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Hypocrisy of faction pride in TESO

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  • Vorgarag109Vorgarag109 Navarre, FLPosts: 13Member
    Originally posted by Maelwydd
    Originally posted by azarhal

    If Skyrim was an MMO, you would have had to join the Imperial or Stormcloaks at the start of the game and it would have had Open PvP everywhere.

    Please explain why you think that is a neccessity.

    What mechanic is forcing this faction choice option to be unavailable in an MMO?

    Because I cannot think of any reason why, if you were to try and faithfully move the Skyrim over to an MMO environment, you woul dneed to suddenly remove the choice from the player.

    So what mechanic, system limitation or other fly in the ointment do you think is unsurmountable when considering the design of an MMO?

    I Agree Their is No Reason why such limitation's would need to be implemented just because TES became a MMO. Infact I think the Fact a Player can or could have been Neutral should have been Emphasized if the game was actually staying true to giving Player's Freedom and Choice of how they want to play their Role in the world.

    Would of Loved to have explored the entire world even if i couldn't have interacted with all of the NPC's due to the lack of being a member of their Respective Faction or Alignment. in some cases it would have been fun to see how some of the NPC's would have reacted to a Neutral Player giving more background onto the said Faction.

     

     

  • sapphensapphen Madison, NCPosts: 911Member Common
    Originally posted by Vorgarag109

    Would of Loved to have explored the entire world even if i couldn't have interacted with all of the NPC's due to the lack of being a member of their Respective Faction or Alignment. in some cases it would have been fun to see how some of the NPC's would have reacted to a Neutral Player giving more background onto the said Faction.

    That's kind of what I was thinking.  Instead of locking factions, NPCs would react to you differently depending on your race and their faction.  For instance; if you create a Brenton you would begin in a Daggerfall controlled area.  All the NPCs would be trying to recruit you to their army.  When you leave the area and go to another faction they may treat you with hostility.  You would have to do a series of quests to earn their trust in order to join their faction.

  • HeretiqueHeretique Posts: 1,101Member Uncommon
    One thing that bothers me the most about this game is being able to join multiple guilds, still think it's a retarded feature.

    Originally posted by salsa41
    are you have problem ?

  • RukushinRukushin Jackson, NJPosts: 82Member Common
    Originally posted by sapphen
    Originally posted by Vorgarag109

    Would of Loved to have explored the entire world even if i couldn't have interacted with all of the NPC's due to the lack of being a member of their Respective Faction or Alignment. in some cases it would have been fun to see how some of the NPC's would have reacted to a Neutral Player giving more background onto the said Faction.

    That's kind of what I was thinking.  Instead of locking factions, NPCs would react to you differently depending on your race and their faction.  For instance; if you create a Brenton you would begin in a Daggerfall controlled area.  All the NPCs would be trying to recruit you to their army.  When you leave the area and go to another faction they may treat you with hostility.  You would have to do a series of quests to earn their trust in order to join their faction.

    Exactly what I would have wanted as well. Too bad we wont get it.

  • sapphensapphen Madison, NCPosts: 911Member Common
    Originally posted by Heretique
    One thing that bothers me the most about this game is being able to join multiple guilds, still think it's a retarded feature.

    Guilds are probably gonna be account wide like GW2.    While it works well for GW2, I think it's gonna be kind of retarded in ESO.

     

    Originally posted by Rukushin
    Originally posted by sapphen

    That's kind of what I was thinking.  Instead of locking factions, NPCs would react to you differently depending on your race and their faction.  For instance; if you create a Brenton you would begin in a Daggerfall controlled area.  All the NPCs would be trying to recruit you to their army.  When you leave the area and go to another faction they may treat you with hostility.  You would have to do a series of quests to earn their trust in order to join their faction.

    Exactly what I would have wanted as well. Too bad we wont get it.

    I know, I need to get over it I guess.  I don't mean to offend anyone with what I'm about to say but I kind of feel sorry for ESO.
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Heretique
    One thing that bothers me the most about this game is being able to join multiple guilds, still think it's a retarded feature.

    Ya this is a huge problem in GW2, people are members of many guilds and all of them are ghost towns because it shows you have 40 people online but only 3 are reping your guild so 37 members dont see guild chat. It makes it really hard to get to know people and get random events running and working. I really hope ESO changes that.


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • JetrpgJetrpg Whitehouse, OHPosts: 2,376Member

    This is wrong. This sytem the op is adressing does work .. its the best builder of faction pride there is in games. We have seen this from previous games.

    You don't just roll alts to see other things in faction based pvp you roll alts after you have played your side for a while, everything gets boring after a while, the seperate side allows new experinces and settings in the same game. There is no better system i know of than such a system in a themepark game. IF so please example better systems (contested worlds don't count they create pointless ganks and largely just leave me alone mentalities... not faction pride or dislike of the enemy eg. wow.)

    Now sandbox is different but its not sandbox and that wasn't the agrument.

    Quick point, teso issues are not this infact nothing of this even matters teso's issue is its TES combat system which honestly isn't robust enough for an mmorpg.

    "Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine

  • JetrpgJetrpg Whitehouse, OHPosts: 2,376Member
    Originally posted by sodade21

    to let alts on game is one thing but a game that forcing you create alts to see the world thats bad imo.

    What WoW did perfect on that formula was to let anyone be able to explore everything...ofc the area of the opposite faction will be more hostile at least mob wise (if the server is pve) ,and if the server is pvp u are more likley to be attacked on other faction lands...but noone forced u to not be able go a see that lands anyway.

    Wow for example has casulize many things and that sucked but some things really did very right and one was this. freedom on some key elements like this.

    Rofl. there is no faction pride in wow, so its what they did wrong. We rarely got any real pvp in wow but for the start of the game and when they gave rewards for leader kills... which wasn't much about the pvp anyway.

    So yeah great example to prove your point wrong.

    Games where you hate your enemies are not one you have to exp along side (even if flagged) it designmitizes the other factions and teaches avoidence not hostility.

    "Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jetrpg

    This is wrong. This sytem the op is adressing does work .. its the best builder of faction pride there is in games. We have seen this from previous games.

    You don't just roll alts to see other things in faction based pvp you roll alts after you have played your side for a while, everything gets boring after a while, the seperate side allows new experinces and settings in the same game. There is no better system i know of than such a system in a themepark game. IF so please example better systems (contested worlds don't count they create pointless ganks and largely just leave me alone mentalities... not faction pride or dislike of the enemy eg. wow.)

    Now sandbox is different but its not sandbox and that wasn't the agrument.

    Quick point, teso issues are not this infact nothing of this even matters teso's issue is its TES combat system which honestly isn't robust enough for an mmorpg.

    May work and you are right but in my 13 years of MMOing I have seen the best of the best when it came to faction pride. DAoC has never been out done on this. For faction based PvP they have been the standard every MMO has been judged on since. If ESO only reaches 50% of the level DAoC has done, ESO will be the best faction PvP game to come out since DAoC. ESO is shooting for the gold standard here and many of you are bashing them for it lol.


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • FindarielFindariel SomewherePosts: 216Member
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Heretique
    One thing that bothers me the most about this game is being able to join multiple guilds, still think it's a retarded feature.

    Ya this is a huge problem in GW2, people are members of many guilds and all of them are ghost towns because it shows you have 40 people online but only 3 are reping your guild so 37 members dont see guild chat. It makes it really hard to get to know people and get random events running and working. I really hope ESO changes that.

    Yes agreed, in my experience the muiltiple guild stuff in GW2 wasn't working at all. All those people representing other guilds and all the empty ghost guilds with so many players that quit playing. It was really saddening. Not only because it gave the impression that the game was getting rather empty and you didn't see any chat from your other guilds - but most guilds seemed to have no reason for existence at all.

    I never understood why GW2 left the idea of alliances from GW, which was a great addition to guilds. While people could still be in their smaller or bigger unique snowflake guilds, alliances and alliance chat really facilitated finding groups, getting answers to your questions and such. It really broadened your social in-game world and was FAR superior to the "multiple guild" failure of GW2. 

    Hopefully, TESO will have only multiple guilds to enable you to have a character in one guild for each faction, not the GW2 stuff. And more importantly: I hope TESO will have alliances.

  • nate1980nate1980 Evans, GAPosts: 1,829Member
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Jetrpg

    This is wrong. This sytem the op is adressing does work .. its the best builder of faction pride there is in games. We have seen this from previous games.

    You don't just roll alts to see other things in faction based pvp you roll alts after you have played your side for a while, everything gets boring after a while, the seperate side allows new experinces and settings in the same game. There is no better system i know of than such a system in a themepark game. IF so please example better systems (contested worlds don't count they create pointless ganks and largely just leave me alone mentalities... not faction pride or dislike of the enemy eg. wow.)

    Now sandbox is different but its not sandbox and that wasn't the agrument.

    Quick point, teso issues are not this infact nothing of this even matters teso's issue is its TES combat system which honestly isn't robust enough for an mmorpg.

    May work and you are right but in my 13 years of MMOing I have seen the best of the best when it came to faction pride. DAoC has never been out done on this. For faction based PvP they have been the standard every MMO has been judged on since. If ESO only reaches 50% of the level DAoC has done, ESO will be the best faction PvP game to come out since DAoC. ESO is shooting for the gold standard here and many of you are bashing them for it lol.

    DAoC was my first MMORPG too, so I know what you mean. However, the community has changed. When DAoC came out, it came out with a thick manual where you could read up on each realm and each class. People put in research into which faction and class they will roll with, and they pretty much stuck with that Realm for a very long period of time. The community back then was focused on grouping and building a community, which is vastly different than the community of today.

    The community of today is focused on the "self." They care more about the amount of kills they get (K/D ratio), the amount and quality of gear they have, and trolling forums and general chat channels. They prefer to solo to max level and to do so by grinding quest hubs. Games just aren't the same anymore.

    So I assume that in ESO, the majority of people will care most about rushing through the PvE content to reach max level ASAP, to gear up ASAP, and then PvP. I also assume that if one side is terribly outmatched either through skill or through numbers, instead of banding together with the other underdog, they'll just reroll the stronger faction. That's the community we deal with now. So using old examples and arguments to justify the use of old community centered mechanics on the modern day crap community just won't work. 

    Afterall, for all of those with eyes to see and read, we know what sort of people populate this genre now and a new game with good or even different mechanics isn't going to change it. Faction pride just won't happen the way people assume it will. It hasn't happened with any faction-based game since DAoC released, and almost all MMORPG's released since then has had factions. Locking people into the racial homelands isn't going to magically make people proud of their faction.

  • MaelwyddMaelwydd CrawleyPosts: 1,123Member
    Originally posted by nate1980

     

    I also assume that if one side is terribly outmatched either through skill or through numbers, instead of banding together with the other underdog, they'll just reroll the stronger faction.

    Or as the designers of the game call it "Exploring the entire continent of Tamriel by creating alts".

  • GravargGravarg Harker Heights, TXPosts: 3,332Member Uncommon
    I have no problem with this set up.  I know it's not very TESish to limit people in this way, but I can see why they did it this way.  If you have a bunch of capped level people running around with level 1s of the opposite faction, nothing good will come of that. You'll have the level 1s quitting and no new players will ever come.  The capped players will run out of level 1s to kill, and they'll quit... soon you'll have an empty game.  I know your next thought is, "well old games had this".  The problem is you can't have an open world pvp game like in the old days, because players today have no honor, and you have no guilds that band together and police the areas. So you end up with the above mentioned situation.
  • MortisRexMortisRex Columbia, TNPosts: 348Member Common
    Quick, everyone grab a bat, I think I saw a hoof twitch. Look, this same point has been made over and over and over. We get  it, the game is not being developed the way you want. No matter how many dissertations  bemoaning the developers rejecting your superior experience in bringing mmo to market, you are not going to change it. Either learn to live with it or find a new game. Understand, your ongoing griping means nothing. The ip holders have dictated the features and their opinions are what matters. 
  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    Originally posted by MortisRex
    Quick, everyone grab a bat, I think I saw a hoof twitch. Look, this same point has been made over and over and over. We get  it, the game is not being developed the way you want. No matter how many dissertations  bemoaning the developers rejecting your superior experience in bringing mmo to market, you are not going to change it. Either learn to live with it or find a new game. Understand, your ongoing griping means nothing. The ip holders have dictated the features and their opinions are what matters. 

     

    Exactly, the game has been designed from the ground up as a 3 faction realm vs realm focused game. If this doesn't appeal to you, no amount of complaining or entitled demands will change it now. Just sit back and wait for the next single player Elder Scrolls.

  • MaelwyddMaelwydd CrawleyPosts: 1,123Member
    Originally posted by MortisRex
     The ip holders have dictated the features and their opinions are what matters. 

    Actually I think their potential buyers opinions are what matter becasue if the game doesn't make a profit the developers will suffer because of it. Seeing as I fall into their catchment area 2 times...a TES player and an MMO player I think their have failed to find a good design. People will voice their opinions here and on other sites irrespective of if you like it or not.

     

  • MaelwyddMaelwydd CrawleyPosts: 1,123Member
    Originally posted by evilastro
     

     

    Exactly, the game has been designed from the ground up as a 3 faction realm vs realm focused game. If this doesn't appeal to you, no amount of complaining or entitled demands will change it now. Just sit back and wait for the next single player Elder Scrolls.

    Actually a 3 faction RvR game would be cool...if they didn't butcher, uneccessarily, the things about a TES game that make it a TES game.

  • MortisRexMortisRex Columbia, TNPosts: 348Member Common
    Originally posted by Maelwydd
    Originally posted by MortisRex
     The ip holders have dictated the features and their opinions are what matters. 

    Actually I think their potential buyers opinions are what matter becasue if the game doesn't make a profit the developers will suffer because of it. Seeing as I fall into their catchment area 2 times...a TES player and an MMO player I think their have failed to find a good design. People will voice their opinions here and on other sites irrespective of if you like it or not.

     

    What are you even trying to say? I play MMOs and I have every Elder Scroll and Fallout game, so I guess my opinion means as much as yours, which is funny, because it means absolutely nothing as far as the design decisions have already been set in stone. I don't care if people voice their opinions. I'm not telling anyone to shut up. Quit trying to be a victim and putting words in my mouth, that makes you a liar. I simply pointed out that beating this dead horse is absolutely futile. Furthermore, the IP holders are who decide how the game is designed, not you and not me. You can argue that point all you want, but you're still wrong. Bethesda/Zenimax make those decisions. Not you, not me. Get over it. It does not matter one bit what you think about their decision. It does not matter one bit what I think of their decision. They have made their decision and have planned and designed around a 3 faction PvP system. That's what is going to happen.

    How many Elder Scroll games have you programmed? How many hit games do you have under your belt? What does your portfolio look like as far as professional success in the gaming industry? I'm humble enough to expect that professional game designers and programmers know better than myself their market. How is it that you and so many other people that think because you play games, you are somehow more knowledgeable than the professionals that create them? Do you think because you take a Tylenol for a headache, your're more qualified to discuss the efficacy of acetaminophen than your pharmacist? Do you think because you drive your car, you're more qualified to discuss the intricacies on an electronic fuel injection system than your mechanic? Biased participation in an activity does not give you magical powers of expertise in that activity.

  • PyrateLVPyrateLV Las Vegas, NVPosts: 1,096Member Common
    Originally posted by Maelwydd
    Originally posted by evilastro
     

     

    Exactly, the game has been designed from the ground up as a 3 faction realm vs realm focused game. If this doesn't appeal to you, no amount of complaining or entitled demands will change it now. Just sit back and wait for the next single player Elder Scrolls.

    Actually a 3 faction RvR game would be cool...if they didn't butcher, uneccessarily, the things about a TES game that make it a TES game.

    I agree on both counts. I much prefer 3 sided PvP over 2 way.

    However I very much dislike the fact that they are being so restrictive to the openess of TES simply to further that 3 sided system.

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  • sapphensapphen Madison, NCPosts: 911Member Common
    Originally posted by PyrateLV
    Originally posted by Maelwydd
    Originally posted by evilastro

    Exactly, the game has been designed from the ground up as a 3 faction realm vs realm focused game. If this doesn't appeal to you, no amount of complaining or entitled demands will change it now. Just sit back and wait for the next single player Elder Scrolls.

    Actually a 3 faction RvR game would be cool...if they didn't butcher, uneccessarily, the things about a TES game that make it a TES game.

    I agree on both counts. I much prefer 3 sided PvP over 2 way.

    However I very much dislike the fact that they are being so restrictive to the openess of TES simply to further that 3 sided system.

    I agree with both posters.  I kind of like the 3 faction RvR but disappointed at the way they applied it.

    If they was really thinking creatively, I would accept 10 faction RvR (all races including molag).  Each faction would have their own goals, domestic and abroad ~ your race would be your faction.  You'd be able to ally yourself with other races or 'join together' to take down a more dominate faction.

  • FindarielFindariel SomewherePosts: 216Member
    Originally posted by nate1980

    However, the community has changed. The community back then was focused on grouping and building a community, which is vastly different than the community of today.

    The community of today is focused on the "self." They care more about the amount of kills they get (K/D ratio), the amount and quality of gear they have, and trolling forums and general chat channels. They prefer to solo to max level and to do so by grinding quest hubs. Games just aren't the same anymore.

    Well one could wonder though what changed more: the players or the games? If here used to be a good amount of players with a strong sense of community  and teamplay, why wouldn't there be now?

    Of course there's players that like to rush though a game within a few months in a semi-single player fashion and come back a year later to do the same with the expansion, like GW2. But does that mean there's not a lot of players who actually want a game with longevity, where they can keep playing with the same people for years? I'd say there is.

  • SoMuchMassSoMuchMass New York, NYPosts: 548Member
    Originally posted by jedensuscg

    Zenimax is developing a system that PROMOTES the creation of alts, unless you want to forgo seeing the rest of the world, and yet calls this fostering realm pride?  Would not having pride for your realm mean you create alts ON THAT REALM?

    I fail to see their explanation for anything else but utter bullshit and propaganda to explain away the fact it's far easier to just code a closed system then a true open system that TES is best known for.  Of all the way Matt Firor could have put in it beloved RvRvR, he chose the one that LEAST OF ALL promote faction pride, as most people will want to explore the entire land of Tamriel, that until today, have only been able to see in bits and peices from the different games.

    I actually laughed out loud at this post.  It would have been WAY easier for them to have one faction and let players go where ever they want.  They went out of their way to make three faction zones completely seperate which is why harder and time consuming.

    Secondly, the reason is not making alts.  It is about identity.  You see where you fit in the world.  Your faction and your enemy.  Alts is a side benefit.  DAoC didn't have three realms because of "alts".

    The funniest thing is when I hear players talk about "freedom" especially in themepark MMOs or RPGs.  You have no freedom, the Devs are your Gods.  They pretty much dictate what you do and when you do it.  I cringe when I hear terms like this thrown out.

    People are so used to the norm they can't accept something new.  Most of the MMO population hasn't played DAoC, they don't know what it is like.  They are so used to games like WoW and other games that they are shocked when other MMOs don't follow that path.

    I am happy to see something different from the norm.  Oh, and I plan to role one faction.  And represent that fact, and destory all others in other factions.

  • SoMuchMassSoMuchMass New York, NYPosts: 548Member
    Originally posted by Maelwydd
    Originally posted by evilastro
     

     

    Exactly, the game has been designed from the ground up as a 3 faction realm vs realm focused game. If this doesn't appeal to you, no amount of complaining or entitled demands will change it now. Just sit back and wait for the next single player Elder Scrolls.

    Actually a 3 faction RvR game would be cool...if they didn't butcher, uneccessarily, the things about a TES game that make it a TES game.

    What makes a TES game a TES game is the lore, period.  The devs can make a fighthing game with TES lore and it would be a TES game.  A TES game is what Bethesda says is a TES game not what you say is a TES game.

  • SoMuchMassSoMuchMass New York, NYPosts: 548Member
    Originally posted by MortisRex
    Quick, everyone grab a bat, I think I saw a hoof twitch. Look, this same point has been made over and over and over. We get  it, the game is not being developed the way you want. No matter how many dissertations  bemoaning the developers rejecting your superior experience in bringing mmo to market, you are not going to change it. Either learn to live with it or find a new game. Understand, your ongoing griping means nothing. The ip holders have dictated the features and their opinions are what matters. 

    Exactly.

    Not every game has to be for you, obviously some don't like the way TESO is designed.  So don't play it, play the MMOs you like, simple.

  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by SoMuchMass
    Originally posted by Maelwydd Originally posted by evilastro  
      Exactly, the game has been designed from the ground up as a 3 faction realm vs realm focused game. If this doesn't appeal to you, no amount of complaining or entitled demands will change it now. Just sit back and wait for the next single player Elder Scrolls.
    Actually a 3 faction RvR game would be cool...if they didn't butcher, uneccessarily, the things about a TES game that make it a TES game.
    What makes a TES game a TES game is the lore, period.  The devs can make a fighthing game with TES lore and it would be a TES game.  A TES game is what Bethesda says is a TES game not what you say is a TES game.

    Bethesda-Zenimax continues to make TES games because players buy said games.

    because they like how the product is. change the product and run the risk of customer loss.

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