Then why are you waiting on ARR? there are hundreds of games with endless grind available already, all asian of course.
I didnt say I want endless L2 grind I said I rather that than instantly maxxed out character ... There is also middle golden way which I hope is the way ARR is taking.
So why ARR? Because I love the graphics, gameplay and the world itself is amazing.
The whole idea of leveling each class withing one main character is also awesome. This means, that THIS FEATURE itself kinda promise the whole LONG and HARD maxxing out main character because even IF I max out for instance gladiator class with all the best gear, etc. I can just say to myself that now I level him as lancer or archer and get the appropriete gear No more alts chasing game
And I really like how producer/director Naoki Yoshida is passionate about the game and I believe even if nothing else, this game will be sucess for this reason. Everyone knows that Japanese people work with theirs hearth and soul. They are nothing like western culture. I did spend a lot of time lately to read and watch all his and ARR videos, QAS, blogs, posts, etc. and thats why I am 100% sure that ARR will be blast, atleast for me.
Originally posted by negilum It depends on the game. If it's a typical themepark based on content treadmilling then it should be a slow process to give the game a good lifespan. For a sandbox focused on community interaction you should be able to max out quickly to be able to participate in things.
This should be the voice of reason, but there are other considerations.
1. Why would a person want to spend a long time playing a game even as a theme park?
a. They must like the story, or lore.
b. they have a lot of time on their hands and want something that is challenging and time consuming
c. Are new to Mmos. Would someone who played several other Mmos with long grinds want more of the same? Probably not and would want the other aspects to make up for it.
d. The Mmo has several features to make the long time to reach the end enjoyable. Saying a person wants to play a game with no ending just because seems to be a very niche request, and therefore it depends on how well developed as well.
For me, I have played too many Mmos, and want something that offers quality in terms of lore/story but does not suffer in implementing the Mmo aspect at the same time. So an Mmo with many features is important, or I would not want to spend time on something time consuming while something as important as pvp might be lacking.
Also I have not played an Mmo that was player driven that had fun pvp on the fly. So sand boxes are very time consuming as well to achieve the greater goals in the game.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
It all depends on the type of game and the reason for leveling.
UO and EVE are similar games, however in UO, you can max quickly whereas you would spend years maxing out in EVE.
If levelling is all your game has to offer, like most MMOs released in the past 5 or 6 years, then it probably should take a substantial amount of time. That doesn't seem to be the case, though, but that's a good thing (for players, at least) since it helps players realize it's another empty shell of an MMO and move on just that much sooner.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I don't believe MMO's should make you reach Max Level. Having some arbitrary number define your level of power has always left me dissapointed.
I long for an MMO where progression isn't determined by level or gear, but rather through Horizontal Progression & Skill.
Guild Wars 2 is kinda something like this isnt it?
I quit guild wars 2 after 1000+ hours because there wasnt ANY kind of progression, horizontal or vertical. Any ... I thought that crafting 2 legendaries will somehow make me stay for longer but nope ...
Sadly I cant stay with game that provides you only with ''fun''. ''Why you do WvW, there is no reason, no rewards..? I play it because its fun'' That wont work for me
I need to chase gear, skils, need some kind of visible progressions and competition ... rank or w/e
I don't believe MMO's should make you reach Max Level. Having some arbitrary number define your level of power has always left me dissapointed.
I long for an MMO where progression isn't determined by level or gear, but rather through Horizontal Progression & Skill.
Guild Wars 2 is kinda something like this isnt it?
I quit guild wars 2 after 1000+ hours because there wasnt ANY kind of progression, horizontal or vertical. Any ... I thought that crafting 2 legendaries will somehow make me stay for longer but nope ... Sadly I can stay with game that provides you only with ''fun'' I need to chase gear, skils, need some kind of visible competition ... rank or w/e
I would argue that the entire purpose of levels in GW2 is largely invalidated by the fact your level is reduced to match your zone. Although it does provides a soft barrier to entering certain areas 'too early'. GW2 feels like it was conceptualised as a game without traditional levels, but they lost their nerve at some point in the design process.
I would argue that the entire purpose of levels in GW2 is largely invalidated by the fact your level is reduced to match your zone. Although it does provides a soft barrier to entering certain areas 'too early'. GW2 feels like it was conceptualised as a game without traditional levels, but they lost their nerve at some point in the design process.
I dont want to turn this into some game dicussion so my last post about this ... I never cared about leveling, I always saw it as something you have to do no matter what.
I do care more about how long your maxxing out your character/developing him as much as possible takes. How much dedication and time you must put into it. Sadly In guild wars 2 it was almost minimum and easy. For me ... If game wants to remain the longetivity and wants me to play the game for years without any pauses or any major ones, it has to have really hard and long process in developing your character to max.
I really don't like the concept of "levels" for MMOs, despite the concept coming directly from the pen-and-paper RPGs that MMOs are mostly derived from.
To me, an MMO differs from other PC and console RPG games in that there should be no end in sight. There shouldn't be any defined start or middle for that matter. Each and every player should experience the game in their own unique way. The phrase "Easy to Learn, Difficult to Master" should be a key ingredient for an MMO.
Stepping back to the reality of the situation, and to focus more on the OPs question, I'd say that it should take a significant amount of playing time to reach that "end game" level status.
If someone were to invest a few hours a night, for a few nights a week, I'll just go ahead and guess that maybe it should take them a year to hit max level.
The built-in problem with this: if the player enjoys the game so much that they'd commit to a years time sort of means that they love it enough to play MORE then a few hours a night for MORE then a few nights a week; thus reducing the time to max level. So it's sort of a difficult question to answer.
Now I've confused myself. I'll just TLDR it: No levels, please.
Thanks all for the feedback so far. Great to see so many different thoughts on the matter. Keep them coming.
Rhino
Have you considered posting this question on other forums, as well? For example, GameDev.net would be another great place for this question.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Slightly Other since I choose all 6+ month options
Over 6 months as long as character progression and development was exciting, challenging and fun
Over 6 months as long as there is a strong community interaction in game
Over 6 months as long as I felt like I was in a great alternate reality
The level process should come naturaly or even by suprise. Meaning everything else should be that much fun that you don't even notice or need to lvl quickly.
Now with most of today's MMO's there isn't much of a journey or truly much to explore, so of course it shouldn't take to long since many developers seem to have this focus on "endgame" even though this so-called "endgame" should be feature's that should be playable during the whole leveling process.
Just give me a game where OP's 6+ months points can be applied too, a game that give you a mix of basic skills that could be anything ranging from crafting/healing/harvesting/combat, after "mastering all basic skills give me the option for something like Elite skills, where you can mix and match up to three professions but only fully master one.
If a game has levels followed by an "endgame" than the leveling period should be really short. A few days. Let it be a "tutorial" to get to know your class and a bit of the game mechanics, then let the "endgame" encompass the whole game.
I don't know why developers waste so many resources on leveling and throw them all away the moment you hit cap. You craft this huge world, but no one plays in it because everything is limited to the high end stuff. Poopy.
On the other hand, I would prefer no levels at all and more interesting ways to develop your character (not "leveling" skills, which is just another form of leveling).
Never! I want to keep going and have enough to where there are no ceilings and I can keep growing my character no matter how much I play or how long. I also want the diference between a level 1 and over 9000 to be pretty close. Maybe I just do not want levels.
Depends on the MMO if you restrict yourself to much to set of predefined rules then you end up making clones of other games, variety of MNMO's goes out the window look at the market over the years.
EvE Online - 21 years to learn all skills.
Face Of Mankind - No levels, just a few ranks to determine which role you can take in your faction and very easily attainable.
Original EQ. L2 - 6 months plus to max a toon through combat grinding.
Wurm Online - no levels just skills with soft caps, don't use them they regress, so you cannot max any toon.
SWG pre-cu & UO - limited to max point cap can take anything from a few weeks to months to build a toon.
Variety is good, doing things in a set way = clones = bad.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
If a game has levels followed by an "endgame" than the leveling period should be really short. A few days. Let it be a "tutorial" to get to know your class and a bit of the game mechanics, then let the "endgame" encompass the whole game.
I don't know why developers waste so many resources on leveling and throw them all away the moment you hit cap. You craft this huge world, but no one plays in it because everything is limited to the high end stuff. Poopy.
On the other hand, I would prefer no levels at all and more interesting ways to develop your character (not "leveling" skills, which is just another form of leveling).
More or less what I wanted to say.
Never understood and never will understand the obession some people have about wanting to grind rather than play the game.
80% of your player base should hit max level the same time your first paid expansion comes out. That is how WOW did it in the beginning and only makes logical sense today for any new game.
Either less than a month, or no traditional levels.
Games with long leveling times end up with population issues. Also its a pain to have alts for multiple roles. The less barriers to actually playing with other people the better. Its bad enough when I cant play properly with friends when they outlevel me by a few levels, and then you have to play catch up before you can do anything meaningful together.
But that is very seriously OldSkool. Doubt we'll ever see anything like it again. ("Endgame" referred to a very few players, that the devs paid no attention to--far smaller than the fabled "2-percenters", even).
I'd settle for 6 mos. That's going to be plenty hard enough to talk the developers (or the Player Horde) into.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Voted other because I'd say the perfect time for me to get to cap would be over 3 to 6 months (the poll has options for less than 3 months or more than 6). Granted, I like to take my time, so usually 3 months for me can be one or two weeks for someone else.
There is no limit to what you can do in reallife, either, and a MMO is a game you can potentially play from youth to old age.
If the players would slow down to a rate where the developers could stay ahead, the cap could go.
Ha. Sorry, still laughiing.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Comments
I didnt say I want endless L2 grind
I said I rather that than instantly maxxed out character ... There is also middle golden way which I hope is the way ARR is taking.
So why ARR? Because I love the graphics, gameplay and the world itself is amazing.
The whole idea of leveling each class withing one main character is also awesome. This means, that THIS FEATURE itself kinda promise the whole LONG and HARD maxxing out main character because even IF I max out for instance gladiator class with all the best gear, etc. I can just say to myself that now I level him as lancer or archer and get the appropriete gear
No more alts chasing game
And I really like how producer/director Naoki Yoshida is passionate about the game and I believe even if nothing else, this game will be sucess for this reason. Everyone knows that Japanese people work with theirs hearth and soul. They are nothing like western culture. I did spend a lot of time lately to read and watch all his and ARR videos, QAS, blogs, posts, etc. and thats why I am 100% sure that ARR will be blast, atleast for me.
So yea .. these are one of the major reasons.
This should be the voice of reason, but there are other considerations.
1. Why would a person want to spend a long time playing a game even as a theme park?
a. They must like the story, or lore.
b. they have a lot of time on their hands and want something that is challenging and time consuming
c. Are new to Mmos. Would someone who played several other Mmos with long grinds want more of the same? Probably not and would want the other aspects to make up for it.
d. The Mmo has several features to make the long time to reach the end enjoyable. Saying a person wants to play a game with no ending just because seems to be a very niche request, and therefore it depends on how well developed as well.
For me, I have played too many Mmos, and want something that offers quality in terms of lore/story but does not suffer in implementing the Mmo aspect at the same time. So an Mmo with many features is important, or I would not want to spend time on something time consuming while something as important as pvp might be lacking.
Also I have not played an Mmo that was player driven that had fun pvp on the fly. So sand boxes are very time consuming as well to achieve the greater goals in the game.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
I voted Other.
I don't believe MMO's should make you reach Max Level. Having some arbitrary number define your level of power has always left me dissapointed.
I long for an MMO where progression isn't determined by level or gear, but rather through Horizontal Progression & Skill.
"The problem with quotes from the Internet is that it's almost impossible to validate their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
It all depends on the type of game and the reason for leveling.
UO and EVE are similar games, however in UO, you can max quickly whereas you would spend years maxing out in EVE.
If levelling is all your game has to offer, like most MMOs released in the past 5 or 6 years, then it probably should take a substantial amount of time. That doesn't seem to be the case, though, but that's a good thing (for players, at least) since it helps players realize it's another empty shell of an MMO and move on just that much sooner.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Guild Wars 2 is kinda something like this isnt it?
I quit guild wars 2 after 1000+ hours because there wasnt ANY kind of progression, horizontal or vertical. Any ... I thought that crafting 2 legendaries will somehow make me stay for longer but nope ...
Sadly I cant stay with game that provides you only with ''fun''. ''Why you do WvW, there is no reason, no rewards..? I play it because its fun'' That wont work for me
I need to chase gear, skils, need some kind of visible progressions and competition ... rank or w/e
I would argue that the entire purpose of levels in GW2 is largely invalidated by the fact your level is reduced to match your zone. Although it does provides a soft barrier to entering certain areas 'too early'. GW2 feels like it was conceptualised as a game without traditional levels, but they lost their nerve at some point in the design process.
currently playing: DDO, AOC, WoT, P101
I dont want to turn this into some game dicussion so my last post about this ... I never cared about leveling, I always saw it as something you have to do no matter what.
I do care more about how long your maxxing out your character/developing him as much as possible takes. How much dedication and time you must put into it. Sadly In guild wars 2 it was almost minimum and easy. For me ... If game wants to remain the longetivity and wants me to play the game for years without any pauses or any major ones, it has to have really hard and long process in developing your character to max.
Thanks all for the feedback so far. Great to see so many different thoughts on the matter. Keep them coming.
Rhino
never
the whole concept of end game, where you have to reach some max level to participate is one of the worst things that ever happened to mmorpg genre
I really don't like the concept of "levels" for MMOs, despite the concept coming directly from the pen-and-paper RPGs that MMOs are mostly derived from.
To me, an MMO differs from other PC and console RPG games in that there should be no end in sight. There shouldn't be any defined start or middle for that matter. Each and every player should experience the game in their own unique way. The phrase "Easy to Learn, Difficult to Master" should be a key ingredient for an MMO.
Stepping back to the reality of the situation, and to focus more on the OPs question, I'd say that it should take a significant amount of playing time to reach that "end game" level status.
If someone were to invest a few hours a night, for a few nights a week, I'll just go ahead and guess that maybe it should take them a year to hit max level.
The built-in problem with this: if the player enjoys the game so much that they'd commit to a years time sort of means that they love it enough to play MORE then a few hours a night for MORE then a few nights a week; thus reducing the time to max level. So it's sort of a difficult question to answer.
Now I've confused myself. I'll just TLDR it: No levels, please.
Have you considered posting this question on other forums, as well? For example, GameDev.net would be another great place for this question.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Looking for a family that you can game with for life? Check out Grievance at https://www.grievancegaming.org !
Slightly Other since I choose all 6+ month options
Over 6 months as long as character progression and development was exciting, challenging and fun
Over 6 months as long as there is a strong community interaction in game
Over 6 months as long as I felt like I was in a great alternate reality
The level process should come naturaly or even by suprise. Meaning everything else should be that much fun that you don't even notice or need to lvl quickly.
Now with most of today's MMO's there isn't much of a journey or truly much to explore, so of course it shouldn't take to long since many developers seem to have this focus on "endgame" even though this so-called "endgame" should be feature's that should be playable during the whole leveling process.
Just give me a game where OP's 6+ months points can be applied too, a game that give you a mix of basic skills that could be anything ranging from crafting/healing/harvesting/combat, after "mastering all basic skills give me the option for something like Elite skills, where you can mix and match up to three professions but only fully master one.
If a game has levels followed by an "endgame" than the leveling period should be really short. A few days. Let it be a "tutorial" to get to know your class and a bit of the game mechanics, then let the "endgame" encompass the whole game.
I don't know why developers waste so many resources on leveling and throw them all away the moment you hit cap. You craft this huge world, but no one plays in it because everything is limited to the high end stuff. Poopy.
On the other hand, I would prefer no levels at all and more interesting ways to develop your character (not "leveling" skills, which is just another form of leveling).
Depends on the MMO if you restrict yourself to much to set of predefined rules then you end up making clones of other games, variety of MNMO's goes out the window look at the market over the years.
EvE Online - 21 years to learn all skills.
Face Of Mankind - No levels, just a few ranks to determine which role you can take in your faction and very easily attainable.
Original EQ. L2 - 6 months plus to max a toon through combat grinding.
Wurm Online - no levels just skills with soft caps, don't use them they regress, so you cannot max any toon.
SWG pre-cu & UO - limited to max point cap can take anything from a few weeks to months to build a toon.
Variety is good, doing things in a set way = clones = bad.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
More or less what I wanted to say.
Never understood and never will understand the obession some people have about wanting to grind rather than play the game.
Either less than a month, or no traditional levels.
Games with long leveling times end up with population issues. Also its a pain to have alts for multiple roles. The less barriers to actually playing with other people the better. Its bad enough when I cant play properly with friends when they outlevel me by a few levels, and then you have to play catch up before you can do anything meaningful together.
Will do.
Thanks for the suggestion.
over 1 decade.
But that is very seriously OldSkool. Doubt we'll ever see anything like it again. ("Endgame" referred to a very few players, that the devs paid no attention to--far smaller than the fabled "2-percenters", even).
I'd settle for 6 mos. That's going to be plenty hard enough to talk the developers (or the Player Horde) into.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I hate the concept of a "maxlevel".
There is no limit to what you can do in reallife, either, and a MMO is a game you can potentially play from youth to old age.
So I think levels should just get harder and harder to archieve, and mean less and less, over time.
Voted other because I'd say the perfect time for me to get to cap would be over 3 to 6 months (the poll has options for less than 3 months or more than 6). Granted, I like to take my time, so usually 3 months for me can be one or two weeks for someone else.
What can men do against such reckless hate?
If the players would slow down to a rate where the developers could stay ahead, the cap could go.
Ha. Sorry, still laughiing.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.