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Ideas for Stealth Mechanics
Tumblebutz
Member UncommonPosts: 322
Assuming Stealth will be in the game, at least in some way, what would your suggestions for the Stealth Mechanics be?
Perhaps a mechanic like the following:
-"Scout" archetypes could have increased foot speed while visible (not a group effect) in order to reach enemy territory and actually scout enemy forces.
(OR If certain terrain slows movement of basic classes, "Scout" archetypes can move freely through it (rather than having enhanced movement.))
-"Scout" archetypes could camouflage themselves after standing still for some amount of time (perhaps several seconds) and remain stealthed until they moved. Maybe their stealth actually increases over time(?)
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
RED IS DEAD!
Comments
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
Gut it and make it like shadowbane or don't put it in at all. If it was like it was in daoc or numerous other games I played, its a crutch for those that need an advantage. Shadowbane was the only game I've ever played with stealth that it was strategic. You had to be good to be a thief or assasin and especially a scout. The scouts in that game did next to no damage, but could track everyone regardless of stealth and could press a button to pop all stealthers in an aoe radius. That lead to cat and mouse fights. On my initial server I knew the name of every single scout worth a shit and they got paid for any non guild services. Good ones were few and far between. Conversely I knew maybe 1 or 2 assasin/thief on whatever server I played. Thats because the majority had the usual crutch mentality/skills and got hunted and destroyed by good scouts and groups. The few that were good knew how to deceive, play cat and mouse with the scout if you will.
The bottom line unless there are hard, and I do mean HARD, counters to stealth it will be overpowered. I'm talking so hard that most people won't want to role them. Those that do and stick it out will be server/realm known with good reason. IMO thats the way stealth should be.
Here's an idea:
Perma-stealth that after 30 sec drains your life slowly until you reach 50% hp. When you destealth there is a 30 sec cooldown. That means you can use perma-stealth to get away from full groups/zergs but you can't use it offensively against other stealthers/soloers. Stealth should give you a small speed boost though so you can stop groups from messing with you.
Although perma-stealth as it was done in DAoC is fine as well. And no PA doesn't need a nerf
C) Craft rogue class lore to reflect the fact that they have invisibility.
D) Realize that maybe stealth doesn't work within the framework of your design model and let the niche-picking commence, which is inevitable anyway.
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
If stealth is in the game it needs to be counterable and have limits, no pop invis and run around at your leisure like most mmo's.
I really would love to see stealth treated more like it is in single player games, like the Thief series, Metal Gear Solid or Splinter cell. Where stealthy characters could use the environment more, where darkness was a friend, using shadows, hiding in logical places, etc.
It'd be sweet if stealth players could climb trees and use them to "hide" in, or perhaps have little piles of brush/foilage which certain classes can utilize to hide in, this would make soooooooo much more logical sense then the usual "pop invis and run around" style.
Also have a type of distraction tools, like smoke bombs, if they are caught they can pop it and then try to flee.
Bascially I'd just like to see stealth classes have to play well....stealthly, like in the games I mentioned. That "felt" good to sneak around in those games, it made sense, and it worked well. Using shadows, making as little noise as possible, etc.
However if it does go the more traditional "invis" route, here are a few idea's :
1. Make stealth distance based. Imagine for example a "bubble" around the stealthed person, anyone outside of this "detection" range doens't see them, but once someone is close enough they can be seen. This would allow for scouts to scout around and people not to see them from a distance, however if they get close to someone they are spotted.
2. Make stealth movement based. Like <a data-cke-saved-href="http://www.mmorpg.com/profile.cfm/username/Tumblebutz"; href="http://www.mmorpg.com/profile.cfm/username/Tumblebutz"; title="View information about Tumblebutz" suhlink"="">Tumblebutz mentioned, if they are still, they are stealthed, but once they move around they become unstealthed.
3. Have anti-stealth mechanics for some other classes, such as scouts vs assassin's, you could have scouts with ian ability to "detect" hidding players and such at a longer distance then other classes.
Make stealth real realm utility like Shadowbane scout. Fast runner, long range track, bow or melee(really bad damage), stealth. would actually play a stealth class like that. You would die if you attack anyone 1on1 but can provide crucial inteligence to your realm. Enemy numbers, priority targets etc. Also Bow should have some group friendly debuffs and mele scouts would kill ranged scouts while being easy prety for everyone else.
Maybe Viking scout will be a melee class, Arturian a bow, and hibs get some magical middle ground scout.
+1
stealth?
How about we have stealth like it was in the BEGINNING beta phase of warhammer online
if you are directly in front of a persons cone of view you will be seen...
stealth drains ENdurance/action points per sec so its not permanant.
PERIOD.
let stealth be something you use in combat to close the gap.
no perma invisibility
I am ok with archer classes being able to spec high in a tree for "stealth while standing still"
but no way am I down for perma invisibility and stealth zergs and the like. no wa
It is important to distinguish stealth from opening damage. I don't think it was stealth that annoyed non-stealthers, it was the high initial damage output.
As an unbuffed bow hunter I died frequently and quickly to Perf.Artery openings, and even when I respecced to sword-melee and got my own buffbot it hurt to take that first stab in the face, so I am sympathetic to those who get/got anooyed with stealthers. On the same note, I got annoyed with hib-casters who stun-nuked me to death. If my stun-immunity had lasted as long as my Purge downtime, it would be ok, but I got around it regardless and it is another discussion.
I never played Shadowbane, so I am not familiar with the class details there, but it does sound like it has some intriguing aspects to it. What needs to be addressed is how to reward Shadowbane-type scouts for participating in RvR. DAoC initially gave out RPs strictly based upon damage and kills. It evolved to reward participation in sieges, but those rewards were very limited compared to damage/kill RPs given.
My stealther play-style was mostly to roam and scout for Midgard. Many nights I never received a single RP, but I didn't mind as long as Midgard dominated. I also felt an obligation to participate in sieges, and enjoyed those as well. And the question that rises is what role a Shadowbane-type scout will fill during sieges, if it has no/little damage to offer?
Is it possible to create some sort of forward observer abilities that rewards these scouts for "picking high-value targets" for realm mates? Is the game designed to give them other opportunities, and reward them for their efforts?
Perhaps scouts could influence the "maps" in the game? So a scout that sees enemies, can inform others of where enemies locations are, the direction of their movement etc.
Not real-time up to date movement but a delayed thing (so it would work more like an actual scout, and not a "radar."
Where scouts can actually scout, find enemies, and then after so long that maps of their allies shows the last known positionof the enemy , direction they were heading (just like a little arrow or such that you'd expect to be marked ona map).
It would work based on only the time the scout had them in his vision, so say if a scout looks at an enemy, then turns around and leaves or such and the enemy decides to go in another direction, then it would not show that on the map (because the scout didn't see it).
Then whenever any enemies that the scout saw are killed/take damage, the scout gets rewarded for it, even if he himself didn't do all the damage or anything.
This would have to be balanced of course.
Perhaps limit it to scouts within your guild or gorup as well, so it's not like the scouts give out information to every single person rather, just people within their guild or gorup.
I'm intrigued by the idea of making stealth work better or worse depending on the surrounding geography and time of day. You'd still want to be able to stealth in the open field during the day but your outline would be visible from a longer distance and you'd have a higher chance to have your stealth popped when a NPC or player passed by.
The most annoying thing about stealth in DAOC was that a stealther could kill somebody then re-stealth within seconds and get away. Having a longer re-stealth timer than in that game is a must.
I would want some class or two to be able to cast medium duration stealth revealing fields that would act like the Convoker ML ability in DAOC that I can't remember the name of. Perhaps there could also be crafted potions that increased anybody's ability to detect stealthers for a short time.
I am okay with stealthers having high damage attacks from stealth if they are balanced so that without using those attacks they have a very difficult time killing non-casters 1 on 1. I would prefer they don't have a stun as part of those attacks.
Also if stealthers are given high evasion to balance their light armor, it needs to be balanced so that they aren't unhittable by heavy melee using 2-handed weapons.
Do those things and I would be fine with stealth being perma-invisiblity like in DAOC.
DAOC Live (inactive): R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R6 Healer
As I posted on another thread:
"I have one thing to add to the stealther topic:
Back in the day of DAoC there were fairly few stealth players compared to overall visible classes because, imo, stealth classes were a pain in the ass to level to 50 and fully equip them.
According to MJ's statements, new players in CU will be able to join RvR fairly quickly and they will be viable as well.
What do you think can be done to make playing an assassin harder than other classes to not let them overpopulate, as we don't have the PvE 'hurdle' now anymore?"
This has an easy answer although one that is hard to do in practice: class balance. Make the assassin good enough but not so good that you can smack your head against the keyboard playing one and still kill anybody. Then you'll get a reasonable number of them just like any class.
DAOC Live (inactive): R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R6 Healer
Might be worth considering to split types of stealth based on classes. Like standard stealth (invis) for Thieves, disguise type stealth for Assassins and camouflage type stealth for Scout/Rangers?
Just a thought really.
I am solidly behind using terrain and what's around you to improve your chances at remaining undetected. Movement should also be considered. I like the time of day being a factor as well.
i think stealthing should be in but:
1. it should be hard to remind stealthed (e.g. you would have to stay in shadows of things, between them you would unstealth)
2. you should be hit by spells/projectiles/melee swings in your direction even if the "attacked" doesnt see you
3. aoe would always hit you (btw i think aoes (at least) should have "friendly fire") if you are in target area.
a nice stealth mechanic for pvp would be camouflage, not invisibility. A skill that lets the character blend with the environmet depending on the textures you are standing on or the wall / tree you are close to. A sustained skill so you can move around but when you move your character would have a distorted transparency as you move on / near ground / wall textures. When you stand still the camo then fully kicks in and you basically become one with the ground (or wall), but still can be tracked if the player looks carefully. Not a 100% blend but good enough to trick players that dont pay attention to their environments.
EDIT: also like someone said before, in the shadows is also more effective the blending with nature camouflage
-I think it's kind of disingenuous for those of you who don't like stealth to suggest it be removed from the game design. Recall that in DAoC, Stealth came in the form a spec line which offered ONE ability: STEALTH. Speccing to 30 or so in the Stealth line cost a LOT of spec points. Stealthers didn't get Stealth for free, Tanks didn't get Shield for free and Casters didn't get nukes for free... errr... wait a second...
I don't like casters, but I certainly wouldn't suggest the game not include them. The issue is how to make Stealth USEFUL in the GROUPvGROUP setting as opposed to the 1v1 setting, EFFECTIVE in that it remains a viable spec option not rendered useless by some "counter" ability, and BALANCED in that it does not become a dominant force with no way to mitigate it. It is certainly the case that in many (or all(?)) other games, one or more of these components were missing. Let's give MJ the benefit of the doubt and hope that he can include all three.
-I'm going out on a limb here and suggesting that the Assassin Archetype be scrapped. For our purposes, let's define the Assassin Archetype as a high stealth melee class with a large opening strike (dependent on stealth) and possibly the use of DoTs in the form of poisons or bleeds. I believe it is extremely difficult to create a Stealth Mechanic which is USEFUL, EFFECTIVE and BALANCED while coupling it with that huge opening strike and large DoTs. The DAoC implementation of the Assassin was certainly never USEFUL and some would argue it was not BALANCED.
A redesign of the archetype may be the way to go... perhaps more like a Blademaster with a highly limited Stealth mechanic only useful for reaching the rear flanks of a battle, not for opening up on a caster with a nuclear warhead-like strike.
-The Shadowbane Scout is a terrible idea, imo (I know because I played one... it sucked.) This option would certainly not be EFFECTIVE and I'd argue it was not BALANCED in that the class just couldn't compete with other classes. Seriously, who wants to be involved in RvR without actually participating in RvR?
-I would propose a single Scout Archetype with the following characteristics:
A skill line/tree/path which provides increased movement ability while out of combat for the Scout, only.
A skill line/tree/path which provides a Stealth Mechanic NOT INTENDED FOR COMBAT or to create a large opening strike, but rather to gain a visual (and perhaps positional) advantage on the enemy... perhaps these two lines could be combined into one.
A pair of compteting skill lines, one ranged DPS, the other melee DPS, which could not both be pursued to great effect.
Perhaps a mechanic inheirant to this class only which allowed for the use of a wide range of weaponry and armor, but reduced the effectiveness of the Stealth/Speed abilities with heavier weapons and armor.
I believe something like this could be EFFECTIVE and BALANCED. But the game design, itself, must provide for the USEFUL part.
-I believe MJ mentioned a functioning Day/Night system(?) (Did I hallucinate that?) If this were the case, I would love to see a Stealth Mechanic that suffered in the day and excelled in the night.
-I would love a mechanic that was affected by terrain. Imagine how the stealth dynamic could be affected by the mutable terrain MJ described in the post regarding elements of Chaos!
-I do NOT want to see in-game maps with flames, stars, crossed blades, sirens, smiley faces or any other type of indication of battle. Let Scouts do their thing!
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
RED IS DEAD!
I like the useful, effective, balanced approach to stealth. Honestly, I don't want to see in-game maps at all. To me, they are a modern day crutch that take a lot from games. Make printable maps available, and let people learn to navigate. It wasn't that hard back in the early days.
One problem I can foresee with the mutually exclusive melee/ranged lines is the use of bows in melee. I enjoyed the fact that I could not shoot my bow when someone was hitting me, and it required a bit of skill to know when to switch to melee. I don't want to see archers using their bows and switching automatically to melee like they do in LotRO.
The big question regarding opening strikes is the continuation of the fight: Should the stealther be so soft that without a solid first strike he/she will retty much always die? Should they have some escape ability if the dices are against them? Should the softness be weak follow up damage or little survivability? How will buffs and dots fit into the picture? It is a lot of things to consider, but hopefully CSE pulls it off.
IMO:
1) stealthers should be able to avoid full groups / zergs / fights that they cannot possibly win [modified permastealth]
2) they shouldn't be able to stealthzerg (solo or duo at most) [weaker stealth the more ally stealthers are nearby as someone else suggested]
3) there should be incentives/bonuses to destealth / not be in stealth 100% of the time. [-hp or -dmg after destealth if you spent a long time stealthed]
4) there should be ways a skilled stealther can find other stealthers (I had an infil buddy who mastered this skill in daoc) [the more time you spend stealthed the weaker your stealth and detection + after destealth there is a 20-30sec cooldown so you can't spam it]
5) having a better ping shouldn't be a major factor in stealth fights [separate EU/US servers with great pings for all hopefully]
In-game maps are fine, it depends entirely on how they are presented. Some games back in the day had maps that worked more like real maps,t hey only showed the general landscape and other things. There were no waypoints, or quest markers, etc. you had to read the map and then decide where you were going to go and clues to where you should go.
UO even went as far as having a cartogpher skill to make maps and things yourself, as well as "decoding" treasure maps, maps for sailing, etc.
Having an in-game map can add a function to Scouts with the ability to influence the maps of people within their group/guild.
Don't misunderstand me... I have no problem with an in-game map. I just don't want a map that shows where the action is, no flashing crossed blades, no flaming buildings, no GPS type notifications... just a plain ol' map.
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
RED IS DEAD!
Very simply make it so that stealth, invis, camo, whatever has a chance to fail. Fail=everyone can see you. You have to reactivate the skill to reenter stealth. Whether you are alone or in a group of enemies. This part would have no bearing on who is around you. Maybe at 10% chance to turn completely visiable every 15seconds. Consider it the "I stepped on a stick chance"
That chance could go up or down depending on environment. In an enemy keep, outside in the courtyard in the middle of the day, maybe 70% chance to drop stealth every 15secs.
The point is to cause the risk vs reward equation to play in a players mind. "That is a lot of open space to cover, in order to attack that enemy.... I probaby have a 50/50 chance of getting to him without popping."
If you are in good position, and don't have a long ways to travel without cover stealth could be very effective. If you are going to try to jump out of a surronded keep in the middle of the day to go flank the attackers healers... you would have a pretty low chance.
In DAoC everytime your walked through gate you were gambling with your life. A stealther standing in the middle of the road in full daylight shouldn't have a 100% sureity of staying hidden.
As a shaman (a short shaman) I hid behind trees as entire relic zergs ran by. It isn't hard to use cover effectively on a enemy that doesn't know you are around. The combination of stealth with cover should be preferred to having stealth be so effective stealthers have no reason to seek cover.
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Certain classes could also invest in uncovering stealth, but for only themselves. In this case it could be like the old DAoC. If you have the right skill you have an easier time of seeing stealthers, but you didn't pass sight to the rest of your team.
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I do like the idea of the more stealther in one area the less effective their stealth becomes. But I think my idea above covers that. If all stealther have a flat chance to pop at of stealth, if there was a group of eight stealthers that would be a 80% chance for at least one of them to pop out every 15seconds. That would be enough to alert anyone around.
Someone earlier mentioned the Thief games, where stealth was very much dependent of where you were and how much light there was.
I've never been a fan of invisibility in broad daylight and no cover. It doesn't make sense for non-magic users.
Also, climbing trees. Oh lord, how I'd love to be able to climb trees in a game! Imagine, a treetop ambush, a la Robin Hood!
The army passing underneath and suddenly a hail of arrows and people dropping all around them to attack. Wonderful!