Maybe it's not GW2's fault, maybe it's us, the players, who have matured and the sense of immersion and fascination we had with MMOs is harder to obtain with every new game that is released...
Thats what this whole discussion points to.
the whole "immersion breaking" argument from using optonal stuff is invalid.
If you are offered option A and B, A breakes youe immersion and B doesnt, but you costantly choose A and then proceed to whine about how "A is immersion breaking"....i mean it tells more about player than the game.
Good graphics and scenery is one of the things which help immersion but it's not the only one. The other two aspects which contribute to immersion are music and story.
The lore behind the GW universe is great and I really found the story in GW1 interesting. The problem in GW2 is that there is almost no story behind it. Hearts do not deliver any story which is a huge turn off. I often stop playing MMOs when I stop reading their quest boxes. Just clicking accept and killing 10 mobs is boring to me and feels like grind. But when you find the story interesting in the quests it makes it that much more immersive. It gives you context and background to your actions. Much more immersive. EVents for the most part don't deliver any real story (except some more elaborate event chains/meta evants). Personal story is good but the fact that it happens once every 3 levels and it is uterly boring and cheesy makes it baad. I am sick of being told I am the best thing to grace Tyria since sliced bread.
Music is the other aspect. GW2 has some amazing soundtracks. They are very immersive. BUT often I hear only one track per zone and it plays only once in a while. Kinda gets lost. GW1 did this brilliantly.
Despite what people say about exclamations marks over NPCs heads, WOW was one of the most immersive MMOs I've played. GW1 did not come anywhere near the level of immersion WoW had and I find GW2 even less immersive than GW1 so yeah. Every zone in WoW had real personality behind it and it had quite a bit of story behind it. Zones like Duskwood, Burning Steppes, Ashenvale etc. were amazing and very immersive. WoW also had incredible music and sound which really made it very immersive. And I have never ever been bothered by those exclamation marks people talk about all the time. It's only since GW2 started saying how that's stupid and old school that people started having a problem with that. And it's not like GW2 got rid of that, did they? I can see that karma/heart symbol over an NPC. It's just a different shape.
Also the seamless transition between zones and no quick travel did help WoW's immersion too. I don't mind zoning and I don't see as an instant immersion breaker but seamless transitions really helps.
Originally posted by tintilinic
Originally posted by Geobardi
Maybe it's not GW2's fault, maybe it's us, the players, who have matured and the sense of immersion and fascination we had with MMOs is harder to obtain with every new game that is released...
Thats what this whole discussion points to.
the whole "immersion breaking" argument from using optonal stuff is invalid.
If you are offered option A and B, A breakes youe immersion and B doesnt, but you costantly choose A and then proceed to whine about how "A is immersion breaking"....i mean it tells more about player than the game.
This argument that if quick travel breaks your immersion, don't use it is not entirely true. That would be a fair point if there were mounts in the game. But if I don't use quick travel my only option is to walk. In WoW I could get a mount which sped things up. But then again when people suggest that ArenaNet introduce mounts, people say what's the point? The question is why not? It will give people who don't want to use quick travel an alternative.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
My biggest and most immediate issue that I had with GW2 on release when I tried to play it was that I felt it lacked immersion. Strangely, despite the polish and detail, I had rarely felt so un-immersed in a game. I think it may have had something to do with world design, character models, UI... something that I can't quite place.
Anyways, I haven't played since launch.
I'm wondering if others have had a similar experience, and can help me understand why I feel so much less connected to this game than to its prequel, for example.
For me, it lacked immersion because there is no reason why the 3 servers are fighting. The WvW is great but we are 'aware' we are fighting 2 other servers. Would've been cool if they called them dimensions or had an in-game explanation.
Maybe it's not GW2's fault, maybe it's us, the players, who have matured and the sense of immersion and fascination we had with MMOs is harder to obtain with every new game that is released...
Thats what this whole discussion points to.
the whole "immersion breaking" argument from using optonal stuff is invalid.
If you are offered option A and B, A breakes youe immersion and B doesnt, but you costantly choose A and then proceed to whine about how "A is immersion breaking"....i mean it tells more about player than the game.
This argument that if quick travel breaks your immersion, don't use it is not entirely true. That would be a fair point if there were mounts in the game. But if I don't use quick travel my only option is to walk. In WoW I could get a mount which sped things up. But then again when people suggest that ArenaNet introduce mounts, people say what's the point? The question is why not? It will give people who don't want to use quick travel an alternative.
But but but....the longer it takes its more immersive! Why would you want to speed things up? By claims here you shouldnt even run but walk everywhere. Mounts break immersion! Running breakes immersion because its not realistic that you can run all the time! And then you need to rest, i mean walking across half the world and then just jump in in the battle? You need couple days rest at least! Want me to go further ;P
Oh, and BTW, most of games had some sort of quick travel, even those *gasp* often cited here, its not like WoW invented quick travel (or LOTRO or "insert MMO here") Just in LOTRO (for instance): hunter "taxi", captain summon, guardians acorn, swift horses, return to capital city, binding stones. At launch.
And WoW was one of the least immersive games i had tried. I couldnt even make it to max level how bad it was immersion wise. Static world, nothing ever changes, bad humor, fed-ex meaningless quests, gigantic shoulderpads...
I have to say that for me, the original Guild Wars was much more immersive than the second, maybe because it was a lobby game and the adventure felt much more personal, not seeing other players around except for the cities and outposts. And the story was much more interesting, it's one of my favorite worlds ever created. I felt the same with FFXI and it was zoned too, almost every MMO is zoned, the "seamless" worlds are, in fact, very rare in MMOs, so arguing that zones breaks immersion is simply stupid, we had immersion before WoW, the original EverQuest was one of the most immersive games in the story of MMOs and it was zoned too.
[Maybe it's not GW2's fault, maybe it's us, the players,] who have matured and the sense of immersion and fascination we had with MMOs is harder to obtain with every new game that is released...
I pray to God this was sarcasm.
I believe that is the case.
Hope I don't need to elaborate
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
I'd have to say that GW2 is easily the most immersive game out there in my opinion. What other game, for example, can you be out and about then a random NPC actually runs up to you and asks for help? You see what they want and suddenly you're being pulled along through an event chain you may have had no idea was there. THAT'S immersion, when the game itself whisks you up and carries you off on an adventure of some sort. Nothing like walking along, falling in a hole in the ground you didn't see and finding a little girl that needs an escort out of there to safety. Or you're in an outpost at a merchant clearing out your bags and start taking damage because the centaurs decided to attack while you were busy. Maybe not centaurs, maybe a champion level giant is attacking the town, and if you and others don't team up to take him down the town will be rendered useless until someone does.
How you travel is, to me, irrelevant. Be it map travel (A Guild Wars lore item, btw, from GW1) or on the back of a gryphon it's nothing more than a means to safely get from point "A" to "B". I much prefer the instant means where I can get right back into the world than the five minute gryphon flight where you pretty much turn over control of your character to the clock and wait.
Shapes of the zones? Show us the boxes in screenshots from actually in the zone itself. I never feel like I'm in a box in any zone. The artistry, the layout, the active, event driven content simply makes it feel alive.
I have to say that for me, the original Guild Wars was much more immersive than the second, maybe because it was a lobby game and the adventure felt much more personal, not seeing other players around except for the cities and outposts. And the story was much more interesting, it's one of my favorite worlds ever created. I felt the same with FFXI and it was zoned too, almost every MMO is zoned, the "seamless" worlds are, in fact, very rare in MMOs, so arguing that zones breaks immersion is simply stupid, we had immersion before WoW, the original EverQuest was one of the most immersive games in the story of MMOs and it was zoned too.
[Maybe it's not GW2's fault, maybe it's us, the players,] who have matured and the sense of immersion and fascination we had with MMOs is harder to obtain with every new game that is released...
I pray to God this was sarcasm.
I believe that is the case.
Hope I don't need to elaborate
In fact, no, it's not a sarcasm, from a time ago it's other players that constantly breaks my immersion in games. Everytime i see a player with a stupid name like "Immagonnabustyainpvp" or something like that, everytime i see players riding horses inside houses, everytime i have to read stupid arguments in the global chat, i miss my adventures through Guild Wars where i played with AI controlled heroes that always fit in the world and lore. In my case, the only way to feel immersed in games these days is playing offline, or in a low crowded area with my RP guild in GW2, the same guild i had in GW1.
I actually made posts articulating the same feelings right after release, but everyone told me I was the only one and that GW2 is the most immersive experience they ever had. Actually you still see a lot of those kind of posts. Often they post screenshots that are absolutely beautifull, but that has little to do with immersion. Neither does a vast and active game world. It relates to it, but its doesn't cover everything that has to do with immersion.
For me personally its mostly the UI and how central it is when you undertake actions in the gameworld. The Ui really feels like a lose layer not directly integrated into the actual game world. For example, you can level up skills directly trough the interface but this has no relation to anything in the game world. Same goes for the teleporting, you click on something on the minimap and boom loadscreen. The UI does not connect to my character at all, my caracter doesn't cast a teleport animation or something like that. This and a lot more things that are established through the UI make it so that I feel disconnected to my character. UI's are there to create the connection from the actual player to the virtual world. The UI GW does a poor job at doing this in a subtle way, and therefore making GW2 more feel like an actual game, than a virtual world that you immerse yourself in.
TL;DR: The UI of GW2, while beautifull and artistic does a poor job at creating a subtle connection between player and virtual game world. Too much is regulated directly and solely through the UI, making the UI feel as a seperate layer of the game and not something part of the virtual world.
And exactly how much of the time are you map travelling or buying skills?
Arn't you always traveling? And isnt skills part of the process of growth of the character in the game world? Arn't those especially the things that are crucial to RPGs? The direction GW2 took was more action than RPG, so if guess that explains the reason it works this way in GW2. But its not only the examples i gave, the UI acts on its own, for example the constant popups and directions etc. Giving me UI medals, for accomplishments. UI medals that have 0 relation to the actual world, same goes for random achievements, or simply discovering certain places on the map. When you communicate too much through the UI instead of the world it feels more like a game than a world.
I'm always travelling but I'm not always travelling via waypoints or portals.
I can spend hours (and I do) in the same zone. Often I plan to do something and hours after that I haven't done it since some muc stuff happens.
Going to a trainer and click in them to open the UI to buy skills is much better than buying skills points straight from the UI.
Yeah because most RPGs don't pop up level ups, skills learned, achievements, pop up buttons for you to accept rewards and take next quest , quest journals, target icons, buffs and debufs icons,etc.
It is a game and it has an UI.
Like every other game and particularly MMOs with several skill buttons and thousands addons.
Selectong GW2 which is one of the MMORPGs with less and smaller UI elements is IMO showing bias.
But if you want to feel immersed press the following "ctrl+shift+h" - there no UI, total immersion.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
I have to say that for me, the original Guild Wars was much more immersive than the second, maybe because it was a lobby game and the adventure felt much more personal, not seeing other players around except for the cities and outposts. And the story was much more interesting, it's one of my favorite worlds ever created. I felt the same with FFXI and it was zoned too, almost every MMO is zoned, the "seamless" worlds are, in fact, very rare in MMOs, so arguing that zones breaks immersion is simply stupid, we had immersion before WoW, the original EverQuest was one of the most immersive games in the story of MMOs and it was zoned too.
[Maybe it's not GW2's fault, maybe it's us, the players,] who have matured and the sense of immersion and fascination we had with MMOs is harder to obtain with every new game that is released...
I pray to God this was sarcasm.
I believe that is the case.
Hope I don't need to elaborate
In fact, no, it's not a sarcasm, from a time ago it's other players that constantly breaks my immersion in games. Everytime i see a player with a stupid name like "Immagonnabustyainpvp" or something like that, everytime i see players riding horses inside houses, everytime i have to read stupid arguments in the global chat, i miss my adventures through Guild Wars where i played with AI controlled heroes that always fit in the world and lore. In my case, the only way to feel immersed in games these days is playing offline, or in a low crowded area with my RP guild in GW2, the same guild i had in GW1.
Whew so glad you elaborated, at first I was confused as hell.
Okay well in this case clearly it's not the game fault, in fact I could tell by the first few agreements and disagreements towards the OP that it is not the game fault.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Originally posted by asmkm22 One thing that bothers me is how claustrophobic the game feels. I think it hs to do with the clouds being so close to the ground. Whatever the reason, it makes the world feel much smaller than the maps suggest.
Most bizarre comment I've read in a while.
"Damn GW2. Back in my day, clouds were higher up, making the maps feel larger."
I think the main offender in this case are the instant-portals paired with the cut off rectangular zones. There is no exotic part of the world that you can't get to within 2 minutes. In my last hours of beta i ran from one end of the map to the other without using portals, that was immersive, and a beautiful sight to behold all the way. It really made the world feel as large as it is. Now someone's going to argue "well keep doing that then, portals are optional". Just don't, it's not a valid argument. I can't tell my dungeon party to wait for 1.5 hours while i embark on a heroic journey to our destination. Even if i had such patient and understanding friends, the knowledge of the portal and that they are already there waiting because they used it, breaks it.
GW2 is a beautiful game by all means, but the portals just takes away from it's true potential in my opinion. While understandably practical in todays expectations of instant gratification, there is no doubt that the world would feel much larger and exotic if it was done in another way.
The zone-borders and narrow doorway-portals between them is a technical limitation. I understand why they are there. But in an ideal fantasy-world, removing them would also add alot to the immersion and sense of scale.
And thats exactly why you wil never get AAA game you want.
Concept:
Ill run there today (few hoours)
Tomorrow ill play dungeon (few hours)
And then day after tomorrow ill run back (few hours)
is extreme niche and so obvious timesinks that it hurts.
i dont really know why you and people like you hang around AAA MMOs since they obviously dont provide things you want and instead go (back) to those games that do.
And instant gratification? So, playing 100 hours through crap just to have 1 hour of fun is "way to go"?
Why are you making stuff up just to have an excuse to attack someone? Does it make you feel good?
My overall favorite MMO to date is WoW. Do you still think you know me?
Maybe it's not GW2's fault, maybe it's us, the players, who have matured and the sense of immersion and fascination we had with MMOs is harder to obtain with every new game that is released...
Thats what this whole discussion points to.
the whole "immersion breaking" argument from using optonal stuff is invalid.
If you are offered option A and B, A breakes youe immersion and B doesnt, but you costantly choose A and then proceed to whine about how "A is immersion breaking"....i mean it tells more about player than the game.
This argument that if quick travel breaks your immersion, don't use it is not entirely true. That would be a fair point if there were mounts in the game. But if I don't use quick travel my only option is to walk. In WoW I could get a mount which sped things up. But then again when people suggest that ArenaNet introduce mounts, people say what's the point? The question is why not? It will give people who don't want to use quick travel an alternative.
But but but....the longer it takes its more immersive! Why would you want to speed things up? By claims here you shouldnt even run but walk everywhere. Mounts break immersion! Running breakes immersion because its not realistic that you can run all the time! And then you need to rest, i mean walking across half the world and then just jump in in the battle? You need couple days rest at least! Want me to go further ;P
Oh, and BTW, most of games had some sort of quick travel, even those *gasp* often cited here, its not like WoW invented quick travel (or LOTRO or "insert MMO here") Just in LOTRO (for instance): hunter "taxi", captain summon, guardians acorn, swift horses, return to capital city, binding stones. At launch.
And WoW was one of the least immersive games i had tried. I couldnt even make it to max level how bad it was immersion wise. Static world, nothing ever changes, bad humor, fed-ex meaningless quests, gigantic shoulderpads...
Your completely missing the point. Length of time <> immersion, but travel is a big part. There is no travel in GW2. You either walk (which gets old fast) or you waypoint. There are no vehicles. No airships. No mounts. No nothing. Part of what works in WoW and EQ is if I have to go a far distance I can still enjoy the landscape just at a faster speed which is more realistic. I would love to be able to fly through Tyria but I can't at the moment.
Portals also work but its the implementation. Portals in WoW and EQ are part of the game and lore. EQ had Plane of Knowledge. Does exactly the same as waypoints but its part of the game making it feel more like your character is travelling via magic means versus me as a player. In GW2 I click an object on my map which ports my character... thats a player mechanic and does nothing to tie to the players' action to what the character is doing (other than appearing in a new location).
I dont see this as a 'bug' or problem with GW2 but more as a feature. GW2 is more geared toward an 'arcade' RPG experience as opposed to a fully immersive 'lived-in world' These decisions were pre-made and we cant honestly fault them for that.
I'm still interested where they go with this 'living story' (which btw I think is a great concept) but think they will take it far enough for me personally to enjoy it.
Your completely missing the point. Length of time <> immersion, but travel is a big part. There is no travel in GW2. You either walk (which gets old fast) or you waypoint. There are no vehicles. No airships. No mounts. No nothing. Part of what works in WoW and EQ is if I have to go a far distance I can still enjoy the landscape just at a faster speed which is more realistic. I would love to be able to fly through Tyria but I can't at the moment.
Portals also work but its the implementation. Portals in WoW and EQ are part of the game and lore. EQ had Plane of Knowledge. Does exactly the same as waypoints but its part of the game making it feel more like your character is travelling via magic means versus me as a player. In GW2 I click an object on my map which ports my character... thats a player mechanic and does nothing to tie to the players' action to what the character is doing (other than appearing in a new location).
I dont see this as a 'bug' or problem with GW2 but more as a feature. GW2 is more geared toward an 'arcade' RPG experience as opposed to a fully immersive 'lived-in world' These decisions were pre-made and we cant honestly fault them for that.
I'm still interested where they go with this 'living story' (which btw I think is a great concept) but think they will take it far enough for me personally to enjoy it.
I think you're missing the point actually. GW1 introduced "map travel" as a part of the lore of the game. There's even a quest you get from the son of the women (he claims) who invented it. To remove map travel and Asura Gates (also featured in Eye of the North) would be to break immersion for the GW vets by stepping all over the lore of the game.
The real immersion is in the world itself. What other do the NPCs run over to you asking for help? What other games does the PvE content come to you whether you're ready for it or not?
The real immersion is in the world itself. What other do the NPCs run over to you asking for help? What other games does the PvE content come to you whether you're ready for it or not?
I'm sure someone will come up with "Rift", where the game throws the same lousy NPC invasions at you over and over again without any real relation to the zone you're in, the setting and the local context, so I'll do a preventive strike with this post
Your completely missing the point. Length of time <> immersion, but travel is a big part. There is no travel in GW2. You either walk (which gets old fast) or you waypoint. There are no vehicles. No airships. No mounts. No nothing. Part of what works in WoW and EQ is if I have to go a far distance I can still enjoy the landscape just at a faster speed which is more realistic. I would love to be able to fly through Tyria but I can't at the moment.
Portals also work but its the implementation. Portals in WoW and EQ are part of the game and lore. EQ had Plane of Knowledge. Does exactly the same as waypoints but its part of the game making it feel more like your character is travelling via magic means versus me as a player. In GW2 I click an object on my map which ports my character... thats a player mechanic and does nothing to tie to the players' action to what the character is doing (other than appearing in a new location).
I dont see this as a 'bug' or problem with GW2 but more as a feature. GW2 is more geared toward an 'arcade' RPG experience as opposed to a fully immersive 'lived-in world' These decisions were pre-made and we cant honestly fault them for that.
I'm still interested where they go with this 'living story' (which btw I think is a great concept) but think they will take it far enough for me personally to enjoy it.
I think you're missing the point actually. GW1 introduced "map travel" as a part of the lore of the game. There's even a quest you get from the son of the women (he claims) who invented it. To remove map travel and Asura Gates (also featured in Eye of the North) would be to break immersion for the GW vets by stepping all over the lore of the game.
The real immersion is in the world itself. What other do the NPCs run over to you asking for help? What other games does the PvE content come to you whether you're ready for it or not?
Your actually making mine :-)
I wouldn't want the waypoints to be removed. Just its use/functionality integrated more into the game. But I admit I wasn't aware the waypoints were Asuran made/part of the lore. (I never played GW1).
I do like NPCs asking for help. Something other MMOs should take note. Just wish what they said had a bit more depth. But then again perhaps I'm asking for too much.
Whichever the case GW2 in its current form will not be my main... but a friend I visit every so often.
Your completely missing the point. Length of time <> immersion, but travel is a big part. There is no travel in GW2. You either walk (which gets old fast) or you waypoint. There are no vehicles. No airships. No mounts. No nothing. Part of what works in WoW and EQ is if I have to go a far distance I can still enjoy the landscape just at a faster speed which is more realistic. I would love to be able to fly through Tyria but I can't at the moment.
Portals also work but its the implementation. Portals in WoW and EQ are part of the game and lore. EQ had Plane of Knowledge. Does exactly the same as waypoints but its part of the game making it feel more like your character is travelling via magic means versus me as a player. In GW2 I click an object on my map which ports my character... thats a player mechanic and does nothing to tie to the players' action to what the character is doing (other than appearing in a new location).
I dont see this as a 'bug' or problem with GW2 but more as a feature. GW2 is more geared toward an 'arcade' RPG experience as opposed to a fully immersive 'lived-in world' These decisions were pre-made and we cant honestly fault them for that.
I'm still interested where they go with this 'living story' (which btw I think is a great concept) but think they will take it far enough for me personally to enjoy it.
Because thats all part of the lore of Tyria. In fact one of the first tips you get when you start a new character is explanation of Asura waypoints that are operated by Asura and can teleport you for a small fee. Asura gates are integral part conquering Orr.
Vehicles and mounts are pointless when you have Asura waypoints, in fact it would be stupid to see "traffic" (though you have dolyaks as mules). They may add them for flavor though. Airships, afaik, were just "invented", you also get your backstory on them in your personal story.
OTOH you have the option on travelling on foot (which is perfectly fine), but you choose not to.
And you got it wrong, they said "if it takes one and a half hour journey its epic!" So yah, walk and it will take one and a half hour...if you want to. Nobody is stopping them from doing just that. Yet they whine because they have a button (that apparently breakes their immersion) they keep on pushing. Its not games problem were seeing here.
Originally posted by timtrack
Please elaborate. Or was it just an attempted insult?
Fallen Earth is another game that's high up on my top-list.
Didnt Fallen Earth made quick travel possible because of the pressure of playerbase as it had absolutely none at launch? Yest it did. I rest my case.
Your completely missing the point. Length of time <> immersion, but travel is a big part. There is no travel in GW2. You either walk (which gets old fast) or you waypoint. There are no vehicles. No airships. No mounts. No nothing. Part of what works in WoW and EQ is if I have to go a far distance I can still enjoy the landscape just at a faster speed which is more realistic. I would love to be able to fly through Tyria but I can't at the moment.
Portals also work but its the implementation. Portals in WoW and EQ are part of the game and lore. EQ had Plane of Knowledge. Does exactly the same as waypoints but its part of the game making it feel more like your character is travelling via magic means versus me as a player. In GW2 I click an object on my map which ports my character... thats a player mechanic and does nothing to tie to the players' action to what the character is doing (other than appearing in a new location).
I dont see this as a 'bug' or problem with GW2 but more as a feature. GW2 is more geared toward an 'arcade' RPG experience as opposed to a fully immersive 'lived-in world' These decisions were pre-made and we cant honestly fault them for that.
I'm still interested where they go with this 'living story' (which btw I think is a great concept) but think they will take it far enough for me personally to enjoy it.
Because thats all part of the lore of Tyria. In fact one of the first tips you get when you start a new character is explanation of Asura waypoints that are operated by Asura and can teleport you for a small fee. Asura gates are integral part conquering Orr.
Vehicles and mounts are pointless when you have Asura waypoints, in fact it would be stupid to see "traffic" (though you have dolyaks as mules). They may add them for flavor though. Airships, afaik, were just "invented", you also get your backstory on them in your personal story.
OTOH you have the option on travelling on foot (which is perfectly fine), but you choose not to.
And you got it wrong, they said "if it takes one and a half hour journey its epic!" So yah, walk and it will take one and a half hour...if you want to. Nobody is stopping them from doing just that. Yet they whine because they have a button (that apparently breakes their immersion) they keep on pushing. Its not games problem were seeing here.
Thanks for clearing that up. I was unaware that waypoints were part of the lore. That makes sense. I never said the game had a problem and I actually called it a feature and said it was pre-designed to be that way by the developers.
Though my original argument fell apart :-) It still doesnt remove my original premise that I dont feel GW2 is immersive (enough) for me to engage in the game fulltime. It still feels like an arcade.
This is not to take away the joy countless others are having. I hope it continues for them. I will continue to see how this living story plays and if it introduces the 'touches' I am looking for (but seem to have a hard time explaining).
Thanks for clearing that up. I was unaware that waypoints were part of the lore. That makes sense. I never said the game had a problem and I actually called it a feature and said it was pre-designed to be that way by the developers.
Though my original argument fell apart :-) It still doesnt remove my original premise that I dont feel GW2 is immersive (enough) for me to engage in the game fulltime. It still feels like an arcade.
This is not to take away the joy countless others are having. I hope it continues for them. I will continue to see how this living story plays and if it introduces the 'touches' I am looking for (but seem to have a hard time explaining).
No problem, its not much of an explanation, but its there ;P
I just wonder at people that keep pushing buttons that break their immersion and then complain about it ;P Stop pushing them buttons if they irritate you so much, there, problem solved lol
Maybe it's not GW2's fault, maybe it's us, the players, who have matured and the sense of immersion and fascination we had with MMOs is harder to obtain with every new game that is released...
Thats what this whole discussion points to.
the whole "immersion breaking" argument from using optonal stuff is invalid.
If you are offered option A and B, A breakes youe immersion and B doesnt, but you costantly choose A and then proceed to whine about how "A is immersion breaking"....i mean it tells more about player than the game.
This argument that if quick travel breaks your immersion, don't use it is not entirely true. That would be a fair point if there were mounts in the game. But if I don't use quick travel my only option is to walk. In WoW I could get a mount which sped things up. But then again when people suggest that ArenaNet introduce mounts, people say what's the point? The question is why not? It will give people who don't want to use quick travel an alternative.
But but but....the longer it takes its more immersive! Why would you want to speed things up? By claims here you shouldnt even run but walk everywhere. Mounts break immersion! Running breakes immersion because its not realistic that you can run all the time! And then you need to rest, i mean walking across half the world and then just jump in in the battle? You need couple days rest at least! Want me to go further ;P
Oh, and BTW, most of games had some sort of quick travel, even those *gasp* often cited here, its not like WoW invented quick travel (or LOTRO or "insert MMO here") Just in LOTRO (for instance): hunter "taxi", captain summon, guardians acorn, swift horses, return to capital city, binding stones. At launch.
And WoW was one of the least immersive games i had tried. I couldnt even make it to max level how bad it was immersion wise. Static world, nothing ever changes, bad humor, fed-ex meaningless quests, gigantic shoulderpads...
Your completely missing the point. Length of time <> immersion, but travel is a big part. There is no travel in GW2. You either walk (which gets old fast) or you waypoint. There are no vehicles. No airships. No mounts. No nothing. Part of what works in WoW and EQ is if I have to go a far distance I can still enjoy the landscape just at a faster speed which is more realistic. I would love to be able to fly through Tyria but I can't at the moment.
Portals also work but its the implementation. Portals in WoW and EQ are part of the game and lore. EQ had Plane of Knowledge. Does exactly the same as waypoints but its part of the game making it feel more like your character is travelling via magic means versus me as a player. In GW2 I click an object on my map which ports my character... thats a player mechanic and does nothing to tie to the players' action to what the character is doing (other than appearing in a new location).
I dont see this as a 'bug' or problem with GW2 but more as a feature. GW2 is more geared toward an 'arcade' RPG experience as opposed to a fully immersive 'lived-in world' These decisions were pre-made and we cant honestly fault them for that.
I'm still interested where they go with this 'living story' (which btw I think is a great concept) but think they will take it far enough for me personally to enjoy it.
I think you are the one missing the point.
You rarely travel in GW2 because zones are packed with content, they are never useless.
I travel if: I want to play with a friend, i want to go do a dungeon, I'm working on my personal story., i want to go to the other side of the world.
By the way waypoints are asura magic constructs just like the asura gates.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
You rarely travel in GW2 because zones are packed with content, they are never useless.
I travel if: I want to play with a friend, i want to go do a dungeon, I'm working on my personal story., i want to go to the other side of the world.
Yah, i always get stuck in a zone because even 10th time im going through i find stuffs i missed
Dont even use waypoints that much.
yea same:) just another quick example of an early DE and on how i find this game immersive compared to others.. in wayferer foothills theres a small lodge you come accross. Outside is a bunch of kids having a snowball fight which you can join in on to complete the heart.. Near the entrance is a boy and if you talk to him he will tell you about going off to do a hunt which you agree to help him.. you walk off with him and kill a veteran deer and you can follow him as he brings the head back to his dad and the dad talks to him about taking him out hunting next time. Now right after that you usually can hear a conversation coming from inside the lodge with a group of kids talking about doing a honey ritual to summon a bear. They spread honey all over the place which ends up causing a stampede of bears to rush the lounge. You have to fend of the beers to complete the DE.
This sort of thing happens all over the place an higher you get in zones the larger they get with more going on as you get more into the warzone type zones.. either way just this and how the npcs interact and you can actually follow them around and see where they go and where they start instead of just dissapearing into thin air all the time like most other games.. all these things really make gw2 such an immersive pve experience for me.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
OP, I love GW2 but have the same issue as you. I think it comes down to the non-seamless world for me, when I walk into a town and there is a loading screen I feel that town as a seperate area and not as a part of the game world (which, in fact, is the case). I also just can't bring myself to believe that the entire game world is split up into these box shaped valleys between mountains.
That being said, I still love the game. It really is just a shame the world feels so artificial as a whole, because if you only look closely at small parts of each area it feels very detailed and alive.
Edit: I also think instant travel is a detriment to MMOs (and flying mounts but hopefully that doesn't happen). When people are forced to move through the world to get around, you see more people, it feels more real. I try to stick to not using waypoints myself, but it still feels odd to not see more travellers.
Edit2: If I had to decide between an open world or having the detail currently present, I would pick the latter. I just wish we could have both.
Comments
Thats what this whole discussion points to.
the whole "immersion breaking" argument from using optonal stuff is invalid.
If you are offered option A and B, A breakes youe immersion and B doesnt, but you costantly choose A and then proceed to whine about how "A is immersion breaking"....i mean it tells more about player than the game.
Good graphics and scenery is one of the things which help immersion but it's not the only one. The other two aspects which contribute to immersion are music and story.
The lore behind the GW universe is great and I really found the story in GW1 interesting. The problem in GW2 is that there is almost no story behind it. Hearts do not deliver any story which is a huge turn off. I often stop playing MMOs when I stop reading their quest boxes. Just clicking accept and killing 10 mobs is boring to me and feels like grind. But when you find the story interesting in the quests it makes it that much more immersive. It gives you context and background to your actions. Much more immersive. EVents for the most part don't deliver any real story (except some more elaborate event chains/meta evants). Personal story is good but the fact that it happens once every 3 levels and it is uterly boring and cheesy makes it baad. I am sick of being told I am the best thing to grace Tyria since sliced bread.
Music is the other aspect. GW2 has some amazing soundtracks. They are very immersive. BUT often I hear only one track per zone and it plays only once in a while. Kinda gets lost. GW1 did this brilliantly.
Despite what people say about exclamations marks over NPCs heads, WOW was one of the most immersive MMOs I've played. GW1 did not come anywhere near the level of immersion WoW had and I find GW2 even less immersive than GW1 so yeah. Every zone in WoW had real personality behind it and it had quite a bit of story behind it. Zones like Duskwood, Burning Steppes, Ashenvale etc. were amazing and very immersive. WoW also had incredible music and sound which really made it very immersive. And I have never ever been bothered by those exclamation marks people talk about all the time. It's only since GW2 started saying how that's stupid and old school that people started having a problem with that. And it's not like GW2 got rid of that, did they? I can see that karma/heart symbol over an NPC. It's just a different shape.
Also the seamless transition between zones and no quick travel did help WoW's immersion too. I don't mind zoning and I don't see as an instant immersion breaker but seamless transitions really helps.
This argument that if quick travel breaks your immersion, don't use it is not entirely true. That would be a fair point if there were mounts in the game. But if I don't use quick travel my only option is to walk. In WoW I could get a mount which sped things up. But then again when people suggest that ArenaNet introduce mounts, people say what's the point? The question is why not? It will give people who don't want to use quick travel an alternative.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
For me, it lacked immersion because there is no reason why the 3 servers are fighting. The WvW is great but we are 'aware' we are fighting 2 other servers. Would've been cool if they called them dimensions or had an in-game explanation.
But but but....the longer it takes its more immersive! Why would you want to speed things up? By claims here you shouldnt even run but walk everywhere. Mounts break immersion! Running breakes immersion because its not realistic that you can run all the time! And then you need to rest, i mean walking across half the world and then just jump in in the battle? You need couple days rest at least! Want me to go further ;P
Oh, and BTW, most of games had some sort of quick travel, even those *gasp* often cited here, its not like WoW invented quick travel (or LOTRO or "insert MMO here") Just in LOTRO (for instance): hunter "taxi", captain summon, guardians acorn, swift horses, return to capital city, binding stones. At launch.
And WoW was one of the least immersive games i had tried. I couldnt even make it to max level how bad it was immersion wise. Static world, nothing ever changes, bad humor, fed-ex meaningless quests, gigantic shoulderpads...
I pray to God this was sarcasm.
I believe that is the case.
Hope I don't need to elaborate
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
I'd have to say that GW2 is easily the most immersive game out there in my opinion. What other game, for example, can you be out and about then a random NPC actually runs up to you and asks for help? You see what they want and suddenly you're being pulled along through an event chain you may have had no idea was there. THAT'S immersion, when the game itself whisks you up and carries you off on an adventure of some sort. Nothing like walking along, falling in a hole in the ground you didn't see and finding a little girl that needs an escort out of there to safety. Or you're in an outpost at a merchant clearing out your bags and start taking damage because the centaurs decided to attack while you were busy. Maybe not centaurs, maybe a champion level giant is attacking the town, and if you and others don't team up to take him down the town will be rendered useless until someone does.
How you travel is, to me, irrelevant. Be it map travel (A Guild Wars lore item, btw, from GW1) or on the back of a gryphon it's nothing more than a means to safely get from point "A" to "B". I much prefer the instant means where I can get right back into the world than the five minute gryphon flight where you pretty much turn over control of your character to the clock and wait.
Shapes of the zones? Show us the boxes in screenshots from actually in the zone itself. I never feel like I'm in a box in any zone. The artistry, the layout, the active, event driven content simply makes it feel alive.
Oderint, dum metuant.
In fact, no, it's not a sarcasm, from a time ago it's other players that constantly breaks my immersion in games. Everytime i see a player with a stupid name like "Immagonnabustyainpvp" or something like that, everytime i see players riding horses inside houses, everytime i have to read stupid arguments in the global chat, i miss my adventures through Guild Wars where i played with AI controlled heroes that always fit in the world and lore. In my case, the only way to feel immersed in games these days is playing offline, or in a low crowded area with my RP guild in GW2, the same guild i had in GW1.
I'm always travelling but I'm not always travelling via waypoints or portals.
I can spend hours (and I do) in the same zone. Often I plan to do something and hours after that I haven't done it since some muc stuff happens.
Going to a trainer and click in them to open the UI to buy skills is much better than buying skills points straight from the UI.
Yeah because most RPGs don't pop up level ups, skills learned, achievements, pop up buttons for you to accept rewards and take next quest , quest journals, target icons, buffs and debufs icons,etc.
It is a game and it has an UI.
Like every other game and particularly MMOs with several skill buttons and thousands addons.
Selectong GW2 which is one of the MMORPGs with less and smaller UI elements is IMO showing bias.
But if you want to feel immersed press the following "ctrl+shift+h" - there no UI, total immersion.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Whew so glad you elaborated, at first I was confused as hell.
Okay well in this case clearly it's not the game fault, in fact I could tell by the first few agreements and disagreements towards the OP that it is not the game fault.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Most bizarre comment I've read in a while.
"Damn GW2. Back in my day, clouds were higher up, making the maps feel larger."
Yeah.......... ok.
Why are you making stuff up just to have an excuse to attack someone? Does it make you feel good?
My overall favorite MMO to date is WoW. Do you still think you know me?
Hmm... perhaps more than ever now.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Please elaborate. Or was it just an attempted insult?
Fallen Earth is another game that's high up on my top-list.
Your completely missing the point. Length of time <> immersion, but travel is a big part. There is no travel in GW2. You either walk (which gets old fast) or you waypoint. There are no vehicles. No airships. No mounts. No nothing. Part of what works in WoW and EQ is if I have to go a far distance I can still enjoy the landscape just at a faster speed which is more realistic. I would love to be able to fly through Tyria but I can't at the moment.
Portals also work but its the implementation. Portals in WoW and EQ are part of the game and lore. EQ had Plane of Knowledge. Does exactly the same as waypoints but its part of the game making it feel more like your character is travelling via magic means versus me as a player. In GW2 I click an object on my map which ports my character... thats a player mechanic and does nothing to tie to the players' action to what the character is doing (other than appearing in a new location).
I dont see this as a 'bug' or problem with GW2 but more as a feature. GW2 is more geared toward an 'arcade' RPG experience as opposed to a fully immersive 'lived-in world' These decisions were pre-made and we cant honestly fault them for that.
I'm still interested where they go with this 'living story' (which btw I think is a great concept) but think they will take it far enough for me personally to enjoy it.
I think you're missing the point actually. GW1 introduced "map travel" as a part of the lore of the game. There's even a quest you get from the son of the women (he claims) who invented it. To remove map travel and Asura Gates (also featured in Eye of the North) would be to break immersion for the GW vets by stepping all over the lore of the game.
The real immersion is in the world itself. What other do the NPCs run over to you asking for help? What other games does the PvE content come to you whether you're ready for it or not?
Oderint, dum metuant.
Rifts: Events that stop you from questing.
GW2: Events are the questing.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Your actually making mine :-)
I wouldn't want the waypoints to be removed. Just its use/functionality integrated more into the game. But I admit I wasn't aware the waypoints were Asuran made/part of the lore. (I never played GW1).
I do like NPCs asking for help. Something other MMOs should take note. Just wish what they said had a bit more depth. But then again perhaps I'm asking for too much.
Whichever the case GW2 in its current form will not be my main... but a friend I visit every so often.
Because thats all part of the lore of Tyria. In fact one of the first tips you get when you start a new character is explanation of Asura waypoints that are operated by Asura and can teleport you for a small fee. Asura gates are integral part conquering Orr.
Vehicles and mounts are pointless when you have Asura waypoints, in fact it would be stupid to see "traffic" (though you have dolyaks as mules). They may add them for flavor though. Airships, afaik, were just "invented", you also get your backstory on them in your personal story.
OTOH you have the option on travelling on foot (which is perfectly fine), but you choose not to.
And you got it wrong, they said "if it takes one and a half hour journey its epic!" So yah, walk and it will take one and a half hour...if you want to. Nobody is stopping them from doing just that. Yet they whine because they have a button (that apparently breakes their immersion) they keep on pushing. Its not games problem were seeing here.
Didnt Fallen Earth made quick travel possible because of the pressure of playerbase as it had absolutely none at launch? Yest it did. I rest my case.
Thanks for clearing that up. I was unaware that waypoints were part of the lore. That makes sense. I never said the game had a problem and I actually called it a feature and said it was pre-designed to be that way by the developers.
Though my original argument fell apart :-) It still doesnt remove my original premise that I dont feel GW2 is immersive (enough) for me to engage in the game fulltime. It still feels like an arcade.
This is not to take away the joy countless others are having. I hope it continues for them. I will continue to see how this living story plays and if it introduces the 'touches' I am looking for (but seem to have a hard time explaining).
No problem, its not much of an explanation, but its there ;P
I just wonder at people that keep pushing buttons that break their immersion and then complain about it ;P Stop pushing them buttons if they irritate you so much, there, problem solved lol
I think you are the one missing the point.
You rarely travel in GW2 because zones are packed with content, they are never useless.
I travel if: I want to play with a friend, i want to go do a dungeon, I'm working on my personal story., i want to go to the other side of the world.
By the way waypoints are asura magic constructs just like the asura gates.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Yah, i always get stuck in a zone because even 10th time im going through i find stuffs i missed
Dont even use waypoints that much.
yea same:) just another quick example of an early DE and on how i find this game immersive compared to others.. in wayferer foothills theres a small lodge you come accross. Outside is a bunch of kids having a snowball fight which you can join in on to complete the heart.. Near the entrance is a boy and if you talk to him he will tell you about going off to do a hunt which you agree to help him.. you walk off with him and kill a veteran deer and you can follow him as he brings the head back to his dad and the dad talks to him about taking him out hunting next time. Now right after that you usually can hear a conversation coming from inside the lodge with a group of kids talking about doing a honey ritual to summon a bear. They spread honey all over the place which ends up causing a stampede of bears to rush the lounge. You have to fend of the beers to complete the DE.
This sort of thing happens all over the place an higher you get in zones the larger they get with more going on as you get more into the warzone type zones.. either way just this and how the npcs interact and you can actually follow them around and see where they go and where they start instead of just dissapearing into thin air all the time like most other games.. all these things really make gw2 such an immersive pve experience for me.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
The zones are far from claustrofobic and shoeboxed.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
OP, I love GW2 but have the same issue as you. I think it comes down to the non-seamless world for me, when I walk into a town and there is a loading screen I feel that town as a seperate area and not as a part of the game world (which, in fact, is the case). I also just can't bring myself to believe that the entire game world is split up into these box shaped valleys between mountains.
That being said, I still love the game. It really is just a shame the world feels so artificial as a whole, because if you only look closely at small parts of each area it feels very detailed and alive.
Edit: I also think instant travel is a detriment to MMOs (and flying mounts but hopefully that doesn't happen). When people are forced to move through the world to get around, you see more people, it feels more real. I try to stick to not using waypoints myself, but it still feels odd to not see more travellers.
Edit2: If I had to decide between an open world or having the detail currently present, I would pick the latter. I just wish we could have both.