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"US free-to-play audience outnumbers pay-to-play 6 to 1"

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  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,503Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by greenreen
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by greenreen
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by allendale5

    So many people are responding to this thread with their opinion of f2p vs p2p, yet that is not even the point the OP was making; he/she was just stating that the f2p beat the p2p in revenue by a 6 to 1 margin.

    I, for one, am surprised that the f2p games beat the p2p games in revenue by a 6 to 1 margin.  I am also wondering how that was calculated and what this means for the state of the MMO as we know it. 

    No, the article was not talking about revenue. It briefly mentioned that F2P revenue was higher than P2P revenue in 2012. The article was talking about "active users." F2P active users, according to the article, have a 6 to 1 lead on P2P active users.

     

    Read it again here:

    http://www.superdataresearch.com/us-free-to-play-does-it-pay-to-switch/

    ...snip

    Jesus. The article was about how F2P games have a larger audience than P2P games. It was just attempting to state facts.

     

    One million users isn't big enough for you? Because you see posts about pay to win, you think F2P is shrinking? You can't get more anecdotal than that. You want to compare F2P gaming with welfare or some kind of blight on society in general? Crazysauce.

     

    Some of the stuff you say makes sense, but other stuff is just way out there and based on nothing at all. You just sound bitter. You act like the F2P world is fighting against you and you will do everything in your power to pay your share! I mean, Jesus, those sub games really have a grip on you. They have really managed to convince you that you are "doing the right thing." Does it make you feel good to pay them money every month?

    This is bigger than you think. It's akin to political debate in the opinions held. This isn't the first discussion on it. There are people around here that act like free games are the greatest thing since sliced bread and drop studies like this to "prove" it. They make these debates exist because they walk around flaunting not paying anything as if it's a model that can last forever while saying from the other side of their mouths that they pay nothing. Has any product in history ever sold because someone gave 90% of it away.

    Maybe if you were a programmer you would have the same mentality as me. I eat everyday because I get paid to program. I get people asking me for freebies all the time. Is my time not valuable? I put the same value on other programmers' time and effort. There are people that always ask for free web work from me, free information about their website and free things. I know that what I do deserves payment. I believe the same of other programmers. When I pay someone to make my game it's no different than people that pay me to make their website.

    Since you don't understand my personality - this might help you understand why I speak up on what I find repulsive and any pitfalls involved with it. I won't apologize for who I am. http://typelogic.com/intj.html You can disagree but come with some reasons is all I ask, not sentimental claptrap like - some people can't afford it - it's free like everything on the internet. The internet isn't all free and never was supposed to be. You pay to connect and that isn't the end of it. It's not a hobby for the destitute nor the services stemming from it.

    The problem is your reasoning isn't reasoning at all. It is an emotional response. What happens in your life - the people that ask you to work for free (a very strange phenomenon) - has no bearing on the discussion.

     

    Do you think that the programmers of studios that develop F2P games are not getting paid? If anything, F2P has saved many PAID developer jobs after games have gone F2P.

     

    You don't sound like an INTJ profile to me because you don't actually have any expertise in the payment model area. You can help me with programming, but you don't have the expertise required to make the kinds of claims you are making. You are using anecdotal evidence and opinion to support your "facts." The "does it work?" sniff test is clouded by opinion. That the F2P audience is larger than the P2P audience is a fact. And it makes logical sense since F2P is... free.

     

    Perhaps F2P isn't always going to have the largest audience like you claim to know for a fact in your other post. But it is currently growing much faster than P2P in both revenue and audience. There are pros and cons to both models, but I see it as a personal preference in the end. I personally find myself paying for some games and not others.

     

    PS2 - Bought 2000 station cash for a couple of weapons - no entry fee.

    GW2 - paid only for box but also bought a lot of store items with in game gold - box fee.

    EVE - pay monthly when I play and get pretty much everything  - sub, can also buy sub with in game cash.

    WoW - pay monthly when I play and get pretty much everything - box + sub.

     

    PS2 is not a blight on gaming. LotRO is not an evil entity that destroys the system. And WoW is certainly not the savior of payment models as we know it.

     

  • MMOGamer71MMOGamer71 Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 1,930Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    http://www.superdataresearch.com/us-free-to-play-does-it-pay-to-switch/

    "If you were to look at the growth of the audience alone, the market for F2P games is substantially larger than that for pay-to-play. Six times larger, in fact."

    "Subscription-based MMOs have been on a decline in the US, dropping from 8.5MM in December 2009 to 6.7MM in October 2012."

    "So, yes, it would appear that F2P may be a viable revenue model, partly because of the large number of gamers it attracts. But traffic alone is not a definitive measure of success. Overall spending may follow a very different trend depending on a game’s life cycle, player base and genre.

    The good news is that in 2012, F2P MMOs made more than their P2P counterparts, capturing the majority of the MMO US market’s revenue. The tricky part lies in how to capture and replicate this success."

     

     

    Probably because those released as subscription were not worthy of being a subscription based game.

  • greenreengreenreen Punchoo, AKPosts: 2,101Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by greenreen
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by greenreen
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by allendale5

    So many people are responding to this thread with their opinion of f2p vs p2p, yet that is not even the point the OP was making; he/she was just stating that the f2p beat the p2p in revenue by a 6 to 1 margin.

    I, for one, am surprised that the f2p games beat the p2p games in revenue by a 6 to 1 margin.  I am also wondering how that was calculated and what this means for the state of the MMO as we know it. 

    No, the article was not talking about revenue. It briefly mentioned that F2P revenue was higher than P2P revenue in 2012. The article was talking about "active users." F2P active users, according to the article, have a 6 to 1 lead on P2P active users.

     

    Read it again here:

    http://www.superdataresearch.com/us-free-to-play-does-it-pay-to-switch/

    ...snip

    Jesus. The article was about how F2P games have a larger audience than P2P games. It was just attempting to state facts.

     

    One million users isn't big enough for you? Because you see posts about pay to win, you think F2P is shrinking? You can't get more anecdotal than that. You want to compare F2P gaming with welfare or some kind of blight on society in general? Crazysauce.

     

    Some of the stuff you say makes sense, but other stuff is just way out there and based on nothing at all. You just sound bitter. You act like the F2P world is fighting against you and you will do everything in your power to pay your share! I mean, Jesus, those sub games really have a grip on you. They have really managed to convince you that you are "doing the right thing." Does it make you feel good to pay them money every month?

    This is bigger than you think. It's akin to political debate in the opinions held. This isn't the first discussion on it. There are people around here that act like free games are the greatest thing since sliced bread and drop studies like this to "prove" it. They make these debates exist because they walk around flaunting not paying anything as if it's a model that can last forever while saying from the other side of their mouths that they pay nothing. Has any product in history ever sold because someone gave 90% of it away.

    Maybe if you were a programmer you would have the same mentality as me. I eat everyday because I get paid to program. I get people asking me for freebies all the time. Is my time not valuable? I put the same value on other programmers' time and effort. There are people that always ask for free web work from me, free information about their website and free things. I know that what I do deserves payment. I believe the same of other programmers. When I pay someone to make my game it's no different than people that pay me to make their website.

    Since you don't understand my personality - this might help you understand why I speak up on what I find repulsive and any pitfalls involved with it. I won't apologize for who I am. http://typelogic.com/intj.html You can disagree but come with some reasons is all I ask, not sentimental claptrap like - some people can't afford it - it's free like everything on the internet. The internet isn't all free and never was supposed to be. You pay to connect and that isn't the end of it. It's not a hobby for the destitute nor the services stemming from it.

    The problem is your reasoning isn't reasoning at all. It is an emotional response. What happens in your life - the people that ask you to work for free (a very strange phenomenon) - has no bearing on the discussion.

     

    Do you think that the programmers of studios that develop F2P games are not getting paid? If anything, F2P has saved many PAID developer jobs after games have gone F2P.

     

    You don't sound like an INTJ profile to me because you don't actually have any expertise in the payment model area. You can help me with programming, but you don't have the expertise required to make the kinds of claims you are making. You are using anecdotal evidence and opinion to support your "facts." The "does it work?" sniff test is clouded by opinion. That the F2P audience is larger than the P2P audience is a fact. And it makes logical sense since F2P is... free.

     

    Perhaps F2P isn't always going to have the largest audience like you claim to know for a fact in your other post. But it is currently growing much faster than P2P in both revenue and audience. There are pros and cons to both models, but I see it as a personal preference in the end. I personally find myself paying for some games and not others.

     

    PS2 - Bought 2000 station cash for a couple of weapons - no entry fee.

    GW2 - paid only for box but also bought a lot of store items with in game gold - box fee.

    EVE - pay monthly when I play and get pretty much everything  - sub, can also buy sub with in game cash.

    WoW - pay monthly when I play and get pretty much everything - box + sub.

     

    PS2 is not a blight on gaming. LotRO is not an evil entity that destroys the system. And WoW is certainly not the savior of payment models as we know it.

     

    Incorrect.

    Logic is as stated.

    I expect to be paid for programming - I expect to pay others for programming. Nothing emotional about that. This is a skill just like a plumber earns. I don't work on my own pipes, I pay others to bring in their expertise. I would never have the nerve to call them up and say - it's broken - can you fix it for free.

    There is no logic breach.

    F2P is not free, someone is paying for it. Someone is not paying the same for it, that is how I know the model has problems. For one group to pay more, they are doing it for approval. For one group to pay less or nothing, they are doing it to either justify dissatisfaction, they are broke as a joke, or they want someone to pay for them. If it's for dissatisfaction, the game needs to leave the playing field or the players need to leave. If they are broke, they need to take on a cheaper hobby and quit living outside their means or putting on airs that they have means. If they want someone to pay for them, they are the ones I especially consider road dirt - that's not emotion, it's basic judgement against someone being a bottom dweller. Society doesn't like people that don't try. Emotion is when I support them and say - oh just till they get back on their feet. We haven't even dipped into the marketing aspect of all this. Sub games are a limited cost yet micro-transaction game have no ceiling on what can be paid. Who wins on that side when you can program the game to need the things you put in the micro-transaction shop. How is this not obvious to other people. Surely I'm not the only one seeing the connection that you make something as a gateway to sell something else. I'm not, others have noted it.

    I'm most def. INTJ, I've taken the test over and over in schools. Don't even think you know what I know about this, I hang out with some indie devs that have plenty of insight. I am, in fact, making my own game. I wouldn't discuss it if I thought I had bad views and it weren't thoroughly researched. When it all falls apart there's only one thing people will be saying. You didn't go unwarned that it couldn't stand up for itself. Maybe that link didn't help you understand anything. "Does it work" isn't the focus here. The pertinent INTJ feature is the "morale cause" aspect which led you to believe it was bitterness. We speak strongly on things that alert us and others read as something different. The best way I can explain it is a need to warn others when you know the house is on fire instead of running out the door and saving yourself alone.

    I feel like I'm repeating myself and you aren't adding anything that means you aren't listening - now you are bringing up specific games when the discussion was about the whole of the pie. Getting into specific games is just going to make this tread longer.

     

     

  • DogblasterDogblaster PraguePosts: 491Member
    For all I care, people that want to play free games can go pick up sticks and rocks and play cowboys and indians in the woods. That's a free game. Tainting MMOs with the need to be free to satisfy slackers that want to be involved in grown folks bidness but can't afford it can head on down the road to cheapo town.

    This xD Exactly this ...

     

    By the way.. Are those rocks and sticks F2P? They might not want to pay subscription for it, 12 bucks too much.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,680Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by greenreen

    This is bigger than you think. It's akin to political debate in the opinions held. This isn't the first discussion on it. There are people around here that act like free games are the greatest thing since sliced bread and drop studies like this to "prove" it. They make these debates exist because they walk around flaunting not paying anything as if it's a model that can last forever while saying from the other side of their mouths that they pay nothing.

    You don't see there's a lot of assumption and emotion there and not much fact?

    Has any product in history ever sold because someone gave 90% of it away.

    • Razors
    • Printers
    • Mobile Phones
    EDIT: removed the rest of my post because this is all getting far too weird.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,503Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by greenreen

    Incorrect.

    Logic is as stated.

    I expect to be paid for programming - I expect to pay others for programming. Nothing emotional about that. This is a skill just like a plumber earns. I don't work on my own pipes, I pay others to bring in their expertise. I would never have the nerve to call them up and say - it's broken - can you fix it for free.

    There is no logic breach.

    F2P is not free, someone is paying for it. Someone is not paying the same for it, that is how I know the model has problems. For one group to pay more, they are doing it for approval. For one group to pay less or nothing, they are doing it to either justify dissatisfaction, they are broke as a joke, or they want someone to pay for them. If it's for dissatisfaction, the game needs to leave the playing field or the players need to leave. If the are broke, they need to take on a cheaper hobby and quit living outside their means. If they want someone to pay for them, they are the ones I especially consider road dirt.

    I'm most def. INTJ, I've taken the test over and over in schools. Don't even think you know what I know about this, I hang out with some indie devs that have plenty of insight. I am, in fact, making my own game. I wouldn't discuss it if I thought I had bad views and it weren't thoroughly researched. When it all falls apart there's only one thing people will be saying. You didn't go unwarned that it couldn't stand up for itself. Maybe that link didn't help you understand anything. "Does it work" isn't the focus here. The pertinent INTJ feature is the "morale cause" aspect. We speak strongly on things that alert us and others read as something different. The best way I can explain it is a need to warn others when you know the house is on fire instead of running out the door and saving yourself alone.

    I feel like I'm repeating myself and you aren't adding anything that means you aren't listening - now you are bringing up specific games when the discussion was about the whole of the pie. Getting into specific games is just going to make this tread longer.

    You are repeating yourself.

     

    As an INTJ, you have completely missed the thinking part and went straight to judging. I'm really happy for you that you think you are warning everyone of the eminent downfall of F2P gaming - it probably feels good to be so right about something. But at least back it up with something more than - I am an INTJ type personality and we are always right about things with or without any evidence.

     

    This is a good example of your strong bias and lack of evidence. You say:

     

    "For one group to pay less or nothing, they are doing it to either justify dissatisfaction, they are broke as a joke, or they want someone to pay for them."

     

    Since none of those are true for me, you are obviously looking over at least one segment of the population and focusing on your own perception of what MUST be true about gamers that play for free or very little. You assume assume assume and then back up your claims by saying that you understand things better or differently. After all, you are "making a game." You must have a greater understanding. I'm not buying it and no one else should either.

     

    Not liking the F2P model is one thing - that I can understand. But the doom and gloom speech about the downfall of F2P during it's enormous expansion is not only premature, but to me at least, ludicrous.

  • WolfenprideWolfenpride San''doria, WIPosts: 3,988Member

    I'm not a terribly huge fan of the f2p model generally, but the way I see it is why would I spend money to play say, World of Warcraft, when I could play EQ2/Vanguard/Aion/any free to play themepark clone and get more or less the same experience in terms of gameplay?

     

    I believe if something genuinely unique and polished came out that plenty of the current f2p playerbase would be willing to pay a subscription for it. I'm not entirely up to date with how strong Eve Online is running these days, but I think that's a good example of one of the few largely sub based games still running strong. Unless everyone is playing off plex now or something.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,680Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Wolfenpride

    I'm not a terribly huge fan of the f2p model generally, but the way I see it is why would I spend money to play say, World of Warcraft, when I could play EQ2/Vanguard/Aion/any free to play themepark clone and get more or less the same experience in terms of gameplay?

    I believe if something genuinely unique and polished came out that plenty of the current f2p playerbase would be willing to pay a subscription for it. I'm not entirely up to date with how strong Eve Online is running these days, but I think that's a good example of one of the few largely sub based games still running strong. Unless everyone is playing off plex now or something.

    EVE is doing pretty damn amazing. Yeah, I'm biased, but seriously... lots of new players, expansions that seem to be making the veteran players happy, a universe that has expanded beyond platform boundaries, and a playerbase across both platforms that is just absolutely kickass.

     

    Again, I'm biased, but it seems to be doing pretty damn amazing. :D

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • greenreengreenreen Punchoo, AKPosts: 2,101Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by greenreen

    Incorrect.

    Logic is as stated.

    I expect to be paid for programming - I expect to pay others for programming. Nothing emotional about that. This is a skill just like a plumber earns. I don't work on my own pipes, I pay others to bring in their expertise. I would never have the nerve to call them up and say - it's broken - can you fix it for free.

    There is no logic breach.

    F2P is not free, someone is paying for it. Someone is not paying the same for it, that is how I know the model has problems. For one group to pay more, they are doing it for approval. For one group to pay less or nothing, they are doing it to either justify dissatisfaction, they are broke as a joke, or they want someone to pay for them. If it's for dissatisfaction, the game needs to leave the playing field or the players need to leave. If the are broke, they need to take on a cheaper hobby and quit living outside their means. If they want someone to pay for them, they are the ones I especially consider road dirt.

    I'm most def. INTJ, I've taken the test over and over in schools. Don't even think you know what I know about this, I hang out with some indie devs that have plenty of insight. I am, in fact, making my own game. I wouldn't discuss it if I thought I had bad views and it weren't thoroughly researched. When it all falls apart there's only one thing people will be saying. You didn't go unwarned that it couldn't stand up for itself. Maybe that link didn't help you understand anything. "Does it work" isn't the focus here. The pertinent INTJ feature is the "morale cause" aspect. We speak strongly on things that alert us and others read as something different. The best way I can explain it is a need to warn others when you know the house is on fire instead of running out the door and saving yourself alone.

    I feel like I'm repeating myself and you aren't adding anything that means you aren't listening - now you are bringing up specific games when the discussion was about the whole of the pie. Getting into specific games is just going to make this tread longer.

    You are repeating yourself.

     

    As an INTJ, you have completely missed the thinking part and went straight to judging. I'm really happy for you that you think you are warning everyone of the eminent downfall of F2P gaming - it probably feels good to be so right about something. But at least back it up with something more than - I am an INTJ type personality and we are always right about things with or without any evidence.

     

    This is a good example of your strong bias and lack of evidence. You say:

     

    "For one group to pay less or nothing, they are doing it to either justify dissatisfaction, they are broke as a joke, or they want someone to pay for them."

     

    Since none of those are true for me, you are obviously looking over at least one segment of the population and focusing on your own perception of what MUST be true about gamers that play for free or very little. You assume assume assume and then back up your claims by saying that you understand things better or differently. After all, you are "making a game." You must have a greater understanding. I'm not buying it and no one else should either.

     

    Not liking the F2P model is one thing - that I can understand. But the doom and gloom speech about the downfall of F2P during it's enormous expansion is not only premature, but to me at least, ludicrous.

    LOL, I had to laugh at that always right.

    So stop beating around the bush - what reason is it that you aren't paying them the same as a sub game? If you are the rare person that is not like the others, give me the reason that you aren't paying what you would for a sub game - be it more or less. Tell the world why you should pay less. What made you so aware that 15 bucks a month is too much, nay 5 a month is too much to pay a month (runescape). Clue me in because I don't read minds even though I am all powerful in other regards :P Careful - it can't be a complaint about something or that would be dissatisfaction.

    I don't assume anything that hasn't come from human lips, on this forum and others, and from others in real life. You think the dev that I know who went platinum with a flash game never gave me any ideas on how people purchase games. You let me explain my different personality. I'd like to understand your different spending pattern. Stop playing footsies. I will report the info back to that dev.

     

     

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,680Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by greenreen

    LOL, I had to laugh at that always right.

    So stop beating around the bush - what reason is it that you aren't paying them the same as a sub game? If you are the rare person that is not like the others, give me the reason that you aren't paying what you would for a sub game - be it more or less. Tell the world why you should pay less. What made you so aware that 15 bucks a month is too much, nay 5 a month is too much to pay a month (runescape). Clue me in because I don't read minds even though I am all powerful in other regards :P Careful - it can't be a complaint about something or that would be dissatisfaction.

    Because it's free.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,503Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by greenreen

    LOL, I had to laugh at that always right.

    So stop beating around the bush - what reason is it that you aren't paying them the same as a sub game? If you are the rare person that is not like the others, give me the reason that you aren't paying what you would for a sub game - be it more or less. Tell the world why you should pay less. What made you so aware that 15 bucks a month is too much, nay 5 a month is too much to pay a month (runescape). Clue me in because I don't read minds even though I am all powerful in other regards :P Careful - it can't be a complaint about something or that would be dissatisfaction.

    I play F2P games because they are fun. It's pretty simple. If I don't see a reason to pay, I don't. If I want something, I do.

     

    I play sub games as well btw.

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    Originally posted by greenreen

     

    Has any product in history ever sold because someone gave 90% of it away.

    • Razors
    • Printers
    • Mobile Phones

    They are more like subscriptions, once you stop buying the ink (subscription) you can't use the printer (cheap box) same for Razors and Phones(locked to network).

     

    Personally I am happy paying a sub when I want to play a game and stopping it when I don't. I prefer the ?evel playing field, if you still want to have a gimped access to a game but feel its not worth throwing a few bucks at the cash shop anymore, that seems odd to me, I would rather just not play until I was happy to pay for the full experience again.

  • greenreengreenreen Punchoo, AKPosts: 2,101Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by greenreen

    LOL, I had to laugh at that always right.

    So stop beating around the bush - what reason is it that you aren't paying them the same as a sub game? If you are the rare person that is not like the others, give me the reason that you aren't paying what you would for a sub game - be it more or less. Tell the world why you should pay less. What made you so aware that 15 bucks a month is too much, nay 5 a month is too much to pay a month (runescape). Clue me in because I don't read minds even though I am all powerful in other regards :P Careful - it can't be a complaint about something or that would be dissatisfaction.

    I play F2P games because they are fun. It's pretty simple. If I don't see a reason to pay, I don't. If I want something, I do.

     

    I play sub games as well btw.

    Vague. Figures. Convo complete.

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member

    Yeah... I am begining to see why people consider this a forum just for lols and trolls... The amount of pig headed bias on the side of hard line P2Pers is... remarkable... but then again... same people for whom WoW went down the shitter and SWTOR was born as a clone of WoW and not something much better (a revival of the pre-cu SWG system for example).

     

    As is I will state this again: P2P, in its classic form is dying, freemium variants of it may live on but it is dying because the quality and quantity of games has inverted in comparison to the golden age of P2P (lots of games but few good ones in the lot and fewer great ones than before during the initial expansion phase of MMOs) ergo people who've been burned once are far, far less likely to buy a box and sub for your game, they might sub if you have a good trial (EVE) or they might buy the box and play for free (GW1&GW2) but not both. This isn't the slacker/entitled/cheapskate/whatever generation, this is the era where the developers have to earn the right to our money because they are no longer of a select group, there are hundreds of groups of developers around the world with games of differing qualities so to ask someone to pay up front to play your game smacks of arrogance regardless if you're Bioware, Blizzard, whoever, people today demand real tangible proof that your game is "da shizz" it claims to be and that's only possible either in a balanced freemium game or in a true free to play game (where nothing is gated by the cash shop, you either spend cash or time to get everything in-game).

    image
  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,503Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by greenreen
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by greenreen

    LOL, I had to laugh at that always right.

    So stop beating around the bush - what reason is it that you aren't paying them the same as a sub game? If you are the rare person that is not like the others, give me the reason that you aren't paying what you would for a sub game - be it more or less. Tell the world why you should pay less. What made you so aware that 15 bucks a month is too much, nay 5 a month is too much to pay a month (runescape). Clue me in because I don't read minds even though I am all powerful in other regards :P Careful - it can't be a complaint about something or that would be dissatisfaction.

    I play F2P games because they are fun. It's pretty simple. If I don't see a reason to pay, I don't. If I want something, I do.

     

    I play sub games as well btw.

    Vague. Figures. Convo complete.

    I can see how such a simple answer could be difficult for you to deal with after all the effort you put into spinning F2P into an eventual complete and utter failure. But what I said was the truth. I, and many others, don't fit into the little box you created to justify your biased viewpoint.

     

    Your crusade would make a lot more sense if you actually admitted that it is completely based on your opinion. I'm not arguing that people should pay zero to play games. I'm saying that the F2P audience is much larger right now and that it is growing faster than P2P. You are trying to convince people, contrary to all evidence, that F2P is doomed to fail. And you use anecdotal evidence and opinion to back up your claims. What's worse is that you start trying to justify your viewpoint by saying you are making a game and that you are an INTJ personality.

     

    Convo complete? Yeah, I guess so. But most of what you said certainly isn't convincing me.

     

  • OnomasOnomas Rock Hill, SCPosts: 1,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    http://www.superdataresearch.com/us-free-to-play-does-it-pay-to-switch/

    "If you were to look at the growth of the audience alone, the market for F2P games is substantially larger than that for pay-to-play. Six times larger, in fact."

    "Subscription-based MMOs have been on a decline in the US, dropping from 8.5MM in December 2009 to 6.7MM in October 2012."

    "So, yes, it would appear that F2P may be a viable revenue model, partly because of the large number of gamers it attracts. But traffic alone is not a definitive measure of success. Overall spending may follow a very different trend depending on a game’s life cycle, player base and genre.

    The good news is that in 2012, F2P MMOs made more than their P2P counterparts, capturing the majority of the MMO US market’s revenue. The tricky part lies in how to capture and replicate this success."

     

     

    And the crap wow clones and cookie cutter mmorpgs outnumber good quality games 20 to 1.......... point?

    I would play any game for free, but only the good ones get my money. Doesnt mean subscription is a bad pay model, just means the games arent worth the investment of fund every month.

  • greenreengreenreen Punchoo, AKPosts: 2,101Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by greenreen
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by greenreen

    LOL, I had to laugh at that always right.

    So stop beating around the bush - what reason is it that you aren't paying them the same as a sub game? If you are the rare person that is not like the others, give me the reason that you aren't paying what you would for a sub game - be it more or less. Tell the world why you should pay less. What made you so aware that 15 bucks a month is too much, nay 5 a month is too much to pay a month (runescape). Clue me in because I don't read minds even though I am all powerful in other regards :P Careful - it can't be a complaint about something or that would be dissatisfaction.

    I play F2P games because they are fun. It's pretty simple. If I don't see a reason to pay, I don't. If I want something, I do.

     

    I play sub games as well btw.

    Vague. Figures. Convo complete.

    I can see how such a simple answer could be difficult for you to deal with after all the effort you put into spinning F2P into an eventual complete and utter failure. But what I said was the truth. I, and many others, don't fit into the little box you created to justify your biased viewpoint.

     

    Your crusade would make a lot more sense if you actually admitted that it is completely based on your opinion. I'm not arguing that people should pay zero to play games. I'm saying that the F2P audience is much larger right now and that it is growing faster than P2P. You are trying to convince people, contrary to all evidence, that F2P is doomed to fail. And you use anecdotal evidence and opinion to back up your claims. What's worse is that you start trying to justify your viewpoint by saying you are making a game and that you are an INTJ personality.

     

    Convo complete? Yeah, I guess so. But most of what you said certainly isn't convincing me.

     

    My INTJ lets me see right through you as transparent.

    Hey fluffikins, what did I type at the top of the post I made, it was opinion. Opinion though based on information from people that have sold games peppered with information from people that talk about why they purchase games.  Not unfounded ramblings. Chide my expertise yet yours is in your lap under the napkin. I made logical arguments and made them real easy to understand with simple words.

    You didn't state a reason because your reason is trying to gain satisfaction which means you are in a state of dissatisfaction without what you buy. This is like debating with kiddiewinks day. Just because someone doesn't gloat it doesn't mean they think they lost anything. It is complete because you aren't interesting enough. You are being too easy to pin down. The worst part is that you don't admit that you do purchase less when you aren't satisfied. Being unable to analyze yourself makes you a bad candidate for debate with me. I lay it all out on the table.

    You do exactly what I said, you devalue the developer's time and training and decide that payment wouldn't behoove you and you do it only when it satisfies you, that is everything I stated. I'm not unhappy to inform you, you turned out to be the norm.

    You may as well have responded with derrrrrrrrr.

     

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,503Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by greenreen
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by greenreen
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by greenreen

    LOL, I had to laugh at that always right.

    So stop beating around the bush - what reason is it that you aren't paying them the same as a sub game? If you are the rare person that is not like the others, give me the reason that you aren't paying what you would for a sub game - be it more or less. Tell the world why you should pay less. What made you so aware that 15 bucks a month is too much, nay 5 a month is too much to pay a month (runescape). Clue me in because I don't read minds even though I am all powerful in other regards :P Careful - it can't be a complaint about something or that would be dissatisfaction.

    I play F2P games because they are fun. It's pretty simple. If I don't see a reason to pay, I don't. If I want something, I do.

     

    I play sub games as well btw.

    Vague. Figures. Convo complete.

    I can see how such a simple answer could be difficult for you to deal with after all the effort you put into spinning F2P into an eventual complete and utter failure. But what I said was the truth. I, and many others, don't fit into the little box you created to justify your biased viewpoint.

     

    Your crusade would make a lot more sense if you actually admitted that it is completely based on your opinion. I'm not arguing that people should pay zero to play games. I'm saying that the F2P audience is much larger right now and that it is growing faster than P2P. You are trying to convince people, contrary to all evidence, that F2P is doomed to fail. And you use anecdotal evidence and opinion to back up your claims. What's worse is that you start trying to justify your viewpoint by saying you are making a game and that you are an INTJ personality.

     

    Convo complete? Yeah, I guess so. But most of what you said certainly isn't convincing me.

     

    My INTJ let's me see right through you as transparent.

    Hey fluffikins, what did I type at the top of the post I made, it was opinion. Opinion though based on information from people that have sold games peppered with information from people that talk about why they purchase games.  Not unfounded ramblings.

    You didn't state a reason because your reason is trying to gain satisfaction which means you are in a state of dissatisfaction without what you buy. This is like debating with kiddiewinks day. Just because someone doesn't gloat it doesn't mean they think they lost anything. It is complete because you aren't interesting enough. You are being too easy to pin down. The worst part is that you don't admit that you do purchase less when you aren't satisfied.

    You do exactly what I said, you devalue the developer's time and training and decide that payment wouldn't behoove you and you do it only when it satisfies you, that is everything I stated. I'm not unhappy to inform you, you turned out to be the norm.

    You may as well have responded with derrrrrrrrr.

    Mhm.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Onomas
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    http://www.superdataresearch.com/us-free-to-play-does-it-pay-to-switch/

    "If you were to look at the growth of the audience alone, the market for F2P games is substantially larger than that for pay-to-play. Six times larger, in fact."

    "Subscription-based MMOs have been on a decline in the US, dropping from 8.5MM in December 2009 to 6.7MM in October 2012."

    "So, yes, it would appear that F2P may be a viable revenue model, partly because of the large number of gamers it attracts. But traffic alone is not a definitive measure of success. Overall spending may follow a very different trend depending on a game’s life cycle, player base and genre.

    The good news is that in 2012, F2P MMOs made more than their P2P counterparts, capturing the majority of the MMO US market’s revenue. The tricky part lies in how to capture and replicate this success."

     

     

    And the crap wow clones and cookie cutter mmorpgs outnumber good quality games 20 to 1.......... point?

    I would play any game for free, but only the good ones get my money. Doesnt mean subscription is a bad pay model, just means the games arent worth the investment of fund every month.

    Point? Given so much "interests" in discussing F2P in this forum (and don't tell me you don't notice the many threads, and the high post count on this one), i figure i will put up some real information.

    Weren't you curious of how the market split? I am.

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Originally posted by greenreen
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by greenreen
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by greenreen

    LOL, I had to laugh at that always right.

    So stop beating around the bush - what reason is it that you aren't paying them the same as a sub game? If you are the rare person that is not like the others, give me the reason that you aren't paying what you would for a sub game - be it more or less. Tell the world why you should pay less. What made you so aware that 15 bucks a month is too much, nay 5 a month is too much to pay a month (runescape). Clue me in because I don't read minds even though I am all powerful in other regards :P Careful - it can't be a complaint about something or that would be dissatisfaction.

    I play F2P games because they are fun. It's pretty simple. If I don't see a reason to pay, I don't. If I want something, I do.

     

    I play sub games as well btw.

    Vague. Figures. Convo complete.

    I can see how such a simple answer could be difficult for you to deal with after all the effort you put into spinning F2P into an eventual complete and utter failure. But what I said was the truth. I, and many others, don't fit into the little box you created to justify your biased viewpoint.

     

    Your crusade would make a lot more sense if you actually admitted that it is completely based on your opinion. I'm not arguing that people should pay zero to play games. I'm saying that the F2P audience is much larger right now and that it is growing faster than P2P. You are trying to convince people, contrary to all evidence, that F2P is doomed to fail. And you use anecdotal evidence and opinion to back up your claims. What's worse is that you start trying to justify your viewpoint by saying you are making a game and that you are an INTJ personality.

     

    Convo complete? Yeah, I guess so. But most of what you said certainly isn't convincing me.

     

    My INTJ let's me see right through you as transparent.

    Hey fluffikins, what did I type at the top of the post I made, it was opinion. Opinion though based on information from people that have sold games peppered with information from people that talk about why they purchase games.  Not unfounded ramblings. Chide my expertise yet yours is in your lap under the napkin. I made logical arguments and made them real easy to understand with simple words.

    You didn't state a reason because your reason is trying to gain satisfaction which means you are in a state of dissatisfaction without what you buy. This is like debating with kiddiewinks day. Just because someone doesn't gloat it doesn't mean they think they lost anything. It is complete because you aren't interesting enough. You are being too easy to pin down. The worst part is that you don't admit that you do purchase less when you aren't satisfied. Being unable to analyze yourself makes you a bad candidate for debate with me. I lay it all out on the table.

    You do exactly what I said, you devalue the developer's time and training and decide that payment wouldn't behoove you and you do it only when it satisfies you, that is everything I stated. I'm not unhappy to inform you, you turned out to be the norm.

    You may as well have responded with derrrrrrrrr.

     

    I truly hope your mentality dies out amongst developers because it shows nothing more than a narrow minded approach to a very broad and multicoloured subject. As I have stated many times in the past a good developer (not even a great one) will know how to weave a F2P model into their gameplay such that it does not cheapen the overall game merely that it offers ways to speed along progress or to augment the player's individuality within the community.

     

    That said I will state this much: The only person on this entire forum who has ever devalued developers in any way shape or form is you, by stating such opinions as fact and denigrating people whom very shortly will be your main consumer base and then having the audacity to claim it is somehow a view held by a majority of developers. Perhaps the lazy ones, or the ones to stuck in their ways but I doubt a real developer would shrink at the possibility of making a good game people could enjoy for free that does not mean he does not get paid.

    image
  • OnomasOnomas Rock Hill, SCPosts: 1,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Onomas
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    http://www.superdataresearch.com/us-free-to-play-does-it-pay-to-switch/

    "If you were to look at the growth of the audience alone, the market for F2P games is substantially larger than that for pay-to-play. Six times larger, in fact."

    "Subscription-based MMOs have been on a decline in the US, dropping from 8.5MM in December 2009 to 6.7MM in October 2012."

    "So, yes, it would appear that F2P may be a viable revenue model, partly because of the large number of gamers it attracts. But traffic alone is not a definitive measure of success. Overall spending may follow a very different trend depending on a game’s life cycle, player base and genre.

    The good news is that in 2012, F2P MMOs made more than their P2P counterparts, capturing the majority of the MMO US market’s revenue. The tricky part lies in how to capture and replicate this success."

     

     

    And the crap wow clones and cookie cutter mmorpgs outnumber good quality games 20 to 1.......... point?

    I would play any game for free, but only the good ones get my money. Doesnt mean subscription is a bad pay model, just means the games arent worth the investment of fund every month.

    Point? Given so much "interests" in discussing F2P in this forum (and don't tell me you don't notice the many threads, and the high post count on this one), i figure i will put up some real information.

    Weren't you curious of how the market split? I am.

    Games started to suck and people didnt want to pay for single player console games online anymore. But was ok for them to play if it was free ;)

    But many F2P games fail and went under also, and many more are losing players as well. Its not about the pay scale, its all about the quality of the mmorpg's being released. It has changed over the years and not for the better.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Dihoru

    As is I will state this again: P2P, in its classic form is dying, freemium variants of it may live on but it is dying because the quality and quantity of games has inverted in comparison to the golden age of P2P (lots of games but few good ones in the lot and fewer great ones than before during the initial expansion phase of MMOs) ergo people who've been burned once are far, far less likely to buy a box and sub for your game, they might sub if you have a good trial (EVE) or they might buy the box and play for free (GW1&GW2) but not both. This isn't the slacker/entitled/cheapskate/whatever generation, this is the era where the developers have to earn the right to our money because they are no longer of a select group, there are hundreds of groups of developers around the world with games of differing qualities so to ask someone to pay up front to play your game smacks of arrogance regardless if you're Bioware, Blizzard, whoever, people today demand real tangible proof that your game is "da shizz" it claims to be and that's only possible either in a balanced freemium game or in a true free to play game (where nothing is gated by the cash shop, you either spend cash or time to get everything in-game).

    There is one more reason. People don't want commitments of a sub game. They want to play many games with no string attached.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Onomas
     

    Games started to suck and people didnt want to pay for single player console games online anymore. But was ok for them to play if it was free ;)

     

    You miss this part? "The good news is that in 2012, F2P MMOs made more than their P2P counterparts, capturing the majority of the MMO US market’s revenue."

    Some (the whales) are paying.

    And of course it is ok to play if it was free ... as long as the game is fun. Who does not love cheap entertainment?

     

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member
    Originally posted by Rossboss

    If you believe Blizzard, EA, and smaller developers aren't sharing your data, let me welcome you to the era of Facebook where you can freely share your own data to others and tell them how many cows you e-milked today.

    The study is not specifically stand-alone MMORPGs either, make note of that.

    I'd imagine it includes smart phone applications and Facebook games alike.

    I didn't generate this study nor do I claim to see this as the holy grail of all writing.

     ROFLMAO!

    Wait, you actually believe that a publically held company can hide data on their products? Even EA, trying to hide the issues with SWTOR have no choice but eventually bring it up in conferrence calls...hell, their last one where they lumped SWTOR in with 2 other games had to release it on paper afterwards.

    When there are public shareholders, they cant hide anything...its the smaller companies that have no public option that CAN withold information.

    Just like you mouthbreathers can deny F2P is making massive money all you want but when a company like Nexon is dropping over 400 million to buyout other companies....reality laughs at you.

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • craftseekercraftseeker kynetonPosts: 849Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Originally posted by Rossboss

    If you believe Blizzard, EA, and smaller developers aren't sharing your data, let me welcome you to the era of Facebook where you can freely share your own data to others and tell them how many cows you e-milked today.

    The study is not specifically stand-alone MMORPGs either, make note of that.

    I'd imagine it includes smart phone applications and Facebook games alike.

    I didn't generate this study nor do I claim to see this as the holy grail of all writing.

     ROFLMAO!

    Wait, you actually believe that a publically held company can hide data on their products? Even EA, trying to hide the issues with SWTOR have no choice but eventually bring it up in conferrence calls...hell, their last one where they lumped SWTOR in with 2 other games had to release it on paper afterwards.

    When there are public shareholders, they cant hide anything...its the smaller companies that have no public option that CAN withold information.

    Just like you mouthbreathers can deny F2P is making massive money all you want but when a company like Nexon is dropping over 400 million to buyout other companies....reality laughs at you.

    Thus demonstrating that F2P is anything but free to play.  To be making massive money, money has to be being paid by players.  Of course there is another model, one SOE has a patent for, interupting the game with paid advertisments. Fortunately we have not seen that one introduced into the wild yet.

    Personally I am happy to see a variety of pricing models. While I prefer the consistency of a subscription fee and no cash shop other models are equally valid.  Despite the history of bad F2P games and bad P2P games going F2P there is nothing in either model that dictates bad (or good) design and implementation.

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