't generally say is that Funcom doesn't have the balls to do new stuff and push the envelope.  Maybe execution isn't always perfect, but they do tend to go for different. 

     

  • MardukkMardukk Posts: 1,558Member Uncommon

    This thread reeks of people who refuse to make their own builds and just copy the 1337 builds.

     

    OP maybe more horizontal progression will be there in the future, hopefully.

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