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A Diffrent way of thinking about an mmo, have no levels

2

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  • SengiSengi HamburgPosts: 350Member

    @ Amathe and others:

     Wait a minute! This thread is not about level based character progression versus skill based progression. We talked about no character progression at all, including gear progression.

    Does someone know if there ever was a game that had this, and how it turned out? Maybe a text based one, or something?

    @bnxbandit:

    Sounds good. +1

    As I experienced them, dynamic events have their flaws too. The players do most the time form a big zerg but there is not much real interaction.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Sengi

    @ Amathe and others:

     Wait a minute! This thread is not about level based character progression versus skill based progression. We talked about no character progression at all, including gear progression.

    Does someone know if there ever was a game that had this, and how it turned out?

    "This" meaning "Skill based progression"? Sure, there have been several of them (DF springs to mind). Hardly a new idea, it goes back at least as far as GURPs, Call of Cthulu.

    "This" meaning "Skill based non-progression, as described by op"? Nothing springs to mind, except pure Roleplaying systems like LARPing, maybe some Steve Jackson games. Paranoia, maybe?

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • azmundaiazmundai St Louis, MOPosts: 1,417Member

    Someone basically said it, but what is needed is answers.

    What are you replacing leveling with? Do the mobs drop loot? Is progression just a gear grind? Lets hope not. But if not, then what?

    LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
    I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  • SengiSengi HamburgPosts: 350Member

    I meant no progression in stats at all. In the end this means you create a char that is max level and has maxed out gear. And the mobs are also all max level but some of them are veterans, some are champions and some are world bosses or anything in between. And the farer you go into the wilderness, the harder the ones you encounter.

     

    Of course there is that thing called horizontal and vertical progression.

    Vertical progression is when your char gets a stronger version of what he already has, for example a super-fireball instead of a normal fireball.

    And horizontal progression is when he gets something that has the same level of power but is different, an iceball that does the same damage but freezes instead of burning, or something completely differed like Invisibility, or something purely visual like a new hat with the same stats as the old one.

     

    The vertical progression is the one that shall be removed. So you can start as a fighter and then become a assassin/priest with a bow and find a golden armour or whatever you like. But nothing of that makes you kill mobs faster.

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Benedikt

    first of all i would probably not play it since character development is one of the main reasons i platy mmo(rpg)s.

    but if i omit that, i still have to ask - what would i kill those mobs for? what would be the drive?

    i can understand making mmofps w/o char progression, where you would pvp other players (tho i think "normal" multiplayer fps are better for that), but to kill mobs? i can understand making them challenging like raid mobs, but then again - i would kill each of them once and then left bored.

    Levels != Character Progression.

    its just a type of character progression. Don't confuse those two statements. It's hard for most people to understand without seeing the idea themselves. I learned this over my years dealing with MMOs.

    image

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,660Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite

    Or the concept that games existed just fine without PvP at one time.

    Blasphemy!

     

    :)

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • bnxbanditbnxbandit quezon cityPosts: 23Member
    Originally posted by Sengi

    @bnxbandit:

    Sounds good. +1

    As I experienced them, dynamic events have their flaws too. The players do most the time form a big zerg but there is not much real interaction.

        That's where smarter mobs come up. Like I said before, mobs can also group up to rape you. It will be a matter of strategy and not zerging one mob but I think some players will find a way to zerg things up no matter how smart mobs are. If a big monster is attacking a village I suggest it should use the village's resources. Say rather than stomping people it could take a rooftop and use it as a shield and a pillar for a weapon. Having interaction even for mobs can really do a lot imo. But if the zerg does happen it should just happen in daily rotations.

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,762Member Uncommon
    There are MMO's without levels already out there, TSW springs to mind. Not sure thats quite what the OP was going on about though.
  • tom_goretom_gore TamperePosts: 1,796Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Sengi

    @ Amathe and others:

     Wait a minute! This thread is not about level based character progression versus skill based progression. We talked about no character progression at all, including gear progression.

    Does someone know if there ever was a game that had this, and how it turned out?

    "This" meaning "Skill based progression"? Sure, there have been several of them (DF springs to mind). Hardly a new idea, it goes back at least as far as GURPs, Call of Cthulu.

    "This" meaning "Skill based non-progression, as described by op"? Nothing springs to mind, except pure Roleplaying systems like LARPing, maybe some Steve Jackson games. Paranoia, maybe?

    To be fair, both GURPS and CoC both have very little in practical character progression. Every game session you're lucky to get 4-5 points in GURPS and 3-10% in skills in CoC. Given how lethal both game systems are, most characters will never advance that much before dying.

    But as said in this thread already. Mass market today requires instant gratification and fast leveling. And I cannot blame them, as leveling and stat/gear progression is pretty much all there is to modern MMOs.

    If you think about Ultima Online, it wasn't much of a chore to max out your character's skills and stats, but still people kept playing because there was so much to do and the game offered great tools for actual roleplaying. Making your own events, waging your own wars, building a village of player owned homes, etc.

    All that has been reduced to level to max, raid for gear, wait for next content patch, rinse and repeat.

     

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by tom_gore

    If you think about Ultima Online, it wasn't much of a chore to max out your character's skills and stats, but still people kept playing because there was so much to do and the game offered great tools for actual roleplaying. Making your own events, waging your own wars, building a village of player owned homes, etc.

    All that has been reduced to level to max, raid for gear, wait for next content patch, rinse and repeat.

    I used to tell people that roleplay was the secret to getting years out of a game, long after everyone else was bored and surfing the market again.

    But--99% of the gaming world rejects roleplay. They outnumber me (at least) 99:1 now. My answer is not a valid answer for very many people. I get that.

    Some large percentage (X) doesn't want to associate with other people, doesn't care about 'community' or any of the other things that we used to play games for. The min/maxer, two-percenter that we used to make fun of? Just about all there is in the market now.

    I choose not to try point a gun at someone's head, "Play the way I say is Right (capital R)." If the industry finds it easier and cheaper to collect their dollars (as, apparently, it does) than mine...well, I'm told I post too much anyway.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • DzoneDzone bowling green, KYPosts: 351Member Uncommon

    Ok so this thread is sounding like some proggrestion is still needed somehow. I was originally just thinking about having no levels at all for progression, because its so quick to level to max so why bother. 

     

    A little bit about me, i started playing mmo's in 2003 with ffxi, wich was a vertical progression game. But times have changed so much since then i started to think why have levels at all the way there going with verticall proggresion. It doesn't keep peaple playing for the long run anymore.

     

    So it seems like some kind of proggrestion is needed still though, so im thinking about having a player ranking system instead of the basic level system. The way it would work is everyone would start off the game as a rookie, and as you complete things in game and keep logging in ocationally you will gradually gain higher ranks. With each rank you would unlock more powerfull spells/abilities. But on the flipside if you stop playing for a period of time the system would down rank you, like if you dont log in for over a month. So basically lets say you play for like 3 months regularely and complete a certain amount of game content, you would go up a rank, would keep peaple playing the game for the long run.

     

    This idea makes me think of what peaple have said about proggresion in EVE online, maybe player ranking would work for fantasy style mmo's. Then that would take away the whole play the game for 3 months and quit idea that's been going around these forumns.

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Scot
    There are MMO's without levels already out there, TSW springs to mind. Not sure thats quite what the OP was going on about though.

    thats not the same since it still uses exp and content locks similar to level based MMO.

    image

  • Squeak69Squeak69 Colorado Springs, COPosts: 956Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by tom_gore

    If you think about Ultima Online, it wasn't much of a chore to max out your character's skills and stats, but still people kept playing because there was so much to do and the game offered great tools for actual roleplaying. Making your own events, waging your own wars, building a village of player owned homes, etc.

    All that has been reduced to level to max, raid for gear, wait for next content patch, rinse and repeat.

    I used to tell people that roleplay was the secret to getting years out of a game, long after everyone else was bored and surfing the market again.

    But--99% of the gaming world rejects roleplay. They outnumber me (at least) 99:1 now. My answer is not a valid answer for very many people. I get that.

    Some large percentage (X) doesn't want to associate with other people, doesn't care about 'community' or any of the other things that we used to play games for. The min/maxer, two-percenter that we used to make fun of? Just about all there is in the market now.

    I choose not to try point a gun at someone's head, "Play the way I say is Right (capital R)." If the industry finds it easier and cheaper to collect their dollars (as, apparently, it does) than mine...well, I'm told I post too much anyway.

    i agree Roleplayning is what bring about longevity to MMOs and is often the most fun part of mMOs, but sadly most MMOs these days actually make it difficult to RP, and more often then not people dont wanna RP but POWER RP which basicly = i am all powerful and all others should fear me ( i swore off RP fighting years ago)

    but on the other hand i enjoy good rp and such will chose a bad mmo with a good rp group and decent mechanics to make life easyier on a RPer then a more advanced pretty game that makes RP difficult or has no real rp community

    P.S. ERP dose not = RP, i dont kick those who enjoy it but i dislike non RPers saying all RP is ERP

    F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used toimage
    Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.

  • AutemOxAutemOx Fullerton, CAPosts: 1,704Member

    Interesting OP.  Thanks for that!

    I am interested to see how a mmo like this would play out.  In one way, I think it would be getting rid of a meaningless gameplay mechanic that adds no real value to the game.  On the other hand, it removes a powerful reward for playing the game.  There could be alternative achievements however, in the form of items that change the way you look or trophies to decorate your home.

    In my opinion, developers continue to utilize levels because it is a cheap and effective reward system.  Alternative rewards take more time and effort to implement in the game as far as graphic design and programming goes.  To implement levels, all it really takes is a simple increase in XP --> increase in level --> increase in health/other.  Since each level is represented by a #, no graphic design is necessary.  Yet it gives the player a feeling of great achievement.

    It is a 'high yield' feature for that reason (quality/development time).  Of course, that depends on what you think yield means.  Is it really good that players are playing a game because they are enjoying being given arbitrary rewards that a developer put little or no work into?  The answer is a resounding yes, it is good, because the vast majority of RPG players choose to get enjoyment out of this arbitrary reward thus giving it merit (I wlll call them traditional players).  In fact the genre has been in part defined by this, and people who do not enjoy arbitrary reward tend to steer clear of RPGs.

    So in other words, your MMO would be a neutered RPG.  People may even end up labeling it an 'action game' or 'adventure game' instead of RPG, depending on the rest of the content of the game.  This might be preferrable because there are certain expectations in players minds when playing a MMORPG that the game will have leveling.  By not callling it an RPG you reset their expectations and can build a game that does not cater to the traditional player.  You would be in a different section of the market than most MMOs, thus not competing completely with other MMOs, which is nice for your game.

    This may grant you access to a larger player base if there are players who have been steering clear of RPGs in the past.  There is a HUGE LACK of non-traditional MMOs on the market.  The market percieves a lack of demand, but that may be because there has not been any attempts to create such a product; which is the catch-22 that MMORPG fans have been trapped in the last 10 years.  No developer has the balls to make a unique AAA title.

    Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.

  • SengiSengi HamburgPosts: 350Member

    @ tom_gore

    That’s right. UO had this no stat progression approach in a way. At least the fighting got up quite fast. And there were no specific zones for differed level requirements, and an ork was an ork and a halberd was a halberd, no level x ork and level y Halberd. And approaching an ettin alone was no good idea.

     

    @ bnxbandit

    Somehow there is that preconception that mmo player want dump mobs. Most mobs have an ai that is like two lines of code:

    while [(player distance < aggro distance) and (player distance > striking distance)] run towards player

    else while [player distance < striking distance] hit player

    According to what I heard, Elder Scrolls Online will improve this.

     

    @ icewhite, squeak69

    The problem with the role-playing is also that the games do nothing to support it. Is there anything that makes GW2 a better place to roleplay than Call of Duty? No, in GW2 you can’t even sit in chairs. When I try to rp in a mmo, the game only gets in the way. Just open up an chat and get out your D&D player’s handbook. That works far better.

     

    @ Dzone

    I think what you suggesting is a levelling system, only that you loose xp over time.

    There still needs to be something that traces the afford a player puts in the game. I think it’s always better to give the player something he can actually visually show of instead of a score.

  • ArChWindArChWind Some Place, WIPosts: 618Member Uncommon

    Take all experience earned and use it to buy things that will give progression such as basic skills, housing,, mounts, etc...  (short term carrot)

    Give alternate experience to invest in stats and advanced masteries skills  (long term carrot)

     

  • Dexter2010Dexter2010 Beverly Hills, CAPosts: 244Member Common
    Originally posted by Benedikt

    first of all i would probably not play it since character development is one of the main reasons i platy mmo(rpg)s.

    but if i omit that, i still have to ask - what would i kill those mobs for? what would be the drive?

    i can understand making mmofps w/o char progression, where you would pvp other players (tho i think "normal" multiplayer fps are better for that), but to kill mobs? i can understand making them challenging like raid mobs, but then again - i would kill each of them once and then left bored.

    GW1 was exactly this and awful.

  • YizleYizle Atlanta, GAPosts: 517Member

    Sounds like a pretty horrid game idea. At least for an mmorpg. All chars are the same?

    Where is the point?

  • mmoguy43mmoguy43 , CAPosts: 2,439Member Uncommon
    This must be one of those ideas that people don't think through.
  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member

    The problem with this is that players in MMOs demand progression. They want to get stronger. Which is why so many people hated the easy to obtain power cap in GW2.

    Personally I am fine with horizontal progression, but most players will just quit if they cannot get any stronger.

  • bnxbanditbnxbandit quezon cityPosts: 23Member

    Originally posted by evilastro

    The problem with this is that players in MMOs demand progression. They want to get stronger. Which is why so many people hated the easy to obtain power cap in GW2.

    Personally I am fine with horizontal progression, but most players will just quit if they cannot get any stronger.

    There is progression and you can get stronger. Better gear and mastering the game  is progression imo although there are no levels and thus no stat increases. Any person can describe progression in many ways but leveling is just the most basic kind. 

    Originally posted by Yizle

    Sounds like a pretty horrid game idea. At least for an mmorpg. All chars are the same?

    Where is the point?

    The point is to having fun playing the game yourself or with others. Believe me it can be an MMORPG. The characters can't be all the same but there is a chance one can copy another(newbies copying pro players). If you read my post about my thoughts I said:

    Character/s would assume different roles based on what kinda of skills, weapons, armor, passives, enhancements, etc. Skills don't have levels and you can swap out sets therefore changing your role.

     

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,660Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by bnxbandit

    Originally posted by Yizle

    Sounds like a pretty horrid game idea. At least for an mmorpg. All chars are the same?

    Where is the point?

    The point is to having fun playing the game yourself or with others. Believe me it can be an MMORPG. The characters can't be all the same but there is a chance one can copy another(newbies copying pro players). If you read my post about my thoughts I said:

    Character/s would assume different roles based on what kinda of skills, weapons, armor, passives, enhancements, etc. Skills don't have levels and you can swap out sets therefore changing your role.

    It would be an MMO, not an MMORPG. It would most likely be rejected by the same crowd you pitched it to. ;)

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • rounnerrounner CanberraPosts: 603Member Uncommon

    Sounds like Chivalry Medieval Warfare with a skill card deck.

  • tom_goretom_gore TamperePosts: 1,796Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Squeak69
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by tom_gore

    If you think about Ultima Online, it wasn't much of a chore to max out your character's skills and stats, but still people kept playing because there was so much to do and the game offered great tools for actual roleplaying. Making your own events, waging your own wars, building a village of player owned homes, etc.

    All that has been reduced to level to max, raid for gear, wait for next content patch, rinse and repeat.

    I used to tell people that roleplay was the secret to getting years out of a game, long after everyone else was bored and surfing the market again.

    But--99% of the gaming world rejects roleplay. They outnumber me (at least) 99:1 now. My answer is not a valid answer for very many people. I get that.

    Some large percentage (X) doesn't want to associate with other people, doesn't care about 'community' or any of the other things that we used to play games for. The min/maxer, two-percenter that we used to make fun of? Just about all there is in the market now.

    I choose not to try point a gun at someone's head, "Play the way I say is Right (capital R)." If the industry finds it easier and cheaper to collect their dollars (as, apparently, it does) than mine...well, I'm told I post too much anyway.

    i agree Roleplayning is what bring about longevity to MMOs and is often the most fun part of mMOs, but sadly most MMOs these days actually make it difficult to RP, and more often then not people dont wanna RP but POWER RP which basicly = i am all powerful and all others should fear me ( i swore off RP fighting years ago)

    but on the other hand i enjoy good rp and such will chose a bad mmo with a good rp group and decent mechanics to make life easyier on a RPer then a more advanced pretty game that makes RP difficult or has no real rp community

    P.S. ERP dose not = RP, i dont kick those who enjoy it but i dislike non RPers saying all RP is ERP

    Indeed. There is only a handful of games that have adequate roleplaying tools available to players (UO is one, LotrO is another). The rest of them have no tools for roleplaying or building an in-game community. Ironically, even WoW has more roleplaying tools than most games that have come out in the recent years.

    And I think the reason most people don't roleplay is because they have not tried it and their prejudices are telling them it's about cybering and dressing funny.

     

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Sengi

    @ icewhite, squeak69

    The problem with the role-playing is also that the games do nothing to support it...any more

    Sure, easier and cheaper to slap an "RP" tag on a PVE server, then proceed to ignore everything that happens on it.

    Just part of the Wonder of Minimal Customer Experience Cost that is a modern MMO theory.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

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