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Seeking Feedback: Mounts vs. Speed Buff Classes

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  • KappenWizKappenWiz Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 162Member

    With the game in the ether, I'd have to say the SBC are much more important than mounts. So, right now, my choice would be for mounts ONLY to be used for moving supplies. I agree mounts are cool, I did use them in DAOC. But there was much more PVE land to traverse. In PVP they didn't much impress me, so I see little to no use for them in this game, especially if you're trying to limit polys.

    Now, in DAOC, having a single class in each realm casting top speed made that class extremely important in RvR.

    Which created problems. Each realm had it's own group setup issues. We can spend a bunch of threads arguing about which realm had it worst, but I do think it's one of the few places where the uniqueness gained by the rearranging of spells in the different realms might not have outweighed the negatives.

    More importantly, it created a huge gulf between new/inexperienced players and the established groups or guilds. Obviously, guild groups had slots pretty well set up. That's no problem. But for the PUGs, you'd rarely have top speed, good heals, and mez in one group, especially as the game matured. When the random solo SBC players came along, they more often than not got absorbed by the better or larger guilds, because they knew how important speed was. And for the SBC it was a good deal to get in with a competent guild group. So, the gulf for PUGs almost never closed.

     

    1 solution in this thread was to make more than 1 class per realm have top speed. That might be the answer, but it does limit the uniqueness of each class.

    So what I'm wondering is: Would it be possible to make Speed Buffs additive?

    Probably a number of ways you could do it.

    For instance, say there are 3 different classes with speed buffs. Depending on spec, the max speed trainable would be:

    1.  Pure speed class - 75% of top speed
    2.  Second best SC - 40% of top speed
    3.  Third best - 25% of top speed

    So, specced for speed, the purest speed buff class would only ever run at 75% of the fastest speed you could go in game. BUT, in a group, you'd add the buffs together, never exceeding 100%.

    If a group contained a 1 and 2 SBC, they'd have 100% speed.  If they had a 1 and 3, 100%. If they had two 2's and a 3, still at 100% speed. Top speed would be attainable a number of ways. Also, having a mix of the lower speeds would still give you a decent shot at being close to 100%, whereas in DAOC, no matter how many theurgists you had, you were getting jammed by gank groups every time.

    If the classes are killed in battle, the group would lose the speed benefit, so it would create a lot of different situations on the field, I think.

    This is just the general idea, other things like how the individual buff mechanics work (twisting, permacast, short use on RUT) would have to be considered. Also, the numbers might need tweaked to make the Pure Speed Class better, so the gap isn't closed too easily when one isn't grouped.

  • StilerStiler Athens, TNPosts: 599Member

    While I was really hoping for mounted combat, I'd still like to at least see mounts, and maybe down the line mounted combat could be added in an expansion if it can be done justice and enough people want it/the game is capable of having it.

    The idea of using them to carry things is a plus, and as siege equipment moving is also a great idea and helps seperate them from other mmo mounts.

    Also like having them be a reward for RVR, will make them look more meaningful and not simply be a simple "level/gold" requirment. Especially nice if there's different mounts for different specific things oyu accomplish in RVR, and not by how "much" but rather what specifically you do. So people that do a certain thing well will get access to  a mount differently then someone else, even if they did the same "amount" of work in RVR but had different goals.

    If mounts do make it in, PLEASE do them correctly in terms of speed and movement/controls. So many mmo's still have not did this that well at all, where horses are controlled the same as your character, where you have only two speeds, a "stop and go" and that's it. horses are not people, they have "Gaits" which are bascially like well a throttle system, where they move at certain speeds, with many having up to four or so speeds, from walking, trotting, canter, and galloping.  As well the whole horses turning on a team/strafing around, etc. Just please try to make them control/look as close to how an actual horse or mount would, allow horses to actually be FAST and not the usual "150%" speed as a person. Horses can run over 50+ mph, and in games it just looks no where near that fast, especially compared to the humans running/walking about.

    Look at games like Mount and Blade (controls are great here, works like a flight sim with a throttle system bascially, you push w, it goes up a gait, push s, it goes back a gait, hold W and it goes into a gallop, hold S and they stop quicker) and Red Dead Redemption (best model of a horse in a game imo, next to Shadow of the colossus), horses looked/moved so realistic.

     

    Moving onto the speed buff classes:

    Having speed buff classes which give people speeds faster then a horse seems a bit strange, and personally to me it would look a bit silly to see some guy come running by your horse. I can understand having speed buff classes that can give people a speed close to a horse while on foot, or even one that works WHLE on a horse to make the horse go faster, that would look "ok," but having people just strolling by you while riding your horse looks a bit...strange to me.

    Also regarding speed classes, personally I'm not a fan of them in terms of providing, as you mention , "SBC classes will always be able to cast the fastest speed buffs in the game by a very significant margin. Thus, It will still always be to your advantage to have an SBC in your group" To me, this is near what I see as a  "buffbot" which I have saw you mention you aren't a fan of. 

    It wouldn't be that bad if they gave slight speed boots (near mount speed on foot, and say + 10/20% while on a mount) something that would say, help people a little bit, provide a reason to want one, but if it's to the point where you "Need" one to get around in any decent time (even with a mount) , where if you don't have one if feels like you're moving slow as molasses compared to when you do have one and leads to peopel pulling out their hair asking for the buff in chat and waiting around for one in groups.

    Just having flashbacks of asking for SOW in EQ all the time when going out of cities and seeing it in chat, though SOW wasn't as big a speed buff as some of the ones in DAOC either.

     

     

     

     

     

  • tleartlear Toronto, ONPosts: 142Member
    Originally posted by SyrixII

    I'm getting in this conversation late, but if poly counts for combat are the big concern then i have a couple of main questions to ask...

     

    1. Don't you think that in stand off situations or situations before fights, people will still be mounted so they have that speed buff to retreat with in case they see the fight is not favoring their side.

    2. Also, don't people always come running up on mounts to the fight anyway putting them on screen for others as they come riding into the fight to join it.

     

    With these two thoughts in mind, I know they wouldn't be fighting on the mounts, but it still puts a good bit of the poly count burden on the fights just by including mounts into the game. I think the game is best served with SBC only and leave the mounts out of the game.

     

    Plus... I have always hated those *poof* and a mount is summoned moments. It's just stupid...

    Very well said, especially for zergs when 2 zergs collide you gona be rendering and loading all the mount, which will poof in 2 sec. Just dump the mounts, not worth the hastle

  • CromicaCromica West Fargo, NDPosts: 657Member Uncommon

    Mounts with differetn armor based on rank would be cool

    Speed buffs should work on mounts also but there needs to be a cap on the speed.

    Mounts increase speed by 80%

    Speed buff increases speed  to 120% even those on mounts 

  • meddyckmeddyck Athens, GAPosts: 1,140Member Uncommon
    So, Mark, should we read anything into the fact that you are asking gameplay questions like this such as you are confident the kickstarter will succeed?

    Camelot Unchained Backer
    DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  • meddyckmeddyck Athens, GAPosts: 1,140Member Uncommon

    Thinking about this more, what I think would be best is:

    • 2 speed buff classes per realm. This would make forming groups more flexible than in DAOC where each realm only had one fastest speed class.
    • Every character would get a "jog" ability that would give him permanent increased movement speed. It would only be castable out of combat and would drop if an enemy player used an ability on you. It would be faster than walking but noticeably slower than the speed class speed.
    • For instance, say normal speed is 100%. Sprinting could be 150% speed for a short duration including in combat. Jogging would be permanent 150% speed out of combat. And the speed class speed would be 200% or even 225%.
    Advantages of doing it this way:
    • Don't need to spend development resources on creating horse graphics and coding.
    • No horses impacting frame rates in RvR.
    • No need for extra sources of speed such as hasteners, speed potions, etc.
     

    Camelot Unchained Backer
    DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  • BrohallaBrohalla AlkmaarPosts: 11Member

    I like the idea of having speed buff classes. Tho it would need more tweaking than using classes like in DaoC. Why would a speed buff class also have good damage output like a skald ? Much prefer the bard role for a speed buff class. Giving more classes speed would offer more flexible group making, but I kinda like the speed difference idea where speed is determined by the amount of support a character can give. This will make sure people make groups which in turn help make a community stronger.

    Never liked the horses. Period ;p

    _Back in DaoC!_

  • CatulusCatulus StocksfieldPosts: 16Member Uncommon

    This might be mechanically diffcult or just plain silly (i dont know), however I'm going to suggest it anyway.

    What about a bolt/buck mechanic to limit horses?

    Keep the movement speed the same of horses and speed buff classes but if a player is mounted and attacked  there is a percentage chance the horse will flee in panic briefly (similar to fear mechanics from gw2, wow) or 'buck' knockdown on player charcacter. this could provide a way to combat uncoordinated mounted zergs who would find at least some of their number running off and give the advantage  to organised groups who planned to allocate speed classes correctly therefore not needing mounts. soloers, crafters etc however could still move around at a decent speed just with more risk.

  • Teh_AxiTeh_Axi HalifaxPosts: 380Member

    Mounts are cool, so they should be in the game.

    Give them a health bar or something so players can't just ride off into the sunset when being attacked.

  • falcukfalcuk ashfordPosts: 41Member

    I like the idea of mounts, give them HP bars and let them be killed and then skinned etc :P

     

    Speed buff classes is a must also, having RVR'd as a Bard for many years id love this gameplay again.

  • MidHealerMidHealer StuttgartPosts: 15Member

     

    I support having speed classes with group speed, a la DAoC.

    Now, having to have instruments equipped for speed is maybe something that could be reconsidered, since it only means carpal tunnel syndrome in making and/or encourages keyboards/programs with macro capablities. Although, I have to admit, having instruments equipped with actual purpose was really something unique for DAoC, so mark me undecided on this issue.

     

    On spreading max speed ("speed 5") on multiple classes:

    Watering down the capabilities on multiple classes is something happening in "modern" hand-holding MMOs, and is not really what I would like to see in CU. Having everyone have max speed, all spells, healing, etc waters down the whole thing for me. Once removed (primary/secondary xy) is enough - for example primary and secondary healer, heavy and light melee, speed 5 and speed 3 classes, heavy and light CC classes, etc - this is the way to go, in my opinion.

    Having classes renowned for something they can (and other can't) is what makes classes interesting and unique. Remember Healers (CC/Healing) or Clerics (Wizards in Chainmail with Healing) Or Minstrels (Chain+Stealth+Speed+CC)? Or Rangers and Scouts (Stealth+Bow)? Or Shadowblades (Stealth + Berserker Dual-Axes)?

    Now, those were the true classes I will remember for life, not this watered down everyone-can-everything-but-not-very-good crap in modern MMOs.

     

    ***

    Mounts are, for me, more a cosmetic perk, and I would rather not see them in RvR, than having fps problems because of them.

    Birger, Galahad, Healer
    Midgard forever

  • Plastic-MetalPlastic-Metal Highland Heights, KYPosts: 405Member
    Originally posted by MidHealer

     

    I support having speed classes with group speed, a la DAoC.

    Now, having to have instruments equipped for speed is maybe something that could be reconsidered, since it only means carpal tunnel syndrome in making and/or encourages keyboards/programs with macro capablities. Although, I have to admit, having instruments equipped with actual purpose was really something unique for DAoC, so mark me undecided on this issue.

     

    On spreading max speed ("speed 5") on multiple classes:

    Watering down the capabilities on multiple classes is something happening in "modern" hand-holding MMOs, and is not really what I would like to see in CU. Having everyone have max speed, all spells, healing, etc waters down the whole thing for me. Once removed (primary/secondary xy) is enough - for example primary and secondary healer, heavy and light melee, speed 5 and speed 3 classes, heavy and light CC classes, etc - this is the way to go, in my opinion.

    Having classes renowned for something they can (and other can't) is what makes classes interesting and unique. Remember Healers (CC/Healing) or Clerics (Wizards in Chainmail with Healing) Or Minstrels (Chain+Stealth+Speed+CC)? Or Rangers and Scouts (Stealth+Bow)? Or Shadowblades (Stealth + Berserker Dual-Axes)?

    Now, those were the true classes I will remember for life, not this watered down everyone-can-everything-but-not-very-good crap in modern MMOs.

     

    ***

    Mounts are, for me, more a cosmetic perk, and I would rather not see them in RvR, than having fps problems because of them.

     

    +1, this guy gets it

    My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

    image

  • falcukfalcuk ashfordPosts: 41Member
    Agree on the above also.
  • LaecLaec Munroe Falls, OHPosts: 11Member
    Personally I like the option of having the mount as a backup, but caster speed with endo pots on DAoC worked fine as a backup specially since we almost never had a minstrel. My biggest concern with speed classes is to make them useful in each realm so they are played in a group setting. I dont like mounted combat at all and i prefer to have a good running game vs fancy visuals and massive poly counts on my screen. Even with a killer rig i always turn down all settings to low so the game runs best in any situation
  • drakon3drakon3 Liberty Lake, WAPosts: 114Member
    I prefer not to have mounted combat.  As long as their are alternative methods of speed for non-speed classes then I'm ok with horses being for housing/non PvP only.
  • g0m0rrahg0m0rrah indianapolis, INPosts: 269Member

     

    In my humble opinion, the biggest fail of DAOC (besides expansions) was classes focused on buffing.  Buff bots were a plague.  People ran side accounts simply to have a toon buff, hide the toon, then go out and participate in combat. The issues I have are:

    1. Buff Bots: there is no fun gained from their existence. People do not like playing them and if they exist they become a requirement if you want a chance to win

    2. Speed Abilities: Movement speed is always the most important thing in a PvP game.  If I am faster than you and we engage in combat, either I win or I flee, barring CC.  If I am faster than you and I see you approach I can choose to engage or flee. If you are slower than me and I approach you have no options.'

    I suggest that the game have buffs but do so in a mild form.  Buffs should mostly be personal.  Global or Ally-centric buffs should be rare. Even when I look at classes such as the Paladin for DAoC, i ponder how fun were they to play.  With Paladins they atleast had to be present in the fight for their buffs to be effective, but I do not see the play style being dynamic enough to play.

    What I am getting at is that buffs should exist but mostly in a short term effect, when they affect multiple allies or enemies, Long term buffs should be self only or a specialized mechanic such as: I cast Blessing on myself which converts 5% of the damage I deal to an aoe heal targeted at myself. Buffs like: Potency gives +20 strength for 1 hour, simply do not belong.  If I am a mage and I cast an Intelligence buff on myself, isnt this redundant. I am a mage, intelligence is my focus, I spend statistics and get items which increase intelligence, so why do I need a buff that increases it when the Intelligence I need can simply be built into the class.  Is there some kind of "oh shit I have a buff in my buff bar that everyone can see" epeen that people want stroked? Is it just fodder for the buff removal class? Maybe I just dont get it...

    "1) I think that CU needs to have support classes that have speed buffs. They were obviously very popular in Dark Age and in other games. I would definitely like to see them implemented in CU and currently, they do have a slot in the launch classes."

     I think that you mistake popular with necessary.  If you create something and you give it power, people will flock to it regardless if its fun.  If you created a magic circle that if you stand in for 6 hours and it will guarantee victory for the next hour, you will have a mosh pit on your hands...

  • Niix_OzekNiix_Ozek Calgary, ABPosts: 397Member

    Why not just make mounts a thing for crafters only? Give crafters ability to chain a caravan and maybe added protection with increased speed to get to locations needed in RvR zones. Have stables at the border keeps and allow them to be able to build a stables quickly so when they arrive at their location they can build a stables and dock their horses.

     

    Please keep them away from RvR players though, that's all I ask :)

    Ozek - DAOC
    Niix - Other games that sucked

  • Casca9226Casca9226 phoenix, AZPosts: 25Member
    Originally posted by Niix_Ozek

    Why not just make mounts a thing for crafters only? Give crafters ability to chain a caravan and maybe added protection with increased speed to get to locations needed in RvR zones. Have stables at the border keeps and allow them to be able to build a stables quickly so when they arrive at their location they can build a stables and dock their horses.

     

    Please keep them away from RvR players though, that's all I ask :)

    thats actually a good idea. I do like the thought of mounts and SBC's. Didnt bother me that the horse went poof when you got attacked. I think having both would be good.

  • SyrixIISyrixII Loris, SCPosts: 43Member
    Originally posted by Casca9226
    Originally posted by Niix_Ozek

    Why not just make mounts a thing for crafters only? Give crafters ability to chain a caravan and maybe added protection with increased speed to get to locations needed in RvR zones. Have stables at the border keeps and allow them to be able to build a stables quickly so when they arrive at their location they can build a stables and dock their horses.

     

    Please keep them away from RvR players though, that's all I ask :)

    thats actually a good idea. I do like the thought of mounts and SBC's. Didnt bother me that the horse went poof when you got attacked. I think having both would be good.

    I have to ask though... Do you add mounts just for the sake of adding them? Or is there is reason they need to be added? The only reason to add them can easily be accounted for with SBC. I guess you could say the reason is so that non-SBC can have speed when they are solo. However, if you take that approch, then why shouldn't every class all have the same skills because others have it too... My point is, What is adding mounts into the mix bringing to the table that justifies doing it? I just don't see a whole lot there.

    This would be a different story if they were bringing mounted combat with it though, but they're not. So I just don't see the need.

  • Niix_OzekNiix_Ozek Calgary, ABPosts: 397Member

    Well exactly, but from my understanding if you make a crafting class you won't really be able to pvp? Correct me if i'm wrong, but they are pure crafting classes. Would provide RP and realism to the crafters who are the players that really love that stuff so why not allow them to carry materials via donkey mounts and allow them to collaborate caravans.

    This shouldn't effect PVP and RVR players at all as they would be religated to SBC or run speed / sprint.

    Adding mounts in DAOC was done because people complained their <insert non SBC> didn't run fast, which contradicts the purpose and statements made by Mark ( from my understanding ).

    Ozek - DAOC
    Niix - Other games that sucked

  • akleyakley plymouth, MAPosts: 17Member
    Originally posted by tlear
    No mounts please

    1. The whole *poof* disappeared mechanic is just lame
    2. Even out of combat they add poly counts
    3. Unkillable

    If you want to have them for carrying stuff like siege or components why not add pack horses, mules donkeys? These would have to stabled, could be killed or even captured, would not just disappear.

    ^^ This guy said it perfectly.

     

    Please, please no mounts. The only thing said about this game thus far that made me cringe was mounts. Even in small amounts it takes away from pvp and speed classes. Please god don't waste time on mounts.

  • fanglofanglo Virginia, VAPosts: 290Member
    Originally posted by SyrixII
    Originally posted by Casca9226
    Originally posted by Niix_Ozek

    Why not just make mounts a thing for crafters only? Give crafters ability to chain a caravan and maybe added protection with increased speed to get to locations needed in RvR zones. Have stables at the border keeps and allow them to be able to build a stables quickly so when they arrive at their location they can build a stables and dock their horses.

     

    Please keep them away from RvR players though, that's all I ask :)

    thats actually a good idea. I do like the thought of mounts and SBC's. Didnt bother me that the horse went poof when you got attacked. I think having both would be good.

    I have to ask though... Do you add mounts just for the sake of adding them? Or is there is reason they need to be added? The only reason to add them can easily be accounted for with SBC. I guess you could say the reason is so that non-SBC can have speed when they are solo. However, if you take that approch, then why shouldn't every class all have the same skills because others have it too... My point is, What is adding mounts into the mix bringing to the table that justifies doing it? I just don't see a whole lot there.

    This would be a different story if they were bringing mounted combat with it though, but they're not. So I just don't see the need.

    The main reason for mounts for crafters is to target the crafter give them speed and extra storage space. As I posted earlier if mounts meant increased supply then if an enemy saw someone on a mount they could assume that person had a ton of supplies on them, be it seige equipment or harvesting resources. Either way if there was an ability to steal those resources from the player by killing the horse, then it would be awesome.

    I healed Mistwraith and all I got was this stupid tee-shirt!

  • tleartlear Toronto, ONPosts: 142Member

    You know if the game was using Central Asia as a setting and focused on mounted combat with bows, lances etc. It would be AWESOME. But this is not that game.. :)

    If you want to have pack animals sure that would be cool, but make them killable and capturable. Otherwise add a jog skill to everyone that gives you speed boost out of combat and SPCs give more speed then that. Boom done. Next feature. Do not waste time building modes, animation etc for riding horses and such where you are not actually not riding anything but just using out of comabt speed buff.

  • StilerStiler Athens, TNPosts: 599Member

    Mounts can add more to the game depending on how they are done.

    What about making mounts not "Summonable" rather have them work more like UO? Where you got mounts by either taming them or buying them from a stable? (You could ti ehte RVR reward mounts into this, and have those types of mounts become buyable at a stable once you unlock them). Of coures the gold has to be adjusted to buy mounts, it can't be like WoW and other more modern mmo's where mounts are a gigantic money sink, because people will lose them and thus the gold needs to cost less to account for this.

    Allow mounts to be lost/killable, which can lead to other aspects of strategy and tactics for the RVR and overall gameplay.

    You can have the mounts which carry siege equipment, and obviously their speed would be limited, and thus vunerable to attack at this time. If someone comes across a group of people who's using mounts to take siege equipment somewhere it would make for a nice strategic target, knowing that if oyu take them out now you will be helping someone somewhere else because obviousl they had plans to siege a structure somewhere.

    For mounts that haul resources it's the same thing, you could even allow people to capture the mount carrying supplies (or if they kill it even) the ability to loot all the supplies on it.

    In order to make mounts useful/needed for carrying resoruces and things, they should weigh quite a bit (so people can't just toss them in their backpack if they see an eneemy coming, etc) as well as to give mounts a reasl reason to be used in that regard.

     

    If horses are summoned then  You can have it work similar to how Assassin's creed 3 did, where you whistle and the horse comes running at you from a distance, so it doesn't look "magical" and logically might make sense. Gives it kind of a Zorro/Lone Ranger vibe.

     

     

     

  • Daimonion69Daimonion69 RegensburgPosts: 29Member

    Imho, it should be all or nothing.

    If you have mounts, then there needs to be mounted battle. There is only RvR area and battle can happen everywhere, so a restricted mount use would not make much sense.

     

    Mounted battle would need:

    • attacks from horses
    • mounts with special attacks
    • mounts with hitpoints
    • mounts that throws down riders and flee, when no HP
    • some disadvantages to fooded combat
    • ...
     
    No mounted battle would need:
    • nothing of all above ;)
     
     
     
    About the speed classes, i liked the daoc system, with the asymetric speed classes (rouge, priest, warrior).
    However, secondary speed class skill (below full speed), are almost useless... almost.
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