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[Column] Elder Scrolls Online: Making AvA Thrive

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  • HorusraHorusra maryland, MDPosts: 2,581Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Artean
    Make it open world and an inherent part of the game. We don't need more games in games.

    Yeah..lets take a hugh IP and make it for the smallest group of players....image

  • jacktorsjacktors Port St Lucie, FLPosts: 158Member Uncommon

    Great article:  

    A good idea to stop the keep swapping would be to increase the realm (alliance) bonuses, the longer the keep (s) are held.  Not only does that help the pvp players, but it also benefits the pve community.  It can really help to create a better realm (alliance) pride amongst the pvp players and the pve players.  And by increase, i mean the more time an alliance holds a certain keep, more alliance bonuses or perks are added to the mix.  

    Some examples are: if your alliance holds Gold Keep, they receive 5% magicka damage. But if they continue to hold the Gold Keep, a new bonus of 5 %  Magicka pool increase.  

    If  your alliance holds Red keep, they receive 5 % physical damage increase. If they hold for the next time increment, they receive 5 % more experience per kill. 

    So each keep should have different incremental bonuses.  These are just random examples. 

     

  • BookahBookah Bar Harbor, MEPosts: 259Member

    A well though out article and  I hope the ESO dev's take these into considersation, I really, REALLY do! ( Im playing skyrim on my  second moinitor and as I write this, and Elder scroll's have been a big part of my gaming life since the begining.)

    I get excited for many games by my very soul NEED's ESO to succeed!

     

    Kudo's to Bill Murphy, he seems to be on a roll;  we've seen a lot of good content from him the last few weeks. Keep it up sir

     

    image
  • mythran7mythran7 Abbotsford, BCPosts: 57Member

     

    They could also learn from games that tired open world pvp and failed miserably. Like the game engine not being able to handle more than 10 characters on the screen without giving you 5 fps. (hello SWTOR!).  Other things that I think are important:

     

    - You can never have too many objectives. The more you spread out the Zerg the better the game will be. Have your final keep push if you must, but devs should focus their energy on making small groups the center of open world pvp. When your small group (5-10) can turn the tide by taking an objective or killing an important enemy then you know you got this feel right.  Heck even two or three players should be able to make a difference if they are smart enough. Lots of objectives, spread out, all working towards a larger objective.

     

    -  Rewards for owning territory and not taking territory should be your way  to solve the keep swapping problem.  Reward players for owning stuff.  For example, every player gets a tax from all keeps held, say once per three hours or something.  The more keeps you own, or the more objectives you own, the more rewards you get with coin and or special currency.  So taking or holding a keep rewards you the same.  However, holding a keep should be much easier to do against much larger forces. Thus holding a keep should always be the better option because it should give a substantial defense bonus. 

     

    - Kills should be their own reward. Killing a player puts them out of the fight. That's your reward. Your objective should then be easier to take, and as a consequence the gaining of that objective is your reward. This will prevent kill swapping and other nonsense.

     

    Just a few more ideas...

     

     

  • BookahBookah Bar Harbor, MEPosts: 259Member
    Originally posted by mythran7

     

    They could also learn from games that tired open world pvp and failed miserably. Like the game engine not being able to handle more than 10 characters on the screen without giving you 5 fps. (hello SWTOR!).  Other things that I think are important:

     

    - You can never have too many objectives. The more you spread out the Zerg the better the game will be. Have your final keep push if you must, but devs should focus their energy on making small groups the center of open world pvp. When your small group (5-10) can turn the tide by taking an objective or killing an important enemy then you know you got this feel right.  Heck even two or three players should be able to make a difference if they are smart enough. Lots of objectives, spread out, all working towards a larger objective.

     

    -  Rewards for owning territory and not taking territory should be your way  to solve the keep swapping problem.  Reward players for owning stuff.  For example, every player gets a tax from all keeps held, say once per three hours or something.  The more keeps you own, or the more objectives you own, the more rewards you get with coin and or special currency.  So taking or holding a keep rewards you the same.  However, holding a keep should be much easier to do against much larger forces. Thus holding a keep should always be the better option because it should give a substantial defense bonus. 

     

    - Kills should be their own reward. Killing a player puts them out of the fight. That's your reward. Your objective should then be easier to take, and as a consequence the gaining of that objective is your reward. This will prevent kill swapping and other nonsense.

     

    Just a few more ideas...

     

     

     

    Agreed.

    I have some concerns that the "Mega server" or whatever is going to end up a fancy name for repackaged GW-1 style instancing. ( While I didnt mind it in GW-1 many people couldnt stomach it as its not a true, open world or whatever.) I hope they take a long look  this issue, it could make or break this game imo.

     

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  • wolfhoundswolfhounds Sometown, PAPosts: 14Member
    Originally posted by bobm111

    its just not true what Bill is implying here. What we really have are a few devs pushing back to the good old DAOC days. And it is a pipe dream.

    In fact there are 100 to 1 people who play mmos not for pvp and especially not for DAOC type pvp but instead for good old open world exploration and questing as well as missioning. This includes housing.

    Just because a few devs are trying to bring back realm vs realm pvp as the only real way. It is not going to happen other then a little nisch of dedicated people who have a pipedream that this is the future.

    In reality they are doomed to fail and die.

    Sorry if i dissappoint your pipe dreams.

    And once again ffxiv will shine compared to these DAOC clones in moderen dressing. And making the morrowwind world into a DAOC clone is gonna fail big time of all because the people who actually want to play the came (that is the overwhelming majority) would prefer and open endless seamless world to explore craft etc.

    Bobm111

    Opinions: everybody has them, and they aren't facts.  So get off your high-horse and the idea that you're ruining 'pipe dreams'

     

    There are plenty of PvE games out there.  In fact, the majority of games are PvE.  And look no further than WoW for the type of game you are apparently in favor of.

     

    However, for me and many other, 3 realm pvp would be awesome.  The best game I ever played, by far, was DAoC.  Rogues climbing keeps was awesome.  And having pvp battles actually mean something to the rest of the realm ala Darkness Falls was one of the best features any game has ever implemented.  In my opinion.

     
     
     
  • AlakorAlakor La LagunaPosts: 42Member Uncommon

    This columnist really has no diea what hes talking about sadly.

     

    5.) Races and Factions Should Have AvA Strengths

    And lastly, this one is sort of supplementary to the others, but each race and faction should have things they’re good at in the ever ongoing battle of rock, paper, scissors.  For example, let’s say Orcs are good at a certain type of siege equipment. Maybe Elves are good at sneaking behind enemy lines, while Britons excel at magical wards around encampments.  Elder Scrolls already has a strong sense of making racial choice matter in character development, and that should carry through to AvA.

     

     

    This is the worst and most terrible idea ever heard in human written history. Thuis breaks balance and makes game not good in a single feature, stuff like racials is BAD BAD they should be at most cosmetic, making thema  whole balancing deal for pvp is bad.

  • fuzzylogic11fuzzylogic11 Westminster, COPosts: 56Member
    Originally posted by Alakor

    This columnist really has no diea what hes talking about sadly.

     

    5.) Races and Factions Should Have AvA Strengths

    And lastly, this one is sort of supplementary to the others, but each race and faction should have things they’re good at in the ever ongoing battle of rock, paper, scissors.  For example, let’s say Orcs are good at a certain type of siege equipment. Maybe Elves are good at sneaking behind enemy lines, while Britons excel at magical wards around encampments.  Elder Scrolls already has a strong sense of making racial choice matter in character development, and that should carry through to AvA.

     

     

    This is the worst and most terrible idea ever heard in human written history. Thuis breaks balance and makes game not good in a single feature, stuff like racials is BAD BAD they should be at most cosmetic, making thema  whole balancing deal for pvp is bad.

     

    I have to disagree with you on this one. I believe that having racial differences is something that should make a comeback. They should be meaningful and are very much in line with Elder Scroll lore. In Skyrim, I loved playing an Argonian and breathing underwater. Things like this add a little unexpected variety to the race/class combinations and can have some amazing results.

  • Dimsum1337Dimsum1337 MoscowPosts: 60Member

    "Now, with the success of Guild Wars 2 and its own take on three-faction warfare"

    I just had to lol for the three-faction warfare called out in GW2. Total joke!

    I did on the other hand enjoy the references to Warhammer as someone who didnt get on DaoC train in time. If the game is  designed with true RvR in mind there is no problem. Sadly, I expect the transition from single player RPG to MMOPVPRPG to be a painful one. I hope that I am wrong!!!! I would imagine for me personally Skyrim ala RvR with three weak sauce factions rushed to release to be a painful experience, one from which I shall never again recover lol...

  • nate1980nate1980 Evans, GAPosts: 1,829Member

    I have absolutely no faith in todays community. I played DAoC during its prime and then sometime after. I didn't need any more reasons to defend my homeland, other than realm pride, and I wasn't even a real PvPer. The xp for taking a tower, and especially a keep was really good. It was also hard to take towers and keeps, since the other side would ardently defend them. 

    Needless to say, I don't have a list of things ESO will need to have good RvR. I think the problem lies with the community. They're lazy and will always take the path of least resistance, including changing realms to be on the stronger side. If you can flip the keeps, they'll do so. GW2's recent example shows this. 

    My only hope is with the subset of people within the community of each game that I normally gravitate towards. That's the older MMORPG crowd that's been around well before WoW came out and have a different perspective on gaming than the mainstream audience.

    Of course, that's all assuming ESO will be a good game. I personally don't plan on buying it, since it bastardized the TES name.

  • SenjinnSenjinn Depere, WIPosts: 187Member Uncommon

    4) There should be aleast a slight advantage to defending a keep. GW2 is a prime example of how not to do things. It's is easier to AE from outside a keep than from inside due to line of sight issues and people can be pulled down from walls but not up. People stopped defending because it puts you at great disadvantage in that game.

     

    The biggest thing for me will be stealth and run speed. There need to be sufficient counters for these. Being able to choose their fights and flee whenever you want makes for great imbalance. Also it makes people flock to a class that has this advantage. These things tend not to get fixed either because although 1/2 your players are trying to tell you it's imbalanced , the other 1/2 are playing these classes and dont want to lose there advantage , so they tell you everything is fine.

     

    DaoC probably had the best balance for this and still I wouldn't say it was very good, stealth and run speed characters were still the most popular. I'd rather games just didn't have these 2 things.

  • UlorikUlorik TorrancePosts: 172Member Uncommon

    Could we add please:

     

    6. Strategy

     

    I loved DaoC and had high hopes for WAR (both games with a mix of PvE and a hefty portion of RvR), but what most annoyed me was the lack of gameplay requiring something like "longer term strategy". First of all, the game did not require the players to think about meaningful deployment of their troops, you portalled from map to map if there was a hot spot, back and forth, rinse repeat and it gets boring very quickly. I would wish for a system where a realm could deploy their troops in strategic ways, i.e. getting a zerg to a certain spot in the battlefield, moving with their Sieg to an objective, having a bunch of stealthers attacking an important target and if the other realms do not foresee this move and move relevant units against it, then tough luck and good on you for the realm that thinks strategically. So a gamemechanic that prevents players portalling all over the battlefields in a flash and slows down movement of units would be my first request.

     

    Also, what got boring in WAR extremely quickly was when the big price of capturing the enemy capital was made completely trivial by removing the forward Fortresses. Hey it even came to the point that both realms took turns to capture the other city once, twice, even thrice a day..yawn. So my second request would be to have a big price as the target of RvR, such as becoming Emperor, capturing the capital , but that this would only be achieveable after continued excelence in strategic planning on the side of the winning realm over several days or weeks even.

     

     

    ..and yes, geez DF  !!

     
     
  • 1vald21vald2 StuttgartPosts: 75Member
    BTW you wrote "Britons" in 5.). It's "Bretons". :)

    image

  • JacobinJacobin Toronto, ONPosts: 697Member Uncommon

    3 Factions largely prevents keep trading since if 2 are swapping the 3rd will take eveything

     

  • GreenWidowGreenWidow little rock, ARPosts: 157Member
    Originally posted by bobm111

    its just not true what Bill is implying here. What we really have are a few devs pushing back to the good old DAOC days. And it is a pipe dream.

    In fact there are 100 to 1 people who play mmos not for pvp and especially not for DAOC type pvp but instead for good old open world exploration and questing as well as missioning. This includes housing.

    Just because a few devs are trying to bring back realm vs realm pvp as the only real way. It is not going to happen other then a little nisch of dedicated people who have a pipedream that this is the future.

    In reality they are doomed to fail and die.

    Sorry if i dissappoint your pipe dreams.

    And once again ffxiv will shine compared to these DAOC clones in moderen dressing. And making the morrowwind world into a DAOC clone is gonna fail big time of all because the people who actually want to play the came (that is the overwhelming majority) would prefer and open endless seamless world to explore craft etc.

    Bobm111

    Everything Bob just said here is truth.

    The VAST overwhelming majority of people that want to play this game have no desire to pvp in any way whatsoever and are frankly considering avoiding the game because of the travesty it is becoming under the moronic leadership of a group of hasbeens that want to bring back a game that died from lack of interest.

    Putting the same pvp crap in a new pretty package isn't going to solve anything.  It's going to ruin another really great IP that needed fully open world exploration and adventure with no limitations on race etc.

    THAT is what made TES such a successful IP and THAT has been utterly ignored by these dumbass dev's.

    Fanbois of pvp can blather all they want but the 100 or so people who care about pvp in this world wont pay the bills.   It's the million or so that don't give a shit about pvp they need to be aiming the game towards.

    “Never violate a woman, nor harm a child. Do not lie, cheat or steal. These things are for lesser men. Protect the weak against the evil strong. And never allow thoughts of gain to lead you into the pursuit of evil. Never back away from an enemy. Either fight or surrender. It is not enough to say I will not be evil. Evil must be fought wherever it is found.”The Iron Code"

  • RelGnRelGn halalaPosts: 494Member
    seamless open world pvp and not the current crap they are trying to pull out

    image
  • jbombardjbombard SapporoPosts: 531Member Uncommon

    Agreed.  PvP is a nice extra, but Elder Scrolls was never a PvP game, and the Elder Scroll fans are fans of what made the Elder Scrolls series different.  That being exploration, freedom, crafting, the skill system etc...  You may have a different favorite feature in past Elder Scrolls games, but one thing that I can guarantee is that it wasn't PvP because PvP was never a part of the game.

     

    So I hope they do PvP in a fun and compelling way, but if they start make decisions that hurt the traditional ES PvE features people love in favor of PvP then they may find themselves losing a large chunk of would be customers.

  • CthulhuPuffsCthulhuPuffs Henderson, NVPosts: 363Member Common
    Originally posted by GreenWidow
    Originally posted by bobm111
     

    Everything Bob just said here is truth.

    The VAST overwhelming majority of people that want to play this game have no desire to pvp in any way whatsoever and are frankly considering avoiding the game because of the travesty it is becoming under the moronic leadership of a group of hasbeens that want to bring back a game that died from lack of interest.

    Putting the same pvp crap in a new pretty package isn't going to solve anything.  It's going to ruin another really great IP that needed fully open world exploration and adventure with no limitations on race etc.

    THAT is what made TES such a successful IP and THAT has been utterly ignored by these dumbass dev's.

    Fanbois of pvp can blather all they want but the 100 or so people who care about pvp in this world wont pay the bills.   It's the million or so that don't give a shit about pvp they need to be aiming the game towards.

    I agree. They could have accomplished that by keeping PvP to Cyrodiil and opening up the rest of the world to PvE to all races regardless of faction.

    Unfortunately the Devs at Zenimax ( an a bunch of DAOC fans) are stuck with the dated DAOC segregated world and for some reason cant think beyond that.

    Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.

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  • znaiikaznaiika denver, PAPosts: 203Member
    Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs
    I agree. They could have accomplished that by keeping PvP to Cyrodiil and opening up the rest of the world to PvE to all races regardless of faction.

    Unfortunately the Devs at Zenimax ( an a bunch of DAOC fans) are stuck with the dated DAOC segregated world and for some reason cant think beyond that.

    Looks like I am going to sit this one out, if it is pvp oriented mostly.

  • BaleoutBaleout Grande Prairie, ABPosts: 141Member
    Originally posted by znaiika
    Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs
    I agree. They could have accomplished that by keeping PvP to Cyrodiil and opening up the rest of the world to PvE to all races regardless of faction.

    Unfortunately the Devs at Zenimax ( an a bunch of DAOC fans) are stuck with the dated DAOC segregated world and for some reason cant think beyond that.

    Looks like I am going to sit this one out, if it is pvp oriented mostly.

    Yup looks like i am going to be with you on this one, but you just never know till it comes out.

  • ArChWindArChWind Some Place, WIPosts: 619Member Uncommon

    Thing that bothers me is that in all TES games through Skyrim there was no lock out for any race so now this is the first of this series that has a locked race. Why?

    Secondly in all this development time there has never been a real push for PvP until game x and game y are successful therefore we need to draw in that crowd too.

    Lastly the TES series was never that great if it was not for the Mod communities so now where is this sandbox I use to call TES?

    Has it turned into another money grab?

    They’re shooting themselves in the knee.

  • SirBalinSirBalin Joppa, MDPosts: 1,150Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Horusra

    2) so PvE people have to PvP or does it open for PvE people if the PvP people open it?

    5) Whiners will come out of the wood work..R, P, S in gaming world seems to just create a world of internet tears.

    New study was just completed and apparently pvers are no longer considored people...they are a form of bear.  Pvpers rule the world...

    Incognito
    www.incognito-gaming.us
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  • ShadanwolfShadanwolf Posts: 2,114Member Uncommon

    One of the critical flaws in GW2  WvW is the micro size maps and the ability to move rapidly from one part of the map to another...facilitating the zerg...and the incessant  near insta taking and then retaking of keeps.Large distances expose the weaknesses of the zerg......and the large number of unprotected keeps when all players on one side are concentrated in a small area.

    Of course not having GW2's  WvW 2 week 24/7 point system will be a big plus for ESOL.Aas well as not resetting the battle field every two week will make the faction struggle far more meaningful.

     

  • hidrohidro Dieppe, NBPosts: 50Member Uncommon

    You know.. as a long time fan.. I was hoping that the online version or even MULTIPLAYER version of Elders Scroll would be something fantastic.

    You know.. that feeling you get.. when you're all up in your first person view, seeing the world through your characters eyes... living his adventures.. And then they tell you that the game is not going to be "TRUE FIRST PERSON".

    Honestly... I'ma let you finish Zenimax... but how about you folks go try the game Chivalry, it's on steam.. for 25$..

    Come back to me after you play that game and tell me that it's impossible for you to add this feature.

     

    Console Esports?
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  • RukushinRukushin Jackson, NJPosts: 82Member Common
    Originally posted by Baleout
    Originally posted by znaiika
    Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs
    I agree. They could have accomplished that by keeping PvP to Cyrodiil and opening up the rest of the world to PvE to all races regardless of faction.

    Unfortunately the Devs at Zenimax ( an a bunch of DAOC fans) are stuck with the dated DAOC segregated world and for some reason cant think beyond that.

    Looks like I am going to sit this one out, if it is pvp oriented mostly.

    Yup looks like i am going to be with you on this one, but you just never know till it comes out.

    Yea, not too happy with all the focus on PvP. Seemless world and being a breton but visiting skyrim and morrowind was my #1 goal with this game. Total freedom to wear the armor i want and go where i want. I'm still hopeful but honestly I'm tired of all the PvP announcements. Giving this until about June to start hearing PvE focused anouncements and a general shift in the direction these devs are going or its going to be kicked off my prospective shelf in favor for Arche Age or the infamous Project "Titan".

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