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Why TESO was not designed as sandbox is a simple amswer
1) Sandbox requires vast creativity. Themeparks are just like any other simple RPG out there you follow a simple little script from A to Z. Much easier to make.
2) Cost associatied with trying to be creative is going to be high. These themeparks can be made cheaply because they are factory made now. They just keep on rollin out.
3) Elder scrolls name is huge so they already know they are going to sell many copies alone just on the name. Couple that with a cheaply made game and they are going to make a massive profit.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIVFavorite MMO: FFXI
Originally posted by potapithikos Originally posted by Caliburn101 OP - could you please encode your post into a DNA sequence, put it in a airbourne retrovirus and then release it into the community. People who bang on and on about OWPvP with full loot need to be reprogrammed and brought back to reality. Such games don't work. You either have an outstanding and unabusable consequences system, or you utterly fail... ... and to date - not one company has created said system. Fact.
Open World Full Loot PvP.
Eve is the exception that proves the rule.
It is right on the edge of the envelope of what constitutes an MMO - it is unique.
It is a low population niche game with player policed consequences in most of the game area - but then I don't need to discuss the differences between lowsec/highsec, canning or any other issue with you as you know.
It is the exception that proves the rule because the consequences system is only operated in a small area because if rolled out everywhere it would completely ruin the game.
Ergo - it is not really 'outstanding', and there can be arguments made for it not being 'unnabusable' as well.
In any case, allow me to unmuddy the water here.
In any MMO without spacecraft as the 'main characters', and where PC/NPC interractions are thus minimised and vastly simplified to an easily manageable extent, my contention holds.
Originally posted by Caliburn101 It [EvE] is a low population niche game with player policed consequences in most of the game area - but then I don't need to discuss the differences between lowsec/highsec, canning or any other issue with you as you know.
Low population? EvE now have over 500 000 subs and it will keep on climbing. They re-opened their Chinese server you see.
Originally posted by Caliburn101 Originally posted by potapithikos Originally posted by Caliburn101 OP - could you please encode your post into a DNA sequence, put it in a airbourne retrovirus and then release it into the community. People who bang on and on about OWPvP with full loot need to be reprogrammed and brought back to reality. Such games don't work. You either have an outstanding and unabusable consequences system, or you utterly fail... ... and to date - not one company has created said system. Fact.
Eve is the exception that proves the rule. EVE is the exception in that it was delivered by competent and better funded people than any of the post UO era MMOs like DF, MO and Earthrise.
It would be as stupid for me to say that Themepark with instanced, limited and completely structured PvP don't work and that WoW is the exception that proves the rule.
It is a low population niche game with player policed consequences in most of the game area - but then I don't need to discuss the differences between lowsec/highsec, canning or any other issue with you as you know. (500k subscribers, 50k+ simultaneously online... that sure has low pop and niche written all over it)
It is the exception that proves the rule because the consequences system is only operated in a small area because if rolled out everywhere it would completely ruin the game.
Do you even know what you are refering to by consequence system? The area btw that has no game enforced consequences for engaging in open pvp is far bigger than the area which still allows it but with tangible consequences.
So because you do not visually control a bipedal being but a spaceship PC interactions are minimised and vastly simplified? MINIMISED and VASTLY simplified??! If there is an MMO that allows players to affect one another in the most ways possible it's EVE... you clearly have no clue about what a Sandbox game is and what EVE is.
Sandboxes with Open PvP work. They have worked for ages... since the time of MUDs.
The catch is that just like Themeparks they have to be well made to actually prosper... DF is a sanbox junk... just like SWTOR is a themepark junk.
Originally posted by toddze 3) Elder scrolls name is huge so they already know they are going to sell many copies alone just on the name. Couple that with a cheaply made game and they are going to make a massive profit.
I bet there is an EA exec reading this right now going "Thank god.... for a moment i thought we were the only retards on this planet"
Originally posted by sapphen Originally posted by Jetrpg Originally posted by Rthuth434 ...OR... because for the millionth time a shot caller who use to be at Mythic did what Mythic does best, rehash their old work.
I have and its less similar to daoc than war or gw2 was....
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Originally posted by Caliburn101 Originally posted by Iselin Originally posted by keitholi Originally posted by Zaskar70 If there is one thing that I’m certain of in the MMORPG genre it’s that true sandbox games don’t work For the vast majority of the players that are out there. I began my MMORPG journey in 1998 in what I still consider the ultimate sandbox game, Ultima Online. Back in 1998 only 2 mainstream MMO’s existed, Ultima Online and Lineage and as far as anyone in the West was concerned Lineage didn’t exist because we didn’t hear about it, so for most western gamers it was Ultima Online or nothing. Ultima Online was the great experiment, a free roaming, do anything, skill based world to explore. There were no quests to do, no guides, no tutorials, nothing to nudge you in any one direction. You chose your starting city and you were thrown into the world. Ultima Online was a dangerous place to be, far more dangerous than any other MMORPG I have ever played since. Seeing another player while out exploring the world was a very tense moment, you could almost feel the tension between the two of you, it was this way because Ultima Online was a true sandbox in that anything could happen, you could lose everything you had on you, you could make a new friend, or you could choose to avoid one another. There were no true safe areas in Ultima Online. The city’s were a lot safer than the wilds though you could still be robbed by a thief without ever knowing it or even killed outright before the guards could respond. A common macro in that game when going to a bank in town was “Bank, Guards!, Thief!” since the thieves would hang out at the banks to relieve you of your adventuring loot before you could deposit it. Playing the game could be incredibly frustrating, for example on several occasions after jumping in my boat and sailing to a resource rich mining area on one of the coasts I would mine for hours only to have a couple guys sail into view, block me in with their boat before I could react and subsequently murder me. I would have to stand there on my boat which was now their boat as a ghost and watch as they looted my lifeless body, transferred all the ore it took me hours to mine to their boat, use my boat key which was now their boat key to deconstruct my boat to sell later. If they were nice they would rez me and gate me to some town, or more often than not just ignore my poor ghost until they sailed to a port and I could get off their boat and go to a healer to get rez’d. People couldn’t really handle a true sandbox game back then, the crying and loss of subscriptions became so great that Ultima Online had to change to survive so they split the game in two and created Trammel, an exact mirror of the old world Felucca but with one twist, it was no longer a true sandbox for there was no player vs. player allowed, you could live in absolute security and thus the great experiment ended and the first true sandbox game had failed. In my opinion if any AAA dev studio put out a true open world sandbox game today the tears would be endless and the screams of rage deafening. Anyone who posts that they want a true sandbox game but wasn’t around to play Ultima Online before Trammel doesn’t really understand what they are asking for in my opinion.
I love when people trot out the ole' "if it's not FFA PvP full loot, then its not a sandbox" meme. Just like in real life, as civilization started to take hold, people got tired of the lawlessness and did something about it. Nobody wants to live in a lawless society where everyone is out to slit your throat. Well, nobody who lives outside Somalia anyways. The MAJORITY of people do NOT want to lose everything they work hard at everytime they get killed in an MMO. That viewpoint is very niche and only a small percentage of the player population wants those types of games as PROVEN time and time again by less-than-stellar performances for those types of games. Griefing, full loot and no safe spots anywhere are NOT required to make a sandbox.
You're almost correct. Except I would change your last statement to: "Griefing, full loot and no safe spots anywhere are NOT required, or desirable to make a MMORPG."
The problem is that sandbox proponents are always trotting out the parts of UO they don't feel embarassed about when praising the greatness of sandboxes in the "golden age of MMOs" while conveniently forgetting the most noticeable and obnoxious aspects of it.
A lot of people here love to pigeonhole all MMOS into sandbox or themepark. I rather think of MMORPGS in their entirety as either a POS or not a POS. I haven't seen anything about TESO that makes me think POS... but I seem to be in the minority in this cesspool of a forum.
As an elite member with over 950 posts - it would seem that you cry crocodile tears in complaining that you are in a minority in this 'cesspool'.
Gee...I hadn't noticed any tears coming from the people in this TESO forum who are feeling good about how this game is developing. Perhaps you don't know that in order for hypocritical tears to be characterized as "crocodile tears" there have to be tears in the first place.
I do see a lot of tears from those of you who are protectors of the true TES legacy... but they seem to be genuine tears... pathetic as that may be.
See I'm not the one jumping into every non-negative thread--in addition to thebiased polls you seem to enjoy creating--and attempting to derail them as you did with this post in a thread where someone had the nerve to attempt to start a discussion about TESO with others who are veterans of DAoC RvR:
Originally posted by Caliburn101
Indeed - the 'DAoC or bust' hypetrain is overloaded with this one-track-minded bull.
No reason to not have both - but the DAoC crowd can't see past their rose-tinted nostalgia to the concerns of others.
Imagine the outcry from them if a DAoC 2 had been developed and had elements of TES forced into it in a way which seriously impacted on the way 3-faction PvP had worked in DAoC 1.
The boards would be flooded with tears and vitriol...
I thinks it's likely the PvP will be good. I can't see why not.
It's a shame they had to frack one of the best things about the incredibly successful IP they are using to do it.
The obvious implication of this thread's title is of course this;
"DAoC Veterans Welcome - Elder Scrolls Veterans irrelevant..."
You and a couple of cronies are attempting to dominate this forum with your negativity. I don't intend to make it easy for you. Even though this particular forum is being made a cesspool by you and yours, it really could be a better place where good dicussaions about the game could be had without your incesant whining about the same coupkle of problems you have with Zenimax's approach.
What I have been seeing is that a lot of you seem to want a sandbox game that caters to your own personal playstyle. For example if you love to explore you want a seemless open world with no instancing or if your a crafter you want the complete player run economy and deep meaningful crafting system or if your into PvP you want full open world ffa PvP.
The thing is that in order for a true sandbox game to work all of these different playstyles need to accept one another in the game world and that has proven very hard for most people to do.
In my opinion the term sandbox when applied to a game means you are free as a player to express yourself within the gaming world in whatever way you wish.
Gamers have begun to feel entitled to their personal playstyle with no interuption's or incoveniences, AAA developers have noticed this, and that sort of thought process will not work in a true sandbox game.
What you end up with are games being designed that attempt to isolate the different playstyles so player A doesnt get thier exploration in player B's PvP while player C's dungeon raid is instanced so his party has the whole dungeon to themselves with zero chance of interuption from either A, B, or other C's. This is very hard to do from a design standpoint while also making all playstyle's happy.
This is why in my opinion TESO was not designed as a huge open virtual "world" like a lot of you seem to have wanted.
Most MMORPG games will continue to be designed this way until people can accept the possibility that their gaming session could be interupted or inconvenienced in some way by other people within the gaming world.
Originally posted by Iselin Indeed - the 'DAoC or bust' hypetrain is overloaded with this one-track-minded bull.
This thread originally began with "UO or bust", so, it's only fair.
Aren't we all getting all pretty tired of one-true-game idealists, in general?
ESO just made the mistake of pitting them against each other, within the same title.
"I thought this would be just like Skyrim" "No, it's going to be just like DAoC" "Why can't it be more like SWG" "Death Penalty Rawr!!" "That's now how the only True sandbox (UO) did it" "WoW clone!" (everyone's got a horse in this race, somewhere)
Maybe it'd be best to stop trying to force it into some other game's mold, entirely. That require Zeni to just ignore the ebb and flow of rabble rabble, and make ESO. Then everyone can pick up their soapboxes, and head home.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by Icewhite Originally posted by Iselin Indeed - the 'DAoC or bust' hypetrain is overloaded with this one-track-minded bull.
It won't be forced anywhere of course - and I don't mind that it has any of the elements it has;
3 way mass PvP
Lore stretched out of shape but not broken, broken...
I only care about the faction lock and the clumsy ass restrictive way they have done it. If you are going to bang on about an IP, and about an MMO of an IP - probably best to try to preserve as many of the things that are universally acknowledged to make that IP great?
Surely that should have been in the manifesto day 1...
... that the focus came so hard onto making a recreation of DAoC PvP and in the process lost track of a central strength of the IP is just bad design.
It is the work of the truly bias to characterise my posts as 'anti-DAoC', 'anti-PvP' or to characterise me as a 'one-true-game-idealist'.
I was pleased to see the IP made into an MMO...
... until I realised that half the gameworld would not be available to me - and the cascade of issues this would cause.
Just FYI... you're not quoting me. That was something he said in another thread he tried to derail by essentially calling the ex-DAoC people discussing RvR there elitist. This thread: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/375861/page/2
I just messed-up the formatting when I did a quick copy and paste on my iPad.
For all I know, the RvR they're designing may play totally different than the way DAoC did it. It's the people who are whining about DAoC supposedly taking over and ruinning this IP that are forcing that connection. The TES fundamentalists.
TESO is going to be TESO and in many different ways it will probably remind you of 20 other MMOs. MMOs borrow heavily from things that came before. That's neither good nor bad although it can be done well or badly...we'll just have to see once there is something to play.
Originally posted by Caliburn101 I was pleased to see the IP made into an MMO... ... until I realised that halfte gameworld would not be available to me - and the cascade of issues this would cause.
My son just told me he bought into the beta (signed up for, I'm guessing). I suspect he's expecting Skyrim, given how many hours he spent on Skyrim.
I made no comment, except "it probably won't be much like you think"--because, it doesn't matter what he thinks. Odds are good that every audience sub-segment is going to be nothing but unhappy it's not just like pick-your-something they've already played.
Originally posted by Icewhite Originally posted by Caliburn101 I was pleased to see the IP made into an MMO... ... until I realised that halfte gameworld would not be available to me - and the cascade of issues this would cause.
I myself wll be playing the beta if I get a spot - I don't criticise what I haven't enough information about...
... which is what I am regularly accused of even though my one gripe so far is lack of freedom to explore - which is definately confirmed as central to game-play by the devs themselves.
I often think people on here can't read, and if they can, they can't dissect and critique.
One despairs at the future of a world with such undisciplined and illogical people in it.
I also think you are right about the flip side - those wanting a particular 'template'. Personally I never believed THAT would happen, and I don't need it myself, but I get accused of that too.
Despite the fact I don't think the devs have taken due consideration of one of the IP's core attractions - the sense of freedom - I think there is still a good enough chance the game will be good in other respects, including the quality of the PvP. But the 'invisible walls', or whatever they are going to do to enforce their edict on non-movement will be a constant irritation.
Anyway - pudding, eating etc.
Almost no developer has the balls to go out and say "LET`S CREATE A NICHE GAME".
They all want to be next blockbuster hyped up MMO du jour, therefore catering to the safemode carebears is the most logical approach, because - let´s face it - those are the majority.
You prefer niche like I do? Play EvE, play Age of Conan on a Blood&Glory server, play Darkfall, play TSW.
Or wait for Star Citizen, Elite Dangerous, World of Darkness.
ESO will be a mainstream MMO, maybe fun, maybe not, but certainly hyped and marketed to the masses.
Secrets of Dragon?s Spine Trailer.. ! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwT9cFVQCMw
Best MMOs ever played: Ultima, EvE, SW Galaxies, Age of Conan, The Secret Worldhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2X_SbZCHpc&t=21s.
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Originally posted by Iselin Originally posted by Icewhite Originally posted by Iselin Indeed - the 'DAoC or bust' hypetrain is overloaded with this one-track-minded bull.
It is the DAoC fans who are doing that...
THEY characterise the game as theirs...
... and for some inexplicable reason, across various threads often regard the TES fans complaints about lack of freedom to explore (NOT the PvP model in any other respect) as a threat to 'their' MMO because it is 'already in the game and isn't going to change', coupled with the assumption that the only way it can be fixed is to 'ruin' what a significant number of them firmly see as the DAoC-style PvP.
Try to put the cart before the horse all you like, you are still complaining about a reaction to established facts and opinions, not an instigation - which invalidates nearly everything you have said to the contrary.
Would it be unfair of me to predict there will be no admission as to the fundamental error made in you this respect?
I'll try to keep an open mind.
I didn't characterise the PvP model as DAoC style - others did.
I didn't say that model would be bad - quite the contrary.
I did say these elements should be integrated in a way which doesn't take something that's good about the IP away.
I would like the game to have freedom and factional PvP - so everyone has a dose of what they want.
In all this complaining about my opinions - I am yet to see what yours truly are.
Would you like to share? This will certainly be the last time I try to bring the discussion back to the issues rather than as you have so far elected to do - concentrate on the perceived flaws of the people discussing them with the kind of casually insulting language you wouldn't use face to face, so please do take the opportunity presented.
Originally posted by FromHell Almost no developer has the balls to go out and say "LET`S CREATE A NICHE GAME". They all want to be next blockbuster hyped up MMO du jour, therefore catering to the safemode carebears is the most logical approach, because - let´s face it - those are the majority. You prefer niche like I do? Play EvE, play Age of Conan on a Blood&Glory server, play Darkfall, play TSW. Or wait for Star Citizen, Elite Dangerous, World of Darkness. ESO will be a mainstream MMO, maybe fun, maybe not, but certainly hyped and marketed to the masses.
Watched others play Eve extensively and myself on a PvP server in AoC for a long time before I quit in disgust at Funcoms attitude.
Darkfall lacks variety.
TSW is a Funcom product and I would rather play a Brian May guitar solo using my own bowels...
Mainstream doesn't mean bad by default - and niche/PvP doesn't mean good either.
Case by case is the way to go.
Originally posted by Caliburn101
Try to put the cart beofre the horse all you like, you are still complaining about a reaction to established facts and opinions, not an instigation - which invalidates nearly everything you have said to the contrary.
In all this complaining about my opinions - I am yet to see what yours truly is.
Would you like to share?
No it isn't, it's you who are trying to drive a wedge between what you consider to be two camps: DAoC vs. TES in everything you post...over, and over... In case you haven't figured it out by now, most of us in this forum are fans of both TES and DAoC. Not opposing factions as you would like to characterize it.
Your exact quote in that thread was:
"The obvious implication of this thread's title is of course this: DAoC Veterans Welcome - Elder Scrolls Veterans irrelevant.."
Want more? Here's what you said in another post:
"I take it to be self-evident (as do a great many other people - on both sides of the argument) that DAoC design choices have been forced into the mix and important TES elements have been erased from the game due to the way they have intergrated it. It is as clear as the nose on my face."
Your premise is obvious: DAoC elements are making TESO worse. Nothing wrong with having that opinion although, there comes a point when you need to stop flogging and burry the damn horse.
The problem is that you're pointing fingers at anyone who has the nerve to say positive things about DAoC RvR here, wants to have a discussion about that or, heavens forbid, thinks that the RvR addition is a damn good thing.
Originally posted by Nemesis7884 i think there is only 3 ways future mmo's can be successful - either by being rather a multiplayer/online game in the sense of a pvp heavy game (or cooparative) where the focus is rather on "matches", by being a very "segregated" themepark mmo which is heavily instanced but where players have the tool to make new content themselves or as a ture sandbox game...for that reason i would bet money on teso to fail...
You can keep your money as long as it is unclear how to determine a failure.
It takes one to know one.
Originally posted by DavisFlight Originally posted by asmkm22 As much as I want to rally around your flag or whatever, I'm pretty sure they just said something like "we just wanted to create WoW with Elder Scrolls lore."
Games like Eve and UO have more subs than most so called "sure shot success" themepark games.
But sandboxes don't work! Neither do WOW clones, as seen by the complete failure of all the WoW clones of the last 8 years.
WoW clones don't work not because of the so called "themepark" model but because those games suck. WoW does pretty much everything better than those "clones". But more importantly most people are not willing to pay sub fees anymore so at the moment there are extremely few games which are still P2P. The P2P model doesn't work anymore. It only seems to work for EVE and WoW. But saying that games which are themeparks cannot succeed is just wrong. I mean the most popular MMO of all time is a themepark.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Originally posted by miagisan mmorpg players have no idea what they want. Period.
Thread should have ended here.
To the OP:
I would actually say the opposite. When's the last time a AAA sandbox MMO was actually developed? It's been years if not a decade almost. Look at all the non Sandbox MMOs and look which ones make it....maybe 2 or 3? Every other one seems to disintigrate.
I would say the market is ready for a AAA Sandbox. There are plenty of us Pre Tram. MMO players who would leave the garbage that is out there now to play a quality game with Freedom, options and doesn't hold your hand the whole time.
Dragnon - Guildmaster - Albion Central Bank in Albion Online