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On a scale of WOW to EVE how serious do we want it?

TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless ColumnistM, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon

I didn't say hardcore because that is not my intention. When I say serious I mean things like if we don't eat every few hours we lose stats, and if we don't go to "sleep" when we log off were tired when we log back on, and...WHEN WE DIE WE LOSE XP! (ok kidding on that one, that is simply a /rage quit point and insane for a RVR game)

So how serious (forget what MJ has said I'm talking your personal CU vision here) do you want CU compared to other games that either do not have consequences, or have major consequences. WOW or SWTOR for ex. being the 0 consequences games and EVE or UO for ex. being the everything has consequences game.

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Comments

  • SatariousSatarious Kansas City, MOPosts: 1,075Member
    Originally posted by Xobdnas

    I didn't say hardcore because that is not my intention. When I say serious I mean things like if we don't eat every few hours we lose stats, and if we don't go to "sleep" when we log off were tired when we log back on, and...WHEN WE DIE WE LOSE XP! (ok kidding on that one, that is simply a /rage quit point and insane for a RVR game)

    So how serious (forget what MJ has said I'm talking your personal CU vision here) do you want CU compared to other games that either do not have consequences, or have major consequences. WOW or SWTOR for ex. being the 0 consequences games and EVE or UO for ex. being the everything has consequences game.

    I want the consequences.  It's precisely because of lack of consequences that Free-For-All PvP games/servers fail.

  • meddyckmeddyck Athens, GAPosts: 1,140Member Uncommon
    None of that is important to me and might actually make me like the game less. Basically all I want is a new game that does RvR right: 3 realms, individual character progression, the same enemies from week to week and you can see their names and learn to hate or mock them, different races and classes in each realm, rewards promote fighting other players not fighting empty buildings to complete dailies, etc.

    Camelot Unchained Backer
    DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  • gigatgigat Minneapolis, MNPosts: 604Member Uncommon

    I personally feel losing XP on death is an excellent system.  FFXI did it really well.  It truly made those "Oh shit!" moments even more rewarding when you narrowly escaped death.

    Then again, FFXI was my first MMORPG, so I tend to favor these kinds of mechanics.

    "Lose the helmet sis, we can't prove that you're retarded." - Dennis Reynolds

  • Plastic-MetalPlastic-Metal Highland Heights, KYPosts: 405Member

    I enjoyed experience loss in DAoC because it forced you to critically think about what you were doing.  I don't think it would work in Camelot Unchained because it's a RvR based game that would lead an individual to believe that lots of death could occur if your side is out numbered by a vast amount for whatever reason..  but it would be an awesome feature.  It would prevent single heroes from running directly in the middle of a zerg and complain that they didn't receive healing.

    I want hard death /releases; I don't want to run back to my corpse as a corpse - Mark Jacobs has already confirmed this feature.

    Again, it's hard to guage since we don't know the scope of all the mechanics in the game.. but I'd say DAoC plus a tad bit more.

    My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

    image

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,453Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by gigat

    I personally feel losing XP on death is an excellent system.  FFXI did it really well.  It truly made those "Oh shit!" moments even more rewarding when you narrowly escaped death.

    Then again, FFXI was my first MMORPG, so I tend to favor these kinds of mechanics.

    I agree I liked it in Lineage 2.

     

     

  • dynamicipftwdynamicipftw Arrow, ALPosts: 207Member

    As serious as daoc was. No more no less.

     

    consequences when you die: 

    your deathspam broadcasted in the whole region.

    having to rebuff + run back to the action.

    your enemies become stronger.

    No exp loss on pvp deaths.

    No hunger / thirst.

    Keep it simple.

  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member
    Originally posted by gigat

    I personally feel losing XP on death is an excellent system.  FFXI did it really well.  It truly made those "Oh shit!" moments even more rewarding when you narrowly escaped death.

    Then again, FFXI was my first MMORPG, so I tend to favor these kinds of mechanics.

    Problem with exp. loss in PvP games is that sometimes you cannot escape death no matter what you do due to ganking. So in that light I think exp loss is for PvE games only because its always the players who is in control when doing PvE, not so when doing PvP.

    However death need to have some meaning, even in PvP, and one way to do that is to give you downtime, temporary stat loss, equipment damage etc.

  • MaxJacMaxJac Another Dimension, CAPosts: 185Member

    The impact should not be fixed! If you have played a Minecraft private server setup for RPG play then you will know what I mean when I say it does what CU should do. Sometimes killing a player means you get some resources and sometimes it means you get nothing. I think items that help in seiging should be dropped upon a players death as well as the resources needed to make said seige equipment, assuming they put more thought into it then just paying gold for them. I don't think gear should be dropped because chances are gear won't be easy to acquire. I would settle for players dropping what is important in that timeframe. Basically you can lose the means to win a days war, not a months work.

     

    EDIT: For clarities sake, I mean the items dropped would be ones the dying player actually had on them. This means you would need to keep a closey eye on the group that is attempting to bring the seige equipment, as if they die then it could give the enemy the means to destroy you.

  • alexisevicalexisevic Rochester, NYPosts: 41Member
    Exp loss for PvE activity is fine, and thats the way it was in DAoC.  Seeing that CU will have no PvE, exp loss is a no go. 
  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,474Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by gigat

    I personally feel losing XP on death is an excellent system.  FFXI did it really well.  It truly made those "Oh shit!" moments even more rewarding when you narrowly escaped death.

    Then again, FFXI was my first MMORPG, so I tend to favor these kinds of mechanics.

    I agree I liked it in Lineage 2.

     

     

     I personally would like this as well.  Do you think the player base could handle it? 

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,772Member Uncommon

    while im a PVE gamer im still intrigued by this game, and i am still building some interest in this PvP game after all the interviews and reading all info. I think as a PvP focused game if theres next to no risk the game will suffer greatly, it will be just another pvp game.

    On a scale of WoW to EVE i would like to see a Dark souls PvP level of risk and consequences. You kill a player, you take his exp and maybe some cash and even some crafting resources (not items or gear). That could work if the game is NOT gear based but player-skill based.

    image
  • Corinthian-XCorinthian-X Horn Lake, MSPosts: 86Member
    Originally posted by dynamicipftw

    As serious as daoc was. No more no less.

     

    consequences when you die: 

    your deathspam broadcasted in the whole region.

    having to rebuff + run back to the action.

    your enemies become stronger.

    No exp loss on pvp deaths.

    No hunger / thirst.

    Keep it simple.

    +1

  • StilerStiler Athens, TNPosts: 599Member

    There must be consequences to dying in RVR, less it become less meaningful and takes away the suspense of dying.

     

    EQuipment should be more damaged then just regular ues, etc. I'd even go as far to say equipment loss/looting, but I come from UO with it's pvp so that's where my opinion comes from.

     

    EXP loss I feel is more of a negative then what it adds to it, which can be added to the game in other ways.

  • grimgryphongrimgryphon Pacific Northwest, WAPosts: 682Member

    Your scale is too subjective.

    For some, EVE is the 1 and WoW the 10.

    For others, the opposite.

    Try using numbers next time.

     

    BTW, I have no interest in CU, so on MY scale, that would be EVE.

    Optional PvP = No PvP
  • KvalandurKvalandur Shreveport, LAPosts: 31Member

    Being as CU's being billed as a game that doesn't hold the players hand and walk them through the game. I would like to see a rollback to older age designs where you sought to avoid death because of the penalty, along with whatever else sort of iten loss, decay they implement. There are plenty of theme park games out now for those who can't deal with paying for your actions. I'm not stuck on it, but a food/drink hunger system would add cooking and the whole gamut to the market helping to bolster the economy. 

     

     Instead of "No place like home", we've got to keep repeating "Not a Wow clone", "Not a Wow clone".

  • HokibukisaHokibukisa Midland, GAPosts: 185Member
    Originally posted by Xobdnas

    I didn't say hardcore because that is not my intention. When I say serious I mean things like if we don't eat every few hours we lose stats, and if we don't go to "sleep" when we log off were tired when we log back on, and...WHEN WE DIE WE LOSE XP! (ok kidding on that one, that is simply a /rage quit point and insane for a RVR game)

    So how serious (forget what MJ has said I'm talking your personal CU vision here) do you want CU compared to other games that either do not have consequences, or have major consequences. WOW or SWTOR for ex. being the 0 consequences games and EVE or UO for ex. being the everything has consequences game.

    Eve tech 1 cruisers and modules and small pos, and what I mean by that is the amount of resources aka collection/pve required keep your armor up to scratch and pos built and fueled.

     

    For those not in the know, that means that when your frontier gets burnt to the ground, you have a little bit of work to do in order to set it back up, but nothing obsessive.

    image

  • MaephistoMaephisto somewhere, DCPosts: 632Member
    Originally posted by fiftyplusgeek

    Your scale is too subjective.

    For some, EVE is the 1 and WoW the 10.

    For others, the opposite.

    Try using numbers next time.

     

    BTW, I have no interest in CU, so on MY scale, that would be EVE.

    You may be correct.  Identifying which is 1 and which is 10 would be clearer.  However, the opinion of any person who believed WoW was the top of this scale isn't worth much.

    ---------------

    To answer the OP.  Eve is a bit to complex.  Complex to a point where few get to enjoy its depth.  So long as there is a high skill cieling for most classes.....I would be happy.  I liked the idea that all three sides have different skill/classes like daoc.  I want to have to spend considerable amount of time learning the classes and following the meta.  Yet, still be accessible to those who cannot comit to that as well.

    If I had to give a number......it would be 6.5, maybe 7.

    image

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Xobdnas

    I didn't say hardcore because that is not my intention. When I say serious I mean things like if we don't eat every few hours we lose stats, and if we don't go to "sleep" when we log off were tired when we log back on, and...WHEN WE DIE WE LOSE XP! (ok kidding on that one, that is simply a /rage quit point and insane for a RVR game)

    So how serious (forget what MJ has said I'm talking your personal CU vision here) do you want CU compared to other games that either do not have consequences, or have major consequences. WOW or SWTOR for ex. being the 0 consequences games and EVE or UO for ex. being the everything has consequences game.

    Vanilla WoW but with a different system to handle the Dishonor system. I didn't like that's but it made sense. 

    image

  • grimgryphongrimgryphon Pacific Northwest, WAPosts: 682Member
    Originally posted by Maephisto.

    You may be correct.  Identifying which is 1 and which is 10 would be clearer.  However, the opinion of any person who believed WoW was the top of this scale isn't worth much.

    I'm sure there are quite a few people who would place WoW over EVE. Their opinions don't matter? Yours is more valuable because?

    i can't wait to hear your answer.

    Optional PvP = No PvP
  • RoguewizRoguewiz Lampasas, TXPosts: 614Member Uncommon

    Death penalties are a thing that can make or break a game for some people.  I have friends that won't play "XP loss" games, and I have some that won't play "oh, you died" games.

    That idea is that in most XP loss games, you hit with some other penalty, like running back to a corpse or having to break back into an area.  That in of itself is a penalty of sorts.  Also, at least from the standpoint I'm approaching it; XP loss means you can lose a level you just got or HOUR spent getting that XP can be lost.  XP loss can be really harsh (Everquest as an example was rather harsh, particularly at certain levels...45, 49, 59 etc.).  Normally though, XP penalties are set amounts at certain levels.  Fortunately, in Everquest to continue my example, you were able to gain back a portion (not all) of your XP with a ressurection from a healer or Paladin.

    However, "oh I died" penalities typically have another penaltly.  Generally, this is in the form of a corpse recovery and/or a monetary loss for repairs.  This penalty gets progressivley more expensive, normally, as you gain levels and acquire higher level or quality gear.

    Personally, I don't really like either.  XP loss is too harsh, and "oh I died" isn't harsh enough.  I like the concept of XP Debt.  XP debt means you have to pay back a small portion of XP before you can start progressing again.  It won't allow you to delevel, but of course it won't allow you to level until you pay it back.  It doesn't have to be harsh.  It just needs to be enough to make the player think about his or her actions.

    All this is for PvE.  For PvP, there shouldn't be a "penalty" like this.

    Raquelis in various games
    Played: Everything
    Playing: League of Legends, EQ1 (Ragefire Lockjaw), Dark Souls II, Hearthstone
    Wants: The World
    Anticipating: Everquest Next Crowfall!!!

    Tank - Healer - Support: The REAL Trinity
  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    You should have to phone your friends in the middle of the night to log in and recover your corpse from a particularly difficult place. Failure to do so in time, and all of your gear gets collected by the Janitor (all of it, there's no such thing as a "locker" yet).

    Incidentally, while I am in fact describing real events, I am not serious in proposing a return to death mechanics circa 1988. They're well dead and buried.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,453Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by gigat

    I personally feel losing XP on death is an excellent system.  FFXI did it really well.  It truly made those "Oh shit!" moments even more rewarding when you narrowly escaped death.

    Then again, FFXI was my first MMORPG, so I tend to favor these kinds of mechanics.

    I agree I liked it in Lineage 2.

     

     

     I personally would like this as well.  Do you think the player base could handle it? 

    I think a segment of the playerbase could handle it. You would bascially be making a game knowing that it was a niche game. This isn't a bad thing if done "right". EVE is a niche game and can run successfully and just hit 500k subs (according to them).

    As far as Yamota's suggestion that death should have something like stat loss or a debuff or equipment damage, I would say that equipment damage is probably the better of those things.

    Debuffs and stat loss will just keep someone from playing. They might even just park their character and come back in 10 minutes or just log out.

    death penalties need to be felt but they shouldn't stop players from getting right back into the fight. Then again, one person's penalty is another person's "yawn".

    I honestly don't know what the best answer is.

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,474Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by Xobdnas

    I didn't say hardcore because that is not my intention. When I say serious I mean things like if we don't eat every few hours we lose stats, and if we don't go to "sleep" when we log off were tired when we log back on, and...WHEN WE DIE WE LOSE XP! (ok kidding on that one, that is simply a /rage quit point and insane for a RVR game)

    So how serious (forget what MJ has said I'm talking your personal CU vision here) do you want CU compared to other games that either do not have consequences, or have major consequences. WOW or SWTOR for ex. being the 0 consequences games and EVE or UO for ex. being the everything has consequences game.

    Vanilla WoW but with a different system to handle the Dishonor system. I didn't like that's but it made sense. 

     What would you like the as a dishonor system?

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,474Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by gigat

    I personally feel losing XP on death is an excellent system.  FFXI did it really well.  It truly made those "Oh shit!" moments even more rewarding when you narrowly escaped death.

    Then again, FFXI was my first MMORPG, so I tend to favor these kinds of mechanics.

    I agree I liked it in Lineage 2.

     

     

     I personally would like this as well.  Do you think the player base could handle it? 

    I think a segment of the playerbase could handle it. You would bascially be making a game knowing that it was a niche game. This isn't a bad thing if done "right". EVE is a niche game and can run successfully and just hit 500k subs (according to them).

    As far as Yamota's suggestion that death should have something like stat loss or a debuff or equipment damage, I would say that equipment damage is probably the better of those things.

    Debuffs and stat loss will just keep someone from playing. They might even just park their character and come back in 10 minutes or just log out.

    death penalties need to be felt but they shouldn't stop players from getting right back into the fight. Then again, one person's penalty is another person's "yawn".

    I honestly don't know what the best answer is.

     Then again, Mark did say they are not looking to make everyone happy so it might be included. 

    What if you get some kind of buffs that build up over time in RVR.  Not stat/combat/move buffs, but buffs to RVR stats*.  The more damage/healing you have done and keeps you have taken the number/types of buffs increase.  Kind of a proactive buffing but it doesn't cause you do to more damage.   Players sitting around leeching would'nt get those buffs unless they are actively RVRing.

    When you die, you lose all those buffs.  They key to the buffs is that they don't make you more powerful in combat.

     

    RVR stats:  could be points towards your side winning, earning temp seige equipment, glory/fame.  As many different stats as you could imagine to make the system interesting.

    I would have to think about this more.

  • sweetdigssweetdigs Washington, DCPosts: 196Member

    I will never complain about a game being too serious/consequence-based.  I just tend to be a guy that really enjoys challenge and pain, I guess.  So plant me on that side of the balance.  Probably why I enjoyed early EQ so much and why I love Eve today.  I think a lot of people look at it the wrong way and get too attached to things.  The thing that's great about Eve is it has a very strong player crafting community that mines asteroids and then builds everything from those resources.  If you don't have loss (and yes, you lose a lot of ships in Eve), then you can't have a vibrant crafting community and marketplace.  Eventually with games like WoW, everybody has something good, so you need the constant gearflation that goes with ever-increasing more difficult raids.  Which requires more and more time.

    Better to just have good gear that you have to replace whenever you die and that degrades over time in any event to keep the market humming.

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