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People should stop and think..

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  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 9,624Member Rare


    Originally posted by seigard

    That is pretty much what I was saying
     

    It's not, you just miss the point again and misunderstand the point.

    Your "they are still trying to come up with a ''wow killer'', "half polished games","the last one turned out to be bullshit" and " They arent risking their money they are creating a fucked up market which gets them fast money but kills the market in long the long run" are all your baseless assumptions/opinions you "dont have to do researchs for"...yet, that does not make them true.


    You just bash things you dislike/disagree with, regardless of reason or substance in your claims.

  • seigardseigard Posts: 285Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gdemami
      Originally posted by seigard

    That is pretty much what I was saying
     

     

    It's not, you just miss the point again and misunderstand the point.

    Your "they are still trying to come up with a ''wow killer'', "half polished games","the last one turned out to be bullshit" and " They arent risking their money they are creating a fucked up market which gets them fast money but kills the market in long the long run" are all your baseless assumptions/opinions you "dont have to do researchs for"...yet, that does not make them true.


    You just bash things you dislike/disagree with, regardless of reason or substance in your claims.

    They are my opinions as they come out of my mouth, I never said I researched all of these and I still dont think you need to research something to understand this, as I said it is just basic reasoning. Also I never said they are true for you, these are the truth for me.

    ''You just bash things you dislike/disagree with'' I only see you doing that on this thread, I am giving you my reasons for thinking that this genre is going bad because they are acting irresponsible on the long run yet you cant give a single reason why you think the otherwise, you just bash because you disagree which pretty much makes you nothing but a fanboy of the whole market which I have never seen before.

    Where are your researchs for not agreeing with what I'm saying?

    As I just said no need to bash this is a discussion and all I am asking for is friendly people who agree, if still have hope and you really like where the genre is going you should stop wasting time here and you should start funding indies into creating games that will last a month before they shut down

  • seigardseigard Posts: 285Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    This is one of the side effects of the gaming industry becoming like Hollywood.  You get a small handful of huge publishers who won't fund anything that's not a sequal or cheap cash grab.  Indie projects come out, but still have a hard time gaining much attention because, despite how much people hate the bloated Hollywood movies, they love the high production values. Games used to be made by gamers.  Now they are mostly just made by one of 3 types of people, not including indie: 1.  People with backgrounds in marketing, rather than development.  They can sing and dance well enough to get people excited, and get funding, but that's it.  Games pretty much can't live up to the expectations these guys set. 2.  People who may very well be gamers at heart, but are more likely to just roll over and let the bean counters dictate where the game will go.  These guys basically have no self-respect, and are just in it for the paycheck. 3.  Old school developers who can basically manhandle a team into doing what they want on reputation alone.  They're like the George Lucas's of the gaming world, who release one good hit and go on thinking every idea they have is gold, and that anything bad that happens is someone elses fault.  The entire Mythic team is probably the best example of this, although most MMO's seem to have one of these guys in charge.  Part of the problem is that the big publishers that are now controlling everything really seem to love these guys, which makes them nearly impervious to losing their jobs.   At some point, indie games will finally catch up to the AAA stuff enough that they'll become viable for more than just quirky niche games.  Once that happens, I think the health of the industry will improve substantially.  We're just about 5 years away from that.

    Mythic could have created nice stuff if they didnt give up so quickly blaming other factors for the loss of hype, I'm having hard time trusting camelot unchained after that, the idea that its going for pure rvr is horrible itself

  • AxehiltAxehilt Posts: 10,208Member Rare
    If you want indie-style innovation, you're going to find it in indie-sized games.
     
    If you buy corporate-sized games, you're going to find corporate-size innovation.
     
    Guess what size 99% of MMORPGs are (by definition).
     
    It's probably also worth clearing up that good PVP is not going to be found in RPGs with vertical progression (characters grow stronger), so if you want PVP then start playing the genres which excel at PVP: RTS, MOBA, Fighting, FPS, etc.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • KarteliKarteli Providence, PAPosts: 2,646Member
    Originally posted by seigard
    Originally posted by Gdemami
      Originally posted by seigard

    That is pretty much what I was saying
     

     

    It's not, you just miss the point again and misunderstand the point.

    Your "they are still trying to come up with a ''wow killer'', "half polished games","the last one turned out to be bullshit" and " They arent risking their money they are creating a fucked up market which gets them fast money but kills the market in long the long run" are all your baseless assumptions/opinions you "dont have to do researchs for"...yet, that does not make them true.


    You just bash things you dislike/disagree with, regardless of reason or substance in your claims.

    They are my opinions as they come out of my mouth, I never said I researched all of these and I still dont think you need to research something to understand this, as I said it is just basic reasoning. Also I never said they are true for you, these are the truth for me.

    ''You just bash things you dislike/disagree with'' I only see you doing that on this thread, I am giving you my reasons for thinking that this genre is going bad because they are acting irresponsible on the long run yet you cant give a single reason why you think the otherwise, you just bash because you disagree which pretty much makes you nothing but a fanboy of the whole market which I have never seen before.

    Where are your researchs for not agreeing with what I'm saying?

    As I just said no need to bash this is a discussion and all I am asking for is friendly people who agree, if still have hope and you really like where the genre is going you should stop wasting time here and you should start funding indies into creating games that will last a month before they shut down

    Multiple parts, in COLORS:

    Isn't that non-discussion, if you are only asking for people who agree with you?

     

    Although I also don't particularly like where the genre is going, telling people who disagree to "stop wasting time here" isn't going to get a balanced synopsis of MMORPG's. =D

     

    I'm really not sure where you stand.  The genre is bad.  Indies won't last a month before they shut down ... Is everyone doomed? lol  /boggle

    Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
    Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  • seigardseigard Posts: 285Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Karteli
    Originally posted by seigard
    Originally posted by Gdemami
      Originally posted by seigard

    That is pretty much what I was saying
     

     

    It's not, you just miss the point again and misunderstand the point.

    Your "they are still trying to come up with a ''wow killer'', "half polished games","the last one turned out to be bullshit" and " They arent risking their money they are creating a fucked up market which gets them fast money but kills the market in long the long run" are all your baseless assumptions/opinions you "dont have to do researchs for"...yet, that does not make them true.


    You just bash things you dislike/disagree with, regardless of reason or substance in your claims.

    They are my opinions as they come out of my mouth, I never said I researched all of these and I still dont think you need to research something to understand this, as I said it is just basic reasoning. Also I never said they are true for you, these are the truth for me.

    ''You just bash things you dislike/disagree with'' I only see you doing that on this thread, I am giving you my reasons for thinking that this genre is going bad because they are acting irresponsible on the long run yet you cant give a single reason why you think the otherwise, you just bash because you disagree which pretty much makes you nothing but a fanboy of the whole market which I have never seen before.

    Where are your researchs for not agreeing with what I'm saying?

    As I just said no need to bash this is a discussion and all I am asking for is friendly people who agree, if still have hope and you really like where the genre is going you should stop wasting time here and you should start funding indies into creating games that will last a month before they shut down

    Isn't that non-discussion, if you are only asking for people who agree with you?

     

    Although I also don't particularly like where the genre is going, telling people who disagree to "stop wasting time here" isn't going to get a balanced synopsis of MMORPG's. =D

    I am looking for friendly people yeah I couldnt state that correct. People can disagree but I mean I dont want to talk about how I dont do research about something that is my opinion which I came up to by questioning. That is not disagreeing that is plain bashing for no reason, he cant even state a reason why he disagrees with me

    I know it wont, I just dont have much faith in the market as the ''new players'' who are supposed to make it better are actually ruinng the new stuff 

    I dont stand on a specific point nor I believe one has to because this is not like a black and white thing, I strongly support indies that are promising yet they turn out to be less that what they offered, they promise more than what they can give for funds which is very misleading. I know that I really dont support devs who arent into gaming because as I said they are making quick money and blowing the system up

  • KarteliKarteli Providence, PAPosts: 2,646Member
    Originally posted by seigard
    Originally posted by Karteli
    Originally posted by seigard
    Originally posted by Gdemami
      Originally posted by seigard

    That is pretty much what I was saying
     

     

    It's not, you just miss the point again and misunderstand the point.

    Your "they are still trying to come up with a ''wow killer'', "half polished games","the last one turned out to be bullshit" and " They arent risking their money they are creating a fucked up market which gets them fast money but kills the market in long the long run" are all your baseless assumptions/opinions you "dont have to do researchs for"...yet, that does not make them true.


    You just bash things you dislike/disagree with, regardless of reason or substance in your claims.

    They are my opinions as they come out of my mouth, I never said I researched all of these and I still dont think you need to research something to understand this, as I said it is just basic reasoning. Also I never said they are true for you, these are the truth for me.

    ''You just bash things you dislike/disagree with'' I only see you doing that on this thread, I am giving you my reasons for thinking that this genre is going bad because they are acting irresponsible on the long run yet you cant give a single reason why you think the otherwise, you just bash because you disagree which pretty much makes you nothing but a fanboy of the whole market which I have never seen before.

    Where are your researchs for not agreeing with what I'm saying?

    As I just said no need to bash this is a discussion and all I am asking for is friendly people who agree, if still have hope and you really like where the genre is going you should stop wasting time here and you should start funding indies into creating games that will last a month before they shut down

    Isn't that non-discussion, if you are only asking for people who agree with you?

     

    Although I also don't particularly like where the genre is going, telling people who disagree to "stop wasting time here" isn't going to get a balanced synopsis of MMORPG's. =D

    I am looking for friendly people yeah I couldnt state that correct. People can disagree but I mean I dont want to talk about how I dont do research about something that is my opinion which I came up to by questioning. That is not disagreeing that is plain bashing for no reason, he cant even state a reason why he disagrees with me

    I know it wont, I just dont have much faith in the market as the ''new players'' who are supposed to make it better are actually ruinng the new stuff 

    I dont stand on a specific point nor I believe one has to because this is not like a black and white thing, I strongly support indies that are promising yet they turn out to be less that what they offered, they promise more than what they can give for funds which is very misleading. I know that I really dont support devs who arent into gaming because as I said they are making quick money and blowing the system up

    I know what you mean.  For what it's worth, poviding proof or research analysis isn't always necessary when you have a gut feeling for something.  Anyone and Everyone can be a reviewer, and I think you'll find more people agreeing with you than not.

     

    Don't let the other guy get you worked up.  As someone with a gaming mind and opinion on a forum, research isn't always necessary on your part, unless you are trying to have an objective technical matter-of-fact dissertation =D .. relaying experience and observation is a pretty good argument in itself.

    Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
    Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  • seigardseigard Posts: 285Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Karteli
    Originally posted by seigard
    Originally posted by Karteli
    Originally posted by seigard
    Originally posted by Gdemami
      Originally posted by seigard

    That is pretty much what I was saying
     

     

    It's not, you just miss the point again and misunderstand the point.

    Your "they are still trying to come up with a ''wow killer'', "half polished games","the last one turned out to be bullshit" and " They arent risking their money they are creating a fucked up market which gets them fast money but kills the market in long the long run" are all your baseless assumptions/opinions you "dont have to do researchs for"...yet, that does not make them true.


    You just bash things you dislike/disagree with, regardless of reason or substance in your claims.

    They are my opinions as they come out of my mouth, I never said I researched all of these and I still dont think you need to research something to understand this, as I said it is just basic reasoning. Also I never said they are true for you, these are the truth for me.

    ''You just bash things you dislike/disagree with'' I only see you doing that on this thread, I am giving you my reasons for thinking that this genre is going bad because they are acting irresponsible on the long run yet you cant give a single reason why you think the otherwise, you just bash because you disagree which pretty much makes you nothing but a fanboy of the whole market which I have never seen before.

    Where are your researchs for not agreeing with what I'm saying?

    As I just said no need to bash this is a discussion and all I am asking for is friendly people who agree, if still have hope and you really like where the genre is going you should stop wasting time here and you should start funding indies into creating games that will last a month before they shut down

    Isn't that non-discussion, if you are only asking for people who agree with you?

     

    Although I also don't particularly like where the genre is going, telling people who disagree to "stop wasting time here" isn't going to get a balanced synopsis of MMORPG's. =D

    I am looking for friendly people yeah I couldnt state that correct. People can disagree but I mean I dont want to talk about how I dont do research about something that is my opinion which I came up to by questioning. That is not disagreeing that is plain bashing for no reason, he cant even state a reason why he disagrees with me

    I know it wont, I just dont have much faith in the market as the ''new players'' who are supposed to make it better are actually ruinng the new stuff 

    I dont stand on a specific point nor I believe one has to because this is not like a black and white thing, I strongly support indies that are promising yet they turn out to be less that what they offered, they promise more than what they can give for funds which is very misleading. I know that I really dont support devs who arent into gaming because as I said they are making quick money and blowing the system up

    I know what you mean.  For what it's worth, poviding proof or research analysis isn't always necessary when you have a gut feeling for something.  Anyone and Everyone can be a reviewer, and I think you'll find more people agreeing with you than not.

     

    Don't let the other guy get you worked up.  As someone with a gaming mind and opinion on a forum, research isn't always necessary on your part, unless you are trying to have an objective technical matter-of-fact dissertation =D .. relaying experience and observation is a pretty good argument in itself.

    Hahah yeah indeed, too much thinking about this, I am almost certain that upcoming stuff like teso and wildstar will be the same story of disappointment, teso could even bring a bad reputation for its IP which would be very bad for such successful serie.

    I am kinda curious about archeage though, we'll see

  • cybertruckercybertrucker Pensacola, FLPosts: 1,119Member Uncommon

    Companies still do innovative things with new releases. Some of the really new games are actually fun in many different ways.

    The problem I my opinion stems from this.

    1. Games today for the most part have lost a lot of the depth that was found in older games. 

    2. They are build more as a solo game than as a multiplayer game.  Have some solo oriented content is fine. Having 90% of the game soloable is not.

    3. Automization of all the grouping tools while innovative have taken the socialization out. No one talks in these types of game that have this feature. And it's becoming more common. Queu up and run with a bunch of bots. Many times you might as well be. 

    4. There is no sense of achievement. The magic items don't seem magical anymore. Items are thrown out like candy these days. I was level 24 in EQ when I got my first magical robes. I still remember what they were FBR..remember those? I do.. That was back a month after the game launched. I couldn't tell you what my ele is wearing currently in GW2. Everyone seems to want things for nothing. Which leads me to my final point.

    5. Community. Most games today cater to the worst crowd. The people who want something for nothing. They are designed for people who believe they are entitled. Entitled for free entertainment. Entitled to easily acquired uber loot. Entitled to fast leveling. Which goes back to my first point, lack of depth.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 26,601Member Rare
    Originally posted by cybertrucker

    1. Games today for the most part have lost a lot of the depth that was found in older games. 

    Disagree. EQ has very little depth in combat, compared to even just a ARPG like Diablo 3. There is no proc, no CDs, no synergies in skills (like WW type builds), and no build diversity.

    I don't believe older is better, nor more fun.

  • seigardseigard Posts: 285Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by cybertrucker
    Companies still do innovative things with new releases. Some of the really new games are actually fun in many different ways. The problem I my opinion stems from this. 1. Games today for the most part have lost a lot of the depth that was found in older games.  2. They are build more as a solo game than as a multiplayer game.  Have some solo oriented content is fine. Having 90% of the game soloable is not. 3. Automization of all the grouping tools while innovative have taken the socialization out. No one talks in these types of game that have this feature. And it's becoming more common. Queu up and run with a bunch of bots. Many times you might as well be.  4. There is no sense of achievement. The magic items don't seem magical anymore. Items are thrown out like candy these days. I was level 24 in EQ when I got my first magical robes. I still remember what they were FBR..remember those? I do.. That was back a month after the game launched. I couldn't tell you what my ele is wearing currently in GW2. Everyone seems to want things for nothing. Which leads me to my final point. 5. Community. Most games today cater to the worst crowd. The people who want something for nothing. They are designed for people who believe they are entitled. Entitled for free entertainment. Entitled to easily acquired uber loot. Entitled to fast leveling. Which goes back to my first point, lack of depth.

    gw2 can be a great example including all those 5

    I miss the lore and community more than the gameplay mostly but they are all must-have for success

    Altough I dont like many ways of gw2 I really like the devs who are giving their time to a b2p game more than p2p devs do

  • KarteliKarteli Providence, PAPosts: 2,646Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by cybertrucker

    1. Games today for the most part have lost a lot of the depth that was found in older games. 

    Disagree. EQ has very little depth in combat, compared to even just a ARPG like Diablo 3. There is no proc, no CDs, no synergies in skills (like WW type builds), and no build diversity.

    I don't believe older is better, nor more fun.

    EQ is stat-resource oriented (EQ1 especially, since you didn't differentiate).  It's designed around group play modes.

     

    Solo players will get their face smeared into the ground against same-level mobs.  Strategies were evolved from group mechanics and raid tactics.  Comparing a single player game like D3 to EQ is blasphemy :P

     

    Older games not more fun than single player "online" games.  You've identified your demographic =D .. it's not a bad demographic, just one different from those who played those older games.  The various preferences to gaming are clashing however, and developers are asking themselves, which gamer category is going to land us the most sales?

    Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
    Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,698Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Karteli
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by cybertrucker

    1. Games today for the most part have lost a lot of the depth that was found in older games. 

    Disagree. EQ has very little depth in combat, compared to even just a ARPG like Diablo 3. There is no proc, no CDs, no synergies in skills (like WW type builds), and no build diversity.

    I don't believe older is better, nor more fun.

    EQ is stat-resource oriented (EQ1 especially, since you didn't differentiate).  It's designed around group play modes.

     

    Solo players will get their face smeared into the ground against same-level mobs.  Strategies were evolved from group mechanics and raid tactics.  Comparing a single player game like D3 to EQ is blasphemy :P

     

    Older games not more fun than single player "online" games.  You've identified your demographic =D .. it's not a bad demographic, just one different from those who played those older games.

     And yet people solo'd to cap all the time against same level mobs with necro, monk, bard, paly, beast, sk...

  • firefly2003firefly2003 Los Angeles, CAPosts: 2,517Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by seigard
    Originally posted by kakasaki
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Or there's just a whole generation of gamers who don't know that they're old and their opinions don't matter anymore. New games are aimed at newer gamers who don't expect so much because they haven't done and seen everything before. Every year there is a new group of gamers joining the market that this is all new for.

    Wow, that was a bit demeaning. Regardless, while true for video games in general, the average age of MMO player is 26 with less than 25% or players under the age of 19. Sooo their key demo kinda trends older.

    +1

    Don't forget the avgerage gamer in general is 37-42...


  • KarteliKarteli Providence, PAPosts: 2,646Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Karteli
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by cybertrucker

    1. Games today for the most part have lost a lot of the depth that was found in older games. 

    Disagree. EQ has very little depth in combat, compared to even just a ARPG like Diablo 3. There is no proc, no CDs, no synergies in skills (like WW type builds), and no build diversity.

    I don't believe older is better, nor more fun.

    EQ is stat-resource oriented (EQ1 especially, since you didn't differentiate).  It's designed around group play modes.

     

    Solo players will get their face smeared into the ground against same-level mobs.  Strategies were evolved from group mechanics and raid tactics.  Comparing a single player game like D3 to EQ is blasphemy :P

     

    Older games not more fun than single player "online" games.  You've identified your demographic =D .. it's not a bad demographic, just one different from those who played those older games.

     And yet people solo'd to cap all the time against same level mobs with necro, monk, bard, paly, beast, sk...

    Only some types of mobs.  Not every type.. remember the mobs who would cast summon to put you right next to them ..

     

    As for melee, I never really saw that happen pre 2005, when nerfs started going in to dumb the game down.  Soloing was popular in select spots where it was allowed via kiting however (pre-2005).  XP was the main reward, no good drops from those spots to protect the economy (with exclusion to very rare nameds - 1% or less spawn rates?).

     

    And someone who camped long enough at least deserved that low-medium quality item reward, lol

     

    But overall, even druids (which you left out), soloing wasn't that common.  It took a huge learning curve and a bunch of patience.  The few main spots were not heavily camped or contested.  Very few people solo'ed, compared to the games population.  Death and XP loss was always possible, because of an unexpected bad pull or a mob spawning.

    Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
    Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,698Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Karteli
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Karteli
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by cybertrucker

    1. Games today for the most part have lost a lot of the depth that was found in older games. 

    Disagree. EQ has very little depth in combat, compared to even just a ARPG like Diablo 3. There is no proc, no CDs, no synergies in skills (like WW type builds), and no build diversity.

    I don't believe older is better, nor more fun.

    EQ is stat-resource oriented (EQ1 especially, since you didn't differentiate).  It's designed around group play modes.

     

    Solo players will get their face smeared into the ground against same-level mobs.  Strategies were evolved from group mechanics and raid tactics.  Comparing a single player game like D3 to EQ is blasphemy :P

     

    Older games not more fun than single player "online" games.  You've identified your demographic =D .. it's not a bad demographic, just one different from those who played those older games.

     And yet people solo'd to cap all the time against same level mobs with necro, monk, bard, paly, beast, sk...

    Only some types of mobs.  Not every type.. remember the mobs who would cast summon to put you right next to them ..

     

    As for melee, I never really saw that happen pre 2005, when nerfs started going in to dumb the game down.  Soloing was popular in select spots where it was allowed via kiting however (pre-2005).  XP was the main reward, no good drops from those spots to protect the economy (with exclusion to very rare nameds - 1% or less spawn rates?).

     

    And someone who camped long enough at least deserved that low-medium quality item reward, lol

     

    But overall, even druids (which you left out), soloing wasn't that common.  It took a huge learning curve and a bunch of patience.  The few main spots were not heavily camped or contested.  Very few people solo'ed, compared to the games population.  Death and XP loss was always possible, because of an unexpected bad pull or a mob spawning.

    There were definately some mobs that were overpowered for their level.

    Shudders at D'vinn.

    And what was the name of that guy at the WC crossroads?

    I forgot about druids actually - they were the first I took to mid 30's. 

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 6,127Member Rare
    Originally posted by Kaneth
    Originally posted by seigard
    Originally posted by Karteli
    Much of the passion with game lovers making games is gone these days, as big corporations can easily afford to brainwash the community into believing whatever they want them to, via huge advertising and viral campaigns.  Take into consideration that many don't actively discuss gaming, but just pick up on a game ad video on the frontpage of YouTube, or a glowing (paid-for?) review.   Not to imply that the people working for game companies aren't gamers or enthusiasts, but the ones in charge who pull the strings leaves players wondering.   GW2 did a nice job creating a graphically pretty world with artwork and a smooth engine, but the world was unfortunately very shallow.  Graphics vs Gameplay .. many people are more persuaded by awesome high-res graphics, when to me all I needed was a smooth engine and good gameplay .. if that makes sense. For example, when Sonic the Hedgehog first came out on the Genesis, it's graphics detail wasn't superior, but it was unique with gameplay and an engine that could support much higher framerates.  It's all give and take in games.   I guess I could be bold and throw out there that there seem to be 3 main game elements .. (1) graphics detail, pretty visuals (2) graphics engine, smooth & fast, and (3) gameplay, fun & deep ..  Among the currently top MMORPG's (in my eyes): GW2 has graphics detail and graphics engine SWTOR has graphics detail and gameplay WoW has graphics engine and gameplay   Perhaps the next step will be to have all 3, instead of just 2 at once.

    I agree that the whole passion is gone, it wasnt even a '' market'' when the mmo genre was actually successful

    Then the big companies took over and kept on ruining game after game

    Well, big companies didn't ruin the genre. SoE was in it with EQ, and then Blizzard entered the market in 2004. Everyone, including smaller companies with mmos under their belt (I'm looking at you Turbine), attempted to copy the WoW formula for mmos, and missed the point entirely.

    People wanted to latch on to the cash cow of WoW, but failed to realize that if people want to play WoW, they'll play WoW. Hell, it took until last year with Tera, TSW and GW2 to break the WoW mold, and even then it could be argued that they didn't go far enough.

    As far as I can see though, the largest issue with mmos is the community itself. People whined that every game was like WoW for years, and then they whined when games like GW2 weren't like WoW enough. The players in the genre don't give the industry a clear sense of what they want anymore, not that those in the industry would listen much anymore. The community though is mostly vile and filled with armchair developers who spout out random crap like it's fact.

    At least with the 2012 relases we saw some change, hopefully we will see more change down the road. Ironically, I am willing to bet that Blizzard with Titan will yet again be the ones to change the market the way they did with WoW.

     Not long after WoW was released I went out with friends for a fun night of drinking and such.  It ended up being several groups of people getting together and it included a number of devs from a few companies.  There was a lot of talk about dev work and the market and wow dominated the talk.  I was shocked and sadened at these people I knew were already so locked into the blizzard mentality or at least the feeling their companies had to do it like blizzard.

    This microtransaction business model shouldn't be a surprise.  Cost of entry has been a sticking point for at least 20 years or so.  When people were complaining about paying dollars per hour for AOL NWN and TSN TSOY, the sub model came into existance.  It seems natural that they would try something new as at least an experiment.  When it pays off, they will milk it as hard as they can.

    If you look at the film industry, one production company starts working on something and others rush to produce their own version.  This is why we have a number of recent lincoln projects.  We know what the success of Marvel films is doing to hollywood.  Expect more microtransactions like it or not.

    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"



  • aspekxaspekx Brandon, FLPosts: 2,167Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BlitzVF
    The invisible hand of the market will fix this, if it is indeed a problem.

    ^ya. just like god, or fate, or the pastafarian spaghetti god.

    "There are at least two kinds of games.
    One could be called finite, the other infinite.
    A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
    an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
    Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  • maccarthur2004maccarthur2004 SPosts: 511Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by seigard
    Everyone behind the creation of recent mmos should just think about the consequences of creating a half polished game. They do nothing but raise the bar and our expectations will never be pleased by the dissapointment coming after hype. For example gw2, they did a great job but pvp is meaningless and not fun so people will try to look for a game that will fulfill their needs of pvp and even if they find one they probably will have hard time adapting to the game as their expectations have been lifted by everything else gw2 did good. Every mmo company releases their games in a state where it doesnt fulfill what you could want from a ''complete'' mmo. This is the success of wow, they were there before the expectations were this high and most importantly they had a game which appeald to most of people just like a ''complete'' game would...

    I never understood the hype around GW2. His predecessor were a full lobby game that barely can be called a mmorpg, so GW2 never deceived me.

    In the other hand, i hyped a little about TERA (in the start). :(



  • ToxiaToxia Posts: 1,306Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Karteli
    Much of the passion with game lovers making games is gone these days, as big corporations can easily afford to brainwash the community into believing whatever they want them to, via huge advertising and viral campaigns.  Take into consideration that many don't actively discuss gaming, but just pick up on a game ad video on the frontpage of YouTube, or a glowing (paid-for?) review.   Not to imply that the people working for game companies aren't gamers or enthusiasts, but the ones in charge who pull the strings leaves players wondering.   GW2 did a nice job creating a graphically pretty world with artwork and a smooth engine, but the world was unfortunately very shallow.  Graphics vs Gameplay .. many people are more persuaded by awesome high-res graphics, when to me all I needed was a smooth engine and good gameplay .. if that makes sense. For example, when Sonic the Hedgehog first came out on the Genesis, it's graphics detail wasn't superior, but it was unique with gameplay and an engine that could support much higher framerates.  It's all give and take in games.   I guess I could be bold and throw out there that there seem to be 3 main game elements .. (1) graphics detail, pretty visuals (2) graphics engine, smooth & fast, and (3) gameplay, fun & deep ..  Among the currently top MMORPG's (in my eyes): GW2 has graphics detail and graphics engine SWTOR has graphics detail and gameplay WoW has graphics engine and gameplay   Perhaps the next step will be to have all 3, instead of just 2 at once.

    Your colors do not match sir. My OCD is stabbing you at this very moment.

    The Deep Web is sca-ry.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 14,247Member Rare
    Originally posted by seigard

    Then the big companies took over and kept on ruining game after game

    AC - MIcrosoft

    EQ - SONY

    UO - EA

     

    What companies were bigger than those?

    The big companies are what made the genre anything worth noticing (*cue the confused idiot that brings up The Realm and M59*).

     

    People should stop and think.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,004Member Uncommon

    Maybe the OP should send a resume as a game designer. 

    Let me put it this way, there is something called budget and techical issue.

    Have youe ever wonder why warhammer only have 2 faction?  Ya it's called budget.

    Camelot Unchain don't have that much budget to do everything.

    You said mmorpg dont' need a wow killer and turned around say we need mmorpg to focus on many things.  Ya but that's what make wow great isn't it? it did focus on many thing.  And that's what mmorpg company is trying to match.

    And going back to GW2.  In GW2, all the "condition build" is useless.  And the reason why?  Because bleed can't go over 25 stack.  And you know why bleed can't go over 25 stack?  ya budget.  As stupid as it sounds, half of the character build in GW2 is useless because of budget.

    If you meant to tell me the game studio "is purposely" releasing bad product, let me rest assure you their not.  They tried.  They just didn't do good enough.

     

  • seigardseigard Posts: 285Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by laokoko
    Maybe the OP should send a resume as a game designer.  Let me put it this way, there is something called budget and techical issue. Have youe ever wonder why warhammer only have 2 faction?  Ya it's called budget. Camelot Unchain don't have that much budget to do everything. You said mmorpg dont' need a wow killer and turned around say we need mmorpg to focus on many things.  Ya but that's what make wow great isn't it? it did focus on many thing.  And that's what mmorpg company is trying to match. And going back to GW2.  In GW2, all the "condition build" is useless.  And the reason why?  Because bleed can't go over 25 stack.  And you know why bleed can't go over 25 stack?  ya budget.  As stupid as it sounds, half of the character build in GW2 is useless because of budget. If you meant to tell me the game studio "is purposely" releasing bad product, let me rest assure you their not.  They tried.  They just didn't do good enough.  

    I never said they are intentionally creating shitty games, why the hell would they, they just start at something without the budget which you just mentioned, and suddenly you see fuck tons of games around that cand even make ONE good game if you combine their successful parts.

    You dont need to be a game designer to talk about games

    I still dont think there is a need for a wow killer, there could be a game better than wow but as long as the intentions are killing wow then they will be trying to beat wow not fulfill what players want

    Also 25 stack because of budget? come on they release a game that is pretty successful but they cant make new skills or raise the stack ? That has nothing to do with that

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by BlitzVF
    The invisible hand of the market will fix this, if it is indeed a problem.

     

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • pmilespmiles Federal Way, WAPosts: 383Member

    People buy crap because they can.  Whether that is due to creative marketing or just plain stupidity, so long as people are buying, there is no reason to change the formula.  

     

    Instead of blaming the developers, blame the consumers.  They won't make it if you don't buy it.  A little self control or common sense would do a world of wonders for the industry... but alas, all it takes is one to put us all back into that downward spiral.

     

    Your addiction to gaming is your own self-fulfilling prophecy.  If you could just walk away from it... not just one title, but all of them, then you'd have the power to make a change.  Merely switching from one title to another title isn't sending a message at all.  So long as you are willing to try any game, they will make any game.

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