I am not saying those guys are the future because they're indie, I am saying they're the future because they got no investors/bosses who demand a certain level of profit for their investment which stiffles creativity because as a dev you're afraid to take risks because it might fail even worse than by just copying other games.
If games are not making profit, there is no future for games therefore developers not focusing on profit cannot be a future of the industry...simple logic.
Simply flawed logic ^^ Minecraft started out as a labour of love and shot through the roof, League of Legends again was made of a group of developers who loved DotA and had ideas how to improve upon it, Space Pirates and Zombies, Wurm Online, I can keep going on and on and on about labours of love that while they do not have any sure bet way of turning a massive profit do turn one enough for the devs to make the development of the game their job and keep both them and their families fed.
One does not need to focus on profit to make one and thus, your logic is flawed because they CAN be the future...
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Originally posted by jtcgs There is no exception.One does not need to focus on profit to make one and thus, your logic is flawed because they CAN be the future...
One does not need to focus on profit to make one and thus, your logic is flawed because they CAN be the future...
Read above...
Read the quote...
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
What for? You believe that repeating/re-reading flawed argument makes it valid?
I specifically pointed out why it does not work.
Nope you stated a opinion that's not even based on anything or backed up by anything ergo follow his advice it's good considering how little you know about the market (even failed indy games made a slim profit, just FYI).
What for? You believe that repeating/re-reading flawed argument makes it valid?
I specifically pointed out why it does not work.
You made a statemnet that was ALL INCLUSIVE based on OPINION.
If one SINGLE company made a profit, without focusing on profit...then your statement was FALSE...all it takes is ONE for you to be wrong...and you ARE wrong just with Ultima Online alone because Garriott is one rich mother effer who didnt care if it was a success or not...and it was.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Originally posted by jtcgs You made a statemnet that was ALL INCLUSIVE based on OPINION.If one SINGLE company made a profit, without focusing on profit...then your statement was FALSE...all it takes is ONE for you to be wrong...and you ARE wrong just with Ultima Online alone because Garriott is one rich mother effer who didnt care if it was a success or not...and it was.
Well, if you do not understand the difference between argument and opinion and does not understand simple premise that any commercial business needs profit to operate and remain competitive on the market...there is not much left for discussion....
A game is not a business, a developer is, a game is just a product, just FYI .
*speechless*
Ok, name examples of indie games which tanked, that's not even made back their initial investment, go ahead, I got a few months to spare -sits back and has a sip of cola from his glass-
You made a statemnet that was ALL INCLUSIVE based on OPINION.
If one SINGLE company made a profit, without focusing on profit...then your statement was FALSE...all it takes is ONE for you to be wrong...and you ARE wrong just with Ultima Online alone because Garriott is one rich mother effer who didnt care if it was a success or not...and it was.
Well, if you do not understand the difference between argument and opinion and does not understand simple premise that any commercial business needs profit to operate and remain competitive on the market...there is not much left for discussion....
That is not what you said. you said a company must focus on profit or it does not make one...you fail..and continue to fail over and over again.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
I think Star Citizen is a good example of mmo evolution. You can run a vanilla, persistent world while giving the community the ability to mod the game and host their own modded servers. This adds replayability to the game and people don't get bored as easily, waiting for the next big developer update. Developers can focus on expansions and the game will continue to sell boxes. Empowering the creative minds in a community with a good toolset may do wonders for longevity and box sales. DayZ made a lot of money for BI from people that had no idea what Arma2 was.
A game is not a business, a developer is, a game is just a product, just FYI .
*speechless*
Ok, name examples of indie games which tanked, that's not even made back their initial investment, go ahead, I got a few months to spare -sits back and has a sip of cola from his glass-
Dark and light or whatever it was called, a more recent example would be the Amular MMO which was in production, which failed after releasing a single player entry for the franchise. They certainly didn't make back their investments.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
A game is not a business, a developer is, a game is just a product, just FYI .
*speechless*
Ok, name examples of indie games which tanked, that's not even made back their initial investment, go ahead, I got a few months to spare -sits back and has a sip of cola from his glass-
Dark and light or whatever it was called, a more recent example would be the Amular MMO which was in production, which failed after releasing a single player entry for the franchise. They certainly didn't make back their investments.
Dark and Light was a fair while ago and "the Amular MMO" was by no means an indie game. It was a new company but it was a sizeable company with lots of overheads which is why they ran out of money so quickly.
PS, I don't want to be a part of that conversation I just objected to the Amular MMO being called an indie MMO just because the marketing pitch was that it was a labour of love. Hell EA was publishing it and it had big investors to answer to.
A game is not a business, a developer is, a game is just a product, just FYI .
*speechless*
Ok, name examples of indie games which tanked, that's not even made back their initial investment, go ahead, I got a few months to spare -sits back and has a sip of cola from his glass-
Dark and light or whatever it was called, a more recent example would be the Amular MMO which was in production, which failed after releasing a single player entry for the franchise. They certainly didn't make back their investments.
A quick google on dark and light revealed it was a P2P themepark MMO that got took down because of a lawsuit but it was bug ridden, donno where the indie part comes in as it had investors to answer to and seems to has been an attempt to ride the MMO wave generated by WoW so you can hardly call it indie or a labour of love.
Kingdoms of Amalur in contrast was not a game linked failure, it was a management failure, read up on it, the guys in charge of 38 studios did not meet their loan payments and got their crap repoed by what I remember. The MMO never got beyond pre-alpha stage and while you could call the game indie (as it was based on KoA which was a self published game made for gamers first) and a labour of love the single player part of the game was not a financial failure (hell I think they shipped around 1 mil copies before closing) but the company was just mismanaged into the ground.
I am curious about what people think will happen in the future of the genre so I have presented several questions below. Feel free to answer any, all or any number of questions you wish or anything related I didn't mention.
Will they stay roughly the same with the odd change happening here and there? or will they change dramatically?
Dramatically into non-MMOs. LOL, WOT shows that you can be really successful essentially doing nothing but arena combat. Ditch the world. Ditch the whole MMO concept.
D3 shows that you can add some MMO elements (AH, crafting) to a ARPG and be really successful. I think the future is a fragmentation. PoE is another example. An online ARPG with world zones.
MMO elements are taken into other games, and vice versa. Look at the new Destiny. A "share-world" shooter, instead of a proper MMO.
Will they integrate new peripherals such as the emerging virtual reality systems?
Probably not.
Will a few mass appealing games continue to dominate ? or will the MMO players have more choices and consequently scatter across several niches?
There are already many choices. STO, DDO, LOTRO, TERA, RIFT, ......
Will the cost of producing them keep spiraling out of control? or will new technologies make them cheaper to produce?
There will be big ones, and small ones. The small ones may focus on one aspect of gameplay and ditch the "have to have everything" approach.
Will MMOs even continue to survive with the current populations? or will growing genres such as social and mobile games make them endangered?
Hard to say. I guess we will see. There is no lack of new development though.
What do people expect from the future from MMOs?
Fun games. Most players probably don't care about games being "proper MMOs" as long as they are fun.
I am not saying those guys are the future because they're indie, I am saying they're the future because they got no investors/bosses who demand a certain level of profit for their investment which stiffles creativity because as a dev you're afraid to take risks because it might fail even worse than by just copying other games.
If games are not making profit, there is no future for games therefore developers not focusing on profit cannot be a future of the industry...simple logic.
Simply flawed logic ^^ Minecraft started out as a labour of love and shot through the roof, League of Legends again was made of a group of developers who loved DotA and had ideas how to improve upon it, Space Pirates and Zombies, Wurm Online, I can keep going on and on and on about labours of love that while they do not have any sure bet way of turning a massive profit do turn one enough for the devs to make the development of the game their job and keep both them and their families fed.
I'd agree up to a point. Those who do games for the sake of games will likely always be with us. As the available tools become capable of more and more, we are likely to see even more of that. But I suspect thats inherently self limiting.
The largest advances are likely to be in those who combine a love of what they are doing, with the connections/social skills required to attract venture funding. Money is, and will likely remain (as long as we live in a scarcity economy) one of the prime motivators for personal advancement.
Once we move beyond a scarcity economy, all bets are off. But barring a sequence of genius flashes, I doubt many of us are going to live to see that.
But looking back, I doubt anyone could have predicted (before hand) what would happen when Blizzard started WoW, and it exploded as it did. Perhaps we will see something like that (or even more so) in the future.
“Will they stay roughly the same with the odd change happening here and there? or will they change dramatically?”
- Nothing in life stops changing unless there is a counter force to stop it changing. I see no such force apart from those of us who complain on forums and platform issues. Neither will halt that change.
“Will they integrate new peripherals such as the emerging virtual reality systems?”
- They will but come back in thirty years my which time they will have done it.
“Will a few mass appealing games continue to dominate ? or will the MMO players have more choices and consequently scatter across several niches?”
- Players have already scattered. Then they swarm locust like on a title before scattering again.
“Will the cost of producing them keep spiraling out of control? or will new technologies make them cheaper to produce?”
- Too many factors here to make a sound judgment.
“What effects will crowdfunding have on the genre?”
- Saturate it even more. One of these new gameplay style MMOs may make a killing. If so it will be the template all new kickstarter MMO’s are based on.
“Will MMOs even continue to survive with the current populations? or will growing genres such as social and mobile games make them endangered?”
- They already are endangered, Social and Mobile gaming is already having a negative impact.
“What do people expect from the future from MMOs?”
Ok, name examples of indie games which tanked, that's not even made back their initial investment, go ahead, I got a few months to spare -sits back and has a sip of cola from his glass-
Aerrevan
Knights of Dream City
Black Prophecy
Fasaria World
Celetania
Earth Eternal
Secondhand Lands
7Million
Rubies of Eventide
Earthrise
Fury
Gods and Heroes: Rome Rising
Dungeon Empires
Never out the gate...
Firefly Universe
Dawntide
well, this column could go on almost forever.
If you want to refine what qualifies for indie I can put together a better list for you.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Will they stay roughly the same with the odd change happening here and there? or will they change dramatically? They will stay the same for some time yet.
Will they integrate new peripherals such as the emerging virtual reality systems? No. New technology cuts into which players can play the game and the focus right now is "as many players as possible."
Will a few mass appealing games continue to dominate ? or will the MMO players have more choices and consequently scatter across several niches? I don't foresee another WoW in the near future. The MMO players today no longer seek a long term commitment from their "games."
Will the cost of producing them keep spiraling out of control? or will new technologies make them cheaper to produce? The technology and player expectations will keep costs high. Voice acting is not cheap. Varied and deep artwork is not cheap. Each bell and whistle adds to the cost.
What effects will crowdfunding have on the genre? I think that will fade, in time.
Will MMOs even continue to survive with the current populations? or will growing genres such as social and mobile games make them endangered? That is a good question. Not many MMOs released in the past 10 years have actually shut down. Somehow, they are making money. Social and mobile gaming, to me, is a "shiny new thingie" that will dull when their limitations become apparent. Look at mobile games right now. Are there many kinds of games that aren't a basic re-hash of old 8 bit console/arcade games? Sure, they look prettier, but you still basically jump and shoot things.
What do people expect from the future from MMOs? Not much, really. MMOs will be produced to please as many players as possible which means they won't please many players at all. There will be F2P games galore where players will jump from game to game to game and any one game's community will suffer. The main thought in most player's minds will still be "me first" for quite some time to come.
MMOs have lost their roleplaying aspect. Most players today don't want it. *They* want to be the hero, not their character. Most players break every game down to bare numbers and do the math to get the best, most efficient results. That is the attitude for winning and has its place, but not in RPGs.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Ok, name examples of indie games which tanked, that's not even made back their initial investment, go ahead, I got a few months to spare -sits back and has a sip of cola from his glass-
Aerrevan
Knights of Dream City
Black Prophecy
Fasaria World
Celetania
Earth Eternal
Secondhand Lands
7Million
Rubies of Eventide
Earthrise
Fury
Gods and Heroes: Rome Rising
Dungeon Empires
Never out the gate...
Firefly Universe
Dawntide
well, this column could go on almost forever.
If you want to refine what qualifies for indie I can put together a better list for you.
And what about games that didn't shut down but never recouped their development costs and so were sold off one or more times (eventually they did make money but not for the original team and only after the buyer got them for a bargain).
Istaria and FE come to mind for starters, probably many more, Ryzom perhaps.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by Loktofeit The next era is here. The people clinging to what a 'true' MMO 'should be' are just not part of it.
That was the hardest part for me, but I am coming to grips with it
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Comments
Simply flawed logic ^^ Minecraft started out as a labour of love and shot through the roof, League of Legends again was made of a group of developers who loved DotA and had ideas how to improve upon it, Space Pirates and Zombies, Wurm Online, I can keep going on and on and on about labours of love that while they do not have any sure bet way of turning a massive profit do turn one enough for the devs to make the development of the game their job and keep both them and their families fed.
No flaw, exception does not make a rule.
There is no exception.
One does not need to focus on profit to make one and thus, your logic is flawed because they CAN be the future...
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Read above...
Read the quote...
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
What for? You believe that repeating/re-reading flawed argument makes it valid?
I specifically pointed out why it does not work.
Nope you stated a opinion that's not even based on anything or backed up by anything ergo follow his advice
it's good considering how little you know about the market (even failed indy games made a slim profit, just FYI).
FYI, when business fails it means it is not making profit.
You made a statemnet that was ALL INCLUSIVE based on OPINION.
If one SINGLE company made a profit, without focusing on profit...then your statement was FALSE...all it takes is ONE for you to be wrong...and you ARE wrong just with Ultima Online alone because Garriott is one rich mother effer who didnt care if it was a success or not...and it was.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
A game is not a business, a developer is, a game is just a product, just FYI
.
Well, if you do not understand the difference between argument and opinion and does not understand simple premise that any commercial business needs profit to operate and remain competitive on the market...there is not much left for discussion....
*speechless*
Ok, name examples of indie games which tanked, that's not even made back their initial investment, go ahead, I got a few months to spare -sits back and has a sip of cola from his glass-
That is not what you said. you said a company must focus on profit or it does not make one...you fail..and continue to fail over and over again.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
I think Star Citizen is a good example of mmo evolution. You can run a vanilla, persistent world while giving the community the ability to mod the game and host their own modded servers. This adds replayability to the game and people don't get bored as easily, waiting for the next big developer update. Developers can focus on expansions and the game will continue to sell boxes. Empowering the creative minds in a community with a good toolset may do wonders for longevity and box sales. DayZ made a lot of money for BI from people that had no idea what Arma2 was.
Just an opinion.
Dark and light or whatever it was called, a more recent example would be the Amular MMO which was in production, which failed after releasing a single player entry for the franchise. They certainly didn't make back their investments.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Dark and Light was a fair while ago and "the Amular MMO" was by no means an indie game. It was a new company but it was a sizeable company with lots of overheads which is why they ran out of money so quickly.
PS, I don't want to be a part of that conversation I just objected to the Amular MMO being called an indie MMO just because the marketing pitch was that it was a labour of love. Hell EA was publishing it and it had big investors to answer to.
A quick google on dark and light revealed it was a P2P themepark MMO that got took down because of a lawsuit but it was bug ridden, donno where the indie part comes in as it had investors to answer to and seems to has been an attempt to ride the MMO wave generated by WoW so you can hardly call it indie or a labour of love.
Kingdoms of Amalur in contrast was not a game linked failure, it was a management failure, read up on it, the guys in charge of 38 studios did not meet their loan payments and got their crap repoed by what I remember. The MMO never got beyond pre-alpha stage and while you could call the game indie (as it was based on KoA which was a self published game made for gamers first) and a labour of love the single player part of the game was not a financial failure (hell I think they shipped around 1 mil copies before closing) but the company was just mismanaged into the ground.
I'd agree up to a point. Those who do games for the sake of games will likely always be with us. As the available tools become capable of more and more, we are likely to see even more of that. But I suspect thats inherently self limiting.
The largest advances are likely to be in those who combine a love of what they are doing, with the connections/social skills required to attract venture funding. Money is, and will likely remain (as long as we live in a scarcity economy) one of the prime motivators for personal advancement.
Once we move beyond a scarcity economy, all bets are off. But barring a sequence of genius flashes, I doubt many of us are going to live to see that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-scarcity_economy
This is what one possible future of that type, may look like.
http://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm
But looking back, I doubt anyone could have predicted (before hand) what would happen when Blizzard started WoW, and it exploded as it did. Perhaps we will see something like that (or even more so) in the future.
“Will they stay roughly the same with the odd change happening here and there? or will they change dramatically?”
- Nothing in life stops changing unless there is a counter force to stop it changing. I see no such force apart from those of us who complain on forums and platform issues. Neither will halt that change.
“Will they integrate new peripherals such as the emerging virtual reality systems?”
- They will but come back in thirty years my which time they will have done it.
“Will a few mass appealing games continue to dominate ? or will the MMO players have more choices and consequently scatter across several niches?”
- Players have already scattered. Then they swarm locust like on a title before scattering again.
“Will the cost of producing them keep spiraling out of control? or will new technologies make them cheaper to produce?”
- Too many factors here to make a sound judgment.
“What effects will crowdfunding have on the genre?”
- Saturate it even more. One of these new gameplay style MMOs may make a killing. If so it will be the template all new kickstarter MMO’s are based on.
“Will MMOs even continue to survive with the current populations? or will growing genres such as social and mobile games make them endangered?”
- They already are endangered, Social and Mobile gaming is already having a negative impact.
“What do people expect from the future from MMOs?”
More of the same, that’s how life goes.
Never out the gate...
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Will they stay roughly the same with the odd change happening here and there? or will they change dramatically?
They will stay the same for some time yet.
Will they integrate new peripherals such as the emerging virtual reality systems?
No. New technology cuts into which players can play the game and the focus right now is "as many players as possible."
Will a few mass appealing games continue to dominate ? or will the MMO players have more choices and consequently scatter across several niches?
I don't foresee another WoW in the near future. The MMO players today no longer seek a long term commitment from their "games."
Will the cost of producing them keep spiraling out of control? or will new technologies make them cheaper to produce?
The technology and player expectations will keep costs high. Voice acting is not cheap. Varied and deep artwork is not cheap. Each bell and whistle adds to the cost.
What effects will crowdfunding have on the genre?
I think that will fade, in time.
Will MMOs even continue to survive with the current populations? or will growing genres such as social and mobile games make them endangered?
That is a good question. Not many MMOs released in the past 10 years have actually shut down. Somehow, they are making money. Social and mobile gaming, to me, is a "shiny new thingie" that will dull when their limitations become apparent. Look at mobile games right now. Are there many kinds of games that aren't a basic re-hash of old 8 bit console/arcade games? Sure, they look prettier, but you still basically jump and shoot things.
What do people expect from the future from MMOs?
Not much, really. MMOs will be produced to please as many players as possible which means they won't please many players at all. There will be F2P games galore where players will jump from game to game to game and any one game's community will suffer. The main thought in most player's minds will still be "me first" for quite some time to come.
MMOs have lost their roleplaying aspect. Most players today don't want it. *They* want to be the hero, not their character. Most players break every game down to bare numbers and do the math to get the best, most efficient results. That is the attitude for winning and has its place, but not in RPGs.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
And what about games that didn't shut down but never recouped their development costs and so were sold off one or more times (eventually they did make money but not for the original team and only after the buyer got them for a bargain).
Istaria and FE come to mind for starters, probably many more, Ryzom perhaps.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR