I really liked this one, randomized stuff is very interesting.
I'm really looking forward to see what the game will look like, i'm a Warhammer veteran (played for over 3 years) and really need to get into a RvR game again, one that will be all about grouping with your realm fellas and siege anything you want, wuthout needing to go for dungeon runs that only takes the fun away (at least for me, who loves RvR).
Curious about Kickstart, what are we going to see there? I'm ready to donate and make this game becomes reality!
This isn't hype, this is fate.
Thx to MJ for bringing some fate to the heart of RvR players like me and my fellow War veterans.
Another good one, I like where his ideas are going still. Wouldn't it be funny if you had a critical miss on someone and say you broke your sword, or your bow broke causing you to do half damage, heh. Would be an interesting fight after that. Or perhaps you both have been fighting so long you get fatiqued and just go into a fist fight, lol.
What makes a good fight memorable, is the thrill of not knowing the outcome beforehand. In most games when it comes to pvp I detest the fact that unless I go afk I'll kill a guy a level or two lower. The fact that a newer player has a "puncher's chance" is always good to hear. I don't want predetermined outcomes. I like randomness in combat since I don't like the expected to happen 100% of the time.
Originally posted by tlear I have big reservations about randomess in the combat system, world randomness is great but combat randomness.. not a fan at all.
Yeah i agree. A part of skill in combat should imo be to know if you have the odds on your side, and to know what to do to win (who to target, how to position yourself).
Randomness in encounters and terrain i love tho.
On a side note: I would not mind for you to build your character towards randomness. A trait could be higher chance to critical hit, but also critical failure, and there could be other traits that serve a similar purpose. There could also be some skills that have more random damage than other skills. But imo making it for everyone just seems... pointless. It should rather be a way to build your character.
I like the statement about the land will be affected by players actions. Sounds like there will be areas where magic is powerful and others where it will be almost useless, makes for a good mix for melee characters. Also anything random in a game is always great. If there is a very small chance of having something backfire or miss it always makes it a bit more interesting.
I hope to see a lot of variations in terrains that gives different bonuses/disadvantages/challenges. Desert storms, pitch black forests, ice cold tundras etc.
THe idea of critical missing is nice, it reminds me of some great humorous moments I had playing the first Fallout game. Having a party member critical miss, hit himself, then flee from combat in the very first combat I got into with him in my party and I'm left to take on the enemy alone and barely won.
Hopefully the idea behind it stays in the game an dpeople don't complain too much about it/whine to the point it gets taken out.
Originally posted by Fearum I like the statement about the land will be affected by players actions. Sounds like there will be areas where magic is powerful and others where it will be almost useless, makes for a good mix for melee characters. Also anything random in a game is always great. If there is a very small chance of having something backfire or miss it always makes it a bit more interesting.
Agreed, i thought this concept was really interesting. Terrain doesn't seem to impact most MMO PvP over the last few years as much as it once did. In SWG, going up hills considerably slowed your speed, and could be used as a strategic point. Now, basically anything short of an ocean or castle wall is treated the same.
Would be really cool to see deserts / wooded areas move around the map (as they do IRL), and have perhaps sand reduce movement speed or forests provide LOS issues.
Say you've been assaulting a keep for a week and then you wake up one morning and the flooded area that's been impeeding one of your approaches has suddenly dried up and become perfect to throw some ladders and battering rams on.
Also, if we get climatic effects we can all go around saying Winter is Coming.
whooohooo. Awesome principle. But this landscape forming thing, is this really doable with a small team and small budget? True changes of in the environment (like blowing away a hill or something like that) would be something brand new (in an mmo), if I understand it right.
MMO's played so far: UO,EQ,DAOC,EQ2,GW,ROM,WOW,WAR,AOC,LOTRO,RIFT,TSW,GW2,POE Looking forward to: Camelot Unchained, Star Citizen
There are some interesting ideas there. I am fine with a bit of variance in how much damage spells do. I'm not so sure about stuff like (to use Mark's example) a spell backfiring and turning you into a horned rabbit (well unless it's a really dangerous and powerful horned rabbit). If that happened to me at a critical moment in a fight causing me and/or my group to lose, that sounds like it would be a rage quit/cancel situation. Dynamic zone changes... sure that could be fun.
whooohooo. Awesome principle. But this landscape forming thing, is this really doable with a small team and small budget? True changes of in the environment (like blowing away a hill or something like that) would be something brand new (in an mmo), if I understand it right.
Asherons Calll changed it's enviornment with monthly updates from time to time, adding seasons (snow in area's where it was previously bare/green, where snow had depth, etc) among story element changes to the enviornment and such.
It can be done, it's just a matter of them developing the tools and a good way to do it without it being a huge undertaking everytime they want to change or alter the landscape in some way.
I like it, just like I have liked every Foundation Principle up until now. Everyone should feel some element of danger when going into combat (imo).
However, these are all just principles. Grand ideas. I really hope they are manifest in the final product, especially since this will be the first Kickstarter I will be funding for more than $20.
This one has me a bit worried. He's right though, randomness can create epic moments. I remember killing a fairly balanced (all melee+healers) hib group solo on my savage because of a massive amount of evades.... at the same time I remember taking my r10 sb and getting wrecked by a r3 saracen s/s pally because he blocked/parried 20+ times in a row without using engage. Either way it's not make or break since many mmos are random.... gw2 is random in the worst way (7+ effects to choose from on some abilities QQ).
Originally posted by tlear I have big reservations about randomess in the combat system, world randomness is great but combat randomness.. not a fan at all.
Yeah i agree. A part of skill in combat should imo be to know if you have the odds on your side, and to know what to do to win (who to target, how to position yourself).
Randomness in encounters and terrain i love tho.
On a side note: I would not mind for you to build your character towards randomness. A trait could be higher chance to critical hit, but also critical failure, and there could be other traits that serve a similar purpose. There could also be some skills that have more random damage than other skills. But imo making it for everyone just seems... pointless. It should rather be a way to build your character.
I understand you really only want to get into a fight where you are certain of winning. That is why zerg is popular.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I personally like a bit of randomness. I remember in Daoc running into a random purple mob in a bunch of blues and how forever after it kept me on my toes.
I don't mind random crits, I like the unpredictability of it. But most people I know hate random crits, thier argument is it masks over a players skill. If you can't count on a certain dps it makes strats really hard. I don't agree but it's an argument I've heard.
Sounds good so far, I am a fan of random crits or maybe some sort of spell backlash like in WAR. I dont however think i would enjoy being turned into a rabbit (MOA form GW2 style?!?) for any length of time that wasnt 1. allowed to be purged or 2. I didnt take any damage nor dish any out
Originally posted by tokesh Game is progressively sounding dumber
/nod
Originally posted by waynejr2
I understand you really only want to get into a fight where you are certain of winning. That is why zerg is popular.
Not sure what world you live in. But the majority of us don't enter battle on a whim. Most of us don't run out to the field and /Tebow. Preparation wins wars. There is no certainty of winning, but being prepared guarantees you're ready.
If you're hoping for acts of God to help you in a video game, you're not very skilled at all. TTPs (techniques, tactics, and procedures) that are perfected make you the most skilled warrior on the battlefield.
If you step out to fight and your sword breaks, you are a horrible soldier. Your sword's health meant your life. Inspecting your sword for flaws, rust, dents, or fractures would be a daily task. Suggesting that broken weapons during battle should be accepted is an insult to gamers everywhere that take pride in their gear.
MJ just wants more reasons to implement full time crafters with critical breaks. I think its hilarious that so many of you are on board with this crap. But the moment your tier 1 purple sword breaks and you die, most of you will probably unsub right there and then.
P.S. Zergs are popular because its a sure spot in an RVR group. Has nothing to do with winning or losing. MOST of the people that played DAoC in its prime only RVR'd when they had their guild/alliance groups or realm defense battlegroup was formed. To assume that zergs meant certainty of winning is just foolish.
Originally posted by tokesh Game is progressively sounding dumber
/nod
Originally posted by waynejr2
I understand you really only want to get into a fight where you are certain of winning. That is why zerg is popular.
Not sure what world you live in. But the majority of us don't enter battle on a whim. Most of us don't run out to the field and /Tebow. Preparation wins wars. There is no certainty of winning, but being prepared guarantees you're ready.
If you're hoping for acts of God to help you in a video game, you're not very skilled at all. TTPs (techniques, tactics, and procedures) that are perfected make you the most skilled warrior on the battlefield.
If you step out to fight and your sword breaks, you are a horrible soldier. Your sword's health meant your life. Inspecting your sword for flaws, rust, dents, or fractures would be a daily task. Suggesting that broken weapons during battle should be accepted is an insult to gamers everywhere that take pride in their gear.
MJ just wants more reasons to implement full time crafters with critical breaks. I think its hilarious that so many of you are on board with this crap. But the moment your tier 1 purple sword breaks and you die, most of you will probably unsub right there and then.
P.S. Zergs are popular because its a sure spot in an RVR group. Has nothing to do with winning or losing. MOST of the people that played DAoC in its prime only RVR'd when they had their guild/alliance groups or realm defense battlegroup was formed. To assume that zergs meant certainty of winning is just foolish.
I actually do not mind stuff like sword breaking, in the age this game is set steel was not exactly science. Swords broke.. this is why if this is present I will carry 2-3 of them lol
What I am against is random burst crits or random stuns that kill target without my involvement, turn on auto attack oh he dead?? wtf DAOC had some of that, I remember playing my gimp Thane and spotting an Alb group of 4 I had some extra buffs and they were clearly RvR noobs but I proceeeded to crit every hit.. killing all of them. I mean yeah kindof lol but also stupid. Especially when playing as healer where crit heals are meanigless ususally but crits on your group suck.
In RvR game it probably will not be as bad as same thing in WoW Arena. DAOC was probably more random but it felt very deterministic compared to some RNG stuff in Arenas. Because there were so many other things that exerted influence more then RNG, where in Arena everything is fixed. Still I would prefer a 100% deterministic system for damage, healing and CC length.
Mark need to figure out how make healer life not hell with this system.
In a PvP centered RPG, I am personally against heavy RNG systems. The unpredicatable part of the experience should be your opponent, not the RNG. I don't view RNG as the good type of chaos.
Anyway, this is the first principle that I personally don't like at all.
Originally posted by tokesh Game is progressively sounding dumber
/nod
Originally posted by waynejr2
I understand you really only want to get into a fight where you are certain of winning. That is why zerg is popular.
Not sure what world you live in. But the majority of us don't enter battle on a whim. Most of us don't run out to the field and /Tebow. Preparation wins wars. There is no certainty of winning, but being prepared guarantees you're ready.
If you're hoping for acts of God to help you in a video game, you're not very skilled at all. TTPs (techniques, tactics, and procedures) that are perfected make you the most skilled warrior on the battlefield.
If you step out to fight and your sword breaks, you are a horrible soldier. Your sword's health meant your life. Inspecting your sword for flaws, rust, dents, or fractures would be a daily task. Suggesting that broken weapons during battle should be accepted is an insult to gamers everywhere that take pride in their gear.
MJ just wants more reasons to implement full time crafters with critical breaks. I think its hilarious that so many of you are on board with this crap. But the moment your tier 1 purple sword breaks and you die, most of you will probably unsub right there and then.
P.S. Zergs are popular because its a sure spot in an RVR group. Has nothing to do with winning or losing. MOST of the people that played DAoC in its prime only RVR'd when they had their guild/alliance groups or realm defense battlegroup was formed. To assume that zergs meant certainty of winning is just foolish.
I live in a world where people say they want challenge and that means they get into battle only when they are sure they will win and NOT ON A WHIM.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Originally posted by tokesh Game is progressively sounding dumber
/nod
Originally posted by waynejr2
I understand you really only want to get into a fight where you are certain of winning. That is why zerg is popular.
Not sure what world you live in. But the majority of us don't enter battle on a whim. Most of us don't run out to the field and /Tebow. Preparation wins wars. There is no certainty of winning, but being prepared guarantees you're ready.
If you're hoping for acts of God to help you in a video game, you're not very skilled at all. TTPs (techniques, tactics, and procedures) that are perfected make you the most skilled warrior on the battlefield.
If you step out to fight and your sword breaks, you are a horrible soldier. Your sword's health meant your life. Inspecting your sword for flaws, rust, dents, or fractures would be a daily task. Suggesting that broken weapons during battle should be accepted is an insult to gamers everywhere that take pride in their gear.
MJ just wants more reasons to implement full time crafters with critical breaks. I think its hilarious that so many of you are on board with this crap. But the moment your tier 1 purple sword breaks and you die, most of you will probably unsub right there and then.
P.S. Zergs are popular because its a sure spot in an RVR group. Has nothing to do with winning or losing. MOST of the people that played DAoC in its prime only RVR'd when they had their guild/alliance groups or realm defense battlegroup was formed. To assume that zergs meant certainty of winning is just foolish.
Other than the phrase "There is no certainty of winning..." this whole post is wrong. ("... being prepared guarantees you're ready" is a bit circular.)
I really think you're overreacting to the idea of SOME randomness in the game. I sincerely doubt the code will allow for top tier swords (if there is such a thing) breaking, wizards turning into feathered monkeys or critical misses castrating your healer... or at least I doubt it will happen often enough to complain about. And, honestly, if someone ragequits because their mace turned into a handful of daisies as they were making the killing blow on an enemy, so be it... I can't imagine that player would have been much fun to play with, anyway. It's a game, for Pete's sake. Personally, I look forward to reading the VN boards with whines about that stuff.
I like the idea of having some mutation in the game. Imagine how different DAoC may have ended up had Emain changed over time...
Imagine what your build might look like if all the drops are randomized...
I really like the idea of having an element of randomness involved... not too much, mind you... but a little to keep it lively and fresh.
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
Comments
I really liked this one, randomized stuff is very interesting.
I'm really looking forward to see what the game will look like, i'm a Warhammer veteran (played for over 3 years) and really need to get into a RvR game again, one that will be all about grouping with your realm fellas and siege anything you want, wuthout needing to go for dungeon runs that only takes the fun away (at least for me, who loves RvR).
Curious about Kickstart, what are we going to see there? I'm ready to donate and make this game becomes reality!
This isn't hype, this is fate.
Thx to MJ for bringing some fate to the heart of RvR players like me and my fellow War veterans.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
Yeah i agree. A part of skill in combat should imo be to know if you have the odds on your side, and to know what to do to win (who to target, how to position yourself).
Randomness in encounters and terrain i love tho.
On a side note: I would not mind for you to build your character towards randomness. A trait could be higher chance to critical hit, but also critical failure, and there could be other traits that serve a similar purpose. There could also be some skills that have more random damage than other skills. But imo making it for everyone just seems... pointless. It should rather be a way to build your character.
I hope to see a lot of variations in terrains that gives different bonuses/disadvantages/challenges. Desert storms, pitch black forests, ice cold tundras etc.
Also looking forward to the next blog post.
THe idea of critical missing is nice, it reminds me of some great humorous moments I had playing the first Fallout game. Having a party member critical miss, hit himself, then flee from combat in the very first combat I got into with him in my party and I'm left to take on the enemy alone and barely won.
Hopefully the idea behind it stays in the game an dpeople don't complain too much about it/whine to the point it gets taken out.
Agreed, i thought this concept was really interesting. Terrain doesn't seem to impact most MMO PvP over the last few years as much as it once did. In SWG, going up hills considerably slowed your speed, and could be used as a strategic point. Now, basically anything short of an ocean or castle wall is treated the same.
Would be really cool to see deserts / wooded areas move around the map (as they do IRL), and have perhaps sand reduce movement speed or forests provide LOS issues.
Say you've been assaulting a keep for a week and then you wake up one morning and the flooded area that's been impeeding one of your approaches has suddenly dried up and become perfect to throw some ladders and battering rams on.
Also, if we get climatic effects we can all go around saying Winter is Coming.
whooohooo. Awesome principle. But this landscape forming thing, is this really doable with a small team and small budget? True changes of in the environment (like blowing away a hill or something like that) would be something brand new (in an mmo), if I understand it right.
MMO's played so far:
UO,EQ,DAOC,EQ2,GW,ROM,WOW,WAR,AOC,LOTRO,RIFT,TSW,GW2,POE
Looking forward to: Camelot Unchained, Star Citizen
DAOC Live (inactive): R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R6 Healer
Asherons Calll changed it's enviornment with monthly updates from time to time, adding seasons (snow in area's where it was previously bare/green, where snow had depth, etc) among story element changes to the enviornment and such.
It can be done, it's just a matter of them developing the tools and a good way to do it without it being a huge undertaking everytime they want to change or alter the landscape in some way.
I love unpredictability in games
One of the reasons MMO's get stale is because you do in fact know what's gonna happen all the time. I embrace the chaos!
However, these are all just principles. Grand ideas. I really hope they are manifest in the final product, especially since this will be the first Kickstarter I will be funding for more than $20.
Totally in, balls-deep.
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
This one has me a bit worried. He's right though, randomness can create epic moments. I remember killing a fairly balanced (all melee+healers) hib group solo on my savage because of a massive amount of evades.... at the same time I remember taking my r10 sb and getting wrecked by a r3 saracen s/s pally because he blocked/parried 20+ times in a row without using engage. Either way it's not make or break since many mmos are random.... gw2 is random in the worst way (7+ effects to choose from on some abilities QQ).
The terrain stuff sounds great.
I understand you really only want to get into a fight where you are certain of winning. That is why zerg is popular.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I personally like a bit of randomness. I remember in Daoc running into a random purple mob in a bunch of blues and how forever after it kept me on my toes.
I don't mind random crits, I like the unpredictability of it. But most people I know hate random crits, thier argument is it masks over a players skill. If you can't count on a certain dps it makes strats really hard. I don't agree but it's an argument I've heard.
/nod
Originally posted by waynejr2
I understand you really only want to get into a fight where you are certain of winning. That is why zerg is popular.
Not sure what world you live in. But the majority of us don't enter battle on a whim. Most of us don't run out to the field and /Tebow. Preparation wins wars. There is no certainty of winning, but being prepared guarantees you're ready.
If you're hoping for acts of God to help you in a video game, you're not very skilled at all. TTPs (techniques, tactics, and procedures) that are perfected make you the most skilled warrior on the battlefield.
If you step out to fight and your sword breaks, you are a horrible soldier. Your sword's health meant your life. Inspecting your sword for flaws, rust, dents, or fractures would be a daily task. Suggesting that broken weapons during battle should be accepted is an insult to gamers everywhere that take pride in their gear.
MJ just wants more reasons to implement full time crafters with critical breaks. I think its hilarious that so many of you are on board with this crap. But the moment your tier 1 purple sword breaks and you die, most of you will probably unsub right there and then.
P.S. Zergs are popular because its a sure spot in an RVR group. Has nothing to do with winning or losing. MOST of the people that played DAoC in its prime only RVR'd when they had their guild/alliance groups or realm defense battlegroup was formed. To assume that zergs meant certainty of winning is just foolish.
I actually do not mind stuff like sword breaking, in the age this game is set steel was not exactly science. Swords broke.. this is why if this is present I will carry 2-3 of them lol
What I am against is random burst crits or random stuns that kill target without my involvement, turn on auto attack oh he dead?? wtf DAOC had some of that, I remember playing my gimp Thane and spotting an Alb group of 4 I had some extra buffs and they were clearly RvR noobs but I proceeeded to crit every hit.. killing all of them. I mean yeah kindof lol but also stupid. Especially when playing as healer where crit heals are meanigless ususally but crits on your group suck.
In RvR game it probably will not be as bad as same thing in WoW Arena. DAOC was probably more random but it felt very deterministic compared to some RNG stuff in Arenas. Because there were so many other things that exerted influence more then RNG, where in Arena everything is fixed. Still I would prefer a 100% deterministic system for damage, healing and CC length.
Mark need to figure out how make healer life not hell with this system.
In a PvE RPG, sure, RNG can be fun and exciting.
In a PvP centered RPG, I am personally against heavy RNG systems. The unpredicatable part of the experience should be your opponent, not the RNG. I don't view RNG as the good type of chaos.
Anyway, this is the first principle that I personally don't like at all.
I live in a world where people say they want challenge and that means they get into battle only when they are sure they will win and NOT ON A WHIM.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Other than the phrase "There is no certainty of winning..." this whole post is wrong. ("... being prepared guarantees you're ready" is a bit circular.)
I really think you're overreacting to the idea of SOME randomness in the game. I sincerely doubt the code will allow for top tier swords (if there is such a thing) breaking, wizards turning into feathered monkeys or critical misses castrating your healer... or at least I doubt it will happen often enough to complain about. And, honestly, if someone ragequits because their mace turned into a handful of daisies as they were making the killing blow on an enemy, so be it... I can't imagine that player would have been much fun to play with, anyway. It's a game, for Pete's sake. Personally, I look forward to reading the VN boards with whines about that stuff.
I like the idea of having some mutation in the game. Imagine how different DAoC may have ended up had Emain changed over time...
Imagine what your build might look like if all the drops are randomized...
I really like the idea of having an element of randomness involved... not too much, mind you... but a little to keep it lively and fresh.
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
RED IS DEAD!