I say 3 months. Anything longer then that and the game and it's inhabitants start to feal clingy. I do not want to support another person ever...if I don't want to.
Over time bonds form and I really honestly don't want that to happen. I role play in games to melt other people's faces...legally. :-)
I prefer to think of MMOs as a "dog eat dog" world.
I will never support freeloaders, no more subsidized gaming. My Blog
Leveling needs to stop being the goal of games. It leads to lazy development and repitition that strongly resembles a skinner box.
It should take days and no more than a week; two if the player plays casually.
"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days those are now the only two states youll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2
Never understood and never will understand the obession some people have about wanting to grind rather than play the game.
If the grind is long enough, the urgency is removed.
It really is just that simple. The Race to be First isn't very pressing, when the First is years away from the Wall.
In other words, you can stop hunting, do other stuff, and not feel like you're falling Behind.
It's a strange and foreign concept, to an awful lot of people that have never experienced a game where Mobs and Competition weren't the primary focus.
What's the longest period of time you've ever spent without earning XP or Stuff? The only comparable situation is a long-capped toon; his focus shifts to non-hunting (or at least not full time compulsive hunting) activities.
The sandbox boys understand the appeal of freedom to do other stuff, as do the roleplaying folks.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Six months of hard core play. It needs to be long enough so folks aren't obsessed with leveling and, instead, can enjoy time exploring and getting to know their fellow adventurer while earning xp. Some might call that a grind. But none of the 8,000 hours I spent in EQ felt grindy.
Games need a way of either limiting level advancement per day, or adding diminishing xp returns. After 8 hours of 'grinding' the xp a characters gets per mob quickly lowers to 10% of its actual value. Or, instead of hours, analyze total xp gain to determine when diminishing returns kick in.
take snapshot of character xp at 12:00am
let's say 5,000,000
5mil to 6mil: no penalties. from 6 mil to 7 mil they incur 50% penalty from 7 mil to 8 mil they incur 75% penalty for 8mil + they incur 90% penalty
At 12:00am the next day, the xp penalty resets to zero.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Levels in the mmo genre is one of the biggest design flaws in my opinion, I dont think there should be levels but instead individual skill development.
Levels in the mmo genre is one of the biggest design flaws in my opinion, I dont think there should be levels but instead individual skill development.
agreed
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Originally posted by Darth-Batman Levels in the mmo genre is one of the biggest design flaws in my opinion, I dont think there should be levels but instead individual skill development.
It is still a type of leveling and could be considered levels. That means a person who has more development will pwn a person that doesn't.
Leveling is leveling whether it is skills or some other measurement.
I chose other, because it's dependent on how repetitive the content may or may not be. If I can progress slowly, but have a wide variety of things to do that appeal to me, then it's perfectly fine, but if it feels grindy and tedious and unrewarding, then I want a faster level curve to alleviate that tedium.
Originally posted by Darth-Batman Levels in the mmo genre is one of the biggest design flaws in my opinion, I dont think there should be levels but instead individual skill development.
agreed
Skill levels, character level... If you're not grinding experience you're grinding a skill level. Its all the same.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Originally posted by Darth-Batman Levels in the mmo genre is one of the biggest design flaws in my opinion, I dont think there should be levels but instead individual skill development.
It is still a type of leveling and could be considered levels. That means a person who has more development will pwn a person that doesn't.
Leveling is leveling whether it is skills or some other measurement.
1. This is purely a PvP point of view. So while valid, if skill progression takes time, then more development may be a broader range of skills not specifically a DPS line of skills. A lower developed player may still have comparable DPS.
2. Level or skill progression means nothing without an end to a charachter. When any progression is just a sum of time played, skilled or not, then there is no accomplishment. Gaining skills vs losing lifeforce for example would give meaning to the skills obtained.
The major problem in MMOs is the lack of an end to the toon. So without an end it is just a cycle of gear matching level appropriate encounter and going through basically the same rotation of combat mechanics. Now if a game offered a player the ability to impact their world, then accomplishements could be measured on the impact of a lifetime, after which the player could try to better himself or impact the worl around him using a different path.
While I agee that a skill based advancement system would be the best. I am going with over 6 months.
I feel if it takes a longer time to level then content locust can't chew a game too fast. (albeit they will still burn through it.)
This will allow devs to have atleast a half a year for content creation and stay slightly ahead of the majority of the crowd. (for at least a little bit.)
People will maybe solo less and group more to help alleviate the time between levels.
Plus if it is fun and not some boring grind. It can hold people for at least 6 months paid if a sub game. Or get more cash shop purchases if F2P.
First off. I like the notion of advancing and improving the character(s) you play. It was that way in offline as well as online RPGs.
Though there is a tiny difference between offline and online world (concerning mainly level based systems). The offline games I played offered advancement between level 1 and 20. Every levelup was a significant increase in power. Equipment came "naturally" and was used for longer times. The MMOs on the other hand offered far more "levelups" (i.e. power increases). Additionally you had continuous power increases in the shape of equipment rewards. Equipment for the most part has become a "one time use then throw away" thing.
The side effect is that balancing content is hardly possible in (level based) MMOs. Players outlevel each other's effective power level rather quickly. Even so at level cap due to the item progression. This in turn makes grouping pointless on certain stages of the game (too easy). On top of that a significant part of the playerbase considers the way up to the cap as a tedious chore which is best done fast and quickly. That leads to even less grouping during the "journey". This weakens the one strong point of MMOs. Playing together with other people.
I personally like a long leveling curve (6+ months) provided there is a strong community interaction on all level ranges. But to be realistic that will only work with an appropriate game concept, as well as a supportive community.
Originally posted by Wolfenpride The longer the better, assuming the game is enjoyable to begin with and has the content to keep it interesting.Endgame is well...the end of the game as far as i'm usually concerned.
My thoughts exactly. I chose Over 6 months if the game is a good alternate realty.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Darth-Batman Levels in the mmo genre is one of the biggest design flaws in my opinion, I dont think there should be levels but instead individual skill development.
It is still a type of leveling and could be considered levels. That means a person who has more development will pwn a person that doesn't.
Leveling is leveling whether it is skills or some other measurement.
It is, but its more personal to each individual player at that point. But approaching it with the traditional leveling preconception would just mean its another grind and would have to be intelligently designed not copied.
Originally posted by Wolfenpride The longer the better, assuming the game is enjoyable to begin with and has the content to keep it interesting.
Endgame is well...the end of the game as far as i'm usually concerned.
My thoughts exactly. I chose Over 6 months if the game is a good alternate realty.
Yeah... over six months of enjoyable content. A tall order, don't ya think?
You are all approaching the the subject from the wrong direction. Leveling is admittedly very addictive, but certainly not required. I can reach "the cap" within 2 days and remain entertained for months if not years.
It seems, people who debate about how long reaching the cap should last are more fixated with levels than the people who race to it.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Stats are looking very interesting so far. If we reach 200 votes i'll compile them along with comments and try to give a general picture of what people are leaning towards.
There is no limit to what you can do in reallife, either, and a MMO is a game you can potentially play from youth to old age.
So I think levels should just get harder and harder to archieve, and mean less and less, over time.
Of course there is.
Can you build 1000 buildings in your life time? Probably not.
Can you win a nobel priez? Probably not .. and even if you can .. it becomes the limit.
In fact, you are limited by time. Everyone dies and you have limited amount of time to accomplish whatever you want.
Your mention of the word 'probable' in and of itself promotes the chance of success. If you win the Nobel Peace Prize how does that become the limit? The only limit is one's own imagination. Taking advantage of that creativity is another question all together.
Level cap is good, because u have some objective in game - reach it. I rly liked how it was in Pre-GoD L2 - game max was 85, but reaching it was quite hard, so, true game started after 76 (3rd class).
Imo it should take over a year. Really long at least so you have long-term motivation and see yourself actually playing the game for a longer period of time not seeing everyone hitting cap within just a few weeks...
Comments
I say 3 months. Anything longer then that and the game and it's inhabitants start to feal clingy. I do not want to support another person ever...if I don't want to.
Over time bonds form and I really honestly don't want that to happen. I role play in games to melt other people's faces...legally. :-)
I prefer to think of MMOs as a "dog eat dog" world.
I will never support freeloaders, no more subsidized gaming.
My Blog
Leveling needs to stop being the goal of games. It leads to lazy development and repitition that strongly resembles a skinner box.
It should take days and no more than a week; two if the player plays casually.
"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days those are now the only two states youll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2
It would take far too long to develop content...or maybe they could just instance everything after that 2 days of content...LOL.
I will never support freeloaders, no more subsidized gaming.
My Blog
If the grind is long enough, the urgency is removed.
It really is just that simple. The Race to be First isn't very pressing, when the First is years away from the Wall.
In other words, you can stop hunting, do other stuff, and not feel like you're falling Behind.
It's a strange and foreign concept, to an awful lot of people that have never experienced a game where Mobs and Competition weren't the primary focus.
What's the longest period of time you've ever spent without earning XP or Stuff? The only comparable situation is a long-capped toon; his focus shifts to non-hunting (or at least not full time compulsive hunting) activities.
The sandbox boys understand the appeal of freedom to do other stuff, as do the roleplaying folks.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Six months of hard core play. It needs to be long enough so folks aren't obsessed with leveling and, instead, can enjoy time exploring and getting to know their fellow adventurer while earning xp. Some might call that a grind. But none of the 8,000 hours I spent in EQ felt grindy.
Games need a way of either limiting level advancement per day, or adding diminishing xp returns. After 8 hours of 'grinding' the xp a characters gets per mob quickly lowers to 10% of its actual value. Or, instead of hours, analyze total xp gain to determine when diminishing returns kick in.
take snapshot of character xp at 12:00am
let's say 5,000,000
5mil to 6mil: no penalties.
from 6 mil to 7 mil they incur 50% penalty
from 7 mil to 8 mil they incur 75% penalty
for 8mil + they incur 90% penalty
At 12:00am the next day, the xp penalty resets to zero.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
agreedI angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
It is still a type of leveling and could be considered levels. That means a person who has more development will pwn a person that doesn't.
Leveling is leveling whether it is skills or some other measurement.
Playing Vanguard atm and having a lot of fun.
Been playing 2 months now and got to level 30, max level is 50 or 55.
There is also another 50 odd levels in crafting and another 50 in Diplomacy.
There is still loads to explore, quests to do and skills/abilities to do.
I will probably be playing for another 6 months on and off.
I have been playing TSW on and off since it ws released and am yet to hit max level.
I played GW2 for 12 weeks, 6 weeks at max level bored.
I played SWTOR for 12 weeks, 4 weeks at max level bored.
Give me a game with lots to do but levelling that isn't fast.
Skill levels, character level... If you're not grinding experience you're grinding a skill level. Its all the same.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
1. This is purely a PvP point of view. So while valid, if skill progression takes time, then more development may be a broader range of skills not specifically a DPS line of skills. A lower developed player may still have comparable DPS.
2. Level or skill progression means nothing without an end to a charachter. When any progression is just a sum of time played, skilled or not, then there is no accomplishment. Gaining skills vs losing lifeforce for example would give meaning to the skills obtained.
The major problem in MMOs is the lack of an end to the toon. So without an end it is just a cycle of gear matching level appropriate encounter and going through basically the same rotation of combat mechanics. Now if a game offered a player the ability to impact their world, then accomplishements could be measured on the impact of a lifetime, after which the player could try to better himself or impact the worl around him using a different path.
While I agee that a skill based advancement system would be the best. I am going with over 6 months.
I feel if it takes a longer time to level then content locust can't chew a game too fast. (albeit they will still burn through it.)
This will allow devs to have atleast a half a year for content creation and stay slightly ahead of the majority of the crowd. (for at least a little bit.)
People will maybe solo less and group more to help alleviate the time between levels.
Plus if it is fun and not some boring grind. It can hold people for at least 6 months paid if a sub game. Or get more cash shop purchases if F2P.
Ea is like a poo fingered midas ~ShakyMo
First off. I like the notion of advancing and improving the character(s) you play. It was that way in offline as well as online RPGs.
Though there is a tiny difference between offline and online world (concerning mainly level based systems). The offline games I played offered advancement between level 1 and 20. Every levelup was a significant increase in power. Equipment came "naturally" and was used for longer times.
The MMOs on the other hand offered far more "levelups" (i.e. power increases). Additionally you had continuous power increases in the shape of equipment rewards. Equipment for the most part has become a "one time use then throw away" thing.
The side effect is that balancing content is hardly possible in (level based) MMOs. Players outlevel each other's effective power level rather quickly. Even so at level cap due to the item progression. This in turn makes grouping pointless on certain stages of the game (too easy). On top of that a significant part of the playerbase considers the way up to the cap as a tedious chore which is best done fast and quickly. That leads to even less grouping during the "journey". This weakens the one strong point of MMOs. Playing together with other people.
I personally like a long leveling curve (6+ months) provided there is a strong community interaction on all level ranges. But to be realistic that will only work with an appropriate game concept, as well as a supportive community.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I prefer skill based leveling. I always take my time anyway. There are those whose only enjoyment (and their fun) comes from leveling quickly.
It depends on your goals for a game. Many players only enjoy seeing how fast they can level.
It is, but its more personal to each individual player at that point. But approaching it with the traditional leveling preconception would just mean its another grind and would have to be intelligently designed not copied.
Yeah... over six months of enjoyable content. A tall order, don't ya think?
You are all approaching the the subject from the wrong direction. Leveling is admittedly very addictive, but certainly not required. I can reach "the cap" within 2 days and remain entertained for months if not years.
It seems, people who debate about how long reaching the cap should last are more fixated with levels than the people who race to it.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Of course there is.
Can you build 1000 buildings in your life time? Probably not.
Can you win a nobel priez? Probably not .. and even if you can .. it becomes the limit.
In fact, you are limited by time. Everyone dies and you have limited amount of time to accomplish whatever you want.
I do like levels. Longer the better for me. If I had to pick. 1 year.
Your mention of the word 'probable' in and of itself promotes the chance of success. If you win the Nobel Peace Prize how does that become the limit? The only limit is one's own imagination. Taking advantage of that creativity is another question all together.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Lineage II had a good leveling progression.
Imo it should take over a year. Really long at least so you have long-term motivation and see yourself actually playing the game for a longer period of time not seeing everyone hitting cap within just a few weeks...
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