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Tab-Targetting PLEASE...

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  • xaleexalee bismarck, MOPosts: 11Member Uncommon
    As long as i can use my mouse to click on things and not to be my only movement ( like diablo 3) Ill be happy. I dont like games where you can't use your mouse i feel restricted.
  • PurutzilPurutzil East Stroudsburg, PAPosts: 2,924Member Uncommon

    Really? Tab-targetting 'makes' fun combat? If anything in its base form tab targetting makes for boring combat. Not having it can make even simply spamming one button with action combat seem more fun then a basic tab-targetting combat. I can see maybe having a 'lock-on' deal but truthfully I don't see why people swear by tab-targetting. There are games that do a good job with it, AIon is quite fun with the combat how its set up (and its older now even too) though for the most part a lot can be dule. 

     

    It takes more skill picking the right skill AND aiming then it does just picking the right skill. An action combat game will always take more skill then tab target if you just take out the combat style (rotation and the likes) and paste it in. Does that mean tab-targetting should die? No, but it sure doesn't mean it takes more skill either.

  • SpeelySpeely Seattle, WAPosts: 861Member
    Not to be overly-anecdotal, but I have never played any mmorpg other than DAoC where one similarly-equipped, equal level pc can defeat multiple enemies by simply outplaying them, or where a good 8man can defeat a zerg by outplaying them. I am not saying this is not possible in some other games. My point is that anyone claiming that DAoC's model somehow requires less "skill" (as is any of these games are fcking rocket science) has never seen a well-played toon or well-run group completely and totally annihilate, humiliate, and then /bow out to a considerably larger, equally-equipped force.

    If that isn't "skill" then I don't know what is. Just statistically nigh-impossible luck, I guess.
  • WW4BWWW4BW KoldingPosts: 493Member

    "Can you attack people through other people?"

    If you can cast a fireball or shoot an arrow through allies and enemies and only hit your target behind both, then tab targeting is the way to go. 

    But if there are collision checks on players and monsters, then free aim is the way to go.

    Also, while I havent read every post in this thread, noone seems to mention "/stick", /assist%target or "/setgroundtarget". And these were pretty important in DAoC. I suppose ground targeting will be done by mouse now like in every other game since DAoC. But the way combat went in DAoC was; Tab or "/assist%target"-macro, /stick, then smacking away till dead. Unless it was a 1v1 then it was; Tab, /stick, Perforate artery, run through enemy, /stick, backstabbing till dead or enemy /sticks followed by meh attacks til next evade.

    Attacking with a bow though.... Think that was changed by the end of my DAoC stint.. Used to be 2 clicks per attack.. and if you spammed it too fast you would fail the draw or something. So shooting arrows was a timing thing. Cant really remember exactly how it was and not at all what it was changed to.

    I would like to see a game that if tab targeting was included, allowed a mix for ranged classes, so they could have tab targeted skills but also have sniper shots or magic bolts using FPS'like aiming.

    It ofcourse all comes down to what the engine can handle, latency and so on.. How many players, how much is going on.. Im assuming its pretty damn intensive to check for collision on 50-200 people that are between you and your target, while also checking collision of people themselves. 

  • Plastic-MetalPlastic-Metal Highland Heights, KYPosts: 405Member
    Originally posted by PerfArt
    Not to be overly-anecdotal, but I have never played any mmorpg other than DAoC where one similarly-equipped, equal level pc can defeat multiple enemies by simply outplaying them, or where a good 8man can defeat a zerg by outplaying them. I am not saying this is not possible in some other games. My point is that anyone claiming that DAoC's model somehow requires less "skill" (as is any of these games are fcking rocket science) has never seen a well-played toon or well-run group completely and totally annihilate, humiliate, and then /bow out to a considerably larger, equally-equipped force.

    If that isn't "skill" then I don't know what is. Just statistically nigh-impossible luck, I guess.

     

    +1  

    The best part of this thread, including other threads, is the fact Mark Jacobs blatantly describes the combat system that will be used in Camelot Unchained in an interview.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxHkAJm_-0A&t=2m10s

    Instead of arguing that XYZ style is better than ABC, why don't you guys that want action / aiming combat create threads that are actually constructive and post suggestions and whys to implement it?  I'm guilty of feeding this thread, just like a few other people, because I can't wrap my head around how some people have a complete misunderstanding of game design/programming, and infrastructures.

    My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

    image

  • StilerStiler Athens, TNPosts: 599Member
    Originally posted by Plastic-Metal
    Originally posted by PerfArt
    Not to be overly-anecdotal, but I have never played any mmorpg other than DAoC where one similarly-equipped, equal level pc can defeat multiple enemies by simply outplaying them, or where a good 8man can defeat a zerg by outplaying them. I am not saying this is not possible in some other games. My point is that anyone claiming that DAoC's model somehow requires less "skill" (as is any of these games are fcking rocket science) has never seen a well-played toon or well-run group completely and totally annihilate, humiliate, and then /bow out to a considerably larger, equally-equipped force.

    If that isn't "skill" then I don't know what is. Just statistically nigh-impossible luck, I guess.

     

    +1  

    The best part of this thread, including other threads, is the fact Mark Jacobs blatantly describes the combat system that will be used in Camelot Unchained in an interview.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxHkAJm_-0A&t=2m10s

    Instead of arguing that XYZ style is better than ABC, why don't you guys that want action / aiming combat create threads that are actually constructive and post suggestions and whys to implement it?  I'm guilty of feeding this thread, just like a few other people, because I can't wrap my head around how some people have a complete misunderstanding of game design/programming, and infrastructures.

    The way I took that, was to mean skill based in terms of A skill system, a la "use a sword, get better at sword fighting, etc.

    I remember distinictly, either in that hour long interview, or in the recent podcast on massively, Mark mentions combat and talks about how it can be either more traditional or actiony, he's open to either and it depends on what the players want.

  • SpeelySpeely Seattle, WAPosts: 861Member
    @Plastic-Metal: Good point. MJ has already stated that CU won't be for everyone, and those who don't like the niche model he is aiming for have plenty of options. This is a bit of a silly debate. Still, we all like a good forum scrap, don't we? :)
  • VindicarVindicar ParisPosts: 134Member

    Impressive to read so much dishonesty from every sides....

     

    The "true-targeting-recquires-more-skill-than-tab-target" debate is dull and has nothing to do here. Depending on the game mechanics it could be true or absolutely wrong... some tab-target are impressively fast-paced and hard to masterize...

     

    The same applys for poeples thinking that tab-targetting is better on the strategic side... what a bullshet... In the end you have total control over your avatar in the same kind of situations... I don't see how the aiming mechanics has any influence here... I could even start arguing that most tab-target game have complete broken mechanics : fireballs through hills, players and even trees in a lot of game... The use of the LOS is allways crappy and approximativ in tab target games. The most frustrating exemple of all times ? WoW arenas and running droods...You still see 2/3 of the mofo but he is considered out of LOS...

     

    The only matter here is ENJOYEMENT.

    So unless you find a little something to make tab-targettin' more appealin' (And I have no doubt it is completely possible) I will still and ALLWAYS prefer more actionnish-real-aimingish stuff.

     

    And as for the healer point... rofl guys... because we speak of true aiming and action gameplay doesn't mean you will loose the ability to "click to target" and if indeed heals requires real aiming... GOOD THING. Most carebears over 30 years will hate me for saying so but : HEALING IS EASY AND BORING AND ALLWAYS BEEN, IT DOESN'T REQUIRE GREAT SKILLS TO BE A GOOD HEALER, IT ONLY REQUIRES DEDICATION AND DECENT GAME OVERVIEW AND UNDERSTANDING ! I allways been tank or healer in my main MMOs, not saying throwing this just like that.

    Old school french hardcore whiner. Online since T4C.

    I was "Namless" and "Daroot" in AO (Rk2)
    Recently known as "Vindicar" (Aion (EU), SWTOR (EU), WoW (EU).
    Actually Known as "Wundicar" in Age of Wushu (US)

  • daltaniousdaltanious waPosts: 2,143Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Qallidexz

    My fellow DAoC warriors! So many games nowadays are moving towards the "free-form" targetting system (not to be confused with real-time combat, which is a different thing, and you can have both tab-target and real time), but I remember the glory days, where tab-targetting was all there is. Some of the newer MMO'ers tend to get it into their heads that no tab-targetting is somehow "better", because it takes more "skill". Well, running through people, jumping around them, strafing side to side, all that is just an annoyance, as the true MMO fans know, those who played DAoC, real skill comes from knowing what to do, and when to do it (spell-wise, and ability-wise) not from trying to run through your opponent (hense the /face, and /stick commands had to be implemented).

    Free-form targetting does not make for fun combat, tab-targetting makes for fun combat, but without tab-targetting, it's just little kids who are used to playing Call of Duty, jumping around their opponents, and over their heads, to gain an advantage, because they're not smart enough to figure out which spells they need to cast and when, or capable of figuring out what abilities to use at the right times, so they just jump around a lot. Let's avoid this in CU, and get back to the good ole' days, you with me?

    After long years of gaming and particularly MMO's ... if game does not have tab targeting I'm NOT playing it. Simple as that. I do not wish doom to other games, just saying company will not get my money. So is up to them to decide what will do.

  • Plastic-MetalPlastic-Metal Highland Heights, KYPosts: 405Member
    Originally posted by Vindicar

    Impressive to read so much dishonesty from every sides....

     

    The "true-targeting-recquires-more-skill-than-tab-target" debate is dull and has nothing to do here. Depending on the game mechanics it could be true or absolutely wrong... some tab-target are impressively fast-paced and hard to masterize...

     

    The same applys for poeples thinking that tab-targetting is better on the strategic side... what a bullshet... In the end you have total control over your avatar in the same kind of situations... I don't see how the aiming mechanics has any influence here... I could even start arguing that most tab-target game have complete broken mechanics : fireballs through hills, players and even trees in a lot of game... The use of the LOS is allways crappy and approximativ in tab target games. The most frustrating exemple of all times ? WoW arenas and running droods...You still see 2/3 of the mofo but he is considered out of LOS...

     

    The only matter here is ENJOYEMENT.

    So unless you find a little something to make tab-targettin' more appealin' (And I have no doubt it is completely possible) I will still and ALLWAYS prefer more actionnish-real-aimingish stuff.

     

    And as for the healer point... rofl guys... because we speak of true aiming and action gameplay doesn't mean you will loose the ability to "click to target" and if indeed heals requires real aiming... GOOD THING. Most carebears over 30 years will hate me for saying so but : HEALING IS EASY AND BORING AND ALLWAYS BEEN, IT DOESN'T REQUIRE GREAT SKILLS TO BE A GOOD HEALER, IT ONLY REQUIRES DEDICATION AND DECENT GAME OVERVIEW AND UNDERSTANDING ! I allways been tank or healer in my main MMOs, not saying throwing this just like that.

     

    1 Player Game:  http://www.elderscrolls.com/skyrim/ 

    MMO:  http://www.darkfallonline.com/

    Your problem has been solved.   /end thread

    Dead horse is dead.

    My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

    image

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,609Member Uncommon
    Whatever system they implement, jumpers should have to take more damage if they're caught mid-jump with a firm thrust to their nether regions...stamp-out jumpers I say.
  • StilerStiler Athens, TNPosts: 599Member
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Whatever system they implement, jumpers should have to take more damage if they're caught mid-jump with a firm thrust to their nether regions...stamp-out jumpers I say.

    This is something balanced easily with a good stamina and animation system. Whereby trying to jump both drains you stamina (so if you try it in quick succession you become exhausted) and where the animation should make you slower once you jump and land it (so you're easier to hit), thus making the entire reason behind bunny hopping a moot point and thus people won't do it, unless they want to die more easily.

  • SintrixSintrix Anchorage, AKPosts: 52Member
    I used to love playing Contra on my NES, but that doesn't mean I'm going to play a side scroller game over a 3D environment.  Tab-targeting is a thing of the past, it's time to move on.  There's no need to crutch into a "feature" that was put in place because the existing technology couldn't handle free targeting on a massive scale.
  • CananCanan Wedowee, ALPosts: 94Member
    Originally posted by Sintrix
    I used to love playing Contra on my NES, but that doesn't mean I'm going to play a side scroller game over a 3D environment.  Tab-targeting is a thing of the past, it's time to move on.  There's no need to crutch into a "feature" that was put in place because the existing technology couldn't handle free targeting on a massive scale.

    No.

  • SmorakSmorak Saint Petersburg, FLPosts: 62Member
    Originally posted by Sintrix
    I used to love playing Contra on my NES, but that doesn't mean I'm going to play a side scroller game over a 3D environment.  Tab-targeting is a thing of the past, it's time to move on.  There's no need to crutch into a "feature" that was put in place because the existing technology couldn't handle free targeting on a massive scale.

    Hell, no.

     

    There's a reason way back in history they used 100s of archers to fire volleys and now each squad has 1 designated marksman:  accuracy.

    Why do you want to go to iron sights when there's clearly a scope?

  • CyborWolfTKCyborWolfTK anywhere, AKPosts: 77Member
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Whatever system they implement, jumpers should have to take more damage if they're caught mid-jump with a firm thrust to their nether regions...stamp-out jumpers I say.

    +1,

     

       Nothing worse then jumping beans. annoying as hell.

  • StilerStiler Athens, TNPosts: 599Member
    Originally posted by Smorak
    Originally posted by Sintrix
    I used to love playing Contra on my NES, but that doesn't mean I'm going to play a side scroller game over a 3D environment.  Tab-targeting is a thing of the past, it's time to move on.  There's no need to crutch into a "feature" that was put in place because the existing technology couldn't handle free targeting on a massive scale.

    Hell, no.

     

    There's a reason way back in history they used 100s of archers to fire volleys and now each squad has 1 designated marksman:  accuracy.

    Why do you want to go to iron sights when there's clearly a scope?

     

    You do realize Archers actually did aim? While yes the Volley firing was an effective tactic, it didn't mean that bowmen were inept or didn't require knowledge to "aim" their bows? Good archers praticed a lot with their bows, and aiming is a big part of that.

    Where do you think the term "Marksman" came from? Hint: Archers.

     

  • BentBent Raleigh, NCPosts: 581Member

    I am fine with Tab-target.

    What I miss most is /face and /follow /stick.  Fricking archers hiding inside of trees.  How they would turn and run away as I started running right at them.  I way an angry shaman.  

  • rodingorodingo Posts: 2,346Member Uncommon
    Meh.  Whichever method they use for targeting is fine by me.  I'll just adapt like I do for every other mmo.  Not sure what the big deal is either way.

    "If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Richmond, VAPosts: 1,538Member Common
    Originally posted by Sintrix
    I used to love playing Contra on my NES, but that doesn't mean I'm going to play a side scroller game over a 3D environment.  Tab-targeting is a thing of the past, it's time to move on.  There's no need to crutch into a "feature" that was put in place because the existing technology couldn't handle free targeting on a massive scale.

    Its funny how some people are so full of themselves and think that action combat is some superior thing and tab targeting is only done because of the technology.  So false.

    Its *not* better.  Its different.  To some its preferable, and to others it isnt.  Neither system is inherently better, and neither system inherently gives a 'skilled' player a greater advantage.

  • SpeelySpeely Seattle, WAPosts: 861Member
    I think this has become an overly-heated topic. No matter what system CSE decides to use, I am sure that it will be both to provide a fun RvR experience and be built from the ground up to facilitate said experience. I prefer tab targetting, but that's only because DAoC is my holy grail. If CU uses FreeAim™, Hybrid1000™, TABernacle™, or any other system I will still give it a chance because I truly believe in what MJ is trying to do and that his team is probably better than us at weighing the variables that determine what will and won't work within the framework of what could potentially be the best PvP mmo since UO.

    Basically, let's let them have a vision. Input is awesome. Insults are extremely un-awesome and contribute nothing. Let's build a community, not a calamity.
  • asmkm22asmkm22 Anchorage, AKPosts: 1,788Member
    Originally posted by colddog04
    People jump around alot in tab-targeted games.

    It's no different in other games, usually because the attacks tend to be very AoE heavy.

    You make me like charity

  • corpusccorpusc Chattanooga, TNPosts: 1,330Member
    Originally posted by Canan
    Originally posted by corpusc
    Originally posted by Canan
    Originally posted by corpusc
    Originally posted by Canan
    I am still confused...what are these "skill" based games you are referencing? What does that term even mean?

    I can't help being facetious when someone tells me their video game of choice takes more skill than mine.

     

    because basket weaving is just as skill based as juggling chainsaws on a tightrope.

    EVERYTHING IS EQUAL!

    Yes, tab targeting based games are to twitch based games as basket weaving is to juggling chainsaws on a tightrope. I'll give you points for originality but the facts are still the same - the skills (again you are making me use the term skill) which both games require are unique and should not be compared. So, stop, collaborate and listen: both genres are fun and require relatively low to average thinking and motor skills to excel. Please stop being condescending just because you prefer a particular average-level thinking process over someone else's.

     

    completely wrong, from top to bottom.  

    hint: everything is not equal 

     

    here's an example that you might possibly be able to understand, since the other one confused you.

     

     

    "brain surgery is no more complicated than finger painting"

     

     

    now, lets try to avoid getting hopelessly confused here.  

    i'm NOT saying tab target is finger painting.

    i'm NOT saying that action combat is brain surgery

     

     

    Belittling my intelligence isn't going to make your point anymore right or mine anymore wrong. I understood that your analogy didn't directly represent the two genres, I did indeed. But the point I was trying to make (which maybe I did not make clear, and I apologize) is that the requirement levels of thinking and motor skills involved in "twitch" games are just as average as the requirements in "tab-targeting" games. So, you can scream until the cows come home about the huge skill threshold dividing the two genres, but frankly neither genre requires much brain power to begin with.

    It is definitely odd (in my opinion) that you can say action based games require more skill (again I am confused on what this mysterious skill is) than tab targeting games. So you are telling me that your team of 8 random FPS players would be able to take on a team of 8 experienced Dark Age of Camelot players in RvR right now and even have a chance of winning? You sir, are mistaken, there is quite the learning curve to tab targeting games and a huge amount of strategic and tactical decision making (especially in Dark Age of Camelot). In fact, I daresay that experienced Dark Age of Camelot players would have a much easier time defeating an experienced FPS team than vice versa.

    Anyhow, we can go at this particular issue all day but I rather just break it down for you: these are different types of games that involve different skills (simple skills) and comparing them (as you continue to do) is going nowhere. But, please continue believing that your game genre of choice has some kind of amazing skill-curve compared to other genres. Maybe you can even make it to the Olympics.

     

    no.  as you demonstrate in the next highlighted section, you did not understand the 2nd time around either.  and you probably won't understand for the 3rd and last time either, as pretty much everything you've said in this thread is pretty much wrong.

    yeah, its pretty obvious you are confused.

    oh really?  you're arguing with me about how they are no different.

     

    last chance at trying to comprehend my point.  

    according to you, Club Penguin and Starcraft require the same amount of skill.

     

    The End
    ---------------------------
    i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  • corpusccorpusc Chattanooga, TNPosts: 1,330Member
    Originally posted by Stiler
    Originally posted by Plastic-Metal
    Originally posted by PerfArt
    Not to be overly-anecdotal, but I have never played any mmorpg other than DAoC where one similarly-equipped, equal level pc can defeat multiple enemies by simply outplaying them, or where a good 8man can defeat a zerg by outplaying them. I am not saying this is not possible in some other games. My point is that anyone claiming that DAoC's model somehow requires less "skill" (as is any of these games are fcking rocket science) has never seen a well-played toon or well-run group completely and totally annihilate, humiliate, and then /bow out to a considerably larger, equally-equipped force.

    If that isn't "skill" then I don't know what is. Just statistically nigh-impossible luck, I guess.

     

    +1  

    The best part of this thread, including other threads, is the fact Mark Jacobs blatantly describes the combat system that will be used in Camelot Unchained in an interview.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxHkAJm_-0A&t=2m10s

    Instead of arguing that XYZ style is better than ABC, why don't you guys that want action / aiming combat create threads that are actually constructive and post suggestions and whys to implement it?  I'm guilty of feeding this thread, just like a few other people, because I can't wrap my head around how some people have a complete misunderstanding of game design/programming, and infrastructures.

    The way I took that, was to mean skill based in terms of A skill system, a la "use a sword, get better at sword fighting, etc.

    I remember distinictly, either in that hour long interview, or in the recent podcast on massively, Mark mentions combat and talks about how it can be either more traditional or actiony, he's open to either and it depends on what the players want.

     

    exactly.  in that interview he's talking about "skills" as in character stats, char progression mechanics.  such as in UO.  

    not real-life/player skills.

    The End
    ---------------------------
    i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  • corpusccorpusc Chattanooga, TNPosts: 1,330Member
    Originally posted by Fendel84M
    Originally posted by Qallidexz
    Originally posted by strangiato2112
    Originally posted by Fendel84M

    So the OP just wants everyone standing still facing each other and playing "hotkey war". That is pretty old school, but not very fun or interesting now that latency isn't a big issue anymore.

    I think there are benefits to both systems, but movement is definitely something that makes combat more interesting. The OP is rather condescending though basically saying anyone who doesn't play his way is an idiot little kid who plays COD.

    I hate COD but I still think action combat is a blast in MMOs.

    Have you ever PvPed n a tab target game?  

    Are people really that clueless to think that tab target games people just stand still and press 123412341234?  thats the impression this thread is giving me.

    Tab targeting only produces standing around in PvE where the tank locks the mob down for the dps to stand still and whack away.  PvP is always constant motion.  

    And latency will always be an issue.  Not everyone lives close enough to their server that latency isnt an issue.

     

    Yea. that's the problem, all these people who've never played an MMO before are advocating twitch combat, cuz they think it's somehow more complex, or more advanced, or more innovative, but in reality, it's not any of those things, just a game-wrecker, that's all.

    Don't assume things. I've played every major MMO since before EverQuest including DAoC. And that style of combat was innovative back then, but have you played DAOC recently? That combat is pretty boring by todays standards.

    Thats just me though, I've grown to enjoy action combat in MMOs. I still enjoy strategies and tactical advantages. But I don't think that memorizing 100 different skills is the bees knees. Dodging your attack, and then stabbing you in the back however...is pretty awesome.

    You're allowed to have your opinion. But i don't appreciate the way you are trying to make anyone who doesn't agree with you out to be a child or an idiot COD fan. You're the one who is acting childish.

     

    exactly.  and so have i  (except i didn't play M59).  and i've been wanting them to get away from RPG-style stats/char-progression and dice rolling ever since my FIRST DAY in those games.  something i've been wanting for 15 years.

    and it doesn't have to be action combat.  just ANY kind of combat that requires a shred of skill beyond Ass Sitting and Life Wasting.

     

    p.s.  i also hate COD.  but thanks for demonstrating your thought process (@ the original guy assuming that)

    The End
    ---------------------------
    i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

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